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General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '26 I => Current Talk '03 II => Topic started by: David on November 17, 2003, 08:16:35 AM

Title: Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: David on November 17, 2003, 08:16:35 AM
The sloppiness of the writing at this point--Edith's death, Barnabas' sudden cure, Roxanne & Angeligue's 1840 demise, the note in Trask's skeleton--all inconsistencies that cannot be explained away by saying "we traveled thru time & changed things!" And until 1840, Sam & Gordon were very careful to respect events in the show's history as they affected different stories.

Bringing Stokes to 1840 to do--nothing.

[spoiler]The anti-climactic death of Gerard.[/spoiler]

 No attempt at explaining how the above mentioned inconsistencies affected 1897 or the modern dress stories. No attempt at wrapping up loose ends or even saying goodbye to beloved characters.

I understand that they all felt a need to move on by 1971. So end the story properly & move on.

But the show's last 3 months give me the sinking feeling that no one involved gave a shit anymore, and that neither Frid, Curtis, Sam or Gordon had enough respect for the audience to wrap things up before calling it quits.

Ending the show in 1841PT has got to be the most unsatisfying ending of a show in TV history.
And considering the magnificent brilliance of 1795 & 1897, this was
indeed a shame.

Am I being to harsh?

Any thoughts, anyone?

     
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 17, 2003, 03:01:21 PM
And until 1840, Sam & Gordon were very careful to respect events in the show's history as they affected different stories.

Uh, what show were you watching?  :D

I understand that your point is that 1840 seems to have thrown more established plot out the window than other storylines had and those changes affected several previous storylines in a big way. I honestly do get that.  :)  But to say that the writers were very careful to respect events in the show's history isn't quite the case. And one of my favorite examples is how Jamison/Petofi and Aristede managed to find the Collins Family History book in 1897, despite the fact that Eve/Danielle Roget travelled back to 1796, brought it forward to 1968, and gave it to Vicki as a wedding gift. Not only did Eve/Danielle remove the book at a point in history prior to 1897 - but it had also been removed at a point in DS' own storyline timeline prior to the 1897 storyline taking place, so we can't even argue that Eve/Danielle may not have travelled back to 1796 prior to what we saw in 1897.

The writers managed to screw up all sorts of little things like that because they simply didn't remember what had come before. I marvel at the fact that the writers themselves have even admitted that sometimes they'd go to ask the kids outside the studio what had happened in a particular instance because they couldn't remember the events themselves!  ::)
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: David on November 17, 2003, 04:02:03 PM
OK, good point.

But I also recall that when Barnabas came back from 1796 in 1968, he could not return until he was chained in his coffin as he had been originally. Little sub-plots like that always gave the stories a kind of credibility that was gone from 1840.

The writers ended 1795 & 1897 with no loose ends at all, but 1840 still feels like everyone stopped caring.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Julia99 on November 17, 2003, 08:12:41 PM
And Barnabas is soon to stairway his way back . .now, uh wait. .isn't his body already in 1971 . .how are 2 gonna be merged?  And if that body goes to 1971, how is Willie gonna find it in 1966?  Ohh the mind. . .they all knew they were soon to be outta there and we just going thru the motions. . . you are right that ending in 1841 was seriously WRONG. . they should've at least did a little detour back to 1971. .  .
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Raineypark on November 17, 2003, 08:29:42 PM
Do we actually know that DC and Company had any input into when the show ended?  If the Network informed them that they were pulling the plug in a matter of weeks, there would hardly have been time to re-write what they had already taped, and then tape it again.  And given the fact that they were all loosing their jobs, who would have had the heart to do all that work, even if the time had been allowed?

Perhaps the DS Scholars among us can enlighten us as to the exact manner in which the plug was pulled?
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: David on November 17, 2003, 08:39:38 PM
No one knows why the plug was pulled so suddenly, but everyone agrees that there was something "mysterious" going on that we've never been told about.

There's just no reason why the show's last week could not have been used to tie up loose ends instead of listening to Bramwell/Catherine's/Morgan's boring, plotless, unrelated to the rest of the show crap about how tormented they were.

