DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '06 II => Topic started by: Brian on July 09, 2006, 03:55:23 AM
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I know many fans have blamed the Leviathan storyline for the ultimate demise of DS, but having finally re-viewed (meaning I saw both storylines on TV way back in 1969-1970, and also on VHS some years ago via the MPI tapes) those episodes yet again, this time on the DVD releases (and because of this, I'm behind on viewing DVDs by 4 sets!), I find the 1970 PT shows very boring and difficult to get through due, in part, to the overused REBECCA and JEKYLL AND HYDE references. At least the Leviathan story referenced, in part, the weirdness of Lovecraft, whose work was not as well known as DuMaurier and Stevenson, and thus was more fresh. I've decided that I actually prefer the Leviathan story to 1970 PT, as the PT story now (in hindsite, of course), really comes across as an excuse to take the main actors away while they filmed the movie.
That said, at least the PT story sets up the new character of Roxanne, who would be very important in the 1970 summer and subsequent 1840 stories.
Anyone else have thoughts to share?
Brian
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From what I remember I agree with you wholeheartedly. Most parts of Leviathan were a real kick in the pants, while most parts of 1970PT made you want to kick the TV.
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I think by the time they started the Levinthian story it should have been time to cut back on the supernatural time-travel stuff and back to the nuts and bolts Collins family dynamic. I've only seen the Levinthian intro (which angered the heck out of me cause it ended my fav Josette/Barnie) and it came right after 1897 which, as we all know, was just loaded with supernatural references and characters and dark stormy nights. I have nothing against what they accomplished with the supernatural, the lyrical 1795 is still wonderful to me, but DS needed more realism and character development to balance things out.
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You know Brian, it's funny you posted this when you did! I've been watching 1970 PT lately and although I *do* like it, I find it hard to get through at times. And literally just last night I was thinking to myself that Leviathan was WAY better than PT! It was much faster paced and I cared about the characters because they were all the core cast, not these PT folks who I don't really give a damn about. I mean, can Quentin be more of an a-hole and Maggie more of a DOORMAT!? She makes Beth Chavez look like a bra-burner! I don't understand why the hell she doesn't tell Q to take a flying leap of Widow's Hill and then laugh all the way to the bank w/a huge divorce settlement. That man can't get through a freakin' day w/out shouting at someone, usually her! He makes me want to KICK the TV! Quite a statement to David Selby's acting talent because I *love* RT Quentin, but HATE his PT counterpart! Anyway, mainly I just want to plow through the rest of the plotline to get to 1995 and 1970 RT. BTW, I *love* Leviathan, don't know why it's so maligned in fandom. :-
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I don't like either storyline, but I would choose Leviathan over PT because the real time characters are the ones I care about.
I hate the beginning of Leviathan with a passion because I loved 1897 so much and I loathed the transition between the two storylines. Overall, I dislike the Leviathan plot, but it's watchable because it has the characters I love. It also has the return of Dennis Patrick and the return of Willie in its favor. I barely resisted the urge to skip episodes with PT.... I despise both Maggie and Quentin, didn't care at all about Yeager/Cyrus, Angelique made me want to scratch my eyes out, and Roxanne.....ugh. That's the most articulate I can be on that.
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The Leviathin story also had the conclusion of the Quentin/Amanda story, which was wonderful!
And the antique shop scenes had an eerie weirdness to them.
But at the end of the story, nothing came together.
But 1970 PT was a massise misfire.
This story had no connection to DS or the characters we love.
Watching the PT Quentin/Angelique, watching Bruno/Aunt Hannah/Buffy, I felt like I was suddenly watching a different show, an one with no suspense, no atmosphere, and no one to care about.
Still, every soap that ever aired has made mistakes, and most of them recovered.
For 1795 & 1897, DS showed a willingness to take risks and be creative.The result was magical.
Leviathin was another attempt at this that ALMOST worked.
From 1970PT onward, 1995 being the lone exception, DS just repeated itself over and over, and lost it's magic.
