DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 I => Topic started by: michael c on April 16, 2006, 05:57:19 PM
-
as i near the completion of the series i must say that barnabas collins is something of a randy and often fickle fellow.
now of course we all know that josette collins was his "one great love".this was one for the ages.
josette was played by kathryn leigh scott.so when the show travels back and forth in time and the various storylines unfold one of two things happen between barnabas and whatever character kls was playing at that particular time:
a.)barnabas pursues the character with an obsessive,manic,often violent fervor(1967 maggie evans,1897 kitty hampshire).
b.)barnabas persues the character in a sort of weak,half assed way because she reminds him of josette but it never really goes anywhere(1897 rachel drummond,1970 maggie,1970pt maggie).
so supposedly josette's the one.but i'm currently watching 1970pt and the minute roxanne appears on the slab with a red shag and a bullet bra he's smitten.ignoring all rationality in the situation and the advice of his good friend dr.julia hoffman he decides that simply based on her beauty this creature must be brought to life.
let's not forget either that for a long time victoria was the apple of his eye.and at some point in 1840 he tells angelique that she was always the "one he loved".
all the while the good doctor's obvious affections go all but ignored.
this was one fickle vampire. :P
-
Dear mscbryk,
Yes, as a Dark Shadows fan of a "certain" age, I hear what you are saying about Barnabas' rather unfortunate "fickleness." (Or does Barn actually suffer from a really bad case of romantic "capriciousness"?).
In any event, I think we all have to realize, that after being cooped-up in that "musty" coffin for so many years, it just may have adversely effected (affected?) Mr. B.'s "better" judgment in affairs-of-the-heart.
So, trying to vainly remain "hip" and "with-it" in today's "contemporary scene," I like to think of the fickle, "love-'em-and-leave-'em" Mr. Barnabas Collins, as Dark Shadows own modern-day "answer" to, say, George Clooney, or, perhaps, even better still, the infectiously-appealing Ashton Kutcher-Moore (?)!!!
Happy Easter,
Bob the Bartender, still pining over "the woman," the timelessly-divine Ms. Mapes! [love7] [gorgeous] [cryg]
-
Josette's the woman he holds every other woman to for most of the show. Maggie, Rachel, Kitty and Victoria all remind him in either looks (Maggie, Rachel, Kitty) or personality (Victoria) of Josette. Kitty's a different case because she actually was the re-incarnation of Josette. It's just a shame they went about it like a possession instead of the way it was supposed to be. It's obviously all about Josette with these women and Josette only, with one exception - Victoria. A very good argument can be made that he loved Victoria by the time she left the show, and not because of her similarity to Josette. He let her go because she was happy with Peter.
That leads us to Roxanne, which I don't get. With the others, it was Josette. His relationship with Victoria was built up over time to become much more than just Josette and IMO, it works well. It's believable. With Roxanne, however, it's just magically supposed to be there. It's very similar to Quentin & Amanda Harris. I was half expecting him to recite "I'll Be With You Always" to her while they danced. :-X There's no build up or development, it's just suddenly there. And that doesn't work. It didn't work with Quentin and it didn't work with him.
Only one left - Angelique. I felt his declaration in 1840 was way, way out of character. I couldn't believe a word of it. For me it was just a way for the writers to tie up the storyline to change everything to PT and the characters suffered for it. Him telling her that he'd forgiven her - perhaps in the hope it might give her peace - would have been much more believable and a lot more powerful. Best of all, it wouldn't have belittled so many people he loved (Josette, his family in 1795, Victoria...etc - honestly, that's what bothers me most of all).
*Ducks flying brandy glasses*, ;) In the last year of the show, it seemed to me that character development had kind of fallen by the way side, and the plots dictated everything. I think Roxanne, and most definitely Angelique, were out of character for Barnabas.
-
I honestly don't think Barnabas' fickleness was character driven but actor driven as Jonathan Frid became a sex symbol of sorts and since Josette was long dead by the 60's, they had to pair him up with all the hot dames to satisfy the public. Or, at least they felt they had to. Leaving him with Josette would have been just as sexy (my opinion anyway).
