DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '04 I => Topic started by: stefan on April 04, 2004, 10:53:35 PM
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Common, let's battle this one out! I usually hold out BIG TIME over Angelique but my disqust over her knows no bounds!
Thought Lara Parker was tremendous in the role but the character was psychotic and responsible (if not directly but indirectly) for murder after murder. What I can't understand is why people feel sympathetic towards her. I see Angelique as a great villaness ...strong, seductive, evil and manipulative but I never saw her as a heroine or anyone capable of leading a normal life. As the DS's most successful "bad person" the race should have been on to get rid of her like Professor Moriarty in the Sherlock Holmes stories. I guess the DS writers did their job only TOO well...the audience became just as spellbound as eventually did Barnabas, though I feel his final submission to Angelique was one of the most profoundly disturbing things to come of DS and obviously the result of a Stockholm Syndrome.
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Why do people like this woman??
Damned if I know. I could never stand her and STILL can't. Even as a witch she wasn't terribly competent. Seems like she screwed up on many an occasion.
With Barnabas I can only think it was some other part of his anatomy doing the thinking. ::) Maybe it's a "guy" thing. (???) But even Quentin, who would pretty much go after anything in a skirt, seemed to spend quite a bit of time avoiding her. [lghy]
[gring]
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I've always referred to her as the one I love to hate. She was so beautiful, and it was often quite fun the way she performed her spells. I loved to watch her and especially her interactions with Barnabas. But, as the character, Angelique, I hated her and could never believe that Barnabas changed. Given all she had done to him, that seemed impossible.
It's one of the reasons I liked 1970 PT.
[spoiler]For a while, even though we couldn't be sure she was Alexis, she really WAS Alexis and for once I could really like her!![/spoiler]
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In my humble opinion--and as a DS viewer for almost 40 years--I believe Lara Parker brought to the role Angelique's belief that everything she did was the right thing to do. The best villains always believe in their own minds hat their way is the right way. Angelique is no different. One need only look at the classic story of THE LADY OR THE TIGER to discover Angelique's internal motives.
Anyway, Lara Parker IS Angelique, no matter who else has or will play the role. She's first and best--and she made the part her own.
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Anyway, Lara Parker IS Angelique, no matter who else has or will play the role. She's first and best--and she made the part her own.
Yes. Absolutely. Angelique is Angelique because Lara Parker created her. I don't care how unique or interesting a story or script may be. It's the actor that makes or doesn't make the character. Not only is she the "first and best" like you say, IMHO she is the ONLY. Just like Frid created Barnabas, Hall created Julia, Selby created the Quentins - 1897, 1840, 1995, etc., (all distinctly different), Edmonds created Roger, and so on. The characters grew from these people and came into being. That's why I think it's meaningless to have other people playing them in a new series. Some may think I'm being fanatical, but as far as I'm concerned, Dark Shadows is unique, sacred ground. If they wanna make a new series they'd do much better creating their OWN new characters - descendents or relatives of the Collins family. (Just my very, very, very, humble, unpopular opinion) [grinb]
Anyway, it was Parker's realism that enabled me to hate Angelique. How can you hate someone who hasn't been made real to you! Hey, ya know what? I think her portrayal of Angelique in NODS was superior to the one on the show. She was much more sensual, erotic, and more beautiful.
"Bring the painting to life, Charles..."
YES!!! :o [thumb]
8)
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Well, for one thing, IMHO she's never boring. And as much as I love to hate her I always find her scenes exiting. Oh, she's bad alright, but it's when she's bad that she's very good! I think she added so much exitement to the show too. And lets not forget Barnabas, who wasn't exactly the innocent victim here either, after all, he did have a fling with her in Martinique, and it was that fling that caused her to do all the things that she did. And although what she did was wrong she seemed to believe in everything that she did. She was definetely ruled by her emotions and also seemed to have alot of pent up jealousy towards Josette.
