DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 I => Topic started by: AndreDuPres on April 22, 2006, 12:17:29 AM
-
I just got Set 23 recently, which features the end of the Summer of 1970 storyline (which is still one of my favourites) and the beginning of 1840, and I've gotten about halfway through the third disk. I haven't seen this storyline since it aired on the Sci-Fi Channel a few years ago, so it's all rather fresh and new to me. Though I remember liking it the first time, I have rather mixed feelings about it now.
Pros:
Beautiful sets, costuming, & props (Ah, Rose Cottage is great!)
Well-balanced makeup use; not too much rouge or lipstick
Generally good hairstyles (though I dislike Daphne's '70ish fall); Samantha's ringlets are pretty, and I actually like Valerie's "Swiss Miss" look
Well-placed music cues and pieces, especially the creepy Judah Zachary theme and sundry new atmospheric tunes
Some stunning performances, most notably Virginia Vestoff as Samantha and Christopher Pennock as Gabriel; their scenes together are riveting
Disturbing, frightening plot with many twists and turns
A nicely realized world with many side characters; people actually have families, and Collinwood doesn't seem as isolated as it does in the present at times
Cons:
Atrocious scripts that are barely coherent
*Poor direction* Scenes just roll quickly into one another making everything a bit jarring to watch
Obscure lighting--sure, it adds to the omnipresent evil theme going on, but I have trouble seeing the action at times
Sloppy writing makes for sloppy, confused plotpoints
Occasional bad/out-of-character acting (e.g., Joan Bennett switching from ditzy and vivacious to matriarchal and Liz-ish within a couple of lines--I don't really blame her, though, for it's probably the director's fault. Also, given these horrible scripts, what else could she have done?)
Overly-derivative characters (Leticia Faye = poor copy of Pansey; Lamar Trask = caricature of all other Trasks) and poorly developed characters ("Valerie," especially: I hate how the writers made her the [spoiler]Angelique from 1795 rather than the Angelique of the present; I mean, we've seen this character develop over time through 1968, 1897, and then the Leviathans that it's almost a crime that we're back to square one again)[/spoiler]Too fast-paced; I can see why people couldn't keep up with the show by this point
All this from just the first 18 or so episodes of 1840. It gets much worse from what I remember...
-
i haven't watched the 1840 storyline yet but i can say this...i don't intend to.not now at least.
i'm currently watching 1970pt.having watched the show from episode one over a period of about four years i'm actually feeling a little burned out at this point.i intend to watch the rest of the 1970rt episodes but after the lengthy trip back to 1897 i really can't handle another time-travel storyline for awhile.especially one that doesn't end with some connection to real time events at collinwood.
recent talk of the 1966 laura collins story makes me want to go back and re-watch that so when i'm done i think i'll try that.
this isn't to say that at some point in the future i might not get a yen for fresh episodes and purchase the 1840 dvd's.
-
Sounds like you've heard a few too many spoilers. 1840 is a half-copy of 1897, but since they appartently couldn't do better at that point, it was a tactic that worked, to get good but not great DS back on the air. Most elements are warmed-over versions of things from 1897 or 1795. But if you can put that out of your mind and you need more historical, atmospheric DS it works. You might want to wait awhile after being burnt out on 1897.
-
There's something about 1840 that hasn't been discussed in any forum or fan publication. It's this: I've always felt that each of the three major trips to the past spotlighted a particular character. 1795 told of Barnabas' past, and 1897 was Quentin's story. But 1840 could've been easily subtitled All About Angelique, for it is in this story that her past (or more accurately her past life as Miranda duVal) is explored as is her destiny in regard to her relationship with Barnabas. There were many juicy scenes for Lara climaxing in that unforgettable final moment with Barnabas. We saw the character at her best and worst in this time period, and it just seems to me that she dominated the events of 1840.
-
Charles Ellis is correct about 1840.
BUT>>>>>>
[spoiler]they didn't bother explaining how the deaths in 1840
of Edith Collins & Angelique~~or the saving of Daphne & 1840 Quentin~~affected established stories from 1897 and 1968-1970.[/spoiler]
Nor did they bother wrapping up half the mysteries they set up in 1995 and Summer 1970.
