DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
Members' Mausoleum => Calendar Events / Announcements '25 I => Topic started by: Uncle Roger on November 20, 2022, 12:47:06 AM
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An interesting listing popped up on Amazon called Darker Shadows. It's a 52 page outline for a proposed DS revival from the late 1980's. It was rejected by Dan Curtis and seems to be different than the NBC series. The two authors listed are Lisa Morton and Scott Young. Their names mean nothing to me. But the cover also credits Ron Sproat, Violet Welles and Joseph Caldwell. However, it does mention Sam Hall, Gordon Russell or Art Wallace.
The price is relatively inexpensive, so I may just have to order it.
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Yes, Scott Young proposed that as a direct sequel to the original series. There's a whole interview with Young in one of the DS Files books. I'd scan and post it if it wasn't for the fact that it's packed away while I'm having the ceiling replaced in my office because of a leak. But after the work is done (and I have no idea when that will be - Contracters!! [hall2_rolleyes]) I'll scan/post it...
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Sounds fascinating. Looking forward to the interview, MB, and your opinion of the outline if you purchase it, Unc.
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Lisa Morton is a past president of the Horror Writers Association, a renowned expert on Halloween traditions and lore, and manager of the Iliad Bookshop in Hollywood that was recently firebombed. I can't believe I never heard of this project! I've been seeing her at local meetings and gatherings over the past five years. That would have been something to chat about.
ProfStokes
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I'm pretty sure Lisa Morton's name doesn't come up at all in the DS Files interview and that Uncle Roger's post is the first time I'd ever heard of her involvement. But then maybe she didn't come onboard the project until after the interview was done.
Scott Young's interview is really quite interesting because he laid out exactly what he wanted to do, why he wanted to do it, and what original DS storylines he was going to ignore. Though it never surprised me that the project never went anywhere because DC didn't give him the rights. DC had always said that no one would ever revive DS unless it was him, he wasn't in any frame of mind to revive DS when Young proposed the project, and I'm sure we all remember how hard Brandon Tartikoff had to work to persuade DC to revive DS for NBC.
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I too hadn't heard of this project before, so looking on Amazon and seeing it was only like $6.30 + tax, I was like why not.
At only around 50 pages, it's a quick easy read but has lots of interesting tidbits. It's basicalliy in 3 parts ... the first is a short description of each of the characters. Part 2 is a short projected outline for first season of 21 episodes and a cliffhanger. Part 3 might actually be the most interesting ... it's copies of correspondence from various DS writers and DS alumni with some suggestions and what their level of interest in participating might be if the project goes beyond the development stage.
Without giving too much away, the project includes some original characters with some new characters mixed in. it would have taken place nearly 20 years later after the original show ended. Prolly more along the lines of what Mark Perry is/was attempting to do with his interpretation a la DS Next Generation rather than what DC ultimately did only 3 years later ... a big budget retelling of the original DS.
I do believe had this project come to fruition, it was with the intent to bring back original actors. An example was Quentin not being involved in the story due to David Selby being committed to Falcon Crest at the time but that Quentin could be brought back later on. Also, a way was thought out to age Barnabas somewhat just in case Frid was willing to participate. Angelique was a major character in this reboot, so goes without saying, they would have wanted Lara Parker.
Won't give any more away, but do think it is a worthwhile addition to my DS collection.
P.S. The cover art is pretty cool ... It's a drawn reinterpretation of the House of Dark Shadows movie poster.
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Prolly more along the lines of what Mark Perry is/was attempting to do with his interpretation a la DS Next Generation rather than what DC ultimately did only 3 years later ... a big budget retelling of the original DS.
That's because Scott Young wanted the rights to DS without DC's direct involvement, whereas the '91 DS totally involved DC's direct involvement and DC insisted the only way to bring DS back was to retell the original Barnabas story. And look how many times he used or tried to use that: the '91 series, the proposed film(s) based on the '91 series, a Fox pilot script, and he even wanted the potential WB series to adhere closely to it but he was outmaneuvered by John Wells and Mark Verheiden in that case.
