DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '05 I => Topic started by: Mysterious Benefactor on June 30, 2005, 10:20:50 PM
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I thought that title might get your attention. [wink2] But bear with me...
I've always been struck by how tough, singleminded, resolute, unshakable and determined Julia is when we're first introduced to her - particularly our first exposure to her in ep #265. However, how do those qualities gel with the Julia we will come to know who appears to be so wrapped around Barnabas' little finger that time and time again she will sublimate her own better judgement and continually acquiesce to his will. Were the the qualities we might have first attributed to Julia real? And if so, where then did they go whenever Barnabas was around? Did her love for him change her into seemingly an entirely different person? Or was the Julia as we might have initially perceived her merely a facade that the good doctor put up?
Discuss...
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Very interesting topic MB. Julia's a complex character for sure. The different (seemingly contradictory) aspects of her personality seem to emerge depending on the crisis at hand. She's got her "doctor" mode, where she's self-assured, authoritative, in control, etc.
Then at other times she's like a limp noodle when it comes to Barnabas and his wants and needs of the moment. Sometimes it seems she's acting out of fear, and at other times, out of love.
I really like her when she's pissed at him - as in some of the Leviathan time period. She doesn't hesitate to let him know, and won't take any of his crap.
Actually, I find her multi-dimensional character one of the most believable on the show.
It would be interesting if some of y'all could talk about some things she said and did in the earlier episodes. I don't remember any of it and don't have much of anything on tape prior to #700.
Was she very different in the beginning??
:-*
[wavey]
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I always thought Julia became much "warmer" and more...personable as the show went on--she's so analytical, logical, and almost emotionless (about anything aside from her "work" that is) when she first appears...and then she meets Barnabas. I love all the episodes when their weird relationship is brought to the forefront (correct me if I'm wrong--I haven't a clue when some of these scenes happen): there's an episode in the 200's or so when someone (I think it's Elizabeth) tells someone else that she thinks Julia and Barnabas are a couple; then there's one during/before the creation of Adam when the good doctor awkwardly tells Barnabas that even though he's a vampire, "some women" might find him attractive or something like that; and who could forget that tender 1995 moment? Or that scene in 1840 when Julia *almost* proclaims her love? I know this is kind of cheesy, but maybe love changed her a bit?
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one thing i noticed about the show was how a "bad"(or at least self-serving) character becomes "good" when the plotline dictates.
burke devlin:bad/then good.roger collins:bad/then good.david:bad/then good.barnabas:really super bad/then sort of good.
doesn't angelique sort of even become "good" during some point in the show?
one can only get so much mileage out of a one-note character.
i think julia was true to herself as the character was originally concieved.but after 1795 barnabas needed a different kind of "helper"(one smarter than willie)and the fact that she was a doctor fit perfectly with the first major storyline...adam.her expertise was needed for the experiment to be successfully completed.the fact that she had fallen in love with him was an added layer.i think the writers just went with this change because the plot dictated it.
while i always enjoy grayson hall i did like her character better early on when she was so fearless and driven.later she doesn't always use her best judgement/ethics.
i recently watched a scene where julia had a "showdown" with nicholas blair and her resolve and fearlessness in the face of potential destruction reminded me of early julia.the (famous)scene where julia slaps cassandra during the dream curse was awsome but read more as "bitchy" rather than fearless given julia's feelings for barnabas.
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Interesting topic. I do think Julia's love for Barnabas caused a definite change in her personality. I also think, as she got to know the people at Collinwood, she became more comfortable in her new surroundings and dropped the somewhat cold demeanor. I don't think she lost her resoluteness and determination, but when it came to Barnabas, her common sense often went right out the window.
I wish they had provided more background on the character. I don't think we ever learned much about her past, which is odd for such a major character in the show.
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The role of Dr. Hoffman, as originally written and portrayed in the early episodes, simply could NOT have been sustained for much longer than it was, in my opinion. She was strident and relentless and completely lacking in subtlety. She spoke down to every other character with which she exchanged dialogue, and her physical gestures were abrupt and graceless. I assume this was the portrayal agreed upon by Curtis, Hall and the directors......and it was powerful indeed.
No audience would have tolerated it for very long. It was so extreme as to border on caricature. But it did establish Dr. Hoffman's inteligence, her self-confidence, her fearlessness, and her total commitment to her science. There could be no doubt that this woman was unafraid of the "dark", and would stare evil in the face with nothing less than contempt.
