DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '26 I => Polls Archive => Topic started by: TNickey2003 on November 12, 2005, 08:44:57 PM
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If you feel two or more of the above are equally good lovemakers, feel free to vote for both/all of them.
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*message deleted*
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I think first of Marie Wallace, but somehow her characters themselves don't really quailfy. Then, Pansy Faye Trask, but then again... if Angelique were really after you, if you were Barnabas in other words, well, she'd... really make that moment count, don't you think?!
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I sure wouldn't complain about doing the research to find out. ;)
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Julia, of course. Underneath that staid tweed exterior lurks a VOLCANO of female passion, seething to let the inner lava fly!
Just one fan's opinion,
G.
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Some personal thoughts: Angelique is probably the most hotblooded of DS women lovemakers, but may experience the pitfall of being the one most likely to put the demands on her partner, and spoil things in the process.
Earlier Maggie is probably the sweetest and nicest of the DS women lovemakers.
Lady Kitty Hampshire is probably the smartest and most worldly-wise of the DS women lovemakers.
Charity/Pansy Faye is probably the most outspoken of them all.
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Okay folks, if no one else will do it, leave it to me.
I've been glaring at this topic for two days wondering what the f*ck it means.
I haven't really heard of anyone calling anyone else a "lovemaker" since around 1897. So, in the 21st century, what do we really mean, when we refer to a woman (or a group of women) as a lovemaker(s)??
What the Hell is a "lovemaker?"
Aren't we really asking, "which chick would be hottest in the sack?" And if so, why not just come right-out and ask? This isn't 1897, after all.
To be honest -- and not trying to be offensive, but Hell -- this has got to be the strangest, most sexist post I have ever seen on the message board. And I am not even a chick.
Does it really take a gay-boy to recognize blatant sexism when he see it?
Back to the topic -- I'd vote for Chris or Quentin. Now those dudes would be great "lovemakers."
WTF??
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To be honest -- and not trying to be offensive, but Hell -- this has got to be the strangest, most sexist post I have ever seen on the message board. And I am not even a chick.
Does it really take a gay-boy to recognize blatant sexism when he see it?
No, it doesn't. As a chick, I do think that asking which female character would make a better lover is sexist (true, the term "lovemaker" seems out of place, but I don't see the connection to sexism), though I don't find it any more sexist than discussing which DS hunk looks better shirtless. As the Executive Moderator, I don't feel that either of those subjects hurts anybody. And as a feminist, which I feel is all about having the freedom to choose, I choose to participate only in those polls that interest me. Your honesty is appreciated, Fletcher, but if a poll or its phrasing is bothering you, you could try simply ignoring it.
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I haven't really heard of anyone calling anyone else a "lovemaker" since around 1897.
It's hardly an archaic term or a gendered one. It's used in the Jimi Hendrix song "Foxy Lady," which was later featured prominently in the Wayne's World movie. In the 1970's, soul singer Betty Wright had a song called "Let Me Be Your Love Maker." It was later covered by Foreigner (a male group) as "Love Maker." And Tom Jones had a song called "One Night Only Love Maker." Granted, it's not as commonly used as "lover," but the term can be and is applied to either sex.
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Sorry if my attempt at tongue-in-cheek humor came across as serious. I really didn't mean it as a serious criticism. I just thought the phrasing came across as a bit archaic, and deserved a little friendly jab. I guess the next time I try to be funny, I'll need to try a little harder. But really, would I use the term "chick" in a serious protest of sexism?
And I agree with you Midnite, it is typically my practice to simply ignore posts that offend, bother, or bore me. That's the best way to go, I think.
Again, sorry if my attempt at humor came out the wrong way.
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if Angelique were really after you, if you were Barnabas in other words, well, she'd... really make that moment count, don't you think?!
You betcha! LOL
But anyway.......Eh! I don't find asking which female character would make the best lover sexist. It's kind of an interesting topic (somehow). What I find slightly disturbing is the glaring omission of some of the older, more "mature" characters on the show. Jeez - what about Julia, or maybe Flora Collins? (Now, THERE'S someone! A romance novelist.) And hey - what about poor Mrs. Johnson? Behind that repressed exterior lies......etc.[lghy]
Anyway, I'm with Gothick. It's Julia all the way.
;D
PS Though not qualified to judge, I can't imagine anyone on the list as being great in the sack or whatever. Maybe Angelique, if anyone.
PPS Don't have the list in front of me but don't remember seeing Samantha Collins. Also, BETH!
Actually, I think I might change my vote to Magda! Firey......uninhibited......
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Fletcher,
No problem. :D Try smileys, and keep in mind that Forum membership is roughly 50% female. ;)
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Okay, my thoughts...
Angelique-probably was a tiger in the sack w/Barnabas (probably scared the hell out of him too, LOL!)
Carolyn-she was such a slut wasn't she? ;)
Charity-another slut, practically a hooker! <beg>
Angelique Stokes-see above for other Angie, but replace Barnie w/Quentin. ;D
Catherine-how could she NOT be passionate when Bramwell was so passionate w/her. I see the two of them breeding like rabbits personally. ; Besides, didn't she say in one episode (1203?) "Don't be gentle!" Guess she likes it on the rough side, LOL! >:D
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Okay folks, if no one else will do it, leave it to me.
I've been glaring at this topic for two days wondering what the f*ck it means.
I haven't really heard of anyone calling anyone else a "lovemaker" since around 1897. So, in the 21st century, what do we really mean, when we refer to a woman (or a group of women) as a lovemaker(s)??
What the Hell is a "lovemaker?"