P.S. The cover art is pretty cool ... It's a drawn reinterpretation of the House of Dark Shadows movie poster.
Though those drawings don't particularly flatter most of the character, do they?! [hall2_wink]
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Here's the interview with Scott Young from the DS Files Magazine mentioned by MB. I remember being intrigued by this back when I first read the interview in the 80's. There's a followup piece in one of the other DS Files which mentions the project didn't pan out and provides some details from the proposal, which I assume must have come from this treatment being offered on Amazon.
Here's the Scott Young interview...
(https://i.imgur.com/4lteejT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/30mmqrt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9ZRrUF7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1c6OAlJ.jpg)
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And here's the followup article...
(https://i.imgur.com/Z5VylaQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RtemNU3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g0hsq8k.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zCPCJCb.jpg)
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Thanks so much for posting the articles, PennyDreadful. [hall2_smiley] At the rate my ceiling repair is moving (it's at a complete standstill), who knows when I would have been able to get to it?! [hall2_rolleyes] [hall2_angry]
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Thanks for posting this. Very interesting.
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Received my copy of Darker Shadows. It's a very interesting read. Scott Young was an old friend of Jim Pierson, which explains how it got as far as it did.
The story picks up approximately twenty years after the Leviathan era. It ignores parallel time and all that came afterwards, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The most important developments are that Maggie has remained at Collinwood as Elizabeth's personal assistant/companion and David has married and left Collinsport.
Angelique seems to be the central character here. She has been sent back to hell for some reason. She returns to Collinwood with vengeance on her mind and her first target is Elizabeth. She is abetted by a sexy, swarthy chsrnamed Anton Rakosi who may or may not be related to Magda and Sandor.
Maggie is attracted to a new employer at the cannery named Seth Martin. In an earlier draft, he was called BEN Martin which was just a little too cutesy. Seth is as nice a guy as Joe Haskell but, like all good Collinsport residents, he suffers from a curse. He turns into something that sounds like The Creature of The Black Lagoon. The only way to rid himself of the curse is to make the devil a counter offer.
David returns to Collinwood with his wife Susan, who functions as the ingenue here. The family likes Susan who is promptly seduced by Anton.
That's the basic set up for the first season. Definitely intriguing. But there are some continuity glitches that stick out. When we last saw Angelique in the present, she was Mrs. Rumson. She had become an acquaintance of the Collins family, if not an actual friend. Her utter ruthlessness needs to be explained better. A lot can happen in 20 years but everyone now seems to know the truth about Angelique and Barnabas.
And what about Barnabas? He's there but definitely a supporting character.
Most of the core cast appeared to be interested in signing on. They would need to recast David of course. But even Alexandra Isles expressed an interest, depending on the script.
But I think that the new characters would need to be played by recognizable tv names. DS alumni might not be enough to pull big ratings. Young William Devane would have the right amount of menace and sex appeal to play Anton. And Pamela Sue Martin or Heather Locklear would work as Susan.
Other characters would include Dr. Melissa Stokes, the daughter that no one knew about. She takes the place of Eliot and Julia, at least in the beginning. There's also Armand, a white magician who is an ally against Angelique. The char description describes him as black but he sounds like a possible place holder for Quentin..
It's certainly an interesting set-up and it's nice to see an attempt to do something different.
The cover lists Diana Millay as a contributor. But, aside from a brief statement (My son is not an alcoholic!), I don't know what other input she had.
As Patrick mentioned earlier, the letters from the original staff and actors are great reading. TLATKLS wrote a brief sentence about the project and a paragraph touting Scrapbook Memories. The response from Sam Hall came from attorney Richard Blumenthal who later became the Attorney General here in Connecticut.
The big mystery is why it took so long to find out about this. It has a copyright of 2016 but wasn't printed until this year. Legal matters, I suppose.
It's on Amazon and it's reasonably priced. I do recommend it.