While the 1840 story was being shot, Frid wanted out, Curtis wanted out, and it showed.
They didn't care anymore.
This did far more damage to the show than the Leviathin story ever could.
1840 and 1840PT was a fiasco.
But these blunders didn't kill DS.
In my view, DS was murdered.
Deliberately.
David
-
I too remember enjoying the hell out of 1840. I'm curious now to get the boxsets to see what my reaction will be upon reviewing.
-
I happen to love both 1840 and 1841PT, but maybe you need to be a pro-Barnabas/Angelique fan or a Lara/Jonathan fan to really get into them. I know people talk about the inconsistensies and stuff with the end of 1840, but a careful reading of the episodes shows this is not totally true.
[spoiler]People have complained about the inconsitency of Barnabas declaring his love for Angelique at the end of 1840, but I think one of the strongest inconsistencies of all is that 1840 Barnabas is released from his coffin and almost immediately says goodbye from Josette. Of course Josette had let Barmabas go when her ghost gave him back his ring in 1970, but remember it is 1840 Barnabas that says such a quick goodbye to Josette, this goes against almost the whole previous show when Barnabas would search for a Josette replacement. Of course maybe being in the coffin for 45 years rather than 175 made him more realistic, but there we are. Of course, the writers had to have him let Josette go anyway due to KLS' having left the show, but we go goodbye Josette, hello Roxanne in about one episode. Of course his relationship in 1840 to Roxanne had more substance than her just being his victim, she at least had some spunk and he did give her some passionate kisses, but this was about the best place we see any chemistry with Barnabas and Roxanne, it was still nowhere compared to the chemsitry JF had with Lara and to a lesser extent KLS.
Okay, so with KLS leaving and Roxanne being staked, that forced the writers to come up with another soulmate for Barnabas, there certainly never was any sexual chemistry with Julia so that left Angelique, his long ago lover from Martinique---
It is correct to say, and even Barnabas says, that never felt he could love Angelique while she still had her selfish ways as a witch. BUT when she lifts his curse, for the first time Angelique asks for no price, just that he try to love her. She does not assume Barnabas loves her, but rather she would like him to try and see if he can develop a love for her, and that is to me what happens. As we see, he gradually comes to realize that he loves Angelique as she loves him, and that comes about when Barnabas realizes she is indeed capable of being selfless and genuinely caring and prove her love for him. I know that after Barnabas tells Julia Trask shot Angelique that Angelique was "his only love", but maybe he is saying there that he now realizes she was his soulmate, but that he never knew it. I do believe that part of the reason Barnabas rejected Angelique in 1840 was that he was scared off by the passionate side of his nature Angelique brought out in him. There is no question that in 1795 Barnabas is attracted to Angelique and is again tempted by her. I do also believe that he loved Josette, but in a pure, almost romanticized way. I think that overall Barnabas is rather repressed, we certainly don't see him tempted to have an affair with any other woman he becomes involed with on the show ( and I am also counting when he is NOT a vampire).[/spoiler]
So that is how I see it, I don't think the end of 1840 is inconsistent if we consider the entire picture...
-
[spoiler]The real "inconsistencies" of 1840 are far more obvious than those mentioned. The refusal of Barney to get back into the box... death of Angeligue... removal of curse in 1840 thus cancelling out BC's very introduction into DS and Collinwood in the first place.... complaining about the other things seems unnecessary. 1840 sticks a great big knife into DS continuity that no one could ever possibly repair. The damage was so deep that they didn't DARE to continue the story in 1971, because they couldn't.
As for BC moving on from Josette... I think it's explained by 170 years or so stuck in a damn box, as opposed to "just" 45. BC just hadn't racked up enough time in that unimaginably hellish situation in 1840, but by 1967, he had stewed long enough to become really psychotic, single-minded, and obsessed. The more abused you are (not that crating BC wasn't necessary), the more divorced you are from the human community, and from identifying with fellow humans, and their standards. You go your own way. Kidnapping and brainwashing starts to seem like a somewhat less crazy idea.