Aren't we really asking, "which chick would be hottest in the sack?" And if so, why not just come right-out and ask? This isn't 1897, after all.
To be honest -- and not trying to be offensive, but Hell -- this has got to be the strangest, most sexist post I have ever seen on the message board. And I am not even a chick.
Does it really take a gay-boy to recognize blatant sexism when he see it?
Back to the topic -- I'd vote for Chris or Quentin. Now those dudes would be great "lovemakers."
WTF??
Various remarks....
Yet one more reason for me to hate the twenty-first century.
This is pretty obviously either a sexist post, or one that just angrily denies the concept or possibilty of anything but mechanical sex. I'm angry over the way society's going, over how shallow and mindless and thoughtless it's getting, and the fact that I don't see anything coming along to stop it. I try very hard to avoid getting (extremely) bitterly disillusioned, to the point where I lash out at any implication that there might be real emotion or passion in the world, just because i don't find it in the world. Which I don't. But if I let myself be turned into a hostile jerk over it, the other side wins and I personally lose more than I could ever express in words.
Now I'll look at how other people responded to this.
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What, no mention of either Grand-Ma-Ma Edith Collins or "someone's" personal favorite, Bathia Mapes, as ageless paragons of Dark Shadows/AARP pulchritude?
You can talk all you want about sexism, but what about age discrimination? Heck, only yesterday Kathleen Turner was publicly lamenting the fact that as a more "mature" actor (read: past the BIG 5-0), she had to actually hide the fact that she was sufferring from arthritis, for the fear of not being offered any more leading/prominent roles.
And as far as I'm concerned, as a "more mature" cousin, Ms. Turner still looks darned good (as do Edith and Bathia!). Yes, it was Laura Murdoch Collins (or, then again, was it Charles Delaware Tate?) who wisely said: "Age is a state of mind." My sentiments completely, and I'd have a heck of a lot more to say about sexy seniors, if I weren't suffering from a middle-aged moment right this very second!
Excuse me, while I go and begin my memory exercises . Now let's see, Quentin Collins I was married to that harridan, Samantha Drew Collins, and Quentin Collins II was married to that gypsy woman, Julianka...or was he married to Maria Ouspensya....?
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Now I'll look at how other people responded to this.
Being a happily heterosexual female this post has little interest for ME. I laughed and was a bit startled when I saw it here but thought, what the hey, I've seen dozens of female oriented posts in my General Hospital board that coo and giggle over a bare chest here and there of their fav male stars. I'm assuming the guys here will have fun with this one. I've read the responses briefly and nothing appears degenerate or totally lustful. It's a bit funny for me anyway. ;D
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I think I'll take a moment to comment on each one. ;)
Earlier Maggie (as Joe Haskell's financee, victim of Barnabas Collins, girlfriend of Nicholas Blair; Maggie with long brown-red hair shorn in bangs): Now, this girl has a real...take charge attitude, especially at the beginning. By the time Nicholas Blair enters her life...she seems a little...well...too soft to be that great.
Later Maggie ( as governess of Collinwood, girlfriend to Barnabas, Quentin, Sebastian Shaw; Maggie with dark hair, without bangs): Ahh...now we're on to the super boring Maggie. Looking at how she worked on the show, she seems a little too...loud. All that screaming!
Angelique: Oh...she'll make you do things that would even make Jenna Jameson blush. ;)
Carolyn Stoddard Hawkes: I'd like super-party girl Carolyn from the start of the series. She seems like she'd be real fun to be with. Like Maggie, and most other characters, by the end of the series, she's just a little too watered-down to be any real fun.
Victoria Winters Clark: She seems like she'd care more for you than some of the others, but she just doesn't seem wild enough. Eh, who would after Jeff Clark tried to devour her face in that one kiss? *shudders* I've seen less face-eating in Silence of the Lambs!
Roxanne Drew (Parallel Time): I've always had a thing for red-heads. ;) This one is no exception. She seems like she can get wild with the rest of them, yet have a softer side capable of some real love. :)
Roxanne Drew (Real Time): As much as I'd enjoy dying for this red-hot woman, I think I'll keep my blood IN my body, thanks.
Olivia Corey: Oh, what a bore this woman was. So obsessed over one man, I'm sure she'd call out the wrong name!
Josette DuPres: This woman jumps from man to man too easily. If she lets something as minor as a magic potion or spell change her mind about a man, just forget it!
Millicent Collins Forbes: Phooey! What a stick in the mud this woman is! She's much too immature for a good man. I personally think that Nathan wasted his time. Eh...on the other hand, I can always sacrifice myself for money...
Rachel Drummond: Her curiosity might actually be a good thing in the bedroom. Let her try out new things on you that you might not have thought up yourself. Then again...curiosity killed the cat, and she's well....dead proof of that.
Lady Kitty Hampshire: Eh, like I said for Olivia Corey, with eyes for only woman man...nothing you can do about that.
Charity Trask (as herself): Oh, wow, an even bigger stick in the mud than Millicent! I'd rather have Minerva than Charity! Then again, look at her father. Hmmm...she would prove to be quite a challenge. It could be fun...rehabilitating her. ;)
Charity Trask (possessed by Pansy Faye's spirit): Ah, now here's one that knows how to have fun! Pretty, though she could pass for Tammy Fae Baker with all that makeup. We'll have to use a little soap and water on this one before she's ready for anyone.
Maggie Evans Collins ( Parallel Time): Can't really comment on this, since I haven't seen too much of this part of the series.
Angelique Stokes ( Parallel Time): See comment for Maggie (PT).
Carolyn Loomis (Parallel Time): See comment for Maggie (PT).