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Interesting. Thanks for posting all this.
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Hi everyone...
It's a little strange to find out people have been discussing and writing about something I worked on so long ago. This same sort of thing happened a few years ago when I learned an unproduced TV script I wrote had been the topic of much discussion and writing for nearly 20-years. And now, last year I was contacted by a writer about this old Dark Shadows proposal and I happen across this forum to learn things like Darren Gross was looking to contact me over 20-years ago, and this proposal has been the topic of much discussion. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great! And I appreciate the fact that something I had my hands in has sparked so much interest, especially since I thought it was a completely dead topic. So, I've gone through this thread and have answered some of your specific questions and comments.
Specific replies:
Mysterious Benefactor: Regarding Reply #4, Lisa Morton isn't mentioned in the DS Files articles because they predate her involvement. The whole project was actually TWO attempts to launch a new DS project, not just the one. With the first attempt (mentioned in the DS Files articles), we didn't have any sort of storyline attached to the proposal. It was simply an attempt to gain the proper permissions from Dan Curtis to proceed ahead with developing something new for TV. When that failed, we came back two years later with a full blown proposal to launch a brand new continuation series based on Dark Shadows. That's where this outline (known in TV lingo as “the bible”) came from. Lisa is one of my oldest friendships (50+ years now!) and during the 80s we collaborated on many TV pilots and episodic scripts. I went to her and we spent nearly two months writing the original first draft of the First Season Story Projection, which was no easy task. I was on the phone constantly with Jim Pierson picking his brain on original series story details. Plus there was Frid's reluctance to express any sort of interest, not to mention his aging 20+ years. I know there are continuity issues from where DS left off in 1971 and where we picked up in this storyline, but they were minor enough that we felt they wouldn't ruffle too many feathers with the fans. Jim acted as our sounding board. I would throw an idea at him and ask if he thought we could get away with it since it didn't fit 100% into the original series canon.
patrickm: Regarding Reply #5, The “new” characters, like Dr. Melissa Stokes or Susan Collins or Anton Rakosi, were never meant to be filled by DS alum actors. And you hit the nail on the head about the involvement of David Selby. We didn't even talk to him when we were developing this proposal because he was busy playing Richard Channing over on Falcon Crest. Since I worked at Lorimar at the time, I knew how much he was making per episode, and I knew if this series idea got off the ground the producers would never have been able to buy him out so he could return as Quentin. The unspoken plan was if the show got off the ground and stayed on the air long enough, and if Falcon Crest ended, we would approach Mr. Selby at that time to try to woo him back into the Quentin Collins character.
Mysterious Benefactor: Regarding Reply #6, indeed we never wanted to go back to Square One and rehash the Barnabas origin story yet again. Curtis did it in the original series, then again in House of Dark Shadows. We wanted to follow what revival TV series of the time were doing, a la Star Trek: The Next Generation or The Brady's or Return to Mayberry, all of which brought the original series forward into the modern day. So, yes, it's much the same idea that Mark B. Perry decided to follow with his Dark Shadows: Reincarnation proposal.
Penny Dreadful: Regarding Reply #7, thank you for posting these articles/interviews. I had completely forgotten that we attempted to approach Mr. Curtis twice about a revival or reunion show, and re-reading those pages helped me sort out the memories and timeline.
Uncle Roger: Regarding Reply #11, your casting ideas are interesting, but I should point out that we wouldn't have been able to go after William Devane at that time, as he was a regular on Knots Landing. I addressed the continuity errors in an earlier reply, so won't repeat myself here. And the only reason it took so long for this to surface in book form on Amazon is that it was tucked away in an archival file cabinet for decades, pretty much forgotten. When I came across it, Amazon's self-publishing unit made it so easy to format and release that I couldn't resist putting it out there. However, in the roughly 7-years it was available on Amazon, it sold a whopping 17 copies, which is why I retired it last year. As for Diana Millay's involvement, she was a good friend that I had known by that time for several years. On one of her visits to L.A. we got together and I filled her in on what we were doing. She insisted on being in the loop throughout the process, whether or not we were developing a character for her to play. In the early drafts of the bible she offered quite a lot of valuable input on the storytelling, but it was all verbal via phone calls or sitting and talking over lunch. I took copious notes when she had anything to say, but none of her input could be called “writing,” which is why I opted to mention her as a story consultant only, which wasn't an issue for her in the least. Ultimately, she was like a cheerleader for us, keeping us going when we knew the odds were stacked against us.
