DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
Members' Mausoleum => Calendar Events / Announcements Archive => Calendar Events / Announcements '25 I => Calendar Events / Announcements '14 II => Topic started by: David on November 17, 2014, 03:35:31 PM
-
http://69.195.124.61/~filmsinr/2014/11/16/the-shadows-on-the-halls/
Written by noted film historian and journalist David Del Valle.
-
Well, anyone who has read Sam's interview in the DS Files series of books from back in the '80s shouldn't be surprised by most of that. And truthfully, Sam is hardly the only source that has had less than flattering things to say about DC. So...
-
The extent of Sam's bitterness and the allegations regarding his sexuality were not previously known, though.
Hall's alleged snobbishness is what I'd expect.
-
When it comes to Sam's bitterness, that was pretty much known. As for the other, well, I'd say the personal opinions the writer stated about Sam himself, while they may or may not be true, were expressed in a very similar manner to the way Sam was criticized for expressing his opinions about DC, so the writer hardly comes off looking better than his subject...
-
why was Sam bitter? Jealous of Grayson's fame?
Curtis, for all his faults, gave Sam a career and revived Grayson's then sagging career.
-
I did think the writer's anecdote that Sam urged the hot hunky camera guy to strip down to his shorts and "take advantage" of the pool hilarious. I've seen many queenie older men do that.
-
When it comes to Sam's bitterness toward DC, his reasons are pretty well expressed in that DS Files interview (and there are corroborations in some other interviews from the books, such as with Art Wallace, Robert Costello , ...). And the interview and many of the things Sam had said have been discussed a few times on the forum...
-
I swear I missed all that. I better do some homework.
And yet, Sam came back for the 1991 revival.
I do take issue with Sam being compared to Barbara Cartland--he did some brilliant writing on DS.
-
I'm sure Sam made a lot more with his work on OLTL than he ever did for DC and Dark Shadows. So I hardly think Wildercliff was "the house that Dan Curtis built." What a profoundly stupid and RUDE thing to say.
G.
-
Although this is being picky, the concentration/death camp scene with Sir John Gielgud was in War and Remembrance, not The Winds of War. In TWOW, the character was played by John Houseman; in WAR, he was played by Gielgud.
Gerard
-
Nothing new in that article. The gossip (and that's all it is) regarding sexualities has been around for as long as I can remember (and is creepy the way it's all handled in this piece). As MB has pointed out, the rest of the material has been brought up by Sam Hall or others in the past decades.
-
I definitely take issue with the author's claim that Sam Hall was a "hack", Sam did a lot of brilliant writing on DS.
But David Del Valle's credentials as a journalist and historian are impeccable. Likewise, Films in Review has a long and respected history of intelligent and intellectual film writing.
I suspect the portrait of Sam painted by Del Valle is far closer to the truth than many people would care to admit.
Along with many fans, I prefer to hear the truth--including about sexualities--from a real journalist. Because the truth tells me who these people really are/were, and that offers insight into the making of DS which enhances my enjoyment of it.
-
Despite the fact that I was a fairly obsessive DS collector, I passed on many of the Files Magazines. I've checked the ones I did buy and can't find the Sam Hall interview. Does anyone know the volume it in which it was published?
-
Doctor and K9, I think MB means the DS Files book edited by Edward Gross (no relation to Darren Gross, so far as I recall). To me the most interesting selection in the book was an interview with Grayson, which Gross claimed was the last interview she ever did before her illness.
The last I heard, the book, which is out of print, was selling for outrageous prices on the internet, but some diligent fan might have scanned at least some of the material.
G.
-
Thank you Gothick. Yes there were several of those Files Magazines, and I have a number of them. Unfortunately, I don't have the one with Sam Hall's interview. Does anyone know which edition has the interview? I've seen them on EBay and Amazon with variable prices from fairly reasonable to outrageous. I have 3 or four of them, counting the "Tribute" book that was widely released and achieved an almost official status when it was heavily promoted by Walden Books and B. Dalton Books around the time the NBC series was airing.
-
Later on I'll try my best to find out which volume Sam Hall's interview is in. I have them all packed away...
-
I only ever saw the one DS files book by Gross. I never knew there was more than one.
The books were really cheaply produced. I would never pay more than fifteen bucks for one.
G.
-
For me, the most interesting thing about this article was learning that there had once been a plan to make a documentary about DS fans! DS fan culture is vibrant, varied and fun, and doesn't get the attention it deserves, IMO. I've long wished for a serious (e.g., non-condescending) article or book about fandom, but an anniversary-themed video special would have been even better! Although the fans Del Valle described having interviewed don't sound typical of the people that I've met at Festivals, I still think it's a shame this idea didn't come to fruition. I wonder what the chances are of this project being revived for the 50th Anniversary?
ProfStokes
-
Perhaps... the description del Valle offered of plans for it sounded an awful lot like the ill-fated "DS Sciography" project or whatever it was called... find DS fans who really think they're Barnabas or Josette or Angelique... a thinly disguised freaks' gallery at best.