I can buy BC falling for Angelique. A bit of a stretch, but within believability just barely, and a fascinating way to end both of their stories. Of course Angelique is a brutal murderer. So was Barnabas. Their stories and lives were so intertwined over centuries, and so similar, that in the end, each is the only one who can possibly understand the other.
It's actually a great, unconventional, fatalistic statement, about how life is so much more than our narrow little morals allow for.
-
So that is how I see it, I don't think the end of 1840 is inconsistent if we consider the entire picture...
I would agree with that had it not been for one little thing... Barnabas hated Angelique...
[spoiler]He hated her for almost 200 years, but one little good deed out of Angelique in 1840 was suddenly going to erase all of what she had done. I just don't see that. I see him telling her exactly what she wants to hear. So hopefully he want be seeing her again. The fact she died as a human in 1840. Doesn't change the fact that in other time bands she still exists as a witch. So perhaps she knew that her good deed in 1840 would benefit her at some point in a future time. Angelique never did a good deed that didn't benefit her.
Besides how did Angelique lift the vampire curse on Barnabas? The curse on Barnabas in 1840 and the curse on Barnabas in 1970 was two different curses. Had Barnabas returned to 1970. He would have been a vampire again since Angelique wasn't the one who turned him into a vampire again in 1970. The 1970 curse was brought about by the Leviathan's leader Jeb Hawkes.[/spoiler]
Had the show not been canceled. I see Angelique returning as her old evil self. The writer's would have found away around 1840 one way or another.
FireRose
-
BC did not pass through those years from 1840 to 1967 because he became mortal in 1840. Also he never got back into the coffin, but that's a moot point, conisidering the mortality. He couldn't encounter the Leviathans if he never re-entered the Collins family in 1967 in the first place.
I admit ignorance of 1968, but even with Angelique apparently having future knowledge of herself in future times, that doesn't negate the fact that she still needed to pass through those years from 1840 onward, to show up in later years.
Maybe that's why she didn't know her future in 1840. The moment BC went back in time, and started changing things, she no longer had one.
-
Haven't seen those episodes since they aired on Sci-Fi. I remember really enjoying that whole period of the show, except I thought they spent way, way, WAY too much time with the kids trying to figure out what Rose Cottage was. Can't wait until I get up to those DVD sets. I'm still only on 12 :'(
-
[spoiler]The real "inconsistencies" of 1840 are far more obvious than those mentioned. The refusal of Barney to get back into the box... death of Angeligue... removal of curse in 1840 thus cancelling out BC's very introduction into DS and Collinwood in the first place....[/spoiler]
I TOTALLY agree w/this. [spoiler]The fact that a) Barnabas is cured; b) doesn't climb back into the coffin (to be released by Willie in 1967) and c) Angie dying negates EVERYTHING from 1967 on. Barnabas would have died the minute they returned to 1971 since he was mortal from 1840 on, he would have been long dead. And again, if he's no longer a vampire in the coffin in the secret room of the mauseleum, what does Willie *really* find? Jewels most likely, and nothing else, he would have gone back to CW, packed his seabag and split. Unless there was NOTHING in there to begin with. Then there's the matter of Angelique dying in 1840, who is there in 1968 initiating the Dream Curse? How does she, or Barnabas for that matter, end up in 1897 trying to help Quentin? What would have happened was Quentin would have succeeded in 1969 of killing David and forever haunting CW. And don't even get me started on the Leviathan plotline, 1970 PT or even 1840. None of those stories would have existed, at least not the way they played out w/Barny and Angie in the mix.[/spoiler]
-
I would agree with that had it not been for one little thing... Barnabas hated Angelique...
[spoiler]He hated her for almost 200 years, but one little good deed out of Angelique in 1840 was suddenly going to erase all of what she had done. I just don't see that. I see him telling her exactly what she wants to hear. So hopefully he want be seeing her again. The fact she died as a human in 1840. Doesn't change the fact that in other time bands she still exists as a witch. So perhaps she knew that her good deed in 1840 would benefit her at some point in a future time. Angelique never did a good deed that didn't benefit her.[/spoiler]
Had the show not been canceled. I see Angelique returning as her old evil self. The writer's would have found away around 1840 one way or another.