I often wished that we could have seen that fling in Martinique. I think it would have at least given us a better perceptive on what exactly had transpired between them back then. Im not talking about the physical part here (as Im sure we all know what went on) but rather the emotional part of the whole thing. Did he lead her on? Did he promise her anything or give her any kind of hope for a future relationship? When she first arrived in 1795 at the old house, she seemed to have expected him to resume where they had left off in Martinique. He, on the other hand seemed rather perplexed at the whole thing, so either she completely misunderstood the whole thing or he was lying through his teeth. We all heard the saying about a "woman scorned" but what I loved to know is how she was before all that happened? Was she just as evil in Martinique or did her reign of terror all start once she arrived in Collinwood?
Cassandra
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....Did he lead her on? Did he promise her anything or give her any kind of hope for a future relationship? When she first arrived in 1795 at the old house, she seemed to have expected him to resume where they had left off in Martinique. He, on the other hand seemed rather perplexed at the whole thing...
Well, I for one would not only have liked to have seen their relationship in Martinique, but the sex as well!! lol
Back then, I would think that was serious business -- not like today, where people go around sleeping with anyone and everyone and it doesn't seem to mean much.
I love that scene in 1968 I think it is, where Angelique's been biting him and has him in that cave. She starts talking about that night in Martinique and the "pledge" they made to each other. Then Barnabas says, "I made no pledge!". Then she says, "Not every pledge is made with words."
Yeah -- that Barnabas is not exactly an innocent victim. He's like "wham bam, thank you m'am". And THEN when she shows up in Collinsport, he's like, "Duh......". [lghy]
What an a**hole!
It's just like Fatal Attraction. Angelique wasn't about to be treated like some "slut you bang a few times and then throw in the garbage."
I love Glenn Close's line in that film: "I'm not going to be igNORED Dan."
I guess Angelique wasn't about to be ignored either. LOL!
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I believe Lara Parker brought to the role Angelique's belief that everything she did was the right thing to do.
And that's what made her sooooo bad. A brilliant acting choice on her part (I hear JF helped with her it).
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That's why I think it's meaningless to have other people playing them in a new series. Some may think I'm being fanatical, but as far as I'm concerned, Dark Shadows is unique, sacred ground.
I tend to agree with you on this point. DS had that special something. A combination of the right time, direction, production, actors etc. I'd also prefer a continuation of the series but not a duplicate.
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And lets not forget Barnabas, who wasn't exactly the innocent victim here either, after all, he did have a fling with her in Martinique, and it was that fling that caused her to do all the things that she did.
Yes, absolutely. BUT just what DID Barnabas unleash? It doesn't make sense really that Angelique never used her spells before and never caused havoc before either. Her attitude towards what she did to Sarah and Jeramiah was callous in the extreme and very smooth, just a days work for her.
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Cassandra and Connie, I agree with you all the way. Barnabas knew exactly what will going on and he lied through his teeth, when confronted by Angelique. ::)
Lara Parker was Angelique. Sure, she did some things that were pretty darn bad, but everybody did some things on that show that were, well...pretty darn bad.
But, finally, she won. But, we won't go into that.
Her hair was beautiful. When I was 17, I went to this Halloween party, and it's her I dressed up as. I had my long blond hair, I had put body powder (thank you Avon) on my face, my mother had made me a long flowing dress, that was really a sheet but it looked cool, vampire teeth and I was ready to go. The next night was Halloween, so a bunch of my friends, me in with them, got dressed up again, stood behind brushes, popped up and scared a lot of children. It was great. :o
Why do I love Angelique? I love her because she does things her way. And when someone gets in her way......well...I feel sorry for them...maybe 15 seconds...and I'm cheering her on again. When she comes on the t.v. screen, it's like the t.v. lights up. She's like the women lib of Collinsport. ;)
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What i used to wonder about was while ole B was hopping around thru time, why didnt he jump back to 5 minutes BEFORE meeting Angelique, seems he could have avoided a lot of trouble..That romp on the beach with A had to be fun, but the consequences was a bit much.
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The fascination with Angelique is classic, and very simple. Everybody loves a really good, no-holds-barred villain. I thought Parker's work in the role went way beyond portrayal... she MOLDED Angelique to the unscrupulous, obsessed Witch we all loved to hate. I think as Connie said, this was really true of all the DS actors and their characters. At least it is certainly true of the people she mentioned, because they were simply very extraordinary actors. The eccentric elan with which they lived their lives offstage bled through into the sizzle and spark they gave their characterizations before the cameras.
