DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 I => Topic started by: retzev on March 02, 2006, 05:43:07 AM
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[spoiler]Last night I watched the episode where Barnabas kills Carl. I was so happy to see his character killed off. Such a whiner, so annoying, completely insufferable. I could hardly make it through an episode he was in.
Due to John Karlen's immense talent, of course...[/spoiler]
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Couldn't disagree with you more.... ;)
Carl was a brilliant ingredient of that whole story arc. Who knew (up to that point) that you could add a dash of comedy into an otherwise relentlessly serious series, and make it work. [spoiler]And his death was a very important event in the entire series. It was, perhaps, the most despicable act Barnabas ever committed, and the fans had to come to terms with that act.[/spoiler]
Of course, you're 100 percent right about Karlen's talent..... :D
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Sorry, I loved Carl. Finally a Collins with a sense of humor. I also thought Carl & Pansy were a perfect match.
[spoiler]I was saddened when Barnabas killed him, but I do think it had to happen for Barnabas' character. I think the viewers needed to be reminded that Barnabas could still be unpredictable and very dangerous. Barnabas had that great edge to him, and it helped keep the character scary on some level.[/spoiler]
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I thought the scenes leading up to the act in question were some of the best in the 1897 storyline.
[spoiler]I am always struck by the scene between Quentin and Barnabas in the secret room when Quentin comes to realize that Barnabas has a secret problem of his own.[/spoiler]
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I also get a kick out of Carl - I thought he was a marvelous character, totally opposite of his siblings (but then they all were such opposites of each other). He seemingly enjoyed making his stuffier older brother and sister, Edward and Judith, wince, while entertaining and annoying Quentin simultaneously. And he wasn't always a jokester; the fellah could easily become upset and morose, such as during the reading of Grandmamamama's will when it was revealed who got what, and when Pansy suddenly was nowhere to be found.
[spoiler]And wasn't one of the reasons why his character was killed off was because John Karlen had the opportunity to go and do something else, so he had to take another temporary leave of the series (as many of the actors and actresses did)?[/spoiler]
Gerard
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I thought the scenes leading up to the act in question were some of the best in the 1897 storyline.
[spoiler]I am always struck by the scene between Quentin and Barnabas in the secret room when Quentin comes to realize that Barnabas has a secret problem of his own.[/spoiler]
I too love this scene between the two of them. It was THE turning point in their relationship and the beginning of a lifetime friendship.
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I think this was the time when John Karlen was going out west for the first time to try his luck? I loved Carl, and [spoiler]was shocked as a kid when he was done in. His first scene with Barnabas was priceless! The "fib" pistol got us rolling with the character. I was always impressed with JK's intensity and vulnerability in the role. Instead of just indicating he was "confused" or "didn't understand" through the lines, one could always see the wheels turning in Carl's head. This is a testament to JK's acting ability, in my opinion.[/spoiler]
Petofi
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[spoiler]Good point about the killing of Carl helping to develop and/or remind us of Barnabas's character.[/spoiler]
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This thing is a continuing source of trouble for me. Perhaps next time I plough through 1897, or the portion I own (post-Carl's comeback), I'll see the intent behind [spoiler]the great Barnabas' cowardly stupid murder.[/spoiler]Penny has attempted to educate me on this. I couls only perceive it as a blunder before. Yes, Q actually did stand there, moments after finding out, and say "Well I guess you had no choice..." didn't he?!
Carl was one of the good guys.
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I loved Carl. Absolutely priceless. Brilliant work on Karlen's part. Every moment was great - his first encounter with Barnabas in particular. He and Frid were magical, I thought.
;D
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I too, loved Carl and wished his character could have been around for a bit longer than he was.
Do you realize that HALF of the characters that are introduced in 1897 die?! In my awesomeness, I actually say down once and wrote out all the characters introduced, and then made tallies of if they were alive by the end of the story or not. There was something like 50 characters, and 25 of them were murdered. :o
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A whole lot of the die right at the end.
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I too, loved Carl and wished his character could have been around for a bit longer than he was.
Do you realize that HALF of the characters that are introduced in 1897 die?! In my awesomeness, I actually say down once and wrote out all the characters introduced, and then made tallies of if they were alive by the end of the story or not. There was something like 50 characters, and 25 of them were murdered. :o
the body count by the end of 1795 was pretty high too.as someone pointed out here recently in any other time period major characters could get bumped off yet in the present the primary cast remained pretty static.
i missed a portion of 1897.could someone tell me(in a spoiler of course)what became of magda and sandor.when i resumed the storyline both characters were absent and i never knew why.
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[spoiler]Sandor was stabbed in the back by gypsies from King Johnny's camp as punishment for Magda stealing the hand. Zombie Sandor made it back to the Old House and collapsed in the foyer. His death may have been tied to Julianka's curse.[/spoiler]
If you haven't finished 1897, Magda disappears for a little while (when Julia arrives) but returns again later in the storyline.
[spoiler]We never have closure with her character. We simply hear Magda and Charity's voices in the past discussing events.[/spoiler]
ProfStokes
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Another great topic that I just hit in trying to play catchup.