-
With Roxanne, however, it's just magically supposed to be there. It's very similar to Quentin & Amanda Harris.
OMG! I *totally* agree w/this! I mean, Quentin was *crazy* about Beth, then all the sudden there's Amanda and he's crazy for her. I was like, "What the f*%#?!!" [hdscrt]
-
With Roxanne, however, it's just magically supposed to be there. It's very similar to Quentin & Amanda Harris.
OMG! I *totally* agree w/this! I mean, Quentin was *crazy* about Beth, then all the sudden there's Amanda and he's crazy for her. I was like, "What the f*%#?!!" [hdscrt]
I agree with those sentiments exactly.
-
I've always believed that Barnabas's problems came from his innate fickleness (is there such a word). Who knows, had he been more open and honest with both Josette and Angelique...well then, we wouldn't have had a series. One the whole, I think Jonathan had real sparks with both Lara and KLS, and to a lesser degree with Alexandra. That's why the Barn/Josette/Angelique triangle is both believable and intriguing. [92c5] The Barnabas/Roxanne thing isn't as natural and therefore has that obvious veneer of contrivance. I like Donna and I think some of her best moments were actually Roxanne telling Trask to bugger off.
Quentin was more natural as a skirt chaser. I think Quentin/David had a much better onscreen chemistry with Beth/Terry than Amanda/Donna and definitely than Laura/Diana, and I think that's why we feel Beth's hurt so deeply. In 1840, I think Quentin/David had a good chemistry with Daphne/Kate, which also made us feel stronger about their sticky triangle with Samantha, who as played by Virginia Vestoff was definitely one of the series best performances, so you can feel there would have once been that early 19th romance novel passion that had grown as cold as a search for the north pole. [tearyeyed]
Michael [/color]
-
There's a line in a movie that makes me think of Barnabas. It's some British flick (Peter's Friends maybe?) Kenneth Branagh says it to a female character who's got a new boyfriend every time you turn around. He's talking to her and he says something to the effect of "You're in love with romance."
I don't know that Barnabas really loves a lot of the women he's paired with. I think he's in love with the romance of it all. I mean, you look at his parents. You look at his aunt. You look at the shipyard (okay, the idea of the shipyard). There's not a lot of romance in his life. Hell, it's a time when romance was the province of poets and ladies' novels. You married because it was a good match, not because you loved the person. That's what the engagement is all about to Andre and Joshua. It's pure coincidence as far as they're concerned that he happens to be in love with Josette. I guess what I'm getting at is that romance is his way of escaping all of that.
It gets to be a habit with him. And then I think the addiction to drama takes over...
-
i wonder if perhaps in intoducing roxanne the writers were simply trying to take the show in a new direction.
after all there are only so many characters played by kathryn leigh scott that barnabas could fall in love with.i think that after kitty hampshire that part of the storyline was played out.his "fondness" for maggie post-1897 was weak at best.it just never really went anywhere.
it's true that quentin was more the "skirt chaser" in the classic sense.perhaps that was the wrong choice of phrase for barnabas but you know how it is when one just fires off at the keyboard.
the onscreen chemistry between quentin and beth was very compelling.i was stunned when quentin randomly picked amanda harris and deeply saddened by beth's unfortunate fate.
-
It gets to be a habit with him. And then I think the addiction to drama takes over...
ROTFLMAOPIMP!!!!!!! I love this! Too funny! It also happens to be TRUE! LOL! ;) Our beloved Vampire/Anti-Hero IS a drama queen! ;D
I too think he's "in love with love". He had so little of it as a child, that's plain. I mean, I'm sure Naomi showed her love for him (when she was SOBER that is), in fact, doesn't Joshua accuse her of "coddling" him as a boy? I can't remember, been awhile since I've watched 1795. Hell, you'd think I had it MEMORIZED as much as I love it--sheesh! ::)
Anyway, I digress....certainly Joshua never showed any love to him, until [spoiler]the end when he promises to put a stake through his heart at dawn[/spoiler] and Abigail, well...someone just needed to pony up and give her some! God knows it wouldv'e wiped the sour look off her face, LOL!
-
after all there are only so many characters played by kathryn leigh scott that barnabas could fall in love with.