Very true! The only person Angelique cared about was Angelique! She only wanted Barnabas because she knew she couldn't have him, IMHO. And her one "good deed" won't, or at least it SHOULDN'T, [spoiler]make him forget that she killed his entire family (aunt, mother, beloved sister, fiance, uncle). He probably knew she was dying and because they'd put things behind them temporarily to defeat Gerard, he threw her a bone and said he loved her. Either that or he was thinking to himself that if she "died" thinking she'd won at last, she'd stay dead and out of his life.[/spoiler]
If the show had continued on w/Frid agreeing to play Barnabas and we'd stuck w/the family from 1971 rather than have the 1841 plotline, BELIEVE ME, DC would have found a way to bring Lara back as Angelique, and not as a heroine.
-
The thing about Barnabas is that despite everything that happens in 1840/41, Barnabas does somehow still exist in the present because Liz recognizes him in Ep #1198. In fact, very strangely, Liz acts as if Barn, Julia and Stokes had never been gone. Try explaining that away. ;) Though, actually, someone has tried - for The Dark Shadows Concordance 1840, Arthur Warren Oddsson wrote a lengthy (something like 15 page) essay that attempts to reconcile all the supposed inconsistencies. It's much too complicated to try to summarize here, and I'm not sure I agree with all of his theories (though his theories that somehow the I Ching and the Stairway Through Time played parts in correcting Barnabas' existence do make sense), but the essay is an absolutely fascinating read, and it's most defintely something worth checking out if you never have.
-
I have mixed feelings about 1840. I loved certain things about it: Virginia Vestoff, flightly Flora Collins, the disaster that was Edith and Gabriel, but it was really a big old mess by the time it was done. I've read the Oddsson piece and I like certain facets of it. But...well, if everyone needs to fanwank most of arc to make sense out of it, there's a problem. It's not just the problem of explaining 1897 Edith or the resolution of the Barnabas/Angelique story away, it's the whole damn thing.
-
BC did not pass through those years from 1840 to 1967 because he became mortal in 1840. Also he never got back into the coffin, but that's a moot point, conisidering the mortality. He couldn't encounter the Leviathans if he never re-entered the Collins family in 1967 in the first place.
I admit ignorance of 1968, but even with Angelique apparently having future knowledge of herself in future times, that doesn't negate the fact that she still needed to pass through those years from 1840 onward, to show up in later years.
Maybe that's why she didn't know her future in 1840. The moment BC went back in time, and started changing things, she no longer had one.
Yes, but there is one little fact being forgotten...
[spoiler]When Angelique removed the curse in 1840. Barnabas didn't forget about the life he had in 1967-1970. He retained those memories of his future existance. So therefore... Angelique lifting the curse in 1840 didn't change that. If that were the case. His memory of Julia and who she was should have ceased to exist. She should have become a total stranger to him. Which didn't occur. There was still the time travel thing also. Since Barnabas retained his memories of his future existance. I think that changing 1840 wasn't as cut and dry as it seemed. The supernatural was involved. Just because Angelique removed the curse on Barnabas and seemed to die a mortal. Didn't mean it was all as it seemed.
The fact that Angelique was a witch and involved with Satan. I think her powers gave her the ability to jump time and show up in any time band she wished. Without having to travel through the the years as a human would. Just because she was destroyed in 1840. Didn't mean that she still didn't exist in 1860. Angelique seem to denounce her powers and change, but did she really. Angelique liked those powers far to much to just simply not have a back up plan somewhere. Because regardless of what Angelique said. When it came to Barnabas. She would never let another woman have him. I think she did what she did in 1840 simply because it served her purpose for some future plan. To bad they didn't return to 1970 and reveal the twist. Because I know there would have been one.[/spoiler]
When it comes to Dark Shadows and thinking in reality... Reality doesn't work at all.
FireRose
-
You are forgetting that Barnabas had a body in 1970 under the trance of the I Ching. Perhaps Angelique had to bring that body to 1840 and return the 1840 body back to the chained coffin. Then the Barnabas who was cured was in his 1970 body.
That's one way to rationalize how he could be remembered in the present time as it happened "off camera".
I also think she did something similiar in 1897 "off camera".
