DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '05 I => Topic started by: Countess on March 14, 2005, 07:47:37 AM
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I've always been bugged by that scene in 1840 when [spoiler]Barnabas declares his love to a dying Angelique.[/spoiler] Seemed to me that the "redemption" of Angelique during that time period was intended to make the future relationship between Catherine and Bramwell more palatable to viewers who had come to loathe what the witch had done to Barnabas. Even so, I didn't buy it as a kid and I still don't. Anyone else feel manipulated by that scene?
Countess
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Absolutely, Countess! After watching four years of bad blood between these two, I felt like that scene was a slap in the face to the audience and an insult to Sarah, Josette, Jeremiah, Naomi, Roxanne, Vicki, Elizabeth, Dr. Lang, Ben Stokes, and everyone else who suffered either directly or indirectly from Angelique's evil.
I have never understood the rationale for Barnabas's feelings. One day, Angelique is turning his crush-of-the-month into a vampire, threatening to kill his dear friend Julia, and making snide remarks about his dead sister; practically the next day Angelique is his confidante and the apple of his eye. This transition was much too sudden for me. I might have been willing to believe that Barnabas's attitude toward Angelique had tempered if this had occurred in 1970--after battling Count Petofi and the Leviathans together, these two seemed to have developed a truce, or at least a degree of mutual understanding [spoiler](although after appearing to have matured, Angelique slid back into her old ways and used witchcraft on Maggie and Quentin, proving that she hadn't really changed after all)[/spoiler] --but even still the thought of them together leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose we're supposed to think that [spoiler]Angelique curing him of vampirism was a sign that she was willing to let bygones be bygones and reform, but even that twist felt contrived. In no other time period was Angelique ever able to undo her spell; why was she suddenly able to do so now?[/spoiler]
The outcome to 1840 doesn't make sense in terms of the story or in terms of Barnabas's character, and moreover I think it's morally wrong because [spoiler]I see it as rewarding Angelique for her centuries of heinous behavior by giving her what she's tried all along to win through illegitimate means. Yes, ladies, stalking, smothering, and cursing the man you love, even hurting and killing the people he loves is a perfectly appropriate way to win his affections; after all, it worked for Angelique.[/spoiler] No offense intended to B/A fans, but IMHO, the pairing is sick in so many ways.
ProfStokes
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In the immortal, sarcastic words of Magda Rakosi regarding Barnabas and Angelique,
"Hmph! They deserve each other!"
It was definitely a sudden change of heart though. Who knows what would have happened between those two had the series progressed (since Angelique never stays dead). Something tells me their respective volatile natures and their past history would have caused very serious problems over time, and if Josette (or anyone resembling her for that matter) ever returned, I'm certain the Barnabas/Angelique union would not have lasted. Barnabas would love Angelique until "Josette" showed up again. Then, of course, he'd lose Josette (again) and Angelique (again), go through another "rebound" phase of longing for another Roxanne or Vicki-type character, and then start the whole crazy cycle all over again. Yet through it all, poor Julia, tormented by unrequited love, would be waiting and hoping. Such is the strange, sad romance of the infamous Dark Shadows love rectangle - Barnabas-Josette-Angelique-Julia.
~Penny Dreadful~
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I have never understood the rationale for Barnabas's feelings. One day, Angelique is turning his crush-of-the-month into a vampire, threatening to kill his dear friend Julia, and making snide remarks about his dead sister; practically the next day Angelique is his confidante and the apple of his eye. This transition was much too sudden for me.
My theory is that Barnabas no more loves Angelique than he loves Maggie or Roxanne or Kitty. Hang on before you all stone me.
With Maggie, Kitty, Rachel, I think when he sees them he idealizes them. He treats them as replacements for Josette. He really doesn't care about who they are as people. It's all about fitting them to a mold.