LOL! God you guys are on a ROLL tonight! I died on this one! And I ain't even drinking tonight! ;)
-
I think CyrusL hit the nail on the head...I think it was the chemisty Jonathan had in spades with Lara and to a lesser degree with KLS that made the Angelique/Josette/Barnabas triangle so intriguing--the Roxanne thing was indeed forced, except for maybe in 1840, and to me you could definitely notice the age difference between Jonathan and Donna Wandrey, where to me it was not noticable at all with Lara or depending on the character, with KLS....
-
I think CyrusL hit the nail on the head...I think it was the chemisty Jonathan had in spades with Lara and to a lesser degree with KLS that made the Angelique/Josette/Barnabas triangle so intriguing--the Roxanne thing was indeed forced, except for maybe in 1840, and to me you could definitely notice the age difference between Jonathan and Donna Wandrey, where to me it was not noticable at all with Lara or depending on the character, with KLS....
Very true! Jon had great chem w/KLS and even better chem w/LP, especially during 1841 PT--oh my, my! Were they HOTTT together as Bramwell & Catherine or what??!! ;) His chem w/KLS was more on the "sweet" side, particularly during 1795 and yes, during that plotline the age difference seems minimal to me, but in 1897 when she's Rachel, it seems there's more of a gap. Haven't REALLY seen the end of 1897 yet so can't comment on Kitty/Barnabas.
-
one more thought.
on viewing the further progression of this storyline i cannot believe how inconsistent and out-of-the-blue the romance between barnabas and roxanne was.i totally do not buy it.
when barnabas cried out to roxanne through the flames of the parallel-time room i thought i was going to barf. [puke]
-
I've always believed that Barnabas's problems came from his innate fickleness (is there such a word). Who knows, had he been more open and honest with both Josette and Angelique...well then, we wouldn't have had a series. One the whole, I think Jonathan had real sparks with both Lara and KLS, and to a lesser degree with Alexandra. That's why the Barn/Josette/Angelique triangle is both believable and intriguing
It's hard to tell just WHAT Barnie's problem was sometimes. I do agree somewhat that Barnabas tended to be a romantic and was "in love with love". I also think he viewed women as either bad or lustful (Angelique) or good and ethereal (Josette). Because the youthful Barnabas was played by a man over 40 with great deep soulful eyes, it's hard to see him as just plain "young and immature" and I view 1795 Barnabas as exactly that. Pretty ordinary with guys in their early 20's and nothing unusual, except he show an unusual insensitivity, stupidity and poor judgment in choosing his fiancees' maid for his bed romp.
As far as the chemistry goes. KLS youth hindered her orginal performance as Josette and though she had some touching moments and random magical scenes with Frid, many of their scenes were forced, in my opinion. I think she either didn't understand the magnitude of her role or was too immature to cope with the intensity that was needed for Josette. LP was already 30 I think, better educated and had a superb grasp of Angelique, her motivations and her scenes with Frid seemed more like a meeting of equals. Also, storywise - because of the youth of both Barnabas and Josette and the innate reserve of Josette, the Josette/Barnabas pairing really needed more time to develope and grow. Absolutely were they not given enough screen time to blossom. As we all know, no sooner did they all get together was Angelique knocking on Barnie's door and going at it. 1895 Kitty/Josette/Barnabas was more successful as far as chemistry goes, KLS seemed more comfortable as Josette and I was very happy with their delicate chemistry. But, again, that whole triangle was not given enough screen time and was abruptly and ridiculously cut short by the Levinthian thing.
-
I think it was one thing to learn how to use in-door plumbing and talk on a telephone, and quite another to re-learn how to be with women. In the 18th century, a man of Barnabas' station knew that there were women one married and women one "enjoyed", and all other females of the species were outside his concern.
In the 20th century, there were hardly any rules for him to understand at all. Add to that his bred-in-the-bone belief that he was "better" than ordinary men, and you had one very confused, out-of-his-element man who couldn't behave the way he was taught, and wouldn't behave the way he was now expected to.
