DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '17 I => Topic started by: Gerard on February 26, 2017, 01:32:34 AM
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I was looking at a site where they talked about when "swear" or "filthy" words were first used on television. Words like "damn," "hell," "bitch," "bastard." They started to become common-place by the late eighties. The site talked about "damn," - not "damn," but "damn." Some say it was in the '70's in All In the Family, when during a heated argument, Archie screamed it but it was barely audible because everyone was screaming and, therefore, the censors allowed it. Edith chastised Archie for saying "GD."
I say it was on DS. Unless I'm suffering from DSFMS, it was in the episode where Barnabas was dying from the vampire bat bite and Angelique was arguing with Ben. Thayer David, who was obviously an incredible method actor and immersed himself in a role, was Ben and acted accordingly. If I remember, he went off-script somewhat and shouted at Angelique (paraphrasing here): "I don't care about your damn..." If that actually happened, how did they get away with it? First, DS loathed to re-shoot scenes unless absolutely necessary because it was done live-on-tape. Second, not wanting to re-shoot the scene, the DS PTB hoped the TV PTB censors wouldn't notice. Third, because DS wasn't prime-time, no PTB would care. Fourth, combine all of that together, and it aired with the banned "damn." I haven't seen that scene since the Sci-Fi network stopped airing DS, but I saw it a multitude of times while it did. Do I have DSFMS? If any of you have that episode on tape/DVD, take a look. Am I wrong?
I remember that Star Trek was the first show to use "hell" as a swear word. It wanted to use it on previous episodes when people, especially Bones, wanted to say: "go to hell." It was changed to "go to the devil." Finally, on the classic "City on the Edge of Forever," Kirk said, for the first time: "Let's get the hell out of here." It was almost as much as a cultural shock as when the first interracial kiss happened between Kirk and Uhura. The censors allowed it because they were "forced" to kiss by aliens.
Today, censors are far more, shall we say, liberal. Only non-cable networks still have some restrictions. Cable networks have more freedom. That's why we here words like "shit" on cable programming. It's used on virtually every episode of The Walking Dead. Well, like it or not, that's how people talk. From what I've seen, the only prime-time, non-cable network that has really tried to push the envelope, is American Dad. And it really pushes. On an episode, where Roger worked with Francine in an enterprise, he was on the phone with a client when Francine started berating him. He told the client he had to hang up because the "C-U-Next-Tuesday" was on his back. I thought it was hysterical. I couldn't believe the censors allowed it. But then Roger has said so many outrageous things. I could list them here.
So, did Ben/Thayer David say "damn" on that episode? Those of you who have it, pop it in the player ans see if it's true or am I suffering from DSFMS. If he said it, DS had another first.
Gerard
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Hi Gerard, I don't remember any of the dialogue in the 1795 episode you mention (unlike most other fans, 1795 isn't one of my favorite storylines and I've probably only seen that particular episode once). But I do remember with crystalline clarity Nicholas Blair exulting over Maggie Evans when she was offered upon the Black Altar: "Let the legions of the Damned... salute you!" I'm guessing that line was allowed because the sense in which the word was used was somehow... theological?
Censorship is fascinating. It's also worth noting that it wasn't until 1970 and Leviathan that a couple was shown in bed together--Carolyn and Jeb's doomed night in that motel. And it wasn't until 1971 and the PT 1841 storyline that an unmarried couple were shown, if only by implication, sharing a bed with the scene where Bramwell has his way with Catherine.
Also worth noting that DS may have pioneered the 1980s and 1990s phenomenon of the shirtless soap hunks with Don Briscoe, Joel Crothers, and I need hardly add, David Selby.
Best, G.
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Let the legions of the Damned...
That's not actually 'swearing', it's used correctly (not like damn you Vicki).
unmarried couple were shown, if only by implication, sharing a bed
What about Sebastian Shaw and ....Roxanne (forget character's name in this arc)?
Patti
[edited by admin]
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I remember reading in, I think, The Twilight Zone Companion, that the writers would always try to push the envelope when it came to "course language" and scripts were filled with "damn." Of course, in the late 50's-early 60's, that was unthinkable, but it allowed for a give-and-take to allow something else in, whether language, scenes, plots, etc. "OK, we can't say 'damn,' but then can we..." and it was begrudgingly permitted.
