DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '05 I => Topic started by: Roland on February 27, 2005, 10:56:18 PM
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Hi, everyone, I am new to the site and have been watching "Dark Shadows" regularly since about 1967. I currently purchase the DVD sets and am now kneedeep in the 1897 flashback.
However, I noticed what I consider to be a SERIOUS flaw in this particular part. [spoiler]In one episode, the ghost of Beth tells Julia in 1969 that she killed Quentin when she discovered that Quentin was going to marry Angelique. Yet, Angelique wasn't even there the first time around. She's only in 1897 now because Barnabas went back there. I'm surprised the writers didn't come up with a more plausible explanation for Quentin's death, one that would have not included either Barnabas or Angelique interfering, since neither one was there the "first" time.[/spoiler]
Time-tripping scenarios always have a built-in problem with this, but I would have thought the DS writers would have avoided intensifying that problem.
Thanks for your input.
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Now this is only one theory of time travel and history, but just keep that in mind. ;)
Sometimes, certain things are said in the present because the time loop (being used as a conscious "being") "knows" that someone travels back in time to correct/change something. That may be hard to understand, but allow me to explain using that as a reference.
[spoiler]Beth's ghost, being dead, is now a part of the time loop. Therefore, she knows everything that happened, is happening, will happen, etc. Since she knew that Barnabas traveled back in time, she knew that Angelique would come back, etc.[/spoiler]
I'm not an expert on knowledge of time manipulation and the like...I'm not Professor Stokes! XD Anyways, I hope that I explained MY views well enough for you. If you still have questions, just give me a little feedback. :)
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It's been over a year since i saw this . .but didn't Angie get pulled into 1897 by Quentin and his buddyEvan Handley's over curiosity . .not Barnabas. . ? They cunjured her up at the caretakers cottage...
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Julia99, Yes, you are right. But if Angelique had been Cassandra in the '60's wouldn't she have known all about Quentin and how he would die?
As I said, time-bending scenarios can be nototriously frustrating. I just wish the writers would have found a plausible explanation for Quention's death using only characters specific to that time period. It just feels to me as if the writers hadn't fully thought-out the implications of what they were doing (a rarity, actually, for the DS writers).
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Now this is only one theory of time travel and history, but just keep that in mind. ;)
Sometimes, certain things are said in the present because the time loop (being used as a conscious "being") "knows" that someone travels back in time to correct/change something. That may be hard to understand, but allow me to explain using that as a reference.
[spoiler]Beth's ghost, being dead, is now a part of the time loop. Therefore, she knows everything that happened, is happening, will happen, etc. Since she knew that Barnabas traveled back in time, she knew that Angelique would come back, etc.[/spoiler]
I'm not an expert on knowledge of time manipulation and the like...I'm not Professor Stokes! XD Anyways, I hope that I explained MY views well enough for you. If you still have questions, just give me a little feedback. :)
Ian, thanks for the explanation. I, too, have sometimes thought of time-travel scenarios in this way. Still, it bothers me a bit that the writers couldn't just have used one of their 1897 characters and avoided all this. It wouldn't have detracted in any way from the storyline and it would have made more sense.
I think they did a better job in the 1795 section by clearly showing that Victoria Winters REPLACED someone from that time period so that at least we got a sense that what was happening to her in 1795 had largely happened the first time to someone else (though it doesn't explain why Barnabas when he arrived at Collinwood in 1967 didn't say "Ah Victoria Winters...weren't you the girl who was hanged for witchcraft in 1795?").
Ah..I'm getting a headache. ???
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Julia99, Yes, you are right. But if Angelique had been Cassandra in the '60's wouldn't she have known all about Quentin and how he would die?
But, if you look at the 1840 storyline...
[spoiler]When Julia goes to 1840, and she talks to Angelique (Valerie Collins), she doesn't know what happens then, because she has yet to go to that time period. Using that, even though Angelique was Cassandra in 1968, Angelique in 1897 had yet to be Cassandra in 1968, so she would NOT have known any of what happened then.[/spoiler]
Like you said, headaaaache. Agh, I need some Tylenol now. XD
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Spoilers regarding 1897 and 1840 below, I guess.
The time-loop theory above seems to me to be just the TV version of time-travel, one of the ways of reconciling things that TV too often resorts to. The fact that we see it so often might explain why we're comfortable with it.
Very little SF had been on TV back then, and few TV writers could probably wrap their heads around the idea of time-travel and its implicattions. Just the idea of effect preceding cause was probably a little hard to process. Add to this the fact that they didn't expect these shows to ever be seen again, and didn't expect viewers to have that good a memory.