I haven't repeated this heresy in a while, so for the newer members let me say it again: I loathe the character of Barnabas. But even I have to have a shred of sympathy for the man when it came to understanding the 20th Century woman. ::)
-
Add to that his bred-in-the-bone belief that he was "better" than ordinary men, and you had one very confused, out-of-his-element man who couldn't behave the way he was taught, and wouldn't behave the way he was now expected to.
Barnabas is by far my favorite character but I love this insightful description. I totally concur that the aristocratic Barnabas felt he was better than the ordinary folk, being a Collins and all. This revealed itself when talking to Jeremiah's grave how they "laughed at the ...something (forget exactly what) of others ... but what fools we turned out to be". I just wonder, though, how and what he was taught? I can't imagine that Joshua taught him anything that wasn't business related and what exactly did his mother teach him? Maybe he developed his attitude in his exclusive boarding school or just by being in his upscale society.
-
This revealed itself when talking to Jeremiah's grave how they "laughed at the ...something (forget exactly what) of others ... but what fools we turned out to be".
The line was, "How we laughed at the idiocy of others". One of my all time favorite scenes btw, and a favorite line of dialog as well. ;)
Maybe he developed his attitude in his exclusive boarding school or just by being in his upscale society.
I suspect he got his attitude, such as it was, in a snooty boarding school and just hanging out w/the upper crust. But still, as snobbish as he was, he was more "down to earth" than most men of his station (certainly more than his pop) IMHO. He seems to waiver between the two--some days he's a stuck up ass, others he's a really nice, down-to-earth regular guy. Another reason I find him so fascinating, and hard to completely hate. Although some days I want to kick his ass-particularly the way he sometimes talks to Julia. Just watched the episode where she [spoiler]goes back to 1897 to help him and he's YELLING at her when she says they should return to 1969 because they've prevented Quentin's death and saved David. He didn't have to yell at her, he could have calmly, but FIRMLY if he felt it necessary, said he was staying because they still needed to help Chris in the future. He INSISTS she stay as well, I would have preferred if he'd said, nicely, "Julia, I *must* stay to help Chris too, and I'd really like you to stay w/me and help me. But I won't force you, if you want to return, go ahead." When he yells at her I want to reach through the TV and bitch-slap the back of his head![/spoiler]He so infuriates me sometimes! And she LETS him! Even worse....Okay, got that off my chest! [82b5] [Rant_Emote]
-
But still, as snobbish as he was, he was more "down to earth" than most men of his station (certainly more than his pop) IMHO. He seems to waiver between the two--some days he's a stuck up ass, others he's a really nice, down-to-earth regular guy. Another reason I find him so fascinating, and hard to completely hate.
I agree with this too. What is so baffling and, I guess I can use the word, fascinating (and I'm not sure if this is due to Frid's performance or not) is that, at least before he became a vampire - (I always see Barnabas as before and after vampire, as I think he obviously changed for the worse after he became one, even during the periods he was human again) is the contradictions between some of his actions (the fling with Angelique was unbelievably stupid and callous) and how gentle and warm his voice, expressions and mannerisms could be. Also, Frid's sad brown eyes tended to create sympathy for the character, even when he's a creep. But, in any case, I think the tragedy of Barnabas is that he picked the wrong woman to toss around and paid three-pence for his faults and stupidity and thus his saga began.
-
I think it was one thing to learn how to use in-door plumbing and talk on a telephone, and quite another to re-learn how to be with women. In the 18th century, a man of Barnabas' station knew that there were women one married and women one "enjoyed", and all other females of the species were outside his concern.
In the 20th century, there were hardly any rules for him to understand at all. Add to that his bred-in-the-bone belief that he was "better" than ordinary men, and you had one very confused, out-of-his-element man who couldn't behave the way he was taught, and wouldn't behave the way he was now expected to.
You know, one of the biggest problems with the '91 revival is that Ben Cross played those notes of the character over and over, like those days when you can't get a bad song out of your head. But unlike Frid, he didn't know how to balance Barnabas with sufficient sympathy. I think stefan is right that Frid comunicated so much of the character within his eyes.
Michael [blackbat]
-
You know, one of the biggest problems with the '91 revival is that Ben Cross played those notes of the character over and over, like those days when you can't get a bad song out of your head. But unlike Frid, he didn't know how to balance Barnabas with sufficient sympathy. I think stefan is right that Frid comunicated so much of the character within his eyes.