Alexis Stokes ( Parallel Time): See comment for Maggie (PT).
Daphne Harridge: See comment for Maggie (PT).
Catherine Harridge (1841 PT): See comment for Maggie (PT).
Woo-ee! That was fun! ;)
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Julia, of course. Underneath that staid tweed exterior lurks a VOLCANO of female passion, seething to let the inner lava fly!
Absolutely darling...{purrrr...I mean...wink}. :-* I could see Magda getting out the blindfolds and whips as well...talk about a zesty gal... [thumb]
As one of the "younger ones" on this board, and someone who has more than a few "mature" friends, all I can say is...age ain't nothing but a number! I don't see any problem in one imagining the carnal potential of any of the adult female/male DS characters, older or younger...whatever suits your fancy. ;D Its an intriguing and at times funny diversion from other things...not that I am *not* interested in examining the full pallate of each character's complex personality (don't get me wrong - lol) but, ya know...
Maybe the title of this thread should've been "most passionate," that way it could've encompassed a wide range of characteristics that we all hold near and dear...I dunno. :- ;)
And to be fair, perhaps there should be a poll in the future concerning the male of the species on these particular subjects...
Okay, back to work--
feme-wench
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Pansy Faye.
Sometimes, the most endearing quality in bed, is a bawdy sense of humor. :D
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Julianka the gypsy from 1897. Smoldering! Dangerous! Dark hair, and 200 proof passion! Sexy outfits never hurt either. :P !!!
Michael
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Julia, of course. Underneath that staid tweed exterior lurks a VOLCANO of female passion, seething to let the inner lava fly!
R U confusing the actress with the character? I watched an early scene recently with a JuliaList moderator . .Julia responds to some bad Barnabas news by patting him on the shoulder and saying "Poor Barnabas". . .The JuliaList gal said,"she's such a virgin" and against my better wishes, i had to agree --Julia seemed awfully awkward with the fella. .. now who's to say that after a few glasses of Bushmills neat Julia wouldn't go wild! (No videos please!) :P
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Pansy Faye.
Sometimes, the most endearing quality in bed, is a bawdy sense of humor. :D
Ture, as long as one doesn't laugh at "the mighty sword"! LOL! ;)
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Angelique Bouchard Collins was certainly a one woman man, but she was able to feign interest in others when it suited her purpose, but I think she certainly was one of the most passionate DS women, and I agree she probably scared Barnabas, mostly probably for the passion she brought out in him, if you think about it Barnabas was pretty emotionally repressed for most of the series, the most passion we see him display is to Angelique in 1795, and he appears the most distraught at her death in 1840...
I think this is an interesting topic, too, not sexist!!
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I agree she probably scared Barnabas, mostly probably for the passion she brought out in him, if you think about it Barnabas was pretty emotionally repressed for most of the series, the most passion we see him display is to Angelique in 1795, and he appears the most distraught at her death in 1840...
Very true! He was a typical, "Colonial" gentleman, emotionless on the outside. Some fan once said, not on these forums, on the Alt.tv.DS boards, that Bramwell was tepid (luke-warm) compared to Barnabas, and nothing could be further from the truth. Now that man had *passion*! And wasn't afraid to show it, especially when Catherine was around. He was just as passionate when he was pissed about something too as he had a nasty temper, but could mack w/the best of them too. I think Catherine even once warned him not to put himself into "one of his vicious tempers" when he's railing on Morgan.
But getting back to Barnie, those scenes between him and Angelique in 1795, like when she sneaks up to his bedroom and they kiss, were pretty HOT for DS, LOL! Jonathan ... w/Lara, whether she was Angelique or Catherine. Those two had probably the best chemistry on DS, IMHO. ;D
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I agree she probably scared Barnabas, mostly probably for the passion she brought out in him
Another thought just occured to me, in those bedroom scenes where they're kissing passionately, when he breaks away from her at last, he seems almost ashamed that he was kissing her. I think he even apoligizes to her, but it's been awhile since I've watched 1795. Anyone remember this?
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Pansy Faye.
Sometimes, the most endearing quality in bed, is a bawdy sense of humor. :D
I hear you on that! Heck, I'll bet that those four liberated women on "Sex and the City" (but most especially, Samantha), not to mention all of those numerous paramours of various and sundry P'sOTUS, would wholeheartedly attest to the positive benefits of laughter in the bedroom.
And, I reaize that they lived several decades apart, but wouldn't it have been great fun to have seen those two "wild-and-crazy" Dark Shadows kids, namely Abigail Collins and Mordecai Grimes, get together in the Biblical "sense"?
I mean, with all of comedic, sexual tension, crackling between them, it would almost be like witnessing the budding romance of Mae West and Buddy Hackett!
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Pansy Faye.
Sometimes, the most endearing quality in bed, is a bawdy sense of humor. :D
Ture, as long as one doesn't laugh at "the mighty sword"! LOL! ;)
As I said elsewhere, quote Randy Newman to me all you like. "Why must everyone laugh at my mighty sword?!"
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Pansy Faye.
Sometimes, the most endearing quality in bed, is a bawdy sense of humor. :D
I hear you on that! Heck, I'll bet that those four liberated women on "Sex and the City" (but most especially, Samantha), not to mention all of those numerous paramours of various and sundry P'sOTUS, would wholeheartedly attest to the positive benefits of laughter in the bedroom.
And, I reaize that they lived several decades apart, but wouldn't it have been great fun to have seen those two "wild-and-crazy" Dark Shadows kids, namely Abigail Collins and Mordecai Grimes, get together in the Biblical "sense"?
I mean, with all of comedic, sexual tension, crackling between them, it would almost be like witnessing the budding romance of Mae West and Buddy Hackett!