Unfortunately, there's a mountain of discontinuities, and that one's just the tip of the iceberg. [spoiler]The biggest to me is the fact that Barnabas just refuses to get back into the box, like a good boy, after 1897 and 1840. So his body isn't there to be set free by Willie in 1967, and most of the other things in the series would never happen, including their going back to change history,, etc., etc., round and round and round. 1840 cancels out 1897 as well as everything else. Angelique dying in 1840 is an incredibly disruptive event.[/spoiler]
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Welcome, Roland!
It's been over a year since i saw this . .didn't Angie get pulled into 1897 by Quentin and his buddyEvan Handley's over curiosity . .not Barnabas. . ? They cunjured her up at the caretakers cottage...
No, it was definitely to deal with Barnabas. My own explanation for Angelique's presence in the original timeline is that Quentin and Evan must've found some other reason to summon her from the flames. After all, Evan came up with the plan to conduct a ceremony to call someone from the netherworld very quickly after Quentin proposed that they needed to do something about Barnabas.
But if Angelique had been Cassandra in the '60's wouldn't she have known all about Quentin and how he would die?
I think that's an excellent question.
The timeline for Angelique (so far; 1840 screws it up) goes like this: 1795 to 1968, back to 1795, to 1897. The proof that she existed already in 1968 is that...
[spoiler]in 1897, she knows David, she recognizes Julia, she knows Chris' secret, she reacts when called "Cassandra", and she flat out admits that she was there previously. Wouldn't she have known about Quentin's ghost?[/spoiler]
It just feels to me as if the writers hadn't fully thought-out the implications of what they were doing (a rarity, actually, for the DS writers).
I agree with Magnus Trask that it happened more frequently than that. Angelique's history is but one more example, but that's a subject for another topic. ;)
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I agree with Midnite's theory that Quentin and Evan originally summoned Angelique for some other reason.
As for her memories, my theory is that her master took away her memories as punishment for whatever reason in 1840, but restored them at some later time.
Time-travel on DS is confusing, especially when the writers weren't consistent.
I'll add more later.
~Penny Dreadful~
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I'm just shocked that there's a thread with this title and it isn't about Amanda Harris. [puke]
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ROFL, MsC!
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I'm just shocked that there's a thread with this title and it isn't about Amanda Harris. [puke]
[thewave]
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she knows Chris' secret,
hmm..Midnite, could you elaborate on this? I don't remember Ang ever mentioning this.
Thanks
Patti
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Right. The Angelique timeline is confusing and multi-layered. Here are my theories on the Angelique timeline. Let's look at the first, unaltered string of Angelique appearances. This is the scenario before Barnabas was ever released from his coffin in 1967...
ANGELIQUE TIMELINE 1
1692 (Miranda - present in all versions - may have been a prior incarnation)
1795
1840 (no Barnabas)
1897 (no Barnabas - she was there for some other reason)
1968 (& 1969?)
1795
[spoiler]
I say Angelique was in the original 1897 scenario because unlike the 1840 time-trip, Barnabas' alteration of history in 1897 does not have a rollover effect in the present day. In other words, when Barnabas changes history in 1897, the effects in the present happen AFTER the Quentin/Beth haunting. Everyone remembers what happened even AFTER Barnabas changed history. In 1840, however, we had a rollover effect where existing history was apparently completely re-written from that point on. The present day family, as far as we could tell, has no memory of Gerard/Daphne. The tricks of time perhaps? The effects of time travel are inconsistent and the results are unpredictable. Going with that, when Beth's ghost reveals what happened in 1897, she is recounting the original series of events. Angelique was there. Who knows why. During that FIRST series of events, however, Angelique had NO knowledge yet of 1968, Cassandra etc.. She had not lived that yet. BUT - In 1968 (or perhaps '69)Satan punished Angelique by sending her back to 1795. It seems Angelique, in a sense, had to relive her life from that point on, which brings us to Angelique timeline number 2...
[/spoiler]
ANGELIQUE TIMELINE NUMBER 2
1692 (Miranda)
1795 (with knowledge of '68 events)
1840 (memory wiped by the devil for whatever reason? - some presumed failure?)
1897 (memory of 1968 restored - Barnabas is there this time around to save David and Chris)
1968 (her memory is probably wiped when she relives these events as Cassandra - however, this time around she's not sent back to the past as she's done her pennance by reliving those 200 years)
1970 (Angelique goes on living her life and marries Sky Rumson)
[spoiler]
Basically, Angelique lived her life twice. When Barnabas goes to 1897, Angelique is going through the "Take Two" version of her life. Again, Barnabas' tampering in 1897 only had an effect from a certain point on in 1969, as everyone clearly remembers the hauntings of Quentin and Beth.
