DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '02 I => Topic started by: Brian on April 07, 2002, 05:11:21 AM
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Julia99 says Why [do] gay men love Grayson so much? My three closest friends, gay men, all love her. . .Why does she ring our bell?. . .
For me, Grayson is the epitomy of the strong woman (as opposed to the victim), and most of her performances are often "larger than life" -- sometime "camp," but sometimes realistic -- in the same way that performances by Bette Davis, Joan Crawford, Carol Channing, and even Judy Garland (and numerous other woman stars) are real and larger than life (and sometimes life is "camp."
I can't give any logical reason why Grayson is a favorite of mine. Perhaps some others on this board -- gay or straight -- can offer their comments.
Brian
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I adore her intelligence, I adore her candor, I adore her wit, and I adore it when she occassionally becomes melodramatic.
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Well let's at least have a few pictures on this thread. .. (http://home.earthlink.net/~rjjamison/_uimages/GraysonChoker.jpg)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~rjjamison/_uimages/vs-grayson6.jpg )
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Beautiful pictures, Julia99. Grayson looks lovely. She looked so elegant with her hair up that way too. :)
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Hard to pinpoint actually. It's kind of like asking why you like Chinese food...you just do!
But part of it I'm sure is because:
1. She's incredibly camp on the show. She delivers the single most campy performance in the entire series. She's also frequently bitchy and snappy which is absolutely hilarious.
2. She commands the screen. She becomes the focus of every single scene she's in, regardless of how it's scripted. She can turn the simple, quiet act of making a phone call a hilarious, dramatic event.
3. She plays Julia, who as we all know, is in love with Barnabas, a man who doesn't love her. Understanding that, she both waits in the wings and settles for being a friend instead. I'm sure many gay men have had the same experience with a girl that's in love with them...and have played the other side of the coin, being in love with a person who is unreachable (ie: not gay) and settling for friendship.
4. She's not a young ingenue- she's middle aged. Kind of in the Agnes Moorehead way. Plus she's not conventionally beautiful. She has fairly exotic features. There's a respect that comes with being successful while not being a Hollywood-type.
5. Ms. Hall was a terrific actress. Her performances were varied and multilayered. Her role in 'Night of the Iguana' is miles away from her roles on DS. The same goes for 'Satan in High Heels' and 'Night of Dark Shadows.' She's campy in DS and Gargoyles because she felt it suited the material, plus they kept encouraging her to play her emotions big. When given film roles, where she would be projected on an 80 foot screen, she knew to downplay her emotions and to have moments of quiet command and subtlety as well. It's this versatility that makes her so fascinating. I'd love to have seen one of her stage performances.
Someone new to DS might mistake her acting as 'bad,' but it's TV acting, Soap Opera acting. It's a different style, with different demands. That said, when she wanted to go over-the-top, boy, she went!
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Didn't she play a lesbian in "The Children's Hour" on Broadway? Not sure.
Gerard
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Didn't she play a lesbian in "The Children's Hour" on Broadway? Not sure.
Gerard
I haven't seen the Children's Hour in her acting credits. Check out the writeup at: http://hometown.aol.com/lynn1dave/index.htm
But her character in Iguana was a repressed Lesbian, that was the crux of the situation. Her duel with Richard Burton over Sue Lyon.
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. Her performances were varied and multilayered. Her role in 'Night of the Iguana' is miles away from her roles on DS. The same goes for 'Satan in High Heels' and 'Night of Dark Shadows.!
Enjoyed Darren's post here, as well as J99's pictures. Although I am neither male nor gay, I just love Grayson Hall. There is something about her that is just...intriguing. I understand she didn't particularly enjoy her experience filming either "Satan in High Heels"
or "End of the Road" (about as far away from repressed Dr. Julia Hoffman as you can get, lol), but I (for one) am grateful some of these performances have been preserved on tape. Since GH was primarily a stage actress, we'll never be able to access most of what she did professionally. I've seen a few photos of her on stage, wish there were more...
MrsJ.