As for the mold herself, Josette, I think there's something off there. Not with her, but with him. I mean, if you think about his father, his mother, his aunt, and most notably the way his father treats his mother, something is wrong. Naomi is a beautiful woman who has no responsibilities. She's supposed to wear pretty clothes and let someone else run the household (very uncharacteristic for the period). I get the feeling that Joshua put her on a pedestal when they first got married, kept her there, and is now horrified to learn that she's never wanted to be up there--which she expresses by drinking. Barnabas sees Josette and she's the cat's meow. He's got the beautiful room for her and he's ecstatically happy, but there's not a strong sense that they are going to be partners facing life's troubles together. No, he'll be putting her on her own pedestal.
Vicki is anomalous to me, so I'm going to ignore her for the moment. I think she started out like the Josette clones but it turned into something else.
With Roxanne and Angelique, my take is that he "falls in love" because it's an avoidance tactic. He's in love with being in love. There's Roxanne in all her pointy-glory lying on a slab like Sleeping Beauty and he determines he loves her. Something similiar with Angelique. I think he's locked into patterns of behavior. He's in love with the drama and the romance and she's there and he's got other issues he'd rather not deal with.
My rationale anyhow.
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My rationale anyhow.
Actually, I think your take is an excellent analysis. [thumb]
Something tells me their respective volatile natures and their past history would have caused very serious problems over time
Exactly.
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Absolutely, Countess! After watching four years of bad blood between these two, I felt like that scene was a slap in the face to the audience and an insult to Sarah, Josette, Jeremiah, Naomi, Roxanne, Vicki, Elizabeth, Dr. Lang, Ben Stokes, and everyone else who suffered either directly or indirectly from Angelique's evil.
I agree 100%. I actually haven't seen that famous scene, and I don't even want to. I don't believe Barnabas would ever feel that way about her, after everything she had done. She was responsible or indirectly responsible for so many things - things that happened to him and things that happened to everyone else, people that he loved throughout the series. It cheapens his love for a lot of other people - people like Josette and Victoria, and his family as well as the present day Collins family. I just don't buy it.
I like the character of Angelique and I like the dynamic of their relationship - when it comes to them being enemies and her obsession with him. The ending between the two of them just doesn't sit well with me and I view at as a writers blunder and tend to ignore it otherwise.
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Personally, I love that scene because I believe that Barnabas and Angelique are true soul mates. I also believe that Barnabas never really loved Josette. If he truly felt that Josette was the great love of his life, then why was he sneaking around with Angelique? I feel that he viewed Josette as the ideal woman for someone in his social position, and over the years, built her up into a mythical creature. I believe that Angelique was the one he really wanted, and that Josette was the one he felt that he should want. The irony, and the power, of that scene between B and A is that if Barnabas had recognized his true feelings in the first place, he would have saved himself and everyone else a great deal of pain and suffering.
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While watching the 1795 flashback, I definitely felt that Barnabas truly loved Josette. I also got the impression that the fling he had with Angelique was before he and Josette had much interaction, before he fell in love with her (Josette). I didn't believe he loved Angelique or wanted to be with her the way he did Josette. For him, the relationship he had with Angelique was a fling and not based on love but on lust. It was Josette he fell in love with and wanted to be with, and I don't think it was just because of her station.
I don't think he loved Angelique in 1795. He wronged her for sure, but then again the punishment sure didn't fit the crime.
That's just how I saw it.
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Very well said Countess and Professor....There is no way in Hades i could ever have had feelings for her, except pure hatred and rage, and to top it off, when you think you have killed her by burning her up, she returns to torment again [madan] If i was Barnabas, i wouldnt have had Sam Evans doctoring up that painting of Angelique, i would have had enormous pleasure "making over" the _itch ;D
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I have never seen Angelique's redemption and never plan to. Just the thought of Barnabas deciding at long last Angelique was his true love is very disturbing to me.
Even as a total Josette/Barnabas fan I could somehow stomach theories that Barnabas might have initially perferred Angelique but that "class" and "social obligations" kept them apart. But there is no excusing and denying what Angelique became responsible for.