-
oh my!
now i know i'm not ready to watch this storyline.
at the very least of it if the angelique from 1795 was still alive in 1840 wouldn't she be quite old?or do witches not age like the rest of us?
-
[spoiler]It is correct to say, and even Barnabas says, that never felt he could love Angelique while she still had her selfish ways as a witch. BUT when she lifts his curse, for the first time Angelique asks for no price, just that he try to love her. She does not assume Barnabas loves her, but rather she would like him to try and see if he can develop a love for her, and that is to me what happens.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Everything Valerie/Angelique did at the climax of the 1840 storyline was to secure Barnabas' love. After the curse was lifted and the couple had reconciled, she didn't want to save Quentin and Desmond; she wanted for Barnabas and her to go away together. It took his we-can-never-be-more-than-friends speech to shake her out of her complacency for Quentin's plight. After their conversation, she told his portrait (from RobinV's summary): "'I will do what I can to help Quentin, but what I'm about to do, is really for you, Barnabas, because I love you and I need your love--if I can't prove myself to you this way, then there is no way." Not to mention that saving Quentin and Desmond had the added benefit of dealing with her mortal enemy. Asking someone to try to love you in exchange for a favor is, as you said, still a price; altruism is doing something without regard for your own needs. While her plan risked her personal safety, the girl was desperate to secure his love and as she said, there was no other way.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]As we see, he gradually comes to realize that he loves Angelique as she loves him, ...[/spoiler]
[spoiler]But it wasn't gradual, and that's the biggest problem I have with the end of 1840 When Barnabas cajoled Valerie into helping Quentin and Desmond, he mentioned that the men were going to be executed in 24 hours. And when he professed his love for her, it was for "what you did tonight." So after hating her in 1795, 1968, 1897 and 1840, he not only set aside their history, but he went from being fond of her yet not ever capable of giving her the love she wanted to "I love you" in less than a day![/spoiler]
[spoiler]... and that comes about when Barnabas realizes she is indeed capable of being selfless and genuinely caring and prove her love for him.[/spoiler]
For Barnabas to not see the selfishness in her motives says a lot about his naivete.
-
[spoiler]But it wasn't gradual, and that's the biggest problem I have with the end of 1840[/spoiler]
I think he was merely swept up in the moment after [spoiler]witnessing their look-a-likes Bramwell and Catherine in the PT room[/spoiler]
I don't think it was anything other than an "in the moment" response. Unless, as I said earlier in this thread, that he was trying to throw her a proverbial bone as she died (his compassion for another human being--who happened to be dying--coming through). Or, he was being selfish and trying to get off the hook w/her by having her think he loved her hoping she'd finally leave him alone. 8)
-
I think he was merely swept up in the moment after [spoiler]witnessing their look-a-likes Bramwell and Catherine in the PT room[/spoiler]
That's a great point! Have you noticed how many times love is mentioned in that ep? I love you, you love me, you love him, I don't love him, he loves you, AAAAA! Duh, of COURSE you have, considering how much you love (oops, there it is again ;D) Bramwell and Catherine. And I'm pretty sure that at least one "I love you" comes from Quentin and Daphne in that episode.
What do you suppose was up with Gordon Russell (or was it Violet Wells?) that day? ;)
-
considering how much you love (oops, there it is again ;D) Bramwell and Catherine. And I'm pretty sure that at least one "I love you" comes from Quentin and Daphne in that episode.
True, but then I love Wuthering Heights too. ;)
What do you suppose was up with Gordon Russell (or was it Violet Wells?) that day? ;)
Well, it was episode 1197, but the DS ep guide I have here at the office doesn't list the writer, I'd have to go look in my concordance at home. Was VW still w/the show that late?
-
Well, it was episode 1197, but the DS ep guide I have here at the office doesn't list the writer, I'd have to go look in my concordance at home. Was VW still w/the show that late?
The DS Program Guide lists Gordon Russell, but Wells, though officially gone, continued to write scripts unoffically.