Barnabas/Quentin/Angelique/Victoria etc.
were all tormented too, but they had a history that made us care.

Did anyone seriously give a shit about Bramwell & Catherine, or were they more interested in getting answers to the questions raised by me & Julia99? 
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Raineypark on November 17, 2003, 08:48:58 PM
There's just no reason why the show's last week could not have been used to tie up loose ends instead of listening to Bramwell/Catherine's/Morgan's boring, plotless, unrelated to the rest of the show crap about how tormented they were.

But that's exactly my point...if we don't know how much notice they were given, and how much time they had left before the last episode was shown, we don't KNOW that there was "no reason".  The "reason" could simply have been a lack of time and budget to re-write and re-shoot enough episodes to tie everything up the way we might have liked.

Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: David on November 17, 2003, 08:54:20 PM
Terry Crawford told me at a fest in the 90s that the day she did her last show, in Jan '71, they already knew they were history, but she never got the details as to what caused the cancellation.

Three months was enough time, but they just didn't care.

Sad but true!
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Nancy on November 17, 2003, 09:18:41 PM
In spite of KLS' DS books and their cheerleading quality, the DS set was a difficult one to be on especially for production people.

I never thought it was a mystery as to why the show was cancelled even though the ratings were decent.  Michael Miozza made some points on previous DS boards that the blood and violence of HODS woke some parents (and maybe some advertisers up) to DS and the response was not a good one.  (Sorry if I misrepresented what I think I remember your saying, Michael).  Besides that, times were very different in 1970 and 1971 than they were in 1966-1967.  The network was changing its style of programming and fantasy like DS was not a part of that change.  You also had Dan Curtis who by many accounts was tired of doing DS and wanted to do other things.  Everything on the set was whipped into a frenzy and what had been sloppy before only became more so.  People such as Peter Miner and writer Ron Sproat have spoken before about the chaos that reigned on the set with everything having to be faster faster faster and more more more which was the way Curtis operated back then.  Mr. Miner said working on DS was pretty much a terrible experience except that the actors were usually very pleasant to deal with.  I don't know if what ultimately transpired with how the series ended had anything to do with cast and crew not caring as much as people being burned out.

Nancy

But that's exactly my point...if we don't know how much notice they were given, and how much time they had left before the last episode was shown, we don't KNOW that there was "no reason".  The "reason" could simply have been a lack of time and budget to re-write and re-shoot enough episodes to tie everything up the way we might have liked.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 17, 2003, 09:19:03 PM
Three months was enough time, but they just didn't care.

Sad but true!

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that. You have to remember that Jonathan Frid had walked off the set and renegotiated his contract to include a stipulation that he be given a character other than Barnabas to play. The whole 1841PT storyline came about as a way to fulfill that contractual obligation. They couldn't just up and drop everything that they had planned for 1841PT and suddenly come up with all new material. Not to mention that they may not have wanted to. Frid wanted a new character. Lara Parker wanted to play a weepy heroine. Both were getting what they wanted. And everyone associated with the show may have been quite content to see 1841PT play out as planned.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Philippe Cordier on November 17, 2003, 09:38:18 PM
I disagree with pretty much everything that was said in the first post to this thread.  If I have time later, I'll try to detail my points, but I've basically made them all in the past on this forum or an earlier incarnation.  In my view, 1840 is a much more compact, well-plotted, and resolved storyline that 1897, second perhaps to 1795 in that respect.  Thematically the storyline comes full circle with Barnabas and Angelique ... and the 1841 storyline is an interesting coda (my own term for it) for the series.  It suggests new directions for the show, but also brings back some of the original themes, such as the orphan's search for her family, etc.  I actually found it quite a satisfying way to end the series, though obviously many things were left open, as they were with most of the individual storylines.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: dom on November 17, 2003, 10:56:18 PM
Ending the show in 1841PT has got to be the most unsatisfying ending of a show in TV history.