Naturally, if anyone has more questions, please feel free to ask me at any time. Thank you all for keeping this topic alive all these years. I still think it's a little strange, but I'm not going to argue with anyone about it. :)
I'm a terrible proofreader these days, so please forgive any typos you might stumble over. All best wishes from Scott Young.
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Thanks for the response, Scott. I would be interested in hearing your ideas for casting the new characters. I think that we would have loved to see an Angelique/Maggie catfish. Either with or without magic. Also, were there any plans to reintroduce Nicholas Blair?
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Hi Uncle Roger. Are you speaking of casting in terms of who was available at the time we were actively trying to make a deal with Dan Curtis? Or are you speaking in terms of today's actors, as though we've brushed it off and are giving it another shot? I have some definite ideas for casting in today's market. Sorry to say that Nicholas Blair wasn't a character we were focusing on, but there's nothing to say he couldn't have made an appearance in a later season, after the series found its legs and had been on the air for at least one full season. We only developed material for a First Season and an exciting three-way season finale cliffhanger. We did have a fairly complete list of characters from the original series, and it boiled down to simple storytelling -- the more characters you put in the storylines, things become too convoluted because there are too many characters the writers have to accommodate each week, not mention budgets the producers must keep the episodes within.
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Well, I was originally thinking about actors from when Dan Curtis was approached. But I'd also like to hear some suggestions about contemporary actors.
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Uncle Roger: We didn't discuss casting much, but we did have some ideas. Writers tend to visualize certain actors in roles as they write. It helps develop better characters to have a sense of what they look like in your mind. Do keep in mind that this was the late-1980s, and also take into consideration that this was Dark Shadows 20-years later. Here are some names we had in our thoughts as we wrote:
"David Collins" played by Terry Lester
"Susan Collins" played by Pamela Sue Martin
"Dr. Melissa Stokes" played by Meg Foster
"Seth Martin" played by Roy Thinnes
"Anton Rakosi" played by Ken Wahl
"Armand Delacroix" played by Geoffrey Holder
Of course we were amused to see Roy Thinnes show up as "Trask" in the 1991 revival series.
I'll write a separate post about my thoughts on contemporary casting. I'm sure you'll find it amusing.
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Some very interesting casting ideas! Roy Thinnes was an actor that Curtis cast in many projects, so he might well have ended up on the series. Meg Foster, Geoffrey Holder and Ken Wahl are all great ideas. I really like Pamela Sue Martin as Susan but, since she quit both Nancy Drew and Dynasty, I don't know if she would have stayed with any series. But that point is certainly moot now.
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Uncle Roger:
I'm glad you like some of those choices. Of course, casting isn't something the writer has a lot of involvement in, unless they're a multi-hyphenate, in which case they call all the shots. We only kept these actors in mind while we were writing, so we had clear pictures in our minds of what they looked like. By the late-80s, Pamela Sue Martin had run her course as a difficult actress. If a forgiving producer was willing, she would have landed new work. Had we actually been casting, I imagine our meeting would have included, "You messed things up pretty bad a few years ago... Have you got all that out of your system now? Are you going to do the same thing to me and my show? If not, go on, get out of here and go talk to Wardrobe to see what they think "Susan" will be wearing." Lol.