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i haven't seen those episodes yet either(and may never,the idea of 1840/1841pt is too far removed from what i really like about the show to hold much interest for me)but isn't the idea of a barnabas/angelique love affair one of the oldest storytelling cliche's in the book?:to have long standing rivals/enemies suddenly profess thier love for one another.in terms of a television show it's often employed to bring fresh story ideas to a worn-out formula(think sam and diane).
perhaps by this point in the show the writers felt that they had gotten all they could out of barnabas and angelique as enemies and thought that this could lead in a new direction(especially since kls had left by then and a new "josette" clone was not possible).they probably didn't count on the loyalty of most fans and their refusal to accept this unlikely turn of events(or that people like us would still be analyzing the story 35 years later).
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isn't the idea of a barnabas/angelique love affair one of the oldest storytelling cliche's in the book?:to have long standing rivals/enemies suddenly profess thier love for one another
True, but that plot device normally starts out with a antagonistic relationship that masks an attraction. With Barnabas and Angelique, they started out as lovers and became enemies.
I know that for many fans, the Barnabas/Josette romance is the heart of DS, but cynic that I am, I never quite bought into it. I always felt that Barnabas loved the idea of Josette more than he loved the actual woman. For me, the real tragedy of the Barnabas/Josette/Angelique triangle is that he was so in love with that image that he failed to recognize that he had the love of a real woman.
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I know that for many fans, the Barnabas/Josette romance is the heart of DS, but cynic that I am, I never quite bought into it. I always felt that Barnabas loved the idea of Josette more than he loved the actual woman. For me, the real tragedy of the Barnabas/Josette/Angelique triangle is that he was so in love with that image that he failed to recognize that he had the love of a real woman.
I don't think it was love Angelique felt for Barnabas as much as it was pure obsession and the need to possess and control. Not only that, but she also very much desired to be above her "station" and Barnabas certainly would've provided that (did, in their very brief marriage). I don't think her feelings for Barnabas were based love (not genuine love anyway). She couldn't stand getting burned. She couldn't stand the fact that he rejected her and chose Josette (someone she was already plenty envious of because of Josette's wealth and status).
As far as Barnabas and Josette goes, I really wish they had taken more time in 1795 to establish them instead of automatically bringing Angelique in to start the conflict. The only problem I see with Barnabas and Josette is that they didn't get enough development. But I was convinced by what we did see that they both loved each other and would've had a happy life together, unlike Joshua and Naomi. I didn't get the impression that Joshua felt for Naomi when they first married the way that Barnabas felt for Josette (was there a scene that gave background like this on Joshua and Naomi?) I think it isn't until his family is destroyed that Joshua realizes what he had and recognizes his love for them, Naomi included.
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Wow, cousins, you really surprised me! I thought I was going to get crucified for this topic. ;D. Lots of interesting points expressed though. Yeah, enemies becoming lovers is an old soap opera ploy, but doesn't exactly fit the bill when one of the pair practically annihilates your entire family. :'( I don't question that Barnabas loved Josette but used Angelique for sex. Back then, men wanted their future brides 'virginal' and went elsewhere for sex. As for Angelique wanting to better her station - couldn't she have done that for herself using her witchcraft? And I was always amused that in every incarnation, this admittedly beautiful creature had to blackmail, threaten or enslave some poor schmuck into marrying her. Except Sky - but he knew what she was and used HER! I mean, what's wrong with this picture? Does this not show a pattern of obsession, of needing to control people? So I still suspect that the 'redemption' of Angelique was a plot device to prepare the audience for the Bramwell/Catherine story. Otherwise, what a shock to the system that would have been. Even so, the storyline, IMHO, bombed. Great feedback on this topic, cousins. Thanks! ;D
Countess
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Wow, cousins, you really surprised me! I thought I was going to get crucified for this topic. ;D. Lots of interesting points expressed though. ... Great feedback on this topic, cousins. Thanks!
I agree that it's been a wonderful discussion - but it's also the type of discussion that we love to have on the forum, so there was no need to worry that you might be crucified, Countess. :)
I still suspect that the 'redemption' of Angelique was a plot device to prepare the audience for the Bramwell/Catherine story. Otherwise, what a shock to the system that would have been. Even so, the storyline, IMHO, bombed.