I wonder if one of them is responsible for that horrible Barney song. :P
-
I wonder if one of them is responsible for that horrible Barney song. :P
Which one, there were a couple! ::)
-
Which one, there were a couple! ::)
Oops, sorry. Barney the Dinosaur. "I love you, you love me..." You're lucky to have been spared that phenom, believe me. :D
-
I meant to post sometime ago that I think Luciaphil deserves some sort of word for her use of the term "fanwank" in connection with this storyline.
Genius!
*so not worthy*
G.
-
I caught most of the 1840 episodes and 1840PT the last time the show was aired. Hadn't seem them since 70/71. I had forgotten how incredibly annoyed I was the way the Barn/Angelique story ended. That's one of the things that actually prompted me to write my OWN ending. [angl] Scenes I missed? Didn't you want a scene between Ang and Julia battling over WHOSE method would work best to help BARN? Or realize that they needed to work together? Could you have easily LOST the entire TRIAL? Ew.
And one HAD to wonder what in the world JULIA was up to. A gunshot, yelling, fighting, and Barn bellowing JULIA!!!! It took the next episode before she came wandering down the stairs. (ok, I know it wasn't her day to be on payroll, but still.)
And please. That WHOLE house/estate and NONE of the servants saw Trask sneaking in 'the back way'? Pink slips are in the mail!
-
And please. That WHOLE house/estate and NONE of the servants saw Trask sneaking in 'the back way'? Pink slips are in the mail!
LOL AW! I often wonder how it is that non family members or friends of the family just walk into Collinwood like it was a public place and not a private residence! And at all hours of the night too! Only on a show like DS! ::)
-
On the other hand, Lamar was a regular vistor to Collinwood due to his earlier pursuit of Samantha Collins' sister Roxanne Drew. Therefore if he had been seen by various servants upon entering the estate , they would not think it unsual as he was a family friend. In a historical comparison, the Dallas police didn't give a moment's thought to seeing Jack Ruby on the premises when Oswalsd was about to be moved to another facility- as a local figure with somewhat shady connections including friends on the force, he was a familiar face. Pity no one bothered to check either Trask or Ruby for weapons.....
-
On the other hand, Lamar was a regular vistor to Collinwood due to his earlier pursuit of Samantha Collins' sister Roxanne Drew. Therefore if he had been seen by various servants upon entering the estate , they would not think it unsual as he was a family friend. In a historical comparison, the Dallas police didn't give a moment's thought to seeing Jack Ruby on the premises when Oswalsd was about to be moved to another facility- as a local figure with somewhat shady connections including friends on the force, he was a familiar face. Pity no one bothered to check either Trask or Ruby for weapons.....
Leave it to Charles to put a 'logical' spin on DS, LOL! ;D
-
I just finished Set 23 (yes, it took me longer than usual, but with finals and papers all closing in at once...), and I've concluded that 1840 is indeed quite hit-and-miss. At times I'm positively glued to the screen (usually when Samantha and Quentin and Gabriel are on); at other times I barely manage to get through an episode (all the boring pseudo-scientific stuff with that Head). The dialogue is still mostly poor (I'm not expecting Shakespeare here, but please...! At least live up to past standards!); the characters lack motivation and reason (why, oh, why did Quentin hire Daphne? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!); and there are *so* many continuity problems (esp. in regards to [spoiler]Roxanne becoming a vampire).[/spoiler] However, there are moments of brilliance. Quentin and Samantha's fight over Tad is pure soap opera joy. My new favourite quote: [spoiler]"He's *not* your son!".[/spoiler]
-
1840 is amzeing time period. with the trial of Quentin and Desmond. i think its so kool how [spoiler]Valerie of all people saves them in the end.[/spoiler]that scene is amazeing when the head of zachery lights up. so kool. i dunno and i will never understand why curtis did not like 1840 or the levithins. everything is good except adameve. i like adam until he gets bossy with barnabas then he just gets plain annoying. eve is annoying as well. and the 1995 time period and the ghost of gerard and daphne i dont care for. but 1840 is truly amazeing. my fav John Karlen character is desmond and kendrick.
Evan Hanley
-
i really loved 1840 (even minus Don) but i really believe Barnabas never loved
Angelique it was a pure lust thing (and i'm not knocking those >:D)that died
out
jennifer