You just like saying "POTUS", don't you? Well, so do I.
Yes, I could feel the sexual tension between Abigail and Mordecai, even across the 45 years separating them. I'll bet she taught him in Sunday school, or something, and afterward.... she taught him how to glower disapprovingly. I saw where I was going, and had to take a sharp u-turn just then!
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What was the name of the mighty sword that Aristeide flashed around? I remember he named his. I also remember, it was curvey and he threatened people with it.
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What was the name of the mighty sword that Aristeide flashed around? I remember he named his. I also remember, it was curvey and he threatened people with it.
It was a knife that he called the Dancing Girl, which later matured into the Dancing Lady. :)
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What was the name of the mighty sword that Aristeide flashed around? I remember he named his. I also remember, it was curvey and he threatened people with it.
That was Bill Clinton, I think.
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[laughing7] [laughing6] [laughing7]
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Another thought just occured to me, in those bedroom scenes where they're kissing passionately, when he breaks away from her at last, he seems almost ashamed that he was kissing her. I think he even apoligizes to her, but it's been awhile since I've watched 1795. Anyone remember this?
I think when he pulls away he is ashamed of his reaction to Angelique, he even admits to her "I admit you are difficult to resist, I lost control of myself for a moment," so I think that does show that he was afraid/ashamed of the feelings Angelique brought out in him.....but the ironic part is that once all the hatred he felt for her was gone it had masked a lasting attraction that blossomed into love.
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but the ironic part is that once all the hatred he felt for her was gone it had masked a lasting attraction that blossomed into love.
I have no problem w/the ending of 1840 where he admits to Angelique as she's dying that he DOES love her-there's such a thin line between love & hate that this is easy to believe, but for him to say that she was the ONLY one he loved, that I don't buy. I think he loved both Angelique and Josette, equally but in different ways, and I think that's where the main conflict in his life always was.
Then of course there's Julia, I think in his own way he loved her too, but not as much as the other two, which is probably why he never returned her feelings for him. I was just watching boxset 10 last night and they are getting ready to do the experiment and when Maggie goes missing, Julia offers to be the life force, but he refuses, and not just because he doesn't trust Jeff to run the experiment. He's worried Julia might die during it. That's got to qualify as SOMETHING like love, right? ;)
Not sure just how much he truly loved Vicki, was it love, or jealousy that Burke, then Jeff, got her? Was she just the "unobtainable girl"? The challenge he couldn't win? Don't know...As for Roxanne, well, more than anything I think he was trying to convince himself he DIDN'T love Angelique in 1840 and Roxanne was his escape perhaps?
Just rambling now...LOL! :P
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I can buy into him still being attracted to Angelique in 1795 after their fling, but there's no way I can buy into his supposed "love" for her at the end of the series, after all that she's done to him and his family and loved ones. I personally don't think he ever loved Angelique, he was just attracted to her and he paid for it. I believe he truly loved Josette, and I think he grew to love Victoria, especially when he let her go to be with Peter because he knew that was what she wanted. I think he came to love Julia, though in a different way, and valued their friendship. Those things help make it impossible for me to swallow him declaring his love for Angelique in 1840. It doesn't work for me and I see it as a writing blunder.
Julia99 - Julia as a virgin? I admit I've never thought about that, but looking over the course of the series, I can see how one could possibly come to that conclusion. I think it's safe to say that she likely dedicated her life to her career before becoming involved with Barnabas, so a relationship with someone is probably something that she never experienced.
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Another thought just occured to me, in those bedroom scenes where they're kissing passionately, when he breaks away from her at last, he seems almost ashamed that he was kissing her. I think he even apoligizes to her, but it's been awhile since I've watched 1795. Anyone remember this?
I think when he pulls away he is ashamed of his reaction to Angelique, he even admits to her "I admit you are difficult to resist, I lost control of myself for a moment," so I think that does show that he was afraid/ashamed of the feelings Angelique brought out in him.....
Hi, Miranda. It's nice to see you.
He did apologize to Angelique and seemed ashamed that he got carried away (he turned his back to her... and actually, he walked so far into the corner when he turned away that it looks like he was giving himself a "time out," lol :P).
but the ironic part is that once all the hatred he felt for her was gone it had masked a lasting attraction that blossomed into love.
Masked a lasting attraction? If he hadn't felt lust for Angelique, he would never have behaved as he did in Martinique and in the scene in the servants' quarters that BuzzH described. I seriously question that he held onto any of that physical attraction when it's what set off the chain of events that led to her punishing him through the centuries.
Barnabas'Bride perfectly stated my feelings for what occurred at the end of 1840. I question that he could get over Angelique's brand of punishment so easily.
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no cold showers then, so a "time out" had to do.....
I think BC going for Angelique at the end had little to do with Martinique. I don't think that short fling would create anything lasting. I think it's all the grappling, and shared battles and nightmares over centuries, some on opposite sides, some together. She's the only one who could understand the depraved side of him, as well as the better side. Julia comes down on him the moment he even thinks about going out for blood. Julia's right, but he needs comprehension not moral direction... he's got enough guilt already.
Angelique up until late 1840 understood only the negative part of him. When she also came to understand the positive, that made her the most complete companion and confidant he'd ever had. They were alike. Plus, he probably remembered a few good moves that worked on Martinique, that he could pull out of mothballs.
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I don't see Julia coming down on him for needing blood, at least not anymore than he comes down on himself various times in the show. She's horrified when he's turned back into a vampire, she's concerned for those he might hurt....but she's also concerned for him and horrified because she knows how horrified/miserable he is under the curse. In the end, she would stay beside him for the rest of her life if he was a vampire or not. She was willing to accept him as he was. She showed that time and time again. Julia comprehended Barnabas better than Angelique did, IMO.