Well, I don't know about that. 1841PT definitely has its fans (I'm one ;)), and Catherine and Bramwell certainly have their champions (ROBINV just might be their biggest :)) - but that's all an entirely different discussion. ;D
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Perhaps there was another reason for the 1840 Angelique scene. Had Dark Shadows not been canceled it could have been that the story would have taken a turn that Angelique manipulated events and that's how Bramwell and Catherine ended up together.
Angelique was a witch and just because one storyline said she no longer was evil. Didn't mean she wouldn't have been again.
When has a soap opera ever let the character's live happily ever after?
FireRose
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Actually when Barnabas first sees Angelique in 1840, he is horrified to see her when he shouldn't have been. The last time they dealt with each other they were in a cordial relationship. he should have been happy that she was there so she could help him fight Judah Zachary. Though there is also the fact that she doesn't remember anything chronologically post 1840, which is another discrepancy.
It would probably have been better to use the Judah Zachary story in the present time and avoid 1840 and time travel altogether. By this time, I was tired of every story taking place in another time period and just wanted to see the present time characters I was familiar with for the past few years.
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Actually when Barnabas first sees Angelique in 1840, he is horrified to see her when he shouldn't have been. The last time they dealt with each other they were in a cordial relationship. he should have been happy that she was there so she could help him fight Judah Zachary. Though there is also the fact that she doesn't remember anything chronologically post 1840, which is another discrepancy.
When Barnabas meets up with Angelique in 1840, I think it's at least implied that she hasn't experienced the events of 1897 and the late 1960's early 70's. He's encountering an Angelique that hasn't seen him since he was chained in the coffin in 1795/96. The writers kind of goofed with this, because so much of what the characters had been through in earlier storylines had involved the witch, and now they were essentially rewriting the history of the main timeline of the show (if you follow).
I for one never really bought into the idea that Barnabas really loved Angelique in the 1840 storyline. And it was a real slap in the face to viewers who knew the whole tragic story. Some have theorized that maybe Barnabas told her he loved her so that in death (this time anyway) her spirit would find rest and not trouble the folks at Collinwood any longer.
My guess is that the writers pulled the Angelique redemption story out of their hats in order to make the paring of Jonathan Frid and Lara Parker more palatable to viewers in the upcoming Bramwell/Catherine story, and just didn't care to think about the ramifications of Barnabas and Angelique actually being together as lovers, 'cos it would likely never have happened. Remember, JF allegedly refused to play Barnabas any longer.
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Remember, JF allegedly refused to play Barnabas any longer.
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Actually, it's not that Frid didn't want to play Barn anymore. He didn't want to play Barn as a vampire anymore...
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If Frid just didn't want to play Barnabas as a vampire, but would play the role as a normal man, why did they bother with 1841 PT for? They should have returned to 1971 and tie up all the loose ends.
I always thought 1841 PT was written for the purpose of having JF play a different character as he threated to leave DS if they did not give him another character to play.
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I always thought 1841 PT was written for the purpose of having JF play a different character as he threated to leave DS if they did not give him another character to play.
That's true. As I went on to say in the post I quoted from:
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- and he wanted to be able to play characters other than Barn. He got to do the latter when he played Bramwell - but who knows what might have happened with the former had DS continued past 1841PT...
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I do think Barnabas truly loved Josette. She was the love of his life. His love grew into a deeply unhealthy obsession, but it started with true love IMO.
However, I also believe he had feelings for Angelique as well. Of course, after she unleashed her vengeance on him and his family, he loathed her... but not completely. There is sometimes a fine line between love and hate. I think part of him still had feelings for her. Although these feelings were seemingly those of pure sexual attraction at one time, we can't be certain that's all there was to them. He obviously felt a great, positive passion towards Angelique at one time, but these feelings soon turned to hatred because of her actions against his family.
The course of events in 1840 lead to a change of heart on Barnabas' part; he said he loved her as she died in his arms. As much as some might choose to ignore it, this happened and it was a very sad, powerful scene. I don't deny that Barnabas felt love for her at the time. I also think, despite Angelique's obsession and desire to control, at the heart of it, she actually did love Barnabas. He wronged her badly early on, and she had the power to get revenge (although her revenge went way too far). Angelique isn't completely evil and neither is Barnabas. The relationship between the two is a comlex one.