But of course, "something else" had to come next. Julia Hoffman needed a woman's soul as well as a brilliant mind. She needed an object of affection, and preferable one that was worthy of someone as complex and deep as she. Who better than a man from a different time, who's existance was utterly without precident, and who would choose to place himself completely at her mercy?
I don't think Julia ever really surrendered to Barnabas at all. On the contrary, I think her behaviour was so protective of him because HE had surrendered his secret and his safety to HER.
I think it fair to say that the character of Julia Hoffman was, in fact, the most carefully and precisely drawn of all the characters on the show, and I believe Grayson Hall's performance indicates she thought the same thing.
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I know it's an unpopular position, but I've always been in the "Julia is a doormat" camp. Although I do think that "softening" her character was a good move as it made her more sympathetic to the audience, it galled me to see how much she deferred to Barnabas over time--bowing to his whims, accepting his judgment over her own, giving up her way of life to cater to him--when she had been presented as such a strong-willed dame in the beginning. I really lost respect for her. When [spoiler]Barnabas and Julia become adversaries in the early Leviathan period,[/spoiler] I welcomed the change because it allowed Julia to become more independant and tough again. It could be argued that Julia is a loving, self-sacrificing person who is willing to put the man she loves before herself, but I tend to think of her primarily as a wimp.
I also noticed that Julia became more squeamish and prone to hysterics after she fell in love with Barnabas. (e.g. [spoiler]When she's investigating Dr. Lang's basement, she comes across a headless cadaver and starts wailing and whimpering. As a medical doctor, should Julia really be so freaked out over a dead bdy?)[/spoiler] This made her character less believable and more exasperating to me. :-
Compared to other women on the show (Vicki, Maggie, Roxanne, Sabrina) Julia is a tough cookie, but I wish she could have been more assertive throughout the show.
ProfStokes
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Interesting commentary all around. I think that while Julia went along with Barnabas when sometimes she just shoulda turned tail and left. . it often was not without a sharp critique of how dumb his ideas were . .but she knew he'd do it with or without her and when he was without her..disaster was the main result so she chose to be helpful always reminding him in a not-so-subtle fashion at times who had more brains and oftentimes, more compassion.
I think we "remember" a bit differently than it was staged. . i had read commentary here for a long time about Julia becoming a doormat then when i watched the show . .she would acquiesce but begrudgingly and usually to ensure someone else didn't get hurt? But then maybe that's how I 'remember'. .?
I do agree with ProfStokes on the hysterics. . sometimes I think even "G" and the writers forgot she was playing a doctor--so screaming at cadavers was superfluous. . .but they wanted a good scream i guess and NancyB was off somewhere else. .
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Was our good doctor screaming at the body or what the body represented? I always thought it was the latter.
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I agree with Julia99. I never saw her as a doormat. She would argue with Barnabas and try vigorously to convince him of her point of view, but he was almost always obstinate and she would give in. As she states, Julia knew Barnabas would do it anyway, and in many cases it was a question of trying to protect someone esle.
Was our good doctor screaming at the body or what the body represented? I always thought it was the latter.
That's interesting - that could explain it. I don't know if it was so much being surprised at her reaction to a body than the various supernatural things she had already dealt with in addition to her medical experience, it really seemed strange when she became that frightened.
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During her introduction, Julia needed to be tough. She had to be the scientist. She was looking for answers to Maggie's problem. Part of her cold demeanor was to convay to the audience that she suspected everyone at Collinwood of being involved. The problem was proving it.
Then when she became intrigued by Barnabas and fell for him the character needed to change otherwise her continued existance would be a waste. Also she became a willing assistant who was more than willing to do anything Barnabas told her too.
the main problem with her change was it was a complete 360, she went from cold, calculating doctor to whimpering, simpering frightened woman. it became an equally unrealistic change. i think the writers had written it for Vicki/Maggie and kept changing it to Julia's job.
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the main problem with her change was it was a complete 360, she went from cold, calculating doctor to whimpering, simpering frightened woman. it became an equally unrealistic change.
I think you meant 180. .360 would mean she did a complete circle..sorry pet peeve :-*. . .i correct that a lot in writing . .just like the comma between month and year. . NO COMMA if there is no day . . writing9111.com . . yeah!