1841PT was the last straw, and almost seemed like a deliberate attempt to bury the show for good.
David
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I mean, can Quentin be more of an a-hole and Maggie more of a DOORMAT!? She makes Beth Chavez look like a bra-burner! I don't understand why the hell she doesn't tell Q to take a flying leap of Widow's Hill and then laugh all the way to the bank w/a huge divorce settlement. That man can't get through a freakin' day w/out shouting at someone, usually her! He makes me want to KICK the TV! Quite a statement to David Selby's acting talent because I *love* RT Quentin, but HATE his PT counterpart! Anyway, mainly I just want to plow through the rest of the plotline to get to 1995 and 1970 RT. BTW, I *love* Leviathan, don't know why it's so maligned in fandom. :-
LOL -- yeah it would be hard for him to be more of an ass and her more of a doormat unless you go back to the original Rebecca. PT is kind of fun for me, cause I like trying to spot all the stuff they swiped.
On the other hand, Leviathan is more original, and satisfying. I think a lot of the problem is it suffers in contract with 1897 and its large multilayered story and (mostly) well developed characters. That said, I do remember offhand certain issues in Leviathan which bugged me. Main one that comes to mind is Professor Stokes not being quite up to his usual reasoning standards. And the way Quentin was wasted in that respect -- anyone with his background, not to mention another 70 years bouncing around the world seeking the cure to his curse would have been contributing much more to the supernatural knowledge needed to save the day. I find it very unlikely that given the places and people he would have been encountering trying to remove his curse, he wouldn't have knowledge or contacts with knowledge who could have been contributing to the efforts.
Then again, I'm the warped person who is of the opinion that Professor Stokes would have (shades of Carolyn in Return to Collinwood) have called in his old professor as well -- and I am of the decided opinion that Stokes did his grad work under one Indiana Jones. Of course, given that Quentin might have encountered Professor Jones as well in his peripatetic travels, that could have been quite an amusing scene -- all and sundry trying to pretend they've never met before. >:D
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Watching the PT Quentin/Angelique, watching Bruno/Aunt Hannah/Buffy, I felt like I was suddenly watching a different show, an one with no suspense, no atmosphere, and no one to care about.
I have to agree here. I was just thinking last night, when [spoiler]Barnabas briefly goes back to RT 1970 and has a talk w/Julia about how he MUST go back and help Quentin and Maggie, I was like, "WHY! You don't even know them, how do you know what will happen if you don't go back isnt SUPPOSED to happen?" [/spoiler] Made me want to shake him fiercely! Ah well...
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I was just thinking last night, when [spoiler]Barnabas briefly goes back to RT 1970 and has a talk w/Julia about how he MUST go back and help Quentin and Maggie, I was like, "WHY! You don't even know them, how do you know what will happen if you don't go back isnt SUPPOSED to happen?" [/spoiler] Made me want to shake him fiercely! Ah well...
Barnabas REEEELY needs to learn about the Prime Directive.....
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Barnabas REEEELY needs to learn about the Prime Directive.....
True, but he unfortunately has an incurable NANCY DREW complex!! >:D
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I suppose I'm the only one that likes both Leviathans and 1970PT. In reminiscing about 1970PT would I really have wanted to miss Grayson Hall's Hoffman? Elizabeth Eis as Buffie Harrington? Paula Laurence? Lara Parker? Mr. Trask? Bruno? That scary blue plaid shirt worn by Chris Pennock? PT Carolyn? That liquor serving cart in the drawing room that flips up for drinks? (Imagine having that for the blender parties.) Surely not!
I do have a general tendency to look at the bright side of a storyline instead of seeing it as all bad. I appreciate Dark Shadows. I further appreciate the fact that we have our old, dear show on DVD intact with the exemption of the lost episode. In a throw away society, this is an amazing feat.
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I suppose I'm the only one that likes both Leviathan and 1970PT...That liquor serving cart in the drawing room that flips up for drinks?