On an episode of Star Trek, Bones was to say "damn." Again, it was give-and-take, and for the first time, for some odd reason, the censors allowed "damnable." He couldn't say "damn," but he was allowed to say "damnable." Makes sense? Well, probably not, but it paved the way for more "realistic" language.
By the early 70's, "damn" and "hell" were permitted as "swear words" on television. "God damn" was not. Like I said, All in the Family was the first to use it (other than what I remember Ben using it on DS) when Archie screamed it out quickly, again the censors maybe allowing it while cringing because of the context in which it was used. Archie was in one of his usual rages, everyone was screaming, and Edith quickly berated him for "always using GD" which he protested saying he "never" said that. Of course, AItF also made history by showing, for the first time ever, male frontal nudity - when Archie had to change his grandson Joey's diaper in a hysterical scene. Norman Lear had to fight with the censors, saying there was no possible way to film it without everything showing and, besides, it involved a weeks-old baby. They caved. Baby Joey also created a social revolution when the doll of him came out with the "warning" that it "anatomically correct." Yup, it had a winky and is now a huge collector's item. M*A*S*H was the first to use "son-of-a-bitch." By the late 80's-early 90's, network censors (and the FCC) allowed "bitch," "bastard" and "ass" full freedom. In the 2010's, the FCC allowed "shit" and "ass" on all non-subscription cable channels (but not prime-time, except in the rarest circumstances).
Dan Curtis broke barriers in 1989 when the FCC allowed him to show full-frontal male-and-female nudity in the episode of War and Remembrance while filming the Auschwitz death-chamber scene (with Sir John Gielgud). Again, like Lear on AItF, he argued there was no possible way to shoot it realistically (as it should have been) without nudity. The brutality of the Holocaust could not be presented in any other way. It was the same back in the mid-70's when the FCC/censors allowed topless women to be shown on the first episode of Roots. It had to do with historical accuracy when showing women in African culture where women's breasts were not considered sexual; however, women's legs were in African culture, so they were always covered.
In the mid-90's, Schindler's List was aired on prime-time but only after Spielberg insisted it be done so uncut and uncensored, meaning all the R-rated elements, from language, nudity to violence be shown. The FCC permitted it with the caveat that a warning be presented at the beginning that "viewer discretion is advised."
Cinematic and televised programming has changed a great deal. Back in 1969, Midnight Cowboy was the first and only X-rated (now NC-17) film to win the Oscar as best picture. Today, it can air during the day on any channel without any cuts or censoring. It's contents, by today's standards, are considered "mild." Many surviving soap operas show far "harsher" material.
Gerard
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non-subscription cable channels (but not prime-time, except in the rarest circumstances).
I was (and still am) shocked when, on 'Mark Greene's' farewell episode on "er", he said s**t.
I actually saw it on a day-time rerun, and they didn't 'bleep' it out.
I was proud of NBC, because of the context, it was real and necessary (real life).
Patti
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I say it was on DS. Unless I'm suffering from DSFMS, it was in the episode where Barnabas was dying from the vampire bat bite and Angelique was arguing with Ben. Thayer David, who was obviously an incredible method actor and immersed himself in a role, was Ben and acted accordingly. If I remember, he went off-script somewhat and shouted at Angelique (paraphrasing here): "I don't care about your damn..."
Admittedly, I didn't check the DVD, but I honestly don't recall the d-word during that exchange. However, Roger did say it very early in the series. In the infamous hundred miles/hundred feet episode (#17), after Bill Malloy points out that they can't prove that Burke tampered with the bleeder valve, Roger tells him, "I don't give a damn about proof." So yes, we heard it on DS in 1966.
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i could be wrong but during the entire five year run i think the newlywed Mr. and Mrs. Jeb Hawkes was the first and only time we ever saw a couple in bed together. [snow_shocked]
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I watched Duel: Bette and Joan on the cable Fox. It's not subscription. Not only did it throw the "f" word around, it also included the "c" word. I was, shall we, say "shocked;" not by the words, but that they are now obviously allowed on non-subscription cable TV. It's like when the "f" word was first allowed in, ironically, '81's Mommie Dearest uttered by Faye Dunaway (Don't "f" with me, fellas!") in a PG-13 rather than an R-rated movie. And in '97, for the first time in a PG-13 movie, one saw a woman's breasts in Titanic.