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I think part of Grayson's appeal is in the primary character she played. Dr. Julia Hoffman was strong, intelligent, open-minded, vulnerable, and unconditionally accepting and protective of someone who constantly feared not being able to fit in.
The other part of her appeal, based on the few interview tapes of her and stories I've read about her, is that she was, off-camera, a genuinely open-minded, intelligent, witty person. There seemed to be an adventurous, Auntie Mame kind of spirit about her. I was impressed with an article written by one of her fan club presidents about how she had given him her home phone number and encouraged him to call her with questions ... COLLECT!
It seems that anyone could feel "safe" around Grayson, or certainly Julia, but perhaps these aspects strike a chord among gay men.
Ben
(who regrets that Grayson never lived to attend a Fest -- I think she would have had a blast AND have brought the house down)
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Enjoyed Darren's post here, as well as J99's pictures. Although I am neither male nor gay, I just love Grayson Hall. There is something about her that is just...intriguing. I understand she didn't particularly enjoy her experience filming either "Satan in High Heels" or "End of the Road" (about as far away from repressed Dr. Julia Hoffman as you can get, lol), but I (for one) am grateful some of these performances have been preserved on tape. Since GH was primarily a stage actress, we'll never be able to access most of what she did professionally. I've seen a few photos of her on stage, wish there were more...
I agree with you 100% mrsJ. I'm also neither male nor gay, but for me Grayson Hall IS Dark Shadows. I loved the show, but I am sure that I would not be still following it after all these years if not for Grayson. And I really don't know why. Even Richard Burton is supposed to have said of her that when she is on screen the audience doesn't look at anyone else.
And I heard David Selby acknowledge at a Fest that there was no one like Grayson: no one looks like her and no one sounds like her. (Although, personally I do think Eileen Heckart came close.)
Thanks, J99, for posing this question. :)
Bette
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I agree with Bette, I am neither male or gay but Grayson was the greatest, if she would have ever left DS i would have stopped watching even back then when I was 12 years old. i agree Grayson IS DS.
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Lots of interesting posts about Ms. Hall. ;)
In addition to her work on DS, I have tapes (or DVDs) of her work in NIGHT OF THE IGUANA, SATAN IN HIGH HEELS, END OF THE ROAD, NIGHT GALLERY and GARGOYLES (and I've seen her work in THAT DARN CAT, THE GREAT ICE RIP-OFF and ADAM AT 6 A.M.) Perhaps the most important aspect of her work to me is that she truly "commits" to the character and situation--i.e., because she believes it, we believe it.
That's the mark of a great actor.
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Great idea for a topic, and fascinating to read various fans' perspectives on Grayson's multi-faceted, many-layered appeal. It is always a pleasant surprise to me to see the kind of passion Grayson arouses in her fans. For a long time, Grayson fans were a kind of "underground" in fandom--for some reason or other, the status quo in fandom tended to laugh at Grayson and her characters rather than adulate or honor her. It is always remarkable, though, whenever there is an honoring of DS actors who have passed on at a Festival, the kind of ovation Grayson receives whenever a clip of her is shown. Her fans have a truly passionate loyalty to her memory.
I think of Grayson as bringing another level of "the diva factor" to DS. There was already a kind of Old Hollywood diva energy on the show with Joan Bennett's presence (just look at the impossibly glamorous costume Liz was given to wear on that first episode). I wrote somewhere that Grayson may well have been the first Oscar (tm) nominated thespian to perform a regular role on a soap. Even though I think those statuettes are a dubious barometer (at best) for an actor's prowess, there's no denying the kind of prestige placement in the contest commands.
Some commentators have tried to explain gay men's love of Grayson, and especially Julia, with the rather simplistic explanation that Dr. Julia Hoffman dressed, moved, and wore makeup like a drag queen. I don't agree, though sometimes the wardrobe and makeup they gave her went way beyond over the top (we need a special topic for "the scary awfulness of Dr. Julia Hoffman's wardrobe"). I think the reasons why gay male viewers relate to Julia is because first of all, nearly ALL of us have been in the position of having to be regarded as a "friend" by a man we'd rather relate to as a lover. The cluelessness of Barnabas as to Julia's feelings (although he DOES occasionally acknowledge her feels and even more rarely hint that he does reciprocate them deep down) mirrors the cluelessness many of us knew from our str8 best friend that we had some crazy crush on in high school. I agree too with Brian that sometimes real life is campy. Hysterically so.