I was giving thought to the Part 2 of your question, re: contemporary actors filling new character roles in the Darker Shadows storyline, and I realized it's moot. Darker Shadows (original title "Return to Collinwood") was developed and created with the intention of bnringing back together at least 11 of the original series actors, along with the new characters/actors. The time for that is long passed. Back in 1987-88, many of those actors were still alive, or still yoiung enough to make the casting choices realistic. Now, we would either have to extensively re-write the thing in order to include only those original actors still with us. Frankly, though, I felt it was a pointless exercise, so I switched gears...
In my thoughts, I created the scenario of, "Dark Shadows has just come across my desk, and I'm the new casting director." As much as I hate the idea, I went ahead and assumed the new series was developed under Dan Curtis and, therefore, starts at the retelling of the Barnabas story all over again, with the Victoria Winters story also thrown in. Attached you'll see my "contemporary" casting choices for that fictional series, if it were launching and if it landed in my hands.
A couple of notes -- if this were a decade ago, I'd be advocating for Benedict Cumberbatch to play Barnabas. As it is right now, I think he's crossed the threshhold into "too old" territory. I'm thinking like a producer right now. Think about it. If he hired on now and the series ran for an entire decade, he'd be in his 60s. It would be the "Data Dilemma" all over again, where actor Brent Spiner now looks too old (and too fat) to play Data on Star Trek, yet they went and did it anyway in the Picard series. Totally did not work for me on a strictly visual basis. And please don't laugh at some of my other choices, like Molly Ringwald to play Julia Hoffman. She's in her 50s now, and she has that beautiful red hair, and she's proven to be a dynamite actress at this age with the productions she's been in. The right styling, and she's the perfect Julia... just as Helena Bonham-Carter was the perfect Julia in the Burton-Depp film. And don't you dare laugh at Mark Hamill as Prof. Stokes -- it's the perfect role to attract him to the show, complete with an excess of eccentricities to give him plenty to work with in his scenes. Hahahahahahahaha.
Again, please overlook any blatant typos or grammar errors. Fingers work faster than brain, and brain doesn't see the errors, so I just send things as-is anymore.
Have fun! Looking forward to your response.
syoung.
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Some very interesting choices. My choice for Susan would be Kristen Alderson, who played Starr Manning on One Life To Live. Kristen is now old enough to be playing a wife. She can play the sweetness and convey the darker stuff as required. I could see Anton being played by James Marsters from Buffy The Vampire Slayer. I could also see another One Life To Live actor David Gregory as David. He has the look of a leading man and the acting chops to play the darker stuff.
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Uncle Roger... What you and others don't know is that in 2014-15 I dusted the original proposal off again with a new co-writer and we completely updated it for the current (at that time) TV market. Quentin didn't appear in the original version back in 1988-89, but he was a main character in the new version because Falcon Crest was long ago canceled and David Selby was available. What we ended up with had a much darker tone because series like American Horror Story had premiered in 2011 and were very popular. Things we changed from the original included: 1) Expanding David's family to include twin college age daughters Rosannah and Savannah, and middle-schooler son Brandon, 2) Making Quentin a main character, and 3) We tossed out the idea of casting original DS actors in certain roles because so many of them had passed away or were too old, which then offered us much more flexibility in the storytelling. Here's a little tidbit from the pilot script that evolved during this time.
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Very interesting Scott. But alas...
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Scott, I was rereading Darker Shadows, as I do from time to time and discovered a connection of sorts to myself. Richard Blumenthal, who was the lawyer for Sam Hall, later became the Attorney General of my home state of Connecticut. I was employed by the state for approximately thirty years. Mr. Blumenthal and I never crossed paths directly but his name was very familiar to state employees from various memos and policy decisions. If I had ever had the opportunity to meet him I certainly would have mentioned the project. Just to see what his reaction would have been.