You know, I had stoped watching DS by the time 1841PT was in full swing. I had read in TV guide that the last episode would be airing and I made it a point to watch that last show. It was awful tuning in to bid the cast farewell and not having a clue as to whom anyone was or what the hell was going on. So for me, yes, I agree, it was thee most unsatisfying finale of a TV show in the history of television. And I felt the same way after watching the complete series on video in the 90s.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Gothick on November 17, 2003, 11:02:41 PM
IIRC, there were a couple of unresolved storylines at the end of 1897. The ultimate fates of Magda, Count Petofi, Edward, and Charity were never resolved.  It may have been that there were thoughts about doing a follow-up story further down the road with some of these characters.

I remember a charming interview Grayson did late in 1970 in which she was talking about Magda, her favorite character, and said something along the lines of "I insisted my gypsy girl stay alive."  It was implied that she might be given the chance to play her again.  Barrett got to reprise the "Pansity" persona with Letitia, and I've often wondered whether Grayson might have played a Magda-type character in 1840 had Julia not become so popular at that point.

I find the pacing of the final weeks of the 1840 story to be very dodgy.  Both Barnabas and Julia are absent for some weeks running (I know in the case of Grayson she had an unexpected furlough when her father-in-law died).  The spellcasting sequences with Gerard and Daphne are vacuous and repetitive, and so is a lot of the material involving other characters who are around.

I think one of the biggest surprises is how a certain storyline involving Samantha plays out--despite a string of botched scenes leading up to it, the denouement is really quite satisfying.

G.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 17, 2003, 11:48:00 PM
You know, I had stoped watching DS by the time 1841PT was in full swing.

[speechless]
[jawdrp]
[shockeyes]
[a345]

****************************************

Umm - it seems as if the position of Global Moderator might be available soon. Would anyone care to apply?

Yes, we do require you to sign a contract in blood.  [deal2]  But there are great fringe benefits. ... Well, unless we discover that you've been keeping a huge secret - in which case your contract is immediately null and void and your body will probably never be discovered. (Oops, did I publicly type that last part? Please pretend you never saw it...  [vryevl])
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: dom on November 17, 2003, 11:54:23 PM
[bawling2]
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: wes on November 18, 2003, 12:30:04 AM
 >:( This thread is missing one point of view.  From the perspective of "Curtis & Co," they were PROMOTED, not CANCELLED!  DCP got deals with ABC and MGM which moved him into a bigger league... Reportedly, there was some talk about bringing the Dark Shadows property to nights, but it just wasn't going to happen in 1971 because everyone was GONNA BE A MOVIE STAR!

 :o DCP did keep getting bigger, but the Dark Shadows movies stopped... the main problem with the movies was the loss of the Barnabas character.  Not that they wouldn't have liked the TV series to continue -- but, without Dan, and without many favorite performers in familiar roles.  It just wasn't that profitable, either, anymore, for DCP, ABC, or MGM.

 ;D (Just speculating, of course!)
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Raineypark on November 18, 2003, 01:07:24 AM
I imagine this would be a hugely inappropriate time to admit I stopped watching right around the time that annoying ghost Quentin showed up.....[vryevl]

Don't worry dom...you're always welcome at Lombardi's!
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: dom on November 18, 2003, 01:18:48 AM
 :D :-* ;)
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Gerard on November 18, 2003, 02:50:35 AM
And Barnabas is soon to stairway his way back . .now, uh wait. .isn't his body already in 1971 . .how are 2 gonna be merged? 

I've always nagged about that one.  Barnabas I-Chinged himself back to 1840/41,, so just his consciousness occupied his already-existing body, while Julia and Eliot went up the down staircase.  But then they all took the staircase back, even though Barnabas' body did not get sucked back like it had from 1969 to 1897.  When they returned, his body should still be there.  And, of course, the other thing I've nagged about is that they changed the lineage of the family.  There should've been another totally unknown set of Collinses living on the estate (which, I think, would've made for a great story).

But something else I've always nagged to myself about is exactly what was that Java Queen business all about?  That ship was such a big thing in the 1970 prelude, including the crew, having to do with what happened in 1840/41, yet when we get to that time, absolutely no mention is made of the whole thing.  And what about that merry-go-round?  It tinkle-linkled all over Collinwood in the 1970 haunting, and even in 1995, but obviously in 1840 it was already stuffed in a box somewhere, ready to be taken down to the local Good Will.