But it all makes me think of the "urban legend" that DC and the other PTB's originally considered Joan Crawford for the role of Elizabeth Collins Stoddard, but because of her own "spirits" problems, she was rejected. An urban legend it remains, with anecdotes and possible evidence not completely provable, such as naming the Titanic's following sister-ship the Gigantic (discarded, according to urban legend after the sinking and renamed the Britannic, which, herself, was sunk as a WWI hospital ship after striking a mine in Greek waters) and the original Queen Mary (now permanently berthed in California as a combination hotel/resort/museum/conference-space) being named the Queen Victoria but when the current King, who's wife was named Mary, was asked if the ship could be named after England's most "illustrious" Queen (meaning Victoria) and he said: "My wife would be delighted!" Well, how do you get out of that? Finally, the Cunard Line launched and named a ship Queen Victoria. I was fortunate to sail aboard her.
Gerard
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Personally, my favorite exchange from the show was this one:
Quotes of the Week for March 5, 2017 - FEUD: BETTE AND JOAN (Bonus Quote!) (http://tvline.com/gallery/saturday-night-live-revised-travel-ban-best-tv-quotes/#!4/feud-miss-crawfords-bush-quote/)
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I love Jackie Hoffmann! She does quite a lot of stage worth in NYC. I got to see her as the muse Calliope in the Broadway version of Xanadu. There was a spot in the show for her to adlib (to pick on the audience is more accurate). One night It was my turn. Not only did I make my Broadway debut but I got two huge laughs.
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i wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that DC and company had at some early stage of development "considered" JC for the role of Liz.
at the time, and continuing well into the 1980s, it was becoming somewhat common practice to cast, shall we say, slightly "past their prime" actresses from Hollywood's "golden age" in frothy roles as dowagers and matriarchs on soap operas.
the pay was probably chump change compared to what they had earned on the big screen at their peak. but it was regular work which by the 1960s was not easy to come by. and dented egos were placated by special "starring" or "above the title" billing (which we certainly saw with Joan on DS well after Jonathan Frid was the clearly established star) and lavish wardrobe.
i don't know exactly JB was ultimately selected but there was probably a list of actresses from the period in preliminary consideration.
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Speaking of Feud: B & J, does anyone else get a vibe from this shot of Susan Sarandon of, besides Bette Davis, another redhead often spotted with round glasses and a cigarette?
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Yes - definitely! [snow_wink]
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Ooh...
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I remember damn and hell as being rare in the 60s but allowed once in a great while. That I suppose I could be wrong about, but I was there. With Trek's City on the Edge of Forever, not once in my 50 years of watching it and hearing about it have I heard that it was the first appearance of "hell" on TV... only that it was the first on Star Trek. As for societal impact, even the "first inter-racial kiss" did not have a huge impact then, because Star Trek was a fringe show that was having trouble staying on the air.
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Just imagine, maybe in a parallel time/universe, they had actually cast JC as Elizabeth and BD as Julia. Think of what it would've been like on the set.
Gerard
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I enjoyed Crawford in her films, but she would have been disastrous casting as Liz. In the original film MOMMIE DEAREST in which Legendary Faye Dunaway portrayed the no-holds-barred diva, they re-staged the time Joan decided to substitute for daughter Christina when the latter was hospitalized while appearing on a soap opera at some point in the mid to late 1960s. It's a hilarious sequence.
Subsequently, an audio tape of Joan doing one of these scenes was uploaded to Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG-DkuB1V28
I've known a number of people who criticized Joan Bennett's acting on DS. I thought Joan B was superb. She had the grit and the professionalism to carry off a scene even when she was unable to get the script down. And when she was on... she was ON. Joan C could also be excellent but not all actors can do the kind of act-on-your-feet work required in something like DS.
G.