However, in the second run of Angelique's life, she doesn't get sent back to 1795 as punishment by her master because she has atoned for her previous failure. She goes on with her life and marries Sky, then helps against the Leviathans.
BUT, the merry-go-round doesn't stop here folks. Barnabas and Julia go tinker with the past some more in 1840, but this time, instead of time being altered from a certain point forward (i.e. after the Gerard/Daphne hauntings) their tampering with the past seemingly has a rollover effect from 1840 onwards. This is troubling because these changes presumably alter the future great deal. In my view, some of these things probably righted themselves after Barnabas, Julia and Stokes left 1840. Some of them though would probably have long reaching effects. This brings us to Angelique timeline 3
[/spoiler]
ANGELIQUE TIMELINE 3
1692 (Miranda)
1795 (knowledge of 1968)
1840 (memory wiped by master as punishment for some failure?)
[spoiler]
Angelique dies in 1840 after Barnabas and Julia arrive. This is troubling because her presence in 1897, 1968 and 1970 is presumably nullified. Then again, Angelique never really stayed dead. Maybe after she died in Timeline 3, Satan offered her the chance to go to 1971, memories completely intact in exchange for something.... That is open to speculation.
[/spoiler]
Now, as for Baranabs having the habit of not returning to his coffin - I figure the Leviathans stuck him back in there in 1795. In 1840, I'm guessing when Barnabas trod the stairway, time took care of putting him back in his coffin. Remember he had a body in 1971 and one in 1840. Perhaps a "swap" took place. His 1971 vampiric body returned to the 1840 coffin, and was replaced by his human 1840 body. The mind boggles. For that matter, Barnabas must have done the I-Ching from INSIDE his coffin in 1970 since he was a vampire at the time. If he was in the trance and the sun rose wouldn't he be destroyed if he was sitting outside the coffin?! Imagine him lying in there inside the casket with the I-Ching wands scattered on his chest! :o
Ok, this must be really confusing. I need some fresh air. :)
~Penny Dreadful~
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[spoiler]in 1897, she knows David, she recognizes Julia, she knows Chris' secret, she reacts when called "Cassandra", and she flat out admits that she was there previously. Wouldn't she have known about Quentin's ghost?[/spoiler]
Wait. .wasn't Cassandra already dealt with by the time Quentin's ghost came around.. . ??? so from 1795 to 1968 back to 1795--then brought from 1795 to 1897 by Q and E .. .so i don't see why Angelique should've known about Q's ghost. . ??
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Wait. .wasn't Cassandra already dealt with by the time Quentin's ghost came around.. . ??? so from 1795 to 1968 back to 1795--then brought from 1795 to 1897 by Q and E .. .so i don't see why Angelique should've known about Q's ghost. . ??
But Cassandra came back in #655.
[spoiler]Still fixated on Liz for some unknown reason (but no doubt brought about to provide an excuse while Joan appeared on stage), Cassandra showed up at Collinwood to cast a deathly spell on Liz. By that time, Quentin's ghost had already murdered the psychic Janet Findlay. The next time we see Angelique is in 1795 (1796/whatever) when she tells Barnabas she was sent there as punishment for her behavior in 1968.[/spoiler]
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she knows Chris' secret,
hmm..Midnite, could you elaborate on this? I don't remember Ang ever mentioning this.
It occurs during B&A's first face-to-face in 1897. (The previous time they met up in the tower room, he burned her. :P) Anyway, better that Robin tell it. This is an excerpt from her summary of ep #718.
Robservations 11/7/02 - #718 - Barnabas & Angelique in the Tower
...
Quentin is quite curious about you, she says. Barnabas admits, I feel the same about Quentin. Barnabas sits on the bed. She sits behind him, kneeling, warning, him that Quentin is clever and dangerous Quentin is--how are you going to save David?--how do you plan to solve the secret of the werewolf? Barnabas is stunned she knows all this, and asks how. I care about David, says Angelique, I did know him, and care for him as much as you do. "You care for no one!" shouts Barnabas. ...
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Thank you for sharing your timeline theories, PennyDreadful! I printed them out and am looking forward to poring over them. :D
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Cool Midnite! Trying to figure out the DS mythos is like trying to solve a huge puzzle where many of the pieces don't fit together!
I was thinking, maybe allowing herself to get burned during her banishment to 1795 was the mistake she made which lead to the (conjectured) punishment of having her future-memory wiped out in 1840. Perhaps she is restored to life some time after Barnabas leaves 1795/6, but without her memory. These future memories would, by 1897, be restored.