Out of all the characters on DS, they are the most alike in many ways. They are both extremely passionate, both will do whatever it takes to get what they want, and they are both prone to obsession. However, they are TOO much alike. Mixing fire and gasoline will result in a fiery, heated explosion. Yes, the fire will burn brightly, but it will also be very destructive. Even though Barnabas and Angelique are actually a matched set in many ways, they are both too volatile to be with one another. Something would inevitably go wrong at some point. There is too much jealousy, emotion and past history with those two. That's what makes their relationship so great. It's not the clear cut Barnabas = good guy and Angeliquie = bad guy scenario. There's more to it than that.
So, while I don't think the result of Barnabas & Angelique's reconciliation in 1840 would have lasted in the long run, I also don't deny that it was genuine either. Angelique did alot of horrible stuff to Barnabas because she was hurt by him, still loved him despite that, and felt witchcraft was her only means of getting him to see things her way. I certainly don't think Barnabas deserved that degree of punishment, but such "passions can grow into monsters" if they are uncontrolled. Emotion is a funny thing - it's not black and white.
~Penny Dreadful~
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That's an interesting assessment, PennyDreadful, and it's believable, given the circumstances. Despite what awful things Angelique did to Barnabas, perhaps he did still have feelings towards her. They never could leave each other alone, could they? And given the fact that Barnabas managed to do some pretty horrible things himself, perhaps he felt empathy towards Angelique, and found it easier to forgive her than others might have done. She gave her life to save him (and others), so certainly she was deserving of some tenderness at the end. It is a very moving scene.
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I also think, despite Angelique's obsession and desire to control, at the heart of it, she actually did love Barnabas.
Well, you're being very charitable here. In additional to Angelique's obsession and desire for control she was also a cold blooded murderess and liar. Given what kind of a person she was and how corrupted she became with her own power I would say Angelique was not capable of love in the normal sense. You can't "love" someone and be responsible for the deaths of someone's mother, sister and uncle. I don't see how this could be forgiven and the fact Barnabas had been attracted to Angelique and possibly contributing to the carnage must have made Barnabas loath himself all the more.
The writing for Angelique was brilliant in that it was schizophrenic. There were indications Angelique cared for Barnabas. It didn't appear that the possibility of Barnabas loosing his inheritance over marrying Angelique changed her feelings towards him. But, it also never appeared Angelique cared for money in any sense except that it would make her better than Josette, or at least competitive. After acquiring Josette's fiancee I guess her need for money vanished. But, her altruism in this instance didn't stop Angelique from manuvering Joshua into giving her money to leave Collinwood after Barnabas' death.
I love the scene where - after Angelique places a curse on Vickie causing Vickie to run from her room when Trask was performing his exorcism - Barnabas, worried and concerned, questions Angelique over her whereabouts during the exorcism, Angelique lies and tells Barnabas she was in the sewing room, but Barnabas heard her mumbling "strange words" in her old room. Oh, no..she sais...I was in the sewing room. Barnabas looks at her suspiciously. Angelique does look a little worried. Barnabas, flustered and upset walks away - afterwards you see a casual Angelique finishing her Vickie curse by contributing that burning is the proper punishment for witches as was the old customs. Nice lady, this Angelique. I guess it's not enough Vickie gets punished for a crime Angelique is guilty of but Angelique's sadism demands an even more excruciating death for an innocent girl. Vickie's only crime being that she is young and pretty and Angelique's obsession and desire for control didn't care for that at all and, of course, there's always the convenience of Vickie's death taking away any suspicion from Angelique as the real witch.
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Nice lady, this Angelique.
Believe me, I don't think Angelique is remotely "nice." She can be horribly vicious and evil. However, she is not entirely evil, and like many of the DS characters (supernatural or otherwise) she IMO is clearly capable of falling in love - but I agree, her version of love is a bit off. Like many of the DS characters, she's kind of messed up in the head and has a really skewed way of looking at things. For Angelique, and many DS characters (and heck the gothic genre in general) love and unhealthy obsession go hand in hand.