Angelique should definitely understand the negative part of him. She created it. That's why I can't accept Barnabas coming to love her. She's responsible for that part of him - the part of him that he spends almost the entire series loathing. And, out of nowhere, he suddenly "loves" her? It just makes no sense to me. He has worked with her when forced to, but he never shows any signs through out the series that he feels anything close to love for her. And that makes sense to me, given all that she did to him and many, many other people he loved.
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And, out of nowhere, he suddenly "loves" her? It just makes no sense to me.
I think the writers were simply trying to appease those fans that wanted these two together. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Jonathan & Lara had the best onscreen "couple" chemistry on DS IMHO, & I think this is why so many fans wanted B & A together. I also feel they were setting all of us up to accept the Bramwell/Catherine storyline/romance. Let's remember that it was him seeing Bramwell & Catherine together in PT that caused him to think he loved Angelique. Seeing his PT son w/a woman who was Angelique's clone, and seeing his strong love for her etc...got him thinking that he loved Angelique the way Bramwell loved Catherine.
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I can see your point about 1841 PT and it could be true. But Bramwell and Catherine were not Barnabas and Angelique and they had nothing to do with Barnabas and Angelique. If that's what the writers had in mind, it didn't work, at least for me. If Bramwell and Catherine were placed together so they could have JF and LP in a romance, then Barnabas realizing he "loves" Angelique is utterly uneccessary to me. Throughout the show they had established Barnabas's hatred for her, how he longs to be free of her as well as his curse. To throw it all away and disregard the established character of Barnabas to set up a new story that is completely separate from the current one is just plain rediculous in my eyes.
I think JF and LP worked well as adversaries and that's where the "chemistry" comes from. I think it's easier to identify "chemistry" between two people who hate each other and/or are constantly in conflict with each other, because conflict and/or hatred is interesting to watch and it seems that it often gets labeled as "chemistry". The two actors worked well together, but I think they worked well with many other people in the cast too. That doesn't mean Barnabas should suddenly love Angelique at the end of the series when nothing has been previously established on the show to make it even slightly believable. IMHO.
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Ah, but we do see SOME precedences of Barnabas having some affection for Angelique pre 1840---in 1795 he admits to her when he albeit reluctantly agrees to marry her that he "did care (for Angelique) long before he realized he loved Josette." Barnabas actually admits this. Also, while reluctant to marry Angelique, he did keep his promise and even defied his father to do so, and if you can see in the early marriage scenes before he finds out Angelique is a witch, Barnabas is quite solicitious of his wife and I think was willing to make an honest go of the marriage, though of course Angelique put the kibosh on that by her irrational jealousy of Vicki and her trying to frame her for witchcraft, which gradually leads to the end of her hard won marriage.
Barnabas also goes to Angelique for help time and time again, so he is drawn to her in some way, and I don't think it is always because she is the last resort, if he totally and irrecocably despised her, he would have done everything he could to avoid her. I think Barnabas feelings for Angelique wax and wane between loathing and some affection, Angelique's from sincere love to obsessive jealousy and anger.
He certainly comes to Angelique for help during the Leviathans, and is solicitous of her when she leaves Sky, but then almost immediately has to run out to warn Maggie about Nicholas, not a very gallant thing to do...
I don't maintain that Barnabas always loved Angelique, but rather that he GREW to love her in 1840 once she reclaimed her humanity, as perhaps he again saw the beautiful young girl that he had first been attracted to and by his own admission cared for on some level when he met her on Martinique..
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Sounds like some of you are suggesting there was a little "Steve/Rachel/Alice" in "Barnabas/Angelique/Josette", and that may very well be true. A man attracted to two women on opposite ends of the spectrum -- torn between his love for one woman and his lust for the other.
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Not sure just how much he truly loved Vicki, was it love, or jealousy that Burke, then Jeff, got her? Was she just the "unobtainable girl"? The challenge he couldn't win? Don't know...As for Roxanne, well, more than anything I think he was trying to convince himself he DIDN'T love Angelique in 1840 and Roxanne was his escape perhaps?
In Dallas, JR's wife Sue Ellen observes that to JR, the 'chase' is the attraction and once he gets the woman he wants, he gets bored and so he's off to find a new conquest. So the 'chase' is the thing I think very much with Quentin. Also Barnabas to a degree, at least as far as Vicki is concerned.
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Sounds like some of you are suggesting there was a little "Steve/Rachel/Alice" in "Barnabas/Angelique/Josette", and that may very well be true. A man attracted to two women on opposite ends of the spectrum -- torn between his love for one woman and his lust for the other.
Ah, Another World. Great comparison, though the "good" Alice was the blonde and Rachel, the one with a darker soul, was brunette. Thank goodness the DS writers didn't have Angelique get pregnant. ;)
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Ah, Another World. Great comparison, though the "good" Alice was the blonde and Rachel, the one with a darker soul, was brunette.
As I've mentioned before, I love how DS turned that very prevalent soap convention of the time on its head by having the blondes be the evil ones (i.e. the Angeliques and Lauras) and the brunettes the innocent ones (i.e. Vicki, Rachel, Daphne).
Thank goodness the DS writers didn't have Angelique get pregnant.