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Uncle Roger: I doubt Mr. Blumenthal would have had any reaction. I spoke with him once on the phone, then he provided the brief letter on behalf of Sam Hall, whom I also spoke with only once on the phone. The conversation went like this, "Sam wants me to send you a letter. What do you need that letter to say?" I explained what we were doing, and he said, "So, you need a Letter of Interest?" I said yes, and a few days later the letter was in my mailbox. Of all the original cast and crew of Dark Shadows that I contacted, Sam Hall was the least enthused about the idea of a TV reunion film. Someone tipped him off in advance that I would be calling, so he was able to keep the conversation to an absolute minimum. Violet Welles and Ron Sproat were right there in the writing process with us, but Mr. Hall indicated he would only participate at that stage if there was a check attached. So, he never read any of the material that was developed, as we never sent it to him.
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You know, I'm not the least surprised that Sam had become what I shall politely call ornery. When Prospect Park did the short-lived online revival of One Life To Live, he was one of the many people who sued them for a piece of the pie. I don't think that the law suit went anywhere. Prospect Park had no assets to speak of. And it's been well over ten years since production ceased, the actors are still owed money.
While most of the writings about DS paint a very rosy picture about cast and crew, the book Llanview In The Afternoon paints a somewhat different picture of Sam. He said some rather nasty things about his longtime collaborator Gordon Russell, he said, in reference to Gordon's occasional acting career, that Gordon had been playing the part of a writer for years. Meow!
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Oh, I definitely believe things weren't all wine and roses behind the scenes of Dark Shadows. Sam Hall wasn't unpleasant per se to deal with when I encountered him, but he was opinionated and was determined to only look out for himself. He didn't want to collab with Violet and Ron, he wanted to be in charge of the whole thing and be the only writer.
One aspect of that brief encounter with Mr. Hall has always amused me -- He was horrified that anyone would put as much effort into writing something like we were doing and not be paid for it. I did offer to let him read what we had at that time, hoping he would add critiques, notes, ideas, etc., but that was asking way too much from him without offering a payment to go along with the request.
Jim was good about warning me in advance of anyone he thought might be difficult to deal with, and there were a couple. I never really had any surprises when talking with the original cast and crew. Sometimes it was actually quite fun. I remember Jim saying Alexandra would be lovely to talk with, but in the end I would be wasting of my time. After I explained the simplicity of a Letter of Interest, she was like, "Oh, I can do that for you, and then we'll see how it goes"
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Newby question for everyone -- if I wanted to post a collage type picture that was not related to this thread, is there a pictures, memories, memes or similar wall for such posts? Thanks.
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Also on Llanview In The Afternoon, Sam also claimed that he and his wife (Grayson, of course, but not mentioned by name) saw young Judith Light in a play. That eventually led to Judith being cast as Karen Wolek on OLTL. I've never heard that anecdote anywhere else. But it sounds like it might just be true.
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There are several interview clips on YouTube where Judith Light discusses getting the part of Karen Wolek. I queued them up and let them run, listening to them as I was working on other things. There's no mention of the Halls at all. The significant story she tells is of her being in a lot of plays and failing every audition for TV and Film work and she was about to give up acting altogether when she went on a specific audition and landed the Karen role. I would think if Sam & Grayson Hall were part of her transition from stage to television she would mention it in public interviews, don't you think?
Now, there's the later story about the two of them -- in 1980 -- when Hall wrote the storyline that won her the Emmy for Best Acting. But Light had already been on One Life to Live for a few years at this point, it had nothing to do with her landing the role. You can Google "Judith Light and Sam Hall" and several references to the story come right up at the top of the list.
Perhaps the writer of the book you mentioned got a few story threads crossed? I wouldn't want to say that for sure because I don't know the book, not do I know much about One Life to Live. I'm just speculating. Memory does that to you. I have to admit when a writer approached me recently about the evolution of the DS Proposals, I related the story to him as I remembered it, but managed to leave one huge chunk of the story our because I had completely forgotten it. When I got to read Ed Gross's Dark Shadows Files articles, it came back to me clear as day, and I had to contact that writer and amend what I had told him so he had the actual timeline. I've noticed more and more as I navigate my 60s that my memory isn't as good as I've boasted it to be.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble... :)