I have to agree w/this. Again, I've said it before, but for the benefit of any newbies, Frid did a lot of acting w/his eyes, and he does have that 'sad, puppy-dog look' about him in those eyes too. Ben Cross played Barnabas I think the way DC had originally intended for Frid to play him on the old show, and that's why I couldn't care less for the '91 Barny. No hint of a 'reluctant vampire' in his performance. It's been said before by many of us that if Frid had played Barnabas the way DC had envisioned, he indeed would have been staked w/in 13 weeks and the show probably wouldn't have lasted through the end of '67.
-
except he show an unusual insensitivity, stupidity and poor judgment in choosing his fiancees' maid for his bed romp.
Actually, as I recall it, and someone correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't watched 1795 in a while, Barnabas 'dallied' w/Angelique BEFORE he even met Josette. I seem to recall him saying to Angie something to the effect that he did have a good time w/her, but then he met Josette and he knew she was the one for him. Now, having said this, I have no illusions that had he never met Josette he'd have ended up w/Angelique. I mean, she was a MAID for god's sake, WAY below his socially acceptable idea of a wife. But let's face it, we don't have enough information about their fling to know if he strung her along w/promises of marriage, or at the very least, continuing the affair after he married Josette. He may indeed have made empty promises to her in which case maybe he got just what he deserved. But I kind of got the feeling that after Josette entered the equation, he completely broke it off w/Angelique w/no promises. If this indeed was the case, she really has no reason to be pissed at him if he promised her nothing. I'm SURE he didn't point a loaded musket at her head to get her into bed and she WAS a consenting adult was she not? Just my two cents... ;D
-
Actually, as I recall it, and someone correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't watched 1795 in a while, Barnabas 'dallied' w/Angelique BEFORE he even met Josette. I seem to recall him saying to Angie something to the effect that he did have a good time w/her, but then he met Josette and he knew she was the one for him. Now, having said this, I have no illusions that had he never met Josette he'd have ended up w/Angelique. I mean, she was a MAID for god's sake, WAY below his socially acceptable idea of a wife. But let's face it, we don't have enough information about their fling to know if he strung her along w/promises of marriage, or at the very least, continuing the affair after he married Josette. He may indeed have made empty promises to her in which case maybe he got just what he deserved. But I kind of got the feeling that after Josette entered the equation, he completely broke it off w/Angelique w/no promises. If this indeed was the case, she really has no reason to be pissed at him if he promised her nothing. I'm SURE he didn't point a loaded musket at her head to get her into bed and she WAS a consenting adult was she not? Just my two cents...
My Barnabas illusions would like to believe this but according to 1795 (don't know if there are other stories circulating around re that time period like books etc) Barnabas knew both of them at the same time while visiting Martinigue. He struck a friendship with Josette and apparently was interested in her right from the start but Josette, as a more reserved type who didn't understand her own mind, was friendly but distant. Looks like there was no engagement or physical relationship between them. Meanwhile, apparently, Barnabas, believing Josette really didn't care for him, or was not going to marry him, had a sexual fling with Josette's maid, Angelique, who probably set out immediately to seduce him as was her nature. Angelique freely admitted that she tried to seduce Josette's suitors though I do believe Angelique did care for Barnabas in her own twisted way. After Barnabas left Martinique, Josette and Barnabas started to write and it is through their letters that the relationship developed. Josette realized she loved him and eventually agreed to marry him. Though, we also later learn, in 1795, that Josette actually loved him the moment she saw him but, as she admitted to the Countess Duprey, but I guess didn't realize it. I think that's the real scoop.
-
Actually, as I recall it, and someone correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't watched 1795 in a while, Barnabas 'dallied' w/Angelique BEFORE he even met Josette. I seem to recall him saying to Angie something to the effect that he did have a good time w/her, but then he met Josette and he knew she was the one for him.
What Barn said about it when Angelique dropped by his room during her first night in America was, "I didn't know that we were going to be married then. To be honest, I thought I was in love with Josette but I didn't realize she was in love with me. But now that we've written ... well, you and I... It's impossible."