Oh, I don't know - it might have been very interesting if a character had been conceived as the demon spawn of Angelique and Barnabas - particularly if they'd put a similar twist on SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome) as Angel did by having the baby disappear into a hell dimension, where time was very different from our own, only to emerge a few months later as a young adult. Just think of the amazing storyline possibilties there might have been if Barnabas had had to deal with his own evil son or daughter. Or it could have been even more interesting if the character had been conflicted and there had been a battle to see whether evil or good would have won out, with Angelique on one side and Barnabas on the other. The battle might have raged within the character for years.
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Ah, but we do see SOME precedences of Barnabas having some affection for Angelique pre 1840---in 1795 he admits to her when he albeit reluctantly agrees to marry her that he "did care (for Angelique) long before he realized he loved Josette." Barnabas actually admits this. Also, while reluctant to marry Angelique, he did keep his promise and even defied his father to do so, and if you can see in the early marriage scenes before he finds out Angelique is a witch, Barnabas is quite solicitious of his wife and I think was willing to make an honest go of the marriage, though of course Angelique put the kibosh on that by her irrational jealousy of Vicki and her trying to frame her for witchcraft, which gradually leads to the end of her hard won marriage
Just a very small bit. In 1795 I remember Barnabas telling Angelique that their relationship now would be "out of the question" and his answer IS ambiguous. But, it's grasping for points here and there. I really believe Barnabas was simply trying to let Angelique off easy, not hurt her feelings and do the (a little late albeit) gentlemanly thing in easing her frustrations. There were also hints Angelique may have wanted Barnabas purely for the reason that Josette loved him. The 1795 line has Angelique telling Ben that Josette had many "suitors" (not sure about the spelling here) but that Josette only loved Barnabas and that Angelique stole many of her suitors. Also, the playing field wasn't too fair for Josette considering she was kept in the dark for all of the series (except for some hints on the 1897/1795 flashback) re the Angelique/Barnabas mess. I think Josette held up well, Barnabas repeatedly stated to all concerned that he truly loved Josette. But, Angelique simply "did not want it to be so". Barnabas and Angelique were also given more screen time, better writing than Josette/Barnabas (except in the 1897/1795 flashback) and Josette dissappears quickly from the scene. Considering again, Josette held up pretty well and Barnabas/Josette are still my fav couple.
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Thank goodness the DS writers didn't have Angelique get pregnant. ;)
True, they did that when they had Bramwell impregnate Catherine, LOL! ;) Speaking of, I watched the last 4 eps last night and you really can see this STRONG love between Bramwell & Catherine, like when they are locked in the room and he's desperately trying to get her out so their child will survive etc...It's almost painful to watch how they pine for each other, when Catherine throws herself at Morgan's feet and pleads for Bramwell's life etc...I just love that much maligned storyline! Hey, that rhymes! ;D
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Oh, I don't know - it might have been very interesting if a character had been conceived as the demon spawn of Angelique and Barnabas - particularly if they'd put a similar twist on SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome) as Angel did by having the baby disappear into a hell dimension, where time was very different from our own, only to emerge a few months later as a young adult. Just think of the amazing storyline possibilties there might have been if Barnabas had had to deal with his own evil son or daughter. Or it could have been even more interesting if the character had been conflicted and there had been a battle to see whether evil or good would have won out, with Angelique on one side and Barnabas on the other. The battle might have raged within the character for years.
Ooh, I like the storyline potential here MB! Again, sounds like it would make a very interesting fan fic story! Writers?? ;)
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Barnabas and Angelique were also given more screen time, better writing than Josette/Barnabas (except in the 1897/1795 flashback) and Josette dissappears quickly from the scene. Considering again, Josette held up pretty well and Barnabas/Josette are still my fav couple.
Very true, Jonathan & Lara got some GREAT scenes to play together, particularly love the scene in 1897 in the tower room, their first scene together in that plotline if I recall correctly. The writing is fantastic and the acting is spot on, quite a surprise actually considering Frid's love of the teleprompter. But he doesn't falter or fumble once, and doesn't look at or for the teleprompter. He must have spent ALL NIGHT memorizing that wonderful scene, it shows in his performance! But again, this goes to this electifying chemistry they had together. He really can play the hot blooded hetro when he's in a scene w/her, particularly during 1841 PT.
Still, being the romantic I am, I love Barnabas w/Josetete too Stefan, they were just so SWEET together, like the popular high school couple that everyone loves or something. When he dies, and she practically throws herself over him, I just CRY my eyes out! :'(
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Ah, but we do see SOME precedences of Barnabas having some affection for Angelique pre 1840---in 1795 he admits to her when he albeit reluctantly agrees to marry her that he "did care (for Angelique) long before he realized he loved Josette." Barnabas actually admits this. Also, while reluctant to marry Angelique, he did keep his promise and even defied his father to do so, and if you can see in the early marriage scenes before he finds out Angelique is a witch, Barnabas is quite solicitious of his wife and I think was willing to make an honest go of the marriage, though of course Angelique put the kibosh on that by her irrational jealousy of Vicki and her trying to frame her for witchcraft, which gradually leads to the end of her hard won marriage.
I think he was touched by Angelique's willingness to marry him when he warned quite her clearly that he would always love Josette. At that point, in his eyes, Josette had been lost to him. She was a widow, but she had married his brother. He could see that Angelique loved him and he was grateful to her for "saving" Sarah. He would never have loved her as he did Josette, IMO, but he would've tried to make a life with her. He took marriage seriously. When he finds out who the witch is, any caring or affection he had for Angelique is gone and rightly so. He realizes that Josette never loved Jeremiah and that Angelique was responsible for all of his and his family's troubles and tries to kill her and have the life with Josette she had taken from him. I don't think any other feeling but hatred existed for her inside of him once he found out what she was and what she had done. And it isn't like she didn't fan the flame of hatred in his heart by tormenting Josette off the cliff, going after Victoria and his family in the present time, wanting to place the curse back on him, always trying to trap him into a life with her, etc...