I find it interesting that many of the supernatural characters on DS were capable of falling in love, often to their detriment. It really humanized them to some degree. I think the only completely rotten to the core supernatural DS character was probably John Yaeger, who was supposed to be the absolute, pure essence of evil. Judah Zachery was really terrible too, but I believe even he had a soft spot for Miranda at one time.
~Penny Dreadful~
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Personally, I love that scene because I believe that Barnabas and Angelique are true soul mates. I also believe that Barnabas never really loved Josette. If he truly felt that Josette was the great love of his life, then why was he sneaking around with Angelique? I feel that he viewed Josette as the ideal woman for someone in his social position, and over the years, built her up into a mythical creature. I believe that Angelique was the one he really wanted, and that Josette was the one he felt that he should want. The irony, and the power, of that scene between B and A is that if Barnabas had recognized his true feelings in the first place, he would have saved himself and everyone else a great deal of pain and suffering.
Claude North, I absolutely agree with what you said, I think Barnabas was in some ways emotionally repressed, though it does not seem like he was in Martinique, and that he was perhaps somewhat afraid of the passion, etc feelings that Angelique brought out in him. I do think he loved Josette, but not in the way he grew to love and underneath it all always cared for Angelique. Barnabas would have had a happy if rather dull life with Josette, with Angelique his life would have never been dull, as has been said of other volatile couples, there would have been fights, but the making up would have been all the more sweeter. I still think Angelique is the best soulmate for Barnabas.
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While watching the 1795 flashback, I definitely felt that Barnabas truly loved Josette. I also got the impression that the fling he had with Angelique was before he and Josette had much interaction, before he fell in love with her (Josette).
When A confronted B in his room on her first night in America, he confessed that he had already fallen for Josette at the time of their affair but was unsure of her (Josette's) feelings toward him. A transcript containing that exchange follows. (Me type fast. ;))
I don't think it was love Angelique felt for Barnabas as much as it was pure obsession and the need to possess and control. Not only that, but she also very much desired to be above her "station" and Barnabas certainly would've provided that (did, in their very brief marriage). I don't think her feelings for Barnabas were based love (not genuine love anyway). She couldn't stand getting burned. She couldn't stand the fact that he rejected her and chose Josette (someone she was already plenty envious of because of Josette's wealth and status).
I noticed that she doesn't express love toward Barn here even after he confronted her about it, and like you I wonder if her obsession with him was largely BECAUSE he was engaged to Josette. And interestingly, Angelique doesn't admit to having any expectations about taking Josette's place; on the contrary, she seems prepared to assume the role as his mistress. (Blaming him for making her love him is just lame.)
BTW, he's not nearly this cold in their subsequent scene together in HER room.
He wronged her for sure, but then again the punishment sure didn't fit the crime.
I couldn't agree more. I'll even go so far as to say that I think he's a total bastard in this scene:
BARNABAS: (knocking) Who is it?
ANGELIQUE: (playfully) A ghost from your past. Close the door. Quickly!
B: Angelique.
A. I waited for this moment all day long. (she holds out her arms, but there's no response) You do not remember?
B: I remember.
A: I waited in my room. You didn't come. So here I am. (reacting to his indifference) I'll have not your pride. I have no reason for pride. Oh, hold me. (she embraces him)
B: (without emotion) Angelique.
A: After you left our island, I would wake up at night, hearing you say my name. Did you think of me at all?
B: Yes. I-I did.
A. Tell me. (embraces him again) Hold me tighter and tell me.
B: (pained) No. (pushes her away)
A: Why, you do not think me pretty any more?
B: Yes, of course you are, but... You see, it was a mistake. (unsure of his next line) Oh, I know it was wrong to say it this way, but, well, it's my fault. I know it was my weakness to...
A: (wounded) ... love me.
B: I love Josette.
A: (angry) But you came to me.
B: I am sorry.