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I imagine, Gothic, if the "urban legend" is true that they considered Crawford for the role of Liz, her problems with - um, how shall we say? paraphrasing Elton John here - "vodka and Pepsi's" kept her from getting the part. When she stood in for her daughter Christina in Secret Storm, they say she did fantastic in rehearsal - spot on. But when the cameras rolled, that's when it all fell apart. People on the set reportedly said that she got "nervous" when it was time for a take and that's when she had her vodka's-and Pepsi's-minus-the-Pepsi's" (like one of my favorite lines from Gilligan's Island when Lovey asked Thurston: "Have you been eating brandy and peaches again without the peaches?").
I could clearly see Crawford doing the part of Liz. She was classy, still a star despite Hollywood's sexist ageism, and in the public eye, especially after she altered her characterizations to become a "screen-scream-queen" after Whatever Happened to Baby Jane and all the William Castle films. There could not have been a more perfect fit. If that urban legend is true, what a loss. Poor Crawford wouldn't be able to deal with the rigor of day-after-day, week-after-week TV series work without her cooler filled with vodka. And when she had the cooler, she couldn't do it. If she blew it in movies because she was schnockered, they could always do a re-take or come back and do it the next day. It couldn't be done on live-to-tape TV. Secret Storm, sadly, proved that.
Gerard
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a friend of mine calls these actresses during this period, perhaps uncharitably, the "hatchet hags"...
as their "leading ladies" days wound down in the 1960s and 70s they were able to find work in the "horror" and "disaster" genres (as well as soap operas). perhaps launched with WHTBJ they played a series of ghoulish sendups of themselves and although a bit tarnished their names and presence lent cache to these often schlocky or "B" productions.
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It's fortunate that Hollywood now treats its senior actresses with a bit more dignity, style and appreciation. They aren't "cast" off when they hit 50 (for the most part). That had been an issue in Glitter City, even back in the early 1950's among writers, producers, etc., with industry self-critical anti-ageist, anti-sexist classics like Sunset Boulevard and All About Eve. Unfortunately, Hollywood while criticizing itself did not do anything about it. By the '60's, grande dames like Crawford and Davis had to resort to being "hatchet hags" (I love that term!) to keep their careers alive and pay the bills. Even though most of their horror-schlock films were less than B-grade level, they took their roles seriously showing their professionalism. Davis seemed to do better with higher-quality (if, in some cases, only slightly) films such as WHTBJ, Hush...Hush, Sweet Charlotte (with another "grande dame" Olivia de Havilland taking over for Crawford's part after Crawford was fired) and the Hammer classic The Nanny. And there was also Dead Ringer. She also, ironically, was directed by Dan Curtis in Burnt Offerings. While taking roles in horror-schlock, she still managed to remain in mainstream movies (and TV mini-series productions) that were straight-forward drama, including The Whales of August.
Poor Crawford never was able to achieve the same. Virtually everything she made, whether on film or on TV, was horror-schlock until the day she died. Not to say some weren't good - her work in Eyes in the pilot of Rod Serling's Night Gallery directed by a young, unknown guy named Steven Spielberg was truly brilliant and critically acclaimed. But even in the worst-of-worst, she always did her best and rose above the schlocky material. In her last film, the simply awful Trog, her performance stood out. While the critics justifiably pounded the movie, they were kind to Crawford's performance, saying it was the only good thing about it.
By the '70's, using the "senior" actresses in roles switched from horror to disaster. Shelly Winters received an Oscar nomination for The Poseidon Adventure. De Havilland appeared in Airport 77 and the really dreadful The Swarm. Gloria Swanson played herself in Airport 75. And Jennifer Jones returned to the screen after many years of absence and was praised for her part in the uber-classic The Towering Inferno where she was teamed up the equal Hollywood legend Fred Astaire. She's the only great classical actress, an Oscar winner, who fell to her death 1,000 feet from a glass elevator.
Today, many senior actresses, in their 60's on up, can still find dignified work, from Faye Dunaway to Helen Mirren. They can be in films, portraying women their age, that are huge commercial and critical successes. People flock to theaters and Oscars are handed out. They no longer have to play psycho-biddies running around with axes or sweet, old ladies being crushed and drowned under tsunamis. Hollywood has come a long way from learning its lesson that it treats older women like garbage as portrayed in Sunset Boulevard.