Barnabas also goes to Angelique for help time and time again, so he is drawn to her in some way, and I don't think it is always because she is the last resort, if he totally and irrecocably despised her, he would have done everything he could to avoid her. I think Barnabas feelings for Angelique wax and wane between loathing and some affection, Angelique's from sincere love to obsessive jealousy and anger.
I believe he sincerely wished to avoid her. In Leviathan, his family was in very grave danger. We've seen at this point that he cares about his family, so it's not unreasonable to me that he would look to Angelique for help because of her powers, but that doesn't mean he doesn't still despise her, IMO. When it comes to saving his family or someone he loves, he's willing to deal with Angelique. We did see that. But that doesn't mean there's any affection there. It just means he'll do what's neccessary to help those at Collinwood.
He certainly comes to Angelique for help during the Leviathans, and is solicitous of her when she leaves Sky, but then almost immediately has to run out to warn Maggie about Nicholas, not a very gallant thing to do...
I think he had a moment of pity for her during the Leviathan storyline after Sky, remembering what she'd told him in 1897. Pity doesn't have to equal affection or caring.
IMO, when he looked back on Martinique, he thought of the dalliance that cost he and his loved ones their lives. Considering the way it haunted him through the centuries in the form of Angelique always going after him either directly or indirectly through his family and friends, I can't imagine it being any other way, and the last minute turn around in 1840 didn't convince me. It honestly just made me want to throw my TV out of the window. :-X :P
BuzzH - I don't see Barnabas and Josette's relationship as a high school one. I think it was very real and that they would've been very happy together had they married. Their love for each other is but one of the many reasons I can't see Barnabas ever loving Angelique. I'm very much a Barnabas/Josette fan, and I wish they the writers had done more with the character of Josette.
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BuzzH - I don't see Barnabas and Josette's relationship as a high school one. I think it was very real and that they would've been very happy together had they married. Their love for each other is but one of the many reasons I can't see Barnabas ever loving Angelique. I'm very much a Barnabas/Josette fan, and I wish they the writers had done more with the character of Josette.
LOL! I didn't mean to imply that I thought their love for each other was in any way childish, it was definately REAL and strong and I too could see them very happily married w/several children. What I meant was, they were SWEET together, the kind of couple that would make anyone near them go, "Awwww" ;) The kind of couple that EVERYONE loves, whether they are the top high school couple, college sweethearts, or a favorite soap couple like Luke & Laura from GH. ;D
***SPOILER*** (I don't know how to white out this next part)
[spoiler]I'm more than a little pissed that they had her commit suicide when he fails to show up at the Old House because he's waylayed by the Levithans in the woods.
In my opinion they should have had him meet her, then while they are in the woods together, have the Leviathans abduct her to make him do their bidding. I would have preferred that than having him under their influence. I think that would have been more interesting to have him basically acting normally, but secretive, even w/Julia, his most trusted friend, when he returned to the presence. Think of all the wonderful angst for Jonathan to play with Barnabas NOT being able to be honest w/Julia for fear the Leviathans would kill Josette.[/spoiler]
Of course you would have the problem of KLS playing identical characters in the present however, sigh...And again, I think it goes back to that old chemistry lesson, LOL! While KLS and Jon DID have some chemistry, it was nothing compared to he and Lara, IMHO anyway. ;)
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(I don't know how to white out this next part)
Just surround the text with these tags: [spoiler][/spoiler]in that order. :)
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I think one of the best scenes, bar none, between Barnabas and Angelique is in the 1968 storyline when she comes to the Old House as Cassandra after Nicholas has punished her, terminally, for the failure of the Dream Curse and her unwillingness to be a Team Player in Nicky's domain.
It's such a poignant scene, and I think they were both being honest with one another. One of the few times that was likely the case.
I can't agree with the idea of Angelique as a one-man woman. I think she took her relationships with both Quentin and, subsequently, Sky, quite seriously.
Neither man was suited for the role she wished him to play in her life, anymore than Barnabas was. Her problems began because she persisted in seeing these failures as blows to her own pride and ego, rather than incompatibilities that had at least something to do with the TYPE of man she persisted in choosing.
The end of her story and Barnabas' in 1840 is really upsetting, if I bother to think about it for more than about 5 seconds, because it's such a slap in the face of the richly established histories of the two characters up to that point. Lela Swift tried to get around this by having the writers present an Angelique who had not yet lived any of the events subsequent to 1795, which was simply absurd, and again, insulting to viewers who had so much invested in the story at that point.
Sorry to natter on. such a topic...
G.
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Just surround the text with these tags: [spoiler][/spoiler]in that order. :)
Cool, thanks Midnite
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I can't agree with the idea of Angelique as a one-man woman. I think she took her relationships with both Quentin and, subsequently, Sky, quite seriously.
I don't think she took her "relationship" with Quentin seriously. She used him.
I think she did take her marriage to Sky seriously though. (why, I don't know - doesn't seem like her type)
[idontknow]
[wave]
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I think they had A go for Q in 1897 just to repeat 1795 with BC and A, and to repeat something that worked. I think they probably meant it to be sincere on A's part at the time, but changed their minds when they saw it wasn't going anywhere, once it had served its other purpose, in setting off Beth's jealousy so she could finish off/not finish off Q.