A: For what? For making me love you?
B: You do not love me.
A: You can tell me how I feel?
B: Oh, I'm sorry.
A: Today, when you opened the door, I thought you were glad to see me.
B: I was.
A: You are honest now?
B: Yes.
A: Then you are glad I am in this room. (embraces him)
B: Josette is coming.
A: She's not here yet.
B: (pulls away) But she's going to be.
A: You're so different here. You're as cold as that wind outside your house.
B: I am not cold, but I want to be. I have to be.
A: Why?
B: Because, Angelique, I didn't know that we were going to be married then. To be honest, I thought I was in love with Josette but I didn't realize she was in love with me. But now that we've written, (pause) well, you and I... It's impossible.
A: Are you sad about it?
B: What good will it be to admit that? We both have different roles to play now.
A: And what is mine? The Countess' maid? You knew me as I really am. I am no one's servant but yours.
B: No.
A: Yes. I am your servant. You are my master. That is the way it works. That is the way it is to be.
B: No, Angelique.
A: (pulls back bitterly) You will see! (flees from room)
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The mistress line is an excellent point, one that I completely forgot about for some reason. Still though, she may say she would be satisfied with being his mistress, but I don't think she would. Angelique isn't the type to settle for anything less than what she wants. Even in those times when she tried to trap Barnabas into marrying her, he basically tells her he would never love her and she ignores it because she could claim him at least, but yet I got the impression that she always believed he would come to love her. She would settle for what she could get at first, but she would always try to make more out of what she got, if that makes sense. :)
At first, I think she would be accepting of a role as his mistress, but once he actually married Josette I think she would've set out to get rid of Josette regardless. In the end, she would never have been able to tolerate Josette's position in his life. His legitimate wife, the mother of his children...
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It would probably have been better to use the Judah Zachary story in the present time and avoid 1840 and time travel altogether. By this time, I was tired of every story taking place in another time period and just wanted to see the present time characters I was familiar with for the past few years.
No way would I eliminate the 1840 period from the show...or 1795 or 1897 for that matter.
I know a lot of folks weren't too hot about the show jumping backward in time (or sideways aka Parallel Time or forward in time in 1995) most of the time but I've never made any secret of the fact how much I love it when the characters
go back in time. If nothing else, the period stories gave Joan Bennett and Louis Edmonds much more airtime than they usually got in the present day aside from the first year.
I don't mean to say the present day stories weren't good. A good majority of them were entertaining. The Quentin/Beth haunting was great, I liked the dream curse, loved it when Angelique got turned into a vamp, enjoyed the Leviathans and have grown to appreciate and enjoy the first year much more than I had before.
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The "present day" has always been just too bland and matter-of-fact to me, not only in DS, but in real life from the 60s onward. The Head works much better in atmospheric 1840 (though it seems more like 1897) and in general I think 1840 was DS's last hurrah, where it got itself together to do one more good storyline after several with much bigger difficulties. DS and J Frid in particular seem to "wake up" or spring to life in a past storyline, no pun intended.
I wouldn't want to stay in the present just to avoid time-travel complications or Barnabas briefly falling for Ang. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater I think.
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The irony, and the power, of that scene between B and A is that if Barnabas had recognized his true feelings in the first place, he would have saved himself and everyone else a great deal of pain and suffering.
yes, and it would of cut the DS series run on ABC by 4 years [ghost_mad]
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Personally, I love that scene because I believe that Barnabas and Angelique are true soul mates. I also believe that Barnabas never really loved Josette. If he truly felt that Josette was the great love of his life, then why was he sneaking around with Angelique? I feel that he viewed Josette as the ideal woman for someone in his social position, and over the years, built her up into a mythical creature. I believe that Angelique was the one he really wanted, and that Josette was the one he felt that he should want...
...I still think Angelique is the best soulmate for Barnabas.
Go Claude North and Miranda!!!!! [cheer]
Judy
[9366]
[...quotes edited for brevity's sake...and we all know Brevity is my middle name... [stfl]]
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Angelique is hateful and doesn't deserve one ounce of pity. I do love to hate her though. YOU will never convince this die hard BULIA fan that he and Angie belonged together. [ghost_tongue] [ghost_wink]
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Ang Wins-- End of 1840 not so problematic for you I'm guessing?!