-
The Forum's Help feature shows ways to quote a post. It also mentions that using only the BB code when quoting does not provide any additional info (author, date, time, etc.) about the quotation. Iif the quote's author isn't obvious, the response really should at least include who said it. Fortunately, these codes were added quite some time ago by the SMF developers:
[quote author=username]TEXT[/quote]and [quote author="Username"]TEXT[/quote]
The above show up as:
TEXT
and
TEXT
If a poster prefers to type their own code instead of using the Quote or Insert Quote buttons, either of the alternatives will alleviate the need for the mods to find the original post and modify the response so that the quote is attributed to its author. Thanks! :)
-
I think stefan is right that Frid comunicated so much of the character within his eyes.
I have to agree w/this. Again, I've said it before, but for the benefit of any newbies, Frid did a lot of acting w/his eyes, and he does have that 'sad, puppy-dog look' about him in those eyes too. Ben Cross played Barnabas I think the way DC had originally intended for Frid to play him on the old show, and that's why I couldn't care less for the '91 Barny. No hint of a 'reluctant vampire' in his performance. It's been said before by many of us that if Frid had played Barnabas the way DC had envisioned, he indeed would have been staked w/in 13 weeks and the show probably wouldn't have lasted through the end of '67.
And I would have to agree too. Jonathan Frid has that amazing ability to really emote with his eyes and facial expressions. As much as I enjoy the '91 series, I do agree that Ben Cross does not share this ability, nor did I ever once share the sympathy for his Barnabas that I do with Frid's Barnabas. Two totally seperate animals.
-
Okay, I'm gonna do a "180" on my statements that Barnabas was an upper crust snob. I'm remembering now that really, we got TWO different Barnabas'. The first one, pre-1795, we got mean, creepy, cruel Barnabas, who thought NOTHING of destroying Maggie or anyone else who got in his way. Then we go back to 1795 and we get sweet, sensitive, cute as a bug's ear Barnabas who's kind to everyone. Hell, he probably went out of his way NOT to steps on bugs, LOL! This is the Barnabas who's devastated by what he thinks is Josette's and Jeremiah's betrayal.
Even when Vickie comes back to 1968, he's "different" from the jerk we saw prior to 1795 who sent Dave Woodard's ghost after Julia etc...True, he's got a definate EDGE to him, and killing is easier for him, especially when he's under the curse again (1897 etc...) but he's a NICE vampire! I just watched the ep in Leviathan where [spoiler]he tells Willie he's free to go live his life and to not worry about him and his problems. He's VERY sweet to Willie, almost like Willie's his younger brother or something. It really was a nice scene for John and Jonathan to play too.[/spoiler]
-
barnabas is still a meanie for a few episodes immediately following 1795.in particular he does one infuriatingly inconsistent thing...
[spoiler]he bites vicki.something even "mean" early barnabas couldn't bring himself to do.it was an integral part of the plot.[/spoiler]
we don't really get "nice" barnabas again until he and vicki get into the car crash and he is treated by dr.lang.
-
Michael/Cyrus... the remark about a repeated bad song you can't get out of your head was great.
Barnabas was relatively egalitarian as regards Ben. I mean, he treated him as a person when no one else did. I don't have tapes for 1795 after BC "dies". But up until then, BC's empathy and humanity reached the point of innocence, and became heartbreaking. "Brink of death?!" I think was the line. A bit of residual upper-classedness doesn't take away from his basic nature as an achingly good person, to me.
-
Only one left - Angelique. I felt his declaration in 1840 was way, way out of character. I couldn't believe a word of it. For me it was just a way for the writers to tie up the storyline to change everything to PT and the characters suffered for it. Him telling her that he'd forgiven her - perhaps in the hope it might give her peace - would have been much more believable and a lot more powerful. Best of all, it wouldn't have belittled so many people he loved (Josette, his family in 1795, Victoria...etc - honestly, that's what bothers me most of all).
*Ducks flying brandy glasses*, ;)
I just BOUIGHT those glasses too!!! Oh well. They gave their lives for a good cause...
Judy [angl]