The Sci Fi channel thing was rejected by the network--and given some of the stuff they've aired over the years--you know it must have been bad. I recall reading that there was a screening at a Festival Banquet one year but I did not see it.
G.
-
But there are fans who fit Del Valle's description.
By the same token, there are fans who've been inspired by the show to pursue careers in writing, filmmaking, acting, art, design--some of these fans are extraordinarily talented and brilliant.
There are fans who are sexually/emotionally repressed, as well as happily married couples with rich, wonderful relationships who met through their mutual love of DS.
All of the above, the good and the bad, the happy and the sad, can be found in abundance in DS and other fandoms. All serve to paint an accurate portrait of the fan base.
-
Unfortunately, I don't have the one with Sam Hall's interview. Does anyone know which edition has the interview?
A friend passed along that the Files Magazine interview is in The Dark Shadows Special: Return To Collinwood with Barnabas and Roxanne on the cover.
-
Ed Gross had a DS-related blog for awhile not that long ago. Unfortunately, I do not remember the URL.
I remember the attempt to make a documentary about DS fandom but it fell through, mainly because the producer of the document wanted it to be sensationalist in nature and wanted to dig up whatever he could to make it so. That's not unlike this article we are talking about as it also engages in matter there isn't proof, just gossip that's more like tabloid journalism. That's a big market.
Prof. Stokes - I agree it would be fantastic to do a documentary on DS fandom for the reasons you mentioned. I have been around it since 1984 attending almost all of the DS conventions on the East coast and the smaller conventions. I've seen very quiet, even uninspired individuals latch into fanfiction and other creative outlets and discover latent talents and that's just one example. I've also heard many times from others who are involved in other fandoms how tame DS fandom is in comparison to others. I remember Jonathan Frid saying to me and some others once that the worst. By and large the fans are pretty cool folks.
-
I've seen very creative types in DS fandom as well, some of them do brilliant work, and some have forged professional careers in the arts.
I've also seen fans go on vindictive rampages against each other, holding thirty year grudges over who's the "better fan" or who's this actor's or that actor's "best friend".
In the past month alone, five DS fans have posted on Facebook that they want nothing more to do with fandom because of abusive attacks from other fans--two of them stated that the attacks were so virulent, it was hampering their enjoyment of the show.
Does it serve DS fandom well to pretend that things like this don't happen?
Is this how cool folks behave?
Does it serve fandom well to tell people who express such feelings that they don't deserve to be heard?
DS fans have been told that it's a mortal sin to discuss the sexuality of any gay cast members. Would we tell a straight cast member to pretend that they're not straight?
Any community, any group, that can't criticize itself or do self-reflection, any group that can't tell the truth about itself, is not a healthy group.
-
I love Dark Shadows passionately. I've made three lifelong friends through DS and I love writing about DS in the press.
But DS fandom needs to self-reflect and stop pretending that we're one big happy family when half of the fans feel unwelcome, and when a small group of self-appointed leaders dictate who's cool, who's not, and what everyone may or may not say.
-
We are all flawed. I don't mean fans, I mean everybody. A lot of us whose flaws differ from those of the majority find a sanctuary in fandoms, DS, Trek, others. Our flaws often take the form of socialization problems, so you find easily hurt people thrown together with the pit bulls who go after others to compensate for inner deficits. And there are all sorts of other kinds of fans, too. It's a wide spectrum, and you have to find some safe niche like this site, where there's a sort of buffer against the pit bulls.
I also think that while fans often adapt poorly to mainstream society, another way of looking at that is that non-fans tend to adapt to mainstream society far too well. We require something better than standard consumer culture, we need a life of the imagination. I'll take fandom flaws over other kinds of human flaws.
Anyway, you can't make the pit bulls change. We can hit them on the nose with a great big rolled up newspaper and say, shut the hell up, bad dog, bad dog.... so to speak, though.
I'd like to see a fandom documentary done with the above attitude, showing the whole spectrum in a mature, respectful way. What and who "we"are, as opposed to what and who "they" (non-fans, "mundanes") are, and why, and what it all means, is an issue waiting to be tackled well.
-
Thank you for being that voice of maturity, Magnus.
I will add this: in the second decade of the 21st century, there's no excuse for acting like it's a crime to say that a gay person is gay.
To do so insinuates that there's something wrong with being gay.
Being honest and truthful breaks down the old prejudices.
-
If we're talking about outing the deceased (actors) in the name of society progressing, and tolerance increasing, there's a lot to be said for that, but I don't know about revealing anything the person wouldn't have chosen to himself, when he's not around to choose, not even his third grade spelling scores... It's an old debate. It's complicated. Like most ongoing issues, I can see both sides. Keeping these secrets does contribute to shaming those living now, on some level.
-
When I wrote about Jonathan Frid being gay in Fangoria, many gay fans thanked me because it meant a lot to them to read that their idol was gay--many told me that they already knew, and that he was someone they could look up to in their formative years.