Wasn't the Barnelique tryst before Josebarb?
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Ang Wins-- End of 1840 not so problematic for you I'm guessing?!
Correctamundo, Mr. Trask!!!
Wasn't the Barnelique tryst before Josebarb?
Looking at the quotes Midnite provided, kinda sounds like the same time.
B: You see, it was a mistake. Oh, I know it was wrong to say it this way, but, well, it's my fault. I know it was my weakness to...
A: (wounded) ... love me.
B: I love Josette.
A: (angry) But you came to me.
and
B: Because, Angelique, I didn't know that we were going to be married then. To be honest, I thought I was in love with Josette but I didn't realize she was in love with me. But now that we've written, (pause) well, you and I... It's impossible.
A: Are you sad about it?
B: What good will it be to admit that? We both have different roles to play now.
Somehow, all I can hear is Han Solo going, "It's NOT my FAULT!"
Judy
[9366]
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Wow, lots of great interpretations here. It shows how great DS is that such completely different yet equally valid interpretations can be done.
Personally, I think Barnabas did love Angelique but rejected her initally out of class concerns, which was very realistic for the time. Barnabas courted Josette primarily thru letters, and I think that he saw her in a romaticised way. Their relationship seems more based on his ideas of courtly love than a real partnership imo. He loved her, but as they were kept apart he became obsessed with her, just as Angelique was obsessed with him.
Barnabas showed how blind he could be to real love with Julia, and was impulsive and fickle with his emotions, falling in love with one pyt after another, most of them being stand-ins for Josette. Than he really though he could hold Maggie prisoner, dress her in Josette's clothes and put her in Josette's room and make her be Josette says a lot about how Barnabas loves Josette, more like a very prized possesion than a person. At the very least the fact that Barnabas tries repeatedly to make other women become Josette shows he's very disturbed in realtion to how he views women and love.
Given how fickle Barnabas is it seems very in character for him to declare his love to Angelique once it's too late to make any difference. But it's one thing to make a foolish declarartion in a heat of passion, making that relationship work long time would've been much more difficult.
Personally, I prefer to think that Barnabas did eventually come to his senses and marry Julia, but once she's died a natural death from old age, if he were still around as an immortal vampire, it seems likely he'd fall into Angelique's arms again, at least until the next Josette look alike came along.
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Barnabas showed how blind he could be to real love with Julia, and was impulsive and fickle with his emotions, falling in love with one pyt after another, most of them being stand-ins for Josette. Than he really though he could hold Maggie prisoner, dress her in Josette's clothes and put her in Josette's room and make her be Josette says a lot about how Barnabas loves Josette, more like a very prized possesion than a person. At the very least the fact that Barnabas tries repeatedly to make other women become Josette shows he's very disturbed in realtion to how he views women and love.
I don't think Barnabas saw Josette as a prized possession, at least I saw no evidence of it. Nor do I think his love of Josette was fickle (at least before the curse). I think he honestly was deeply, madly, passionately in love with her, for who she was. I always think the reason he became so obsessed with her, or rather the memory of her, was he felt cheated out of the life they should have had, had it not been for Angelique's treachery. I do think that his feelings for any woman he saw as or tried to make into the image of Josette were fickle, with the exceptions of Vicki [spoiler](once he got rid of the notion of trying to turn her into Josette)[/spoiler] and Kitty Hampshire, [spoiler]who was the actual reincarnation of Josette).[/spoiler]
Once Barnabas was cursed, however, his love turned into an unhealthy obsession. He did try to resist attacking Josette at first, however, his overwhelming desire for her became too much. When he's released from his coffin in 1967 and sees Maggie, he is too fickle by this time to realize that this woman was NOT Josette, nor could she EVER be Josette no matter how much she resembled her. Same with Rachel Drummond. And to a degree, even Vicki even though she didn't look a thing like her.
(edited by admin)