Oh, I *like* PT, I just like Leviathan better. And that liquor cabinet is the KOOLEST damn thing I've *ever* seen! I want one for my house BAD!!!! ;)
I further appreciate the fact that we have our old, dear show on DVD intact with the exemption of the lost episode. In a throw away society, this is an amazing feat.
I too think it's amazing that DS has been released to both VHS *and* DVD! No other 'soap' can boast that feat! ;D
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I suppose I'm the only one that likes both Leviathans and 1970PT.
I like them both too. I'm partial to Leviathans over 1970PT because it takes place in the regular time band and features the regular characters we all know and love. But I really enjoyed 1970PT as well.
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Likewise, I enjoy parts of both strorylines quite a bit, and not just because of my "nicksake". I actually think the opening of the Leviathan story is quite good, with the exception of the abruptness of the changeover. I wish we had seen more of the cloaked devotees of the order, and I always liked the look of the altar and the whole creepiness, especially [spoiler] ...when David actually opens and enters a secret hollow within the altar itself.[/spoiler] In PT, I likewise get very tired of PT Quentin's overall insufferableness, and I don't think he and KLS have that much chemistry, especially when compared to David and either Terry Crawford and Kate Jackson. PT Quentin's segments can really drag. I always like the underrated Elizabeth Eis, and this is her best showcase, and the Cyrus/Yaeger is one of the more "adult" storylines. I think they only let the perversitry go further because, well, it was Chris Pennock.
Then again, I am one of the few people who seem to regard "The Haunted Palace" as a better entry in the Corman/Price series than most critics. I watched it again this weekend, and I love the score and it has a better and more expansive supporting cast than most of the series. I still feel it was a film that influenced DS overall, not just "Night of Dark Shadows".
Michael [Ghost00]
Wow, post # 700! :) [/b]
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Cyrus, I also suspect the Corman Poe films had an influence on DS, perhaps even moreso than the Universal and Hammer films. There's a visual style to many of those great Corman Poe films that definitely reminds me of DS at times.
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i'm in the camp that enjoyed both storylines.
while they are both deeply flawed i found enough there to hold my attention.perhaps that each of these storylines lasted for only about three months makes them easy to take.longer and i'm sure i would have lost interest.
there was something visually interesting and atmospheric about each of them.
if i had been an original viewer back "then" and not have seen these storylines coming i'm sure i would have been infuriated.but as a contemporary viewer involved in fandom for a few years i sort of knew what i was in for here and thus didn't have huge expectations.i just took them for what they were worth which isn't to say that while i was actually watching them i wasn't periodically maddened by all the plot inconcistensies and wasted opportunities.
that said in general i much prefer the earlier more "soap opera-ish" part of the show.
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I guess it's no secret that I feel almost exactly the opposite of the original premise of this topic. 1970PT is one of my favorite DS storylines, while Leviathans is probably my least favorite. However, the operative word there is "favorite" - it's not at all that I think Leviathans has nothing to offer. The beginning of the storyline is really something quite wonderful - very atmospheric and moody. It might have been extremely interesting had Curtis stuck to his guns and Leviathans had been allowed to play out the way he might have originally envisioned it instead of everything along with the kitchen sink (::)) having been thrown into it in a doomed effort to reverse the extremely vocally negative fan reaction. The biggest accomplishment of all that was to dilute what had been great about Leviathans and to all too often introduce incoherent and self-contradictory elements into the mix. :( (Other soap producers have had the fortitude to do exactly that when the audiences for their shows have expressed dissatisfaction and those producers have often been greatly rewarded with the eventual outcome once their audiences finally saw how things turned out. But alas, Curtis was ruled by audience response and all too often tweaked the plots accordingly. :- )
But so far as 1970PT goes, I've made several recent posts about the things I really love about it, so I won't repeat myself by going into any of that again. ;) But I will say that one of the things I really enjoy is that it has a cohesive beginning, middle and end - and what I most love about it is how its focus is more deeply rooted in human drama and manipulation. And one of the best episodes to showcase that is Ep #1055, which is featured in today's slideshow. As I posted last year:
... I love Love LOVE Ep #1055! Joe Caldwell's dialogue is absolutely wonderful, running the gamut from the sublime (ANGELIQUE: "You introduced me to the cold of the tomb, Roger Collins. I felt I could do no less for you." and "Peace? I don't want peace! I want his destruction! And I will have it!") to the sort of absurdity that could only make sense and be said with a straight face on a show like DS (BARNABAS (to Anglelique): "In a matter of minutes you are going to be destroyed. But before you go..."), and the suspense is edge of your seat maddening. I remember being absolutely enthralled when I first watched it back on this day in 1970. Would Roger kill Maggie? What would Angelique do to Roger? Would Roxanne speak? Would Angelique be destroyed? Would Maggie shoot Quentin? And even though I now know what's going to happen, the ep still never fails to be a thrill to watch. Ep #1055 definitely ranks as one of my ten most favorite DS eps.