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the main problem with her change was it was a complete 360, she went from cold, calculating doctor to whimpering, simpering frightened woman. it became an equally unrealistic change. i think the writers had written it for Vicki/Maggie and kept changing it to Julia's job.
We both mean a 180 turnaround...anyway, like most soap operas the writers seem to go with the flow. Apparently, there was some chemistry between Frid and Hall and I guess, the idea of Dr. Hoffman (like the rest of the Collinsport female population) falling in love with the 175 year old wax-like Barnabas (sorry but this is NOT 1795 Barnie) took root and they "went with it". She followed him everywhere, lived with him for years, it seems, they were a vitual Sherlock Holmes and Watson combination. I'd like to know what the heck she was living on? Was she self-supporting? What about her affiliations with her hospital? Her job? Did she collect a salary? What about her family? Prior relationships? Basically, Barnabas became her whole life and Julia Hoffman was turned into the neurotic, harassed yet humbly adoring plot point re: Barnabas' "helper" and the Willie Loomis, Ben Stokes substitute. And the writers were getting sloppy by that time. Both Willie Loomis and Ben Stokes were given the courtesy of having people around them raise a couple of eyebrows when they started their Barnabas servitude. Remember Jason McGuire's reaction to Willie sweeping the floors of the old house? In my opinion, the character of Julia Hoffman was written off.
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In all fairness, as Julia99 said, she usually tried to talk Barnabas out of his often extreme actions - knowing full-well Barnabas would do exactly what he wanted to anyway.
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For the amount of time the character is on the show she doesn't get a backstory, and because she's a main character and is on the show constantly, it's kind of surprising why they never created any kind of past for her. But they didn't really give her any connections outside of Barnabas, period. Perhaps a bit of a backstory could've given us a bit of insight into her character changing so much when she meets Barnabas.
I don't necessarily see her as a doormat, but I don't see her as a tough cookie either. Maybe because all of her actions/reactions revolve around Barnabas, and it's sort of hard for me to judge based on that one aspect (her love for him). IMHO, Julia isn't really all that developed of a character, despite her huge presence on the show.
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For the amount of time the character is on the show she doesn't get a backstory, and because she's a main character and is on the show constantly, it's kind of surprising why they never created any kind of past for her.
And that is a huge irony often noted by others. . .when the show resoundingly revolves around Barnabas's past and then Quentin's . ..Elizabeth's. . Roger's . . .**why** is Julia's past life never even mentioned? We get only a few hints . .the medallion being from her Grandmother (which could've been an outright lie to cover up her hypnonsis-addicted ways) and the fact that she **chose** medical school over marriage/family. . and her brilliance in medical school (a la Dr Woodward)--I think that's about it. .
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because of her distinctive style grayson hall gave dr.julia hoffman great "presence" on the show.that combined with the chemistry she had with mr.frid gradually lead to her being written into the show's lead.
but what if a less charismatic actress had been hired for the part?would the character have been given less prominence?
because the character lacked a back-story or any sort of personal life in the hands of a lesser actress she could have been a very boring character,and indeed,a "doormat".it was grayson's style and charisma that made the character what it was and she did always have an air of the "tough cookie" even when she was obviously being put to ill use by barnabas.
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I believe that the defining moment in Julia's and Barnabas's relationship came when Barnabas was able to manipulate Julia into standing by during Dr. Woodard's murder. Regardless how determined or strong willed Julia would be in dealing with others, this key moment would always make her subservient to Barnabus's will.
Jeff
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Overall, I always saw her as fairly strong. The scenes that are most vivid in my mind are the ones from the 1968 arc when she would face Nicholas or Cassandra with total equanimity. The scenes toward the end of that SL with Nicholas in particular, you knew she was one tough broad.
For whatever reason, though, whenever Barnabas was involved, she turned into complete j-ello. Even when his plans were totally insane, when there were other more reasonable and more rational courses of action, yeah, she'd register a protest, but 9 times out of 10, she'd cave like a house of cards during an earthquake. I think it would have made for a better story if she had been written as a strong woman consistently, but she wasn't.
So doormat with Barnabas, strong with everybody else.
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I think Julia Hoffman was a combination of both.
With other people she was definitely a tough cookie. With Barnabas she ended up being his doorman. Most women would have realized after a while that Barnabas wasn't going to be anything more than a friend and moved on. Julia kept letting him walk all over her, however.