A friend recently told me a story that illustrates just how Grayson can hold an entire room captivated with her performance, even on "the night of nights." I had lent a copy of the "Grayson solo" MPI tape to a friend, who then lent it to another friend, who watched it with his housemate, who fell in love with Grayson at first sight. This was a guy who was posted in Germany during the Sixties and never got to see DS as a result. Well, T. insisted upon playing this video at the house's Oscar party to all their friends. This entire roomful of largely gay men were completely absorbed by Grayson's performance. They did watch the Oscars, but spent a large part of the evening taking turns doing impressions of Grayson's acting and discussing their favorite moments in her scenes!
All the best, Steve
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Great idea for a topic, and fascinating to read various fans' perspectives on Grayson's multi-faceted, many-layered appeal. It is always a pleasant surprise to me to see the kind of passion Grayson arouses in her fans. For a long time, Grayson fans were a kind of "underground" in fandom--for some reason or other, the status quo in fandom tended to laugh at Grayson and her characters rather than adulate or honor her. It is always remarkable, though, whenever there is an honoring of DS actors who have passed on at a Festival, the kind of ovation Grayson receives whenever a clip of her is shown. Her fans have a truly passionate loyalty to her memory.
I think of Grayson as bringing another level of "the diva factor" to DS. There was already a kind of Old Hollywood diva energy on the show with Joan Bennett's presence (just look at the impossibly glamorous costume Liz was given to wear on that first episode). I wrote somewhere that Grayson may well have been the first Oscar (tm) nominated thespian to perform a regular role on a soap. Even though I think those statuettes are a dubious barometer (at best) for an actor's prowess, there's no denying the kind of prestige placement in the contest commands.
Some commentators have tried to explain gay men's love of Grayson, and especially Julia, with the rather simplistic explanation that Dr. Julia Hoffman dressed, moved, and wore makeup like a drag queen. I don't agree, though sometimes the wardrobe and makeup they gave her went way beyond over the top (we need a special topic for "the scary awfulness of Dr. Julia Hoffman's wardrobe"). I think the reasons why gay male viewers relate to Julia is because first of all, nearly ALL of us have been in the position of having to be regarded as a "friend" by a man we'd rather relate to as a lover. The cluelessness of Barnabas as to Julia's feelings (although he DOES occasionally acknowledge her feels and even more rarely hint that he does reciprocate them deep down) mirrors the cluelessness many of us knew from our str8 best friend that we had some crazy crush on in high school. I agree too with Brian that sometimes real life is campy. Hysterically so.
A friend recently told me a story that illustrates just how Grayson can hold an entire room captivated with her performance, even on "the night of nights." I had lent a copy of the "Grayson solo" MPI tape to a friend, who then lent it to another friend, who watched it with his housemate, who fell in love with Grayson at first sight. This was a guy who was posted in Germany during the Sixties and never got to see DS as a result. Well, T. insisted upon playing this video at the house's Oscar party to all their friends. This entire roomful of largely gay men were completely absorbed by Grayson's performance. They did watch the Oscars, but spent a large part of the evening taking turns doing impressions of Grayson's acting and discussing their favorite moments in her scenes!
All the best, Steve
have to agree with all you said about her Steve
on the DS cd i have when she is on the Ron
Barry show you can just tell how much fun she had with the role She is always been one of the reasons I loved the show !
jennifer
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I have a question concerning Grayson Hall..........oh and by the way, I really enjoyed reading the posts here about her.
Are those long eye lashes in the second picture really hers or are they fake? Maybe she just wore a lot of Mascara ....lol
I'd do just about anything to have long eye lashes like that!!! :)
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Gothick-
Are you still intending to write a biography of Grayson Hall? I would certainly love to see one.