I think Julia did keep coming down hard on BC every time there was any hint of there being victims. Of his, I mean. Of his vampirism. She didn't turn him in to the police or anything... [spoiler](Wait she did... not not yet!)[/spoiler] but for his own good as well as for others, she kept a sharp semi-judgemental eye on him. Of course A created the evil in him, but still, who else would ever understand it but her? BC wrought a lot of havoc, and he also had a certain amount of free will, it turned out. They're alike.
What might be getting in the way of understanding the possibility of this relationship, and how it ended, is that A and BC just have to be radically, fundamentally different people than any of us on this board could possibly ever be. We're talking about how romance and attraction and hatred work in the context of our fairly comfortable, unchallenged lives (unless any of us are outlaws or warlocks or anything). We're talking about how we would feel or react. But their situations have little or nothing in common with ours. (The stretches of time involved change everything, just by themselves.) One reason we watch shows like this one is to experience experiences we have no access to, and part of that is to stretch our imaginations, and try to see how people this different and who are taking so much more of a bizarre, extreme, surreal battering from life think, feel, and react.
Even with Julia around, BC is alone, more so than most people could ever imagine. And if BC can come around to forgiving himself, I think, after all that's happened, he could finally forgive Angelique. Life takes those strange twists and turns.
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Early Maggie
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Then of course there's Julia, I think in his own way he loved her too, but not as much as the other two, which is probably why he never returned her feelings for him. I was just watching boxset 10 last night and they are getting ready to do the experiment and when Maggie goes missing, Julia offers to be the life force, but he refuses, and not just because he doesn't trust Jeff to run the experiment. He's worried Julia might die during it. That's got to qualify as SOMETHING like love, right? ;)
You're so right, IMO, and state the case wonderfully. The tendency is to dismiss any love that is not romantic love as somehow being the booby prize in terms of relationships. You can love a friend (even one of whatever sex you are attracted to), in my case a guy, to the point where you would do just about anything for, including give your life if it came to that. You love that person. That kind of love can't be dismissed as being unimportant. While Julia might have wanted Barnabas in a romantic way, they still had a bond of friendship many would envy. She didn't get what she wanted but I by no means feel sorry for her.
Nancy
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[Barnabas'Bride perfectly stated my feelings for what occurred at the end of 1840. I question that he could get over Angelique's brand of punishment so easily.
Yes, that whole scene was a little hard to buy from what I remember. Can we really expect Barnabas to say:
"Angelique, I have loved you all along and was too blind to realize it. I know you put this curse upon me, were responsible for killing my sister, putting a spell on my financee so that she would marry my uncle, casting various spells that created a terrible chain reaction that eventually killed my aunt and eventually my mother but I don't believe in hanging on to petty things . . ." ::)
Nancy
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Neither man was suited for the role she wished him to play in her life, anymore than Barnabas was. Her problems began because she persisted in seeing these failures as blows to her own pride and ego, rather than incompatibilities that had at least something to do with the TYPE of man she persisted in choosing.
I'm not sure any man could have suited for the role Angelique whished them to play in her life. I honestly don't believe, as she was originally written, that Angelique was capable of love. Her power forever corrupted her. Let's face it, she was a borderline psychopath, capable of cold blooded murder to achieve her aims. Targeting Sarah as a means of revenge forever tainted her in my eyes. She was also a liar and the most dangerous of liars as she appeared to believed her own lies and that she was capable of being a normal woman with a normal life. Let's say, after a series of lies and deceits, finegeling Barnabas into marrying her, that Barnabas, in his most gentlemanly fashion, tried to make it work. How much time would it take for him to discover that Angelique was indeed a witch who took great pleasure in placing curses to get her own way, that, starting from day one, Angelique had already lied to him over and over. How would Barnabas feel that to protect her cover Angelique by witchcarft and spells tried to get Vickie burned as a wtich, to kill her outright. A terrified girl who never did a thing to her. Man, this woman was a murderess plain and simply. How would it be possible for Barnabas to love her? How could anyone love her? I noticed that by 1897 Angelique took on an almost waxy marble look. Incapable, because of her own power and how it separated her from ordinary humans. Only a fellow witch or warlock might have understood. That's why it was so refreshing to see Angelique and Nicholas Blair interact, nice to see them connect so easily.
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"Angelique, I have loved you all along and was too blind to realize it. I know you put this curse upon me, were responsible for killing my sister, putting a spell on my financee so that she would marry my uncle, casting various spells that created a terrible chain reaction that eventually killed my aunt and eventually my mother but I don't believe in hanging on to petty things . . ." ::)
That made me laugh out loud! You've stated so well, tongue in cheeck exactly what those NOT in the Angie camp believe . .not to say those of us in the Julia camp think they were destined for one another but that .. well. . .just as you said above. . the **petty** things Angie did would always be there.
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I think she did take her marriage to Sky seriously though. (why, I don't know - doesn't seem like her type)
Oh, I don't know. He was gorgeous, sexy and RICH! What else could she want? LOL! Wasn't that her type all along? ;)
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I think she did take her marriage to Sky seriously though. (why, I don't know - doesn't seem like her type)
Oh, I don't know. He was gorgeous, sexy and RICH! What else could she want? LOL! Wasn't that her type all along? ;)
And WOODEN! His acting, anyway....
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And WOODEN! His acting, anyway....
He was pretty wooden on Dynasty too. But who cares, he was "eye candy", LOL! ;)
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He was pretty wooden on Dynasty too. But who cares, he was "eye candy", LOL!
Apparently the producers of Guiding Light cared because they fired him because his acting was so wooden. And the soap press cared, too, because they actually cheered the firing. [wink2]
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Ever since I heard of Geoffrey Scott's fascination for Grayson Hall, I've found a warm spot inside for the man.
And that's all I propose to say on THAT topic.
G.