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(BARNABAS (to Anglelique): "In a matter of minutes you are going to be destroyed. But before you go".
This line reminds me of that scene in 1840 when [spoiler]Lamar Trask walls Barnabas up in the wall of his funeral chapel but he's been freed w/the help of Angelique. He presents himself to Trask and absolutely GLOATS over the fact he didn't die. I love it when he says, "I'll see you tomorrow in court Mr. Trask. Goodnight!" and w/a grin on his face so canary-eating you can practically see yellow feathers coming out of his mouth![/spoiler]That whole dialog is something that only makes sense on a show like DS! ;)
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But alas, Curtis was ruled by audience response and all too often tweaked the plots accordingly.
Of course, I can't speak for others soaps of yesteryear, but it's common knowledge that DS was usually (though not always) taped one week before the air date, and it would have been much easier to adjust the story in response to fan reactions than it is nowadays, when soaps (at least ONE LIFE TO LIFE, the only one I watch) are taped as much as 6 weeks before airing.
Also, please don't get me wrong: I don't hate 1970PT--I do like the "bad guys," (Angelique, Hoffman, esp. Timothy Stokes)--but the Jekyll/Hyde was too obvious to me, even in 1970. I didn't know anything about REBECCA back then though (the NODS line about Mrs. Danvers meant nothing to me when I first saw that movie), but now that I've read the book and seen the classic film, the DS version seems more obviously a rip-off than a homage (yes, I know DC admits to "ripping off" the classics, but that's anothetr thread.)
Of course, I could take this in a whole different direction by comparing either of these story lines to 1897--which is my all-time favorite--or the 1840 period, which is second to 1897, to me, anyway. But those are discussion for even yet another thread. [b054]
Brian
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I've posted here so many times about my fondness for Leviathan, but I'm almost as fond of PT 1970. I particularly like the set-up of PT 1970 with the beautifully re-dressed sets and the crisp, fruity dialogue (hmmm makes it sound like granola--aaaanyway), and "Ode to Angelique" makes a great theme for the storyline. I have mixed feelings about the Cyrus/Yeagar storyline, and the haunting of Damian Edwards subplot also does not seem to come off very successfully. But Aunt Hannah makes a great partner in crime for Ange/Lexis when the rest of the gang is out partying at T'town (haha).
When everybody comes back it turns into a wild ride and some of the best episodes in the series, as MB has commented. I really liked the English actor who played the Inspector (although why C'port should have an English police inspector right out of the pages of Aggie Christie is beyond me). Too bad they did not bring him back later on. Probably the weakest elements of the conclusion of the story is the fact that neither Quentin nor Maggie come off as a very attractive characters, nor is Barnabas' motivation in helping them at all well established. But, if you want to watch Dark Shadows, sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy the ride, and there's certainly plenty of great sights along the way on this one.
G.