Jake
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Naturally, I love Grayson Hall, and I've enjoyed reading everyones comments in this thread.
A favorite "Grayson moment" of mine is on the "DS Behind the Scenes" tape. Lela Swift is talking about the cast and remarks that they were as flamboyant, or even more so, in real life as they were on the show. As she is saying this, the program cuts away from Lela to a clip of Grayson's "blood oooooozing from the mausoleum wall" scene.
A lovely tribute to a fascinating actress.
Regards,
John
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Are those long eye lashes in the second picture really hers or are they fake? Maybe she just wore a lot of Mascara ....lol
Just guessing Donna because I have absolutely no stage or screen experience (LOL) but I think false eyelashes were a standard show-biz makeup item back then (and no doubt still are but have toned down in size a bit).
As to this thread about Grayson - very interesting stuff. Just before it started I was going to ask just exactly what a "fag hag" is. I had just heard the term for the first time on Will & Grace (yeah, sheltered life I know) and though I could sort of tell based on the context (I was thinking Bette, Joan, Marlena) I wasn't totally clear on it. Well I think NOW I get it (duh).
I always liked Grayson then and now. She had a kind of endearing yet slightly domineering presence on DS. Like a cross between a schoolteacher, your mother, and that aunt everyone says is so dramatic (I have/had several of those so I know - they could drive you up a wall but were always fun to be around). In real life, I think she would have been a fascinating person to know - flamboyant, creative and most important accepting of others. I think that last quality is what her fans sense about her and may be the thing that draws them to her most. [angl]
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. . .but I think false eyelashes were a standard show-biz makeup item back then (and no doubt still are but have toned down in size a bit). . . As to this thread about Grayson . . . I was going to ask just exactly what a "fag hag" is. . .
Two comments--if we think false eyelashes are more toned down now (on daytime, at least) than 30 years ago, just check out ONE LIFE TO LIVE and the character of Lindsey, who has full makeup and eyelashes IN PRISON!!! LOL.
As for Grayson being a "fag hag". . . since I made that statement, I'd better retract it since I know nothing about her interactions with gay man. Perhaps a better way to characterize her is to say she's probably an icon for gay men--much like Bette Midler, Bette Davis, Judy Garland, etc. (and not too shabby company to be in!)
Brian
(who thinks Grayson Hall is "the bomb" [to use some modern-day lingo.])
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I was able to interview one out gay man who knew her and he confirmed that she knew A LOT of gay men. Given her love of entertaining and how many parties she hosted for theatre people, it could scarcely have been otherwise.
I think she'd have slugged you if you had asked her if she loved being a "fag hag," though. In those days, it was a term of abuse, and had NOT been reclaimed through the eyes of love as we have done now living in this shining era of peace and love for our fellow humans (yeah, right).
TTFN, Steve
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I think she'd have slugged you if you had asked her if she loved being a "fag hag," though. In those days, it was a term of abuse, ...
:-[ Since I had never heard the term until the other night on TV I had no idea it had ever had another connotation. I assumed it had always been kind of a term of endearment - in the "icon" way Brian explained. I certainly meant no offense to either Grayson, her friends or anyone else. [peace]
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I think if Grayson lived today, she would have understood the term FAG HAG....A fag hag is woman who spends all her time with gay men. My best friend really calls her self a fag hag with pride, not that she spends her time with gay men. But she knows gay men just love her. So I think Grayson would understand that. However, some people dont like the term just because what it means.
jon
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have to admit...grayson does it for me......the other side of don brisco.....it's cause i'm a lesbian trapped in a gay man's body.......
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Casper Collins: LOL at your wonderful comments.
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Grayson Hall is my favorite DS actor. That's why, in large part, I built the "Legend Of Dark Shadows" game around Julia, making her the "player character".
Why do I love her? Hmmm, because Julia is so COOL! I mean, come on, that cigarette holder in the early episodes? That horse, dry scream of hers? The campy clutching at the neck? And Magda? WHAT A SCREAM!