I certainly didn't out him: Huffington Post and The Village Voice, among many other publications which aren't tabloids, scooped me on that one by years.
I don't think Frid would want anyone talking about his relationships, and neither I nor anyone else talked about that.
We need to stop lying about people's lives.
For a show with a sizable known gay fan base, it's appalling that LGBT issues remain a taboo in DS-land, but again, it's a small group of self-appointed emperors telling the rest of us what to do, what to say, etc.
And we really need to address fan-on-abuse. Too many good people have been driven away by such conduct.
The DS franchise is but a "shadow" of its former self because of this.
We need to welcome all, not just the "cool" people.
-
Articles like this always have to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not doubting the reliability of the author, but judging a man's character based on a single isolated encounter is a little unfair.
I thought the dig at Sam Hall's writing was unnecessary, though. I think SH did some excellent work on the series. I know in some circles his writing's accused of being uninspired and workmanlike, but I think he had a real knack for sharp, witty dialogue, and I can generally tell a SH script from the others based on that.
-
With regard to the issues occurring within the fandom community, I can't comment on DS specifically as I'm so isolated from it except for Facebook fan groups and these boards (both of which I've found welcoming and accepting).
All I can really say is the unfortunate reality is that there are always going to be jerks out there, even within the fandom community. Their behaviour is something that will never be eradicated completely -- incidents will occur and feelings will get tread upon. This is something I learnt the hard way when I attended my first fan expo at the age of 10 and a grown man publicly criticised the Starfleet Next-Gen uniform my mother had sewn for me.
What is important, though, is that issues within fandoms be addressed openly and not swept under the rug as is often the case. Insulting and improper behaviour should always have consequences.
-
Thank you for these comments.
I agree with you about Sam Hall's writing--for much of it's run the writing on the show was brilliant, with 1795, Haunting of Collinwood & 1897 as the highest points. But I suspect the author's portrait of Sam the man is accurate.
We really need to address the abusive attempts by a small group of bullies to exclude those they deem "uncool" from fandom--this is disgusting behavior. It's not just a Facebook phenomenon but how fans interact with each other at the fests themselves.
Most of it comes from the "first Wave" of fest attendees who've been attending since the 80s.
Fandom is for everyone.
As stated earlier, I've been subjected to multiple smear campaigns from that crowd for admitting that I have a sex life and for talking about gay cast members openly and honestly.
I've also been subjected to jokes about mental illness. This is particularly reprehensible as I'm a childhood survivor of what's known as "gay conversion therapy" and I live with PTSD--Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
The same fans who insist that Jonathan Frid wasn't gay (when we all know he was) view my PTSD as a joke and as a weapon they can use against me--how low are we going to sink?
Where is the decency and accountability?
I've already written about this topic for South Florida Gay News. Huffington Post may be next. Enough is enough.
-
David... I think it's a society-in-general problem, rather than a fandom problem. You might expect fandom to be better than mainstream society. You're much more involved in fandom than I am, but being more on the outside, I get the same impression from the world at large. Fandom should be better, but perhaps just isn't.
-
Good point.
I'm not as involved with fandom as you might think, though I once was.
I stopped attending festivals regularly around 20 years ago, and have since stopped attending all together because of the toxic, vindictive behavior.
Yet the attacks have continued, all coming from people I don't interact with online or off.
Three fans have just given me signed statements verifying that they'd been "advised" not to associate me. These notes name who the "advice" came from, a prominent fan I've never met, never spoken too, but who has relentlessly for years bad mouthed me and tried to undermine me professionally.
I've had enough of this BS.
Fandom should be an escape from this kind of crap. Instead it's a cesspool of such conduct.
-
I think I've always been looking for some cooler group of people to merge with, who don't have the insanity of the world at large in them. I'm about your age, and I haven't found it.
-
I've found it with individual friends, but I don't think it exists within groups or organizations.
I hope to God that my life is never so empty that I would try to hurt people just to "prove" that I'm a "better" fan of a TV show.
-
I think I've always been looking for some cooler group of people to merge with, who don't have the insanity of the world at large in them. I'm about your age, and I haven't found it.
And you won't looking to large groups, as you indicated. Large groups have issues. Getting back to Sam Hall, he and Grayson had one fan stalker for about a decade! Stalking was harder to prove back then so the creep got away with it. The recent bio about Grayson Hall mentioned this. The issues that come with fame
-
There's a fan who stalked Kathy Cody to the point that Kathy had to publicly ask the fan to stop--that fan deliberately provoked Kathy.
As for the fan who continues to this day to stalk me (same person who bothered Kathy) I will be involving the police.
For God's sake, this is just a TV show.
-
Um, this topic has perhaps gotten way OT. Let's reign things in and get back to the original subject, meaning the article - or let's just end things. [hall2_smiley]
-
Sounds good to me.
-
Just to make one more comment on the DS fans, one fan produced zine called "Fangs for the Memories" is about the DS fandom ovet the years.
-
Yes, that's a zine that Helen Samaras published.