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I like PT better. Both have good elements, but PT is far more enticing and cohesive. Leviathans falls apart near the end (even though it's got some terrific scenes i.e. Angelique and Nicholas' reunion; Carolyn screaming at Julia that she doesn't want a sedative; Roger's "cheap, insufferable pig" remark; etc.), but it's also less visually appealing than PT: while Leviathans has grimy, dark sets with unattractive costumes (Bruno's hideous fur coat, Angie's tacky hausfrau gowns) and even uglier characters (Sabrina...ugh), PT has bright and airy sets with pretty furniture and flowers which set the mood instantly. Everything's so gauzy and rich and becoming...and superficial. PT feels more like a Gothic soap opera than Leviathans, IMO. And the Rebecca stuff? Personally, after reading the novel, I don't think it's a direct rip off at all. [spoiler]Angie comes back in PT; Rebecca stays dead in Rebecca.[/spoiler]That alone makes a world of difference.
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I didn't think the Leviathan story was all that bad (except for a certain plot twist that I won't go into). It wasn't the best story on the show but it certainly was watchable. Sadly I can't say the same for 1970 PT.....Barnabas was gone for a lot of the story, as was Elizabeth, Roger, Carolyn, Willie, Julia, Maggie (I am aware they were filming House of Dark Shadows at this time). a lot of the characters left to fill the void weren't up to the task. Or maybe I should say the writers. I wasn't crazy about the Jekyll/Hyde story or the Rebecca type-story, they just weren't satisfying to me.
I almost lost interest in the show at this point, but the trip to 1995 for Barnabas and Julia and the Gerard and Daphne haunting story plus 1840 rekindled my interest.
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1970 parallel time was one of my favorite storylines. I have recently finished watching the Leviathan storyline for the first time since it was last aired on the scifi channel and this time I enjoyed it more than I ever have before. Maybe having the DVD's makes a difference, I could sit and watch many episodes in a row rather than two a day and this makes a difference.
When it comes to the parallel time storyline, though I like it a lot, my favorite aspect of it is the lead up. I love the whole concept of opening a door and seeing a different world with the same people living different lives. As a kid I dreamed of such a thing happening and wanted a room in our house to be the parallel time room. I found the whole thing fascinating. Imagine finding yourself there, your own counterpart and seeing what other choices could have been made in your own life.
I liked the atmosphere at Collinwood during parallel time, the brighter sets as someone has mentioned, especially Angelique's room. I love "Angelique's theme," that is one piece of music I never get tired of hearing, not like so many others. I love [spoiler]Quentin as master of Collinwood. I did not like Maggie being a doormat, and like others have said, I wanted to infuse her with backbone. She really needed to stand up to Quentin and to Hoffman and all the others who kept comparing her unfavorably with Angelique. If Quentin had let her know at some point during their courtship how he really felt about Angelique a lot of the grief could have been averted. Certainly in their private moments he could have let her know how he felt about her? This would have helped her overcome what anyone else had to say. She should have stood up to all of them and said, "*I* am the mistress of Collinwood now and Quentin loves me. I may or may not do things as Angelique did. She is gone and I am here, and I am not leaving!"[/spoiler]
It grieved me that when [spoiler]she was kidnapped Quentin didn't lift a finger to help, and if it hadn't been for Barnabas who knows what would have happened to her? Angelique had them continually distrusting each other and believing each other guilty of murder and witchcraft.[/spoiler]
I really liked the character of Buffy and felt it was such a shame she had no self esteem. She should have sent John Yeager packing instead of humbly hoping he still liked her even after [spoiler]he raped her. There is no doubt in my mind that in that one scene he raped her. And then he insulted her by saying he wouldn't take her out since she looked terrible.[/spoiler] I think she and Maggie both deserve a good shaking and a lecture on self respect!
It doesn't bother me that they used the story of Rebecca or Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde for the story, in fact none of these "rip offs" bother me. If anything it makes me more interested to read those books or see those movies because of what DS did with it.
Alondra