I can never really chose a favorite, but if I had to select a favorite Barnabas/Angelique scene, it would be the showdown between Cassandra and her erstwhile hubby in the Old House after Nicholas has removed her powers. In less than a page of dialogue, they covered all the insanity of the emotional ups and downs these two went through with one another. And both Parker and Frid played it brilliantly. I still remember watching that as a child--glued to the tube doesn't begin to describe it!
G.
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I think it's a combination of things: Lara Parker; the unfairly scorned woman; the ability to have remorse and actually do something nice. Angelique (save for the PT1970 one) did do terrible, rotten, horrible things, and would then surprise you and do something, often at great risk, that was redeeming.
Gerard
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Angelique (save for the PT1970 one) did do terrible, rotten, horrible things, and would then surprise you and do something, often at great risk, that was redeeming.
Yeah - that's one thing I sort of liked about her - when she would turn around and do something to help someone. (BUT usually there was some benefit to her if I'm not mistaken) ?? [lghy]
Gerard -- you forgot about the crap she pulled in PT1970. She nearly killed Quentin with that voodoo doll and the pin, and then there was all the conspiring she did with Hoffman to split Quentin and Maggie apart. ALSO.....that spell she put on Quentin that made him lose his mind and nearly kill himself.
Oh yeah....I forgot to put in my two cents in this thread as to exactly WHY I hate Angelique. 'Cause she's an EVIL, CONNIVING BITCH. [grinb]
[wave]
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you forgot about the crap she pulled in PT1970. She nearly killed Quentin with that voodoo doll and the pin, and then there was all the conspiring she did with Hoffman to split Quentin and Maggie apart. ALSO.....that spell she put on Quentin that made him lose his mind and nearly kill himself.
I agree Connie, and I think that this Angelique was the most evilest out of them all. She seemed to care for no one, except herself!
Cassandra
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Oh, she certainly was, Connie and Cassandra. PT1970 Angelique, unlike all the other incarnations, was absolutely, totally evil with only her own benefit of any concern to her. I heard via the DS fan grapevine that should DS have continued, Dan Curtis was going to revisit PT and have Angelique once again rise from the dead, becoming a corporate exec at Enron.
Gerard
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........should DS have continued, Dan Curtis was going to revisit PT and have Angelique once again rise from the dead, becoming a corporate exec at Enron.
[lghy]
(Rainey wipes coffee off monitor.... ::))
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Oh yeah....I forgot to put in my two cents in this thread as to exactly WHY I hate Angelique. 'Cause she's an EVIL, CONNIVING BITCH. [grinb]
Well, yeah! And that's exactly why I LOVE her! [clap]
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.....I think that this Angelique was the most evilest out of them all. She seemed to care for no one, except herself!
Yes. Come to think of it, when you add it all up, she WAS the most evil. She even killed her own sister! (I mean, I can understand the sentiment, but REALLY.....that IS going a bit far. Don't you think?) And people wonder why PT Quentin was rather cranky at times and had a tendency to fly off the handle. He'd been MARRIED to that broad.
(Rainey wipes coffee off monitor.... ::))
You know, Rainey, you REALLY should stop drinking coffee at the computer. [lghy]
What a mess.
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Stefan Wrote:
Yes, absolutely. BUT just what DID Barnabas unleash? It doesn't make sense really that Angelique never used her spells before and never caused havoc before either. Her attitude towards what she did to Sarah and Jeramiah was callous in the extreme and very smooth, just a days work for her.
I find that hard to believe also but then I wonder just what did she do before she came to Collinwood? We know she was the Dupree's maid so she more than likely spent all her time with them, and yet, when they all came to Collinwood and witnessed all the "strange happenings" going on around them, the Dupree's all seemed suprised. The Countess had even read her Tarot cards at the old house and was certain that "a wicked woman" was amongst them? Well, couldn't she have seen this in her cards in Martinique? ???