But it goes deeper, doesn't it? Maybe it touches a nerve in me that says Grayson, as Julia, is what a woman should be like: She took on a vampire, daring him to hurt her! She bitch-slapped Angelique! She tried to re-attach a head using 19th century medicine! Bold Julia, with bigger balls than all the DS men put together! :)
The "Legend Of Dark Shadows" Game Delelopment Page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~emeralddawn1/page18.html
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I shudder to think what would have happened to the Collins family if Julia Hoffman had not come into their lives!
I mean, you have to admit that she earned every penny of her "rent" on that room they gave her. Just start counting all the free "sedatives" she handed out plus the endless hours (ever see that ABC Movie of the Week, "The 36 hours of Dr Julia Hoffman"?) ... you'll see why Liz loved having her live on the premises!
Steve
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I was able to interview one out gay man who knew her and he confirmed that she knew A LOT of gay men. Given her love of entertaining and how many parties she hosted for theatre people, it could scarcely have been otherwise.
I think she'd have slugged you if you had asked her if she loved being a "fag hag," though. In those days, it was a term of abuse, and had NOT been reclaimed through the eyes of love as we have done now living in this shining era of peace and love for our fellow humans (yeah, right).
TTFN, Steve
you're right Steve someone once called me that because i have a lot of gay men friends and it wasn't meant in a nice way but this was about 20 years ago and didn't care then, don't care now, hey i have a lot of straight men friends too but i don't see a term for that.
jennifer
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have to admit...grayson does it for me......the other side of don brisco.....it's cause i'm a lesbian trapped in a gay man's body.......
Hey Casper just glad you're back
need more Don worshippers here :-*
jennifer
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Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd add a new message, with a little different Grayson info, to this one.
I had lunch plans with a friend this afternoon, and she brought along a couple of her co-workers to join us, one of whom was the actress who played Delilah on ONE LIFE TO LIVE back in the '80s. We chatted a bit about the show, and she mentioned the "wonderful woman who played [her] mother--Grayson Hall." She went on to briefly describe how Grayson was so much fun on the show, and that she went against the traditional soap casting of that era because she was mainly a theater person and not the usual "TV look" actor. Of course, I had to admit I now watch OLTL and had grown up on DS (a show which we had to explain to one of the younger members of our little luncheon party.) Anyway, even though Keith Prentice was an acquaintance of mine back in the early 80s, and I've met and chatted with Marie Wallace as part of my job, it was especially fun to talk with a non-DS actor about Grayson and what she was like--not to mention trading anecdotes about our work with stars and such in the entertainment industry.
Just thought I'd share. . . ;)
Brian
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Oh how I envy you! I would love to meet and talk to someone who knew Grayson and was not connected to DS. I think Grayson must have been a fascinating woman to know and I would love to hear what the actress had to say about her. :)
Bette
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Brian, This must be Shelly Burch, right? There's an interview tape (actually somebody just tape recording Grayson having lunch with a group of fans and just chatting away about every topic under the sun) which was made on August 31, 1982, where Grayson talks at great length about her work on OLTL. She mentions about Shelly Burch coming to work as her daughter Delilah and cracks, "Euphemia and Delilah ... we're quite a family!" She describes Shelly as GORGEOUS and mentions, I believe, that she had been in the musical version of 8 1/2 (entitled 9, if memory serves) and was still sort of figuring things out as an actress. Good to hear that Shelly has such good memories of working with Grayson.
Thanks again for sharing this,
Steve
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Hi, Steve.
Yes, it is Shelly Burch, and I'd love to find a copy of that tape to share with her. She "semi-retired" 10 or 12 years ago in order to have a family, but she now does stage and TV work once in a while. She's very humble, and a delightful lady--and very talented. I have to admit, during our lunch, she mentioned the "actress who played [her] mother" and could have left it at that, but she went on to name Grayson Hall--and mentioned Grayson's work in THAT DARN CAT for one of our other luncheon partners who is way too young to know DS or Grayson. I really felt I was experiencing that idea of "6 Degrees of Separation," and, I think, in Shelly's mind, Grayson represented somewhat of a star to her in her early work on OLTL. (Yes, she was in NINE, too.)
Brian