I have to agree about Carl being a great character -- though to be fair he DID stray over the line into manic from time to time and annoy me. [silly]
I loved the set up the writers did with the siblings, with more than a wink at the cliches of Victorian melodrama. The two older, stereotypically VICTORIAN staid and respectable siblings -- then the two completely different variations on Victorian wastrels/party boys. [beer] And here's what I find particularly interesting about Carl --he's SILLY, but not by ANY means STUPID. I may be wrong about this, but I can't recall any other character being able to reason out how to open the secret room from the INSIDE (not to mention he would have been doing it in total darkness to boot). The sense I got is that Carl had been the baby and been fussed over and coddled -- then along came a baby brother who was handed 4 aces in the genetic lottery, and there went all his attention. The jokes and pranks and silliness seemed to be attention getting devices -- or protective coloring depending on your point of view. In that respect he reminded me a great deal of Clau-Clau-Claudius (Any one else here remember Derek Jacobi in "I Claudius"?), who survived his family's murderous political machinations by appearing harmless and stupid.
As to those pertinent scenes with Carl, Quentin and Barnabas.... Back on the last run through of the series in 2001 forward I had just been watching casually to play catchup after accidentally catching the series from ep one. What hooked me into being active in the fandom were those scenes. Marvelous scenes with all sorts of moral dilemmas, decisions and consequences -- and so well played by all the actors involved.
[spoiler]Good point about the killing of Carl helping to develop and/or remind us of Barnabas's character.[/spoiler]
This was a good case of an actor leaving being used to good character effect for not just one, but two of the remaining characters.
[spoiler]For Barnabas it was a reminder that he could still revert to the Barnabas to whom life was cheap and who could kill with impunity. However, the scene with Quentin realizing that Carl ratting out Barnabas imperiled HIS survival was an even better case of character development in my mind. I think that Q not only thought that his only hope lay with Barnabas, but he also realized that if Carl would kill Barnabas, Carl wouldn't hesitate to kill HIM if he found out about HIS curse. It was the last seat in the lifeboat scenario, and in that case Q's self interest won. Compare this to a later time when he is given that choice: when Petofi orders him to stake Barnabas in the cave. Self interest is telling him he has to do it, but THIS time, he can't bring himself to betray someone to save himself. Lousy as Carl's death is, once they did it at least they used it to good effect because of that.[/spoiler]
... I couls only perceive it as a blunder before. Yes, Q actually did stand there, moments after finding out, and say "Well I guess you had no choice..." didn't he?! ....
Quentin's reactions in that scene seemed weird and off until I watched a few times. For what it's worth, this is the theory I came up with: [spoiler]I got the feeling that Carl dying wasnt real to Quentin till he saw his body. That seems to be when he lost it in that scene. As to him assuring Barnabas it wasn't his fault -- I think at that point Quentin (who we know is not slow on the uptake) had processed the fact that Carl was killed cause he knew about Barnabas -- and if he could kill Carl, would he then turn around and kill Quentin if he were crossed. I think at that point Quentin was making very sure he did NOTHING to make Barnabas mad for fear Barn would turn on HIM.[/spoiler]
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What is the chonological order of the 1897 sibs? I always thought it was Edward, Judith, Quentin and Carl. Am I wrong?
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Maybe someone else knows better, but to the best of my knowledge, the series never pins that down precisely. The only sibling whose birthdate is mentioned is Quentin born 1870. (Interesting FYI is that Jenny's tombstone shows her born 1869 or a year before Q.) Whether Carl or Quentin is actually the younger is something you have to play by ear, depending on how you interpret the ways they behave.
It could work well either way: Quentin does behave like the baby at times, running home to Edward and Judith to fix things when he gets into scrapes. But Carl, too, behaves that way a lot. But the theory I mentioned about Carl being supplanted by Q then acting out to get attention is the one I personally prefer. Your mileage may vary.
On a lighter note, here's a possible scenario for you: Quentin and Carl as kids in the winter. Anyone think Quentin wouldn't tease or trick Carl into licking the icy pump handle?
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Judith I think is definetly the oldest, follwed by Edward. I thought it was mentioned on the show that Carl was the youngest brother, but I could be wrong.
On a lighter note, here's a possible scenario for you: Quentin and Carl as kids in the winter. Anyone think Quentin wouldn't tease or trick Carl into licking the icy pump handle?
[laughing_devil] I can picture that quite clearly.
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I think we assume Carl is the youngest because Karlen plays him so child-like.
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Now, how would James Hall have played Carl?? Forget it, not a serious question...
Jeannie... I guess it was hard to process it that way for me (Q placating Barnabas when saying it wasn't his fault) because TV rarely, even now, skips the exposition as to what a character is actually thinking. In real life, someone in Q's position would say something incomplete or cryptic and we'd have to figure the meaning out ourselves, if we were in the room with him. But on TV, if the writers wanted us to believe that version of Q's motives for saying what he did, they'd generally have him go off to some other character and say, "You know, that Barnabas is more dangerous than I thought... I'd better humor him..."
Of course, he probably had no one to say that to. I'm not criticizing. I love it when a program trusts the viewers to have brains and figure things out for themselves. But it throws you (or it did me) when so many other shows spell everything out and DS doesn't. It leads one to look only at what's explained on-screen.