Cassandra
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I believe Lara Parker's secret to success in her electric portrayal of Angelique can be found in a comment made by actress Patty McCormack, who was in town a few years back, commenting on how she (Patty) approached the role of murderous pig-tailed Rhoda from "The Bad Seed":
"I didn't play Rhoda like she was bad - I played her like she was 'right' !"
Lara Parker seemed to approach Angelique in a similiar manner - and many of us applauded her because she'd been rejected/hurt by love, and we can all identify with that emotion.
Gothick mentioned the famous Barnabas/Cassandra showdown scene - I've noted that episode in a previous post as my first DS episode, so perhaps Lara's characterization reeled me in (though I was equally impressed with Frid and Grayson Hall, and later smitten with Don Briscoe).
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I always ask myself why I don't hate Angelique because I know, as many have said here, that she is just EVIL! But for most of the reasons cited, I just can't help but love her. It's always exciting when Angelique shows up and, again like many have said, she really believes she's right. Then there are times when I find myself feeling sorry for her, at least a little, like during the Cassandra storyline and then later when she's under Nicholas' thumb. Crazy or not, in the end I always end up thinking she's just sad because she just can never let go of her love for Barnabas!
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I believe Lara Parker's secret to success in her electric portrayal of Angelique can be found in a comment made by actress Patty McCormack, who was in town a few years back, commenting on how she (Patty) approached the role of murderous pig-tailed Rhoda from "The Bad Seed":
"I didn't play Rhoda like she was bad - I played her like she was 'right' !"
i think you are right on that one Patty's M's Rhoda still is one of the most chilling
portrayal's of a killer i've ever seen! She deserved an Oscar!Angelique should have a chapter
in a psych book devoted to her She was pure ME at all costs! Parker was great and no one
can ever replace her IMHO! >:D
jennifer
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Yes. Absolutely. Angelique is Angelique because Lara Parker created her. I don't care how unique or interesting a story or script may be. It's the actor that makes or doesn't make the character. Not only is she the "first and best" like you say, IMHO she is the ONLY. Just like Frid created Barnabas, Hall created Julia, Selby created the Quentins - 1897, 1840, 1995, etc., (all distinctly different), Edmonds created Roger, and so on. The characters grew from these people and came into being. That's why I think it's meaningless to have other people playing them in a new series. Some may think I'm being fanatical, but as far as I'm concerned, Dark Shadows is unique, sacred ground. If they wanna make a new series they'd do much better creating their OWN new characters - descendents or relatives of the Collins family. (Just my very, very, very, humble, unpopular opinion) [grinb]
8)
well Connie i totally agree with you i didn't like 1991 and feel that i'll feel the same way about this new show!
jennifer
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Crazy or not, in the end I always end up thinking she's just sad because she just can never let go of her love for Barnabas!
Given from what we eventually learn and see about Angelique I suspect her feelings for Barnabas were more in the lines of selfish obsession rather than love. I don't believe someone like Angelique (and I'm sure there's a word for her in the abnormal pathology textbooks) could be capable of love as it is described. No matter how angry you are at someone you don't torture their little sister and uncle as a result. That's not love.
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As far as liking Angelique, well, I never have.
Cassandra was fun for me though, mainly because I think she was just so inept most of the time, and at the same time so damned determined.
I'm not a huge Lara Parker fan, but I thought she played all the character incarnations really well. I agree with the others who have stated that it's partly because she treated the characters with such conviction.
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Gerard -- you forgot about the crap she pulled in PT1970. She nearly killed Quentin with that voodoo doll and the pin, and then there was all the conspiring she did with Hoffman to split Quentin and Maggie apart. ALSO.....that spell she put on Quentin that made him lose his mind and nearly kill himself.
Yes, but that WAS a different Angelique, after all--- she and twin Alexis were personification of the different sides of RT Angelique. After the "good twin" was gone, that's just to show what would have happened if RT Angelique completely turned from her own "good" side (whether to her gain or not.)