Also, I think Angelique had access to knowledge most wouldn't. Even if she personally never saw Chris transform into a werewolf, she probably had the ability to keep an eye on the goings-on at Collinwood somehow. I also think Angelique has spent some time going between the earthly plane and that "really warm place downstairs." ;D
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I always thought Angelique's timeline went as follows:
1692 (as Miranda)- she then eventually died.
1795/1796- reincarnated and made a witch per Angelique's Descent.
1840
1968
1796
1897
1970
Angelique was making annual trips to check that Barnabas was still chained in his coffin, so in the original 1840 she saw the chains and then left town. The same goes for 1897.
I always thought that following 1897, there were two Angeliques in the 1968 period. While she was Cassandra at Collinwood, her present self was in New York as a model, eventually meeting Sky Rumson and marrying him. She clearly avoided Collinwood altogether in 1968 to avoid messing anything up.
At the point in 1897 when Quentin is saved from being killed, Barnabas makes a statement "David was never possessed". which would be the true case, as there is no ghost in the present time. But the writers forgot all about this by having present time characters still remember his ghost. By the summer 1970 haunting of Gerard/Daphne, everyone seems to have forgotten Quentin/Beth's haunting by not commenting on the similarites between the two.
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I always thought that following 1897, there were two Angeliques in the 1968 period. While she was Cassandra at Collinwood, her present self was in New York as a model, eventually meeting Sky Rumson and marrying him. She clearly avoided Collinwood altogether in 1968 to avoid messing anything up.
But...
[spoiler]Now I can't remember if it was Julia, Carolyn, or Elizabeth (most likely Carolyn), but when this person found Angelique in Sky's house, didn't she apologize for all the nasty stuff she pulled as Cassandra (and Angelique the vampiress)? She also said that she still had her powers, but she wanted to be "good" from then on, she didn't want to have anything to do with the goings-on at Collinwood.[/spoiler]
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[spoiler]Now I can't remember if it was Julia, Carolyn, or Elizabeth (most likely Carolyn), but when this person found Angelique in Sky's house, didn't she apologize for all the nasty stuff she pulled as Cassandra (and Angelique the vampiress)? She also said that she still had her powers, but she wanted to be "good" from then on, she didn't want to have anything to do with the goings-on at Collinwood.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Julia met Angellique at Sky's and later Barnabas went there. The primary reason she didn't want to have Carolyn and Elizabeth there was that she was afraid they would recognize her as Cassandra, so she certainly didn't have any conversations like that with them. They didn't know anything about her having powers anwyay.[/spoiler]
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all right now that my head is spinning around as time travel always does
have to agree Roland (and welcome) that after all that
time in 1897 that explanation was pretty weak and as Beth was
one of my favorites thought she would have had more gumption
than that!
jennifer ::)
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Thanks everybody for your welcome and comments. They are greatly appreciated.
I understand that time travel scenarios are intrinsically incomprehensible and frustrating. I just wish the writers hadn't made it worse by doing such a sloppy job in this case, since it could have been so easily avoided by simply having someone else kill Quentin the first time around. Oh well...
Another weird inconsistency I just noticed. After Julia comes to 1897, Barnabas tells her that Angelique is there. Julia acts surprised, but why should she be? After all, Beth told her that Angelique was engaged to Quentin even before Julia made the trip back to the past. Yikes
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Another weird inconsistency I just noticed. After Julia comes to 1897, Barnabas tells her that Angelique is there. Julia acts surprised, but why should she be? After all, Beth told her that Angelique was engaged to Quentin even before Julia made the trip back to the past. Yikes
Actually, Beth's ghost never mentioned the name of the woman to Julia.
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Another weird inconsistency I just noticed. After Julia comes to 1897, Barnabas tells her that Angelique is there. Julia acts surprised, but why should she be? After all, Beth told her that Angelique was engaged to Quentin even before Julia made the trip back to the past. Yikes
Actually, Beth's ghost never mentioned the name of the woman to Julia.
You have a point here, although I'm not sure it's an entirely convincing one. Actually, we never hear HOW Beth describes the scene since we are SHOWN the scene instead. I guess one could assume that Beth just said "a woman," although we don't know for sure. Again, I just don't think the writers did a very good job here. They left gaping holes in logic where they really didn't have to.
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Kudoes to Original Timeline Angelique, then, for being on top of things enough to know to be there even without Barney Baby. Or to evan and whoever for her summoning. I guess I ought to point out that circa 1968 is my danger zone. 1968 is my unwatched DS period, at least in recent years.
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Hi Magnus,
This is a bit Off topic, but I wanted to tell you that your drawings are fantastic.
Misa
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I just read this thread for the first time and I think my brain is going to explode.
Nice timeline done by PennyDreadful, thanks for that.