Joe: "Norma, there's nothing wrong with a woman who's 50." Sunset Boulevard
Gerard
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today of course was also have the increasingly important category of "prestige television" for actresses over 50 to soften their landing and often find some of their best work. Lang in particular has had an incredibly successful second act in genre. 'Feud' certainly typifies that.
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If Joan Crawford had been cast on DS in any capacity, I can just imagine how prominently Pepsi product placement would sneak its way into publicity pictures and maybe even into the program itself.
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Lang in particular has had an incredibly successful second act in genre. 'Feud' certainly typifies that.
And to think Lange got her "start" in the horrible '76 remake of King Kong. One would think it would've sunk her career. But she gave her all and put in a top-notch performance in a simply dreadful film. Because of her intensity to perform her highly talented craft, she survived and thrived. It's like how BD and JC had to do the same thing in the "twilight" of their careers but reversed.
Gerard
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If Joan Crawford had been cast on DS in any capacity, I can just imagine how prominently Pepsi product placement would sneak its way into publicity pictures and maybe even into the program itself.
LOL, Uncle Roger! Imagine, Roger would have to say as he held his sniffer: "I'm having a brandy-and-Pepsi." At the Blue Whale, customers would order a vodka-and-Pepsi.
Gerard
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And David could beat Laverne DeFazio to the punch by drinking milk and Pepsi!😮😝😮
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The 1953 classic Queen Bee gives an idea of what JC would have been like as Liz. A very different kind of matriarch but one full of imperious grandeur and in full possession of her personal authority over her beleaguered family. I would say that Joan C's performance in that film illustrates just why she would not have been good casting for Liz. Casting is not so much about ability as it is about nuance, personality and something imponderable we call "fit" for lack of any more articulate way of expressing it.
A major difference between our Joan and Joan C is that our Joan did have a background in theater and occasionally went on what she called "buck and truss" tours (I would guess in the 1950s and early 1960s when work had dried up due to the negative impact of the Walter Wanger scandal on her career). She came from a theatrical family with a solid history in the craft. I would say that that was what gave Joan the wherewithal to sail through her scenes with such quietly grounded focus even when her lines weren't perfect on DS. As I've shared before, Nancy Barrett did tell me once how terrified Joan would look at moments when they were standing next to one another in the middle of a scene and Joan had suddenly dried. But somehow, the camera never caught that. I always felt that Joan, like Jonathan, made her difficulty with lines work in how she expressed the character of Liz. The words not always being exact became, somehow, an expression of the iron will of an indomitable woman. And we loved her for that.
G.
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It is interesting, Gothic, that the one film Christina Crawford hates that her mother appeared in was Queen Bee, according to her autobiography Mommie Dearest. She wrote that she was mortified while watching it on the big screen because the character portrayed by her mother was exactly the way she was in real life at home.
And you're right about Joan Bennett being probably the perfect fit for Elizabeth based upon her own career on stage and screen and the fact that she came from a family long established in the acting craft. She stated in an interview (was it on The Dick Cavette Show?) that she was fortunate in being a "short-study," meaning she could learn and remember lines quickly, something required for filming five shows a week, one after another. One could see on DS, if she blanked out, she knew how to incorporate it and improv if necessary, such as when she couldn't initially remember the name of the Brazilian city Belem. And if a set blooper happened because some "stagery" went whoops! she just dealt with it such as, during the climactic scene of Carolyn screaming out "Mrs. Maguire! Mrs. Maguire!" and Liz fled up the stairs, the door at the top got stuck. She just pulled and pounded on it. It was like the whole thing was almost scripted. Many other actresses might've been unable to deal with these situations, and I think Crawford would've been the worst when "stuff happens." Especially if she had a "Pepsi" just before going on the camera.
Gerard
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a friend of mine calls these actresses during this period, perhaps uncharitably, the "hatchet hags"...
Apparently the whole genre of films like Whatever Happened to Baby Jane is called "Hagsploitation". Honestly, until I came across this article -
‘Feud’ is about the birth of the ‘Hagsploitation’ film: The 5 that came next (http://screenertv.com/television/5-titles-that-came-after-feud-on-fx/)
- I'd never heard of the term...
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I had always heard the genre referred to as Psycho Biddies.