It could even be argued that PT Angelique was an example of the popular psychological temporizing which theories were first being publicized in those days---- that she was not entirely to blame for her evil or amorality. Her mother married PT Stokes with her two little girls in tow, and given his own weirdness, maybe there was something beyond trying to gain favor with his stepdaughters.... Simply put, there may well have been some incestuous activity; Angelique responded favorably, Alexis did not, and the latter escaped at the first opportunity.
Then, apparently after her mother's death, the VERY young Angelique got into the sights of the dashing Collins heir---- perhaps that was part of dirty daddy's plans? Then, somehow, along the way, she acquired a too-worshipful housekeeper / personal maid, and ere long, was seducing and teasing all the men within the radius of Collinsport. Then, she died mysteriously, and dirty daddy moved heaven and hell to revive her. OK, a blatant rip-off of "Rebecca" with supernatural BS thrown in, but more explicit.
As to whatever motivated the RT Angelique, it should be noted that there was no mention whatsoever of her activities, whether good or bad, once removed from the combined irritants of Barnabas, the Collins family, and Collinsport. She had been considered "ordinary" in Martinique, and apparently gave satisfaction in her lowly employment, no spells or "nose-twitching" to get chores done, anyway. That, later, she apparently met and married Sky Rumson while living a "normal" life, working as a model, without use of her powers (and even giving them up until spit hit the fan) showed that she was capable of ethical behavior, if not provoked.
And as for Barnabas.... by the time he reconciled with Angelique, he and she were about even in the murder department, and just about every other facet of badness, and zig-zagging with morality and what was still left of their consciences. In real life, maybe that wouldn't happen, but in the context of a soap opera, it made sense (and has been done ad nauseum on soaps ever since...)
L.
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And as for Barnabas.... by the time he reconciled with Angelique, he and she were about even in the murder department, and just about every other facet of badness, and zig-zagging with morality and what was still left of their consciences
Barnabas murdered people (if that's what it's called) because he was a vampire. He was made a vampire by Angelique and we all know the story. Essentially Angelique held him hostage as a vampire for hundreds of years.
Maybe it's because Angelique did all her dirty work from the "next room" or some place usually away from the victim her actions appear to be acceptable and somehow exciting. If, for example, the audience actually saw Angelique physically kick and smack Sarah in the face and chest area instead of probably causing even more damage by sticking pins to Sarah's doll in another room, the reality of what she was doing would be more apparent.
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If, for example, the audience actually saw Angelique physically kick and smack Sarah in the face and chest area instead of probably causing even more damage by sticking pins to Sarah's doll in another room, the reality of what she was doing would be more apparent.
That's very true, stefan. It's an excellent point. And if it doesn't make one see Angelique in an extremely bad light, nothing will...
That being said, though, as many have already pointed out, a good deal of Angelique's appeal with fans is that Lara Parker played her so well. Yes, some fans do sympathize with her - and in light of what you point out, one has to wonder about that - but at the same time it's possible to frequently despise the woman as well as her actions while still getting caught up in it all. With Parker's amazing performances, one can't help but get drawn to the character and caught up in her - yes, even as twisted and reprehensible as she all too often is. The phrase "love to hate" was designed specifically for characters like Angelique.
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That being said, though, as many have already pointed out, a good deal of Angelique's appeal with fans is that Lara Parker played her so well.
I totally agree with this and I'm a big Lara Parker fan despite my aversion to Angelique. I think the writing also inadvertently (and this may or may not have been deliberate in the beginning) tapped into an interesting phenomenon by keeping victim and predator apart, distancing Angelique from the worst of her deeds, and thus enabling her as a viable character throughout DS's run as both heroine and villan.
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thus enabling her as a viable character throughout GH's run as both heroine and villan.
From: Re:Sexual Harassment at the Collinsport Inn Diner?--I'm sure it's a scene the GH staff would like to forget.
GH?
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GH?
ooops sorry, I also post at a General Hospital board. Got the names mixed up. I meant Dark Shadows, of course, ahem...
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LOL, stefan.
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Angelique is one of the show's most fascinating characters. She caused a lot of evil whether she was [spoiler]a witch or vampire[/spoiler] no doubt but you could always count on some excitement whenever she came on.
Lara Parker was just fabulous!