Gerard
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Nancy on November 18, 2003, 03:19:41 AM
I stopped watching sometime after 1897 but I might have stopped before then, I don't remember.  I made it a point to watch the very last episode when I found out the show had been cancelled but had no clue as to what was going on, of course. ::)

Nancy

You know, I had stoped watching DS by the time 1841PT was in full swing. I had read in TV guide that the last episode would be airing and I made it a point to watch that last show. It was awful tuning in to bid the cast farewell and not having a clue as to whom anyone was or what the hell was going on. So for me, yes, I agree, it was thee most unsatisfying finale of a TV show in the history of television. And I felt the same way after watching the complete series on video in the 90s.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Brian on November 18, 2003, 04:00:27 AM
I remember the final days of DS in 1971--and yes! I did care about Catherine and Bramwell.  I also recall that on April 1st (the show's final episode was on April 2) I told my mother (I was 12 years old, thank you very much!) that DS would not end and it was all an April Fools joke!

Okay--I was wrong.  ;)

Now, about the end of 1840, or Barnabas' and Julia's final scene:

[spoiler]In hindsight, upon watching show # 1198 several times over the last few years, after returning to 1971, Julia and Barnabas have the following exchange:

JULIA: "We changed all of their lives by being in 1840."

BARNABAS: "As well as ours.  Think, Julia, think back to 1840.  Those stairways are likely no more.  Desmond has probably destroyed them by now."

JULIA:  "We'll never forget any of them, Barnabas."

BARNABAS "Never."

And they leave the drawing room.[/spoiler]

As I said above, in hindsite, this exchange solidifies (for me) that Julia and Barnabas have put all their past conflicts behind and will move toward their friendship--and more.  And it seems to me to put a "button" on the modern story lines, even without some of the resolutions we would have liked to have seen.  From what I recall about conversations with Keith Prentice nearly 20 years ago, the show had been given notice of cancellation well enough in advance of the end of 1840, and the 1841PT storyline was a way to give Frid what he wanted (playing a different character), and a way to end the show without leaving the viewers hanging about the 1971 story and characters and resolution to their stories.  (Personally, I am satisfied with that final scene in 1971 with Barnabas, Julia, and Eliot and Liz.  I don't recall what I thought about it more tha 30 years ago. . .)

That's my 2 cents worth....
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Josette on November 18, 2003, 04:44:03 AM
I think the show would have been better if there had been no additional PT and they had gone back to the present and done something to resolve the characters there.  I have no idea if they had already introduced PT before they knew they were coming to an end.  If they had, then it DID seem necessary to resolve what they had started.

So, given that we had already been introduced to the PT story, I always found it rather fitting that they closed up 1840, had the brief finale in the present to show what had happened, then went back to finish the already begun story in PT.


And, they had that little "tagline" at the end which was rather nice.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Connie on November 18, 2003, 07:07:51 AM
I imagine this would be a hugely inappropriate time to admit I stopped watching right around the time that annoying ghost Quentin showed up.....[vryevl]

Yes!  TOTALLY inappropriate!  [gring]  [wave]


Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: wes on November 18, 2003, 08:01:32 AM
 ~~~~ [sun] Don't cry, Flo! [sun] ~~~~
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Cassandra on November 18, 2003, 08:29:24 AM
And one of my favorite examples is how Jamison/Petofi and Aristede managed to find the Collins Family History book in 1897, despite the fact that Eve/Danielle Roget travelled back to 1796, brought it forward to 1968, and gave it to Vicki as a wedding gift. Not only did Eve/Danielle remove the book at a point in history prior to 1897 - but it had also been removed at a point in DS' own storyline timeline prior to the 1897 storyline taking place, so we can't even argue that Eve/Danielle may not have travelled back to 1796 prior to what we saw in 1897.

Another thing I have a problem with is Ben's diary.
 How did it wind up in Collinwood when it supposidly had been buried with Ben after he died??  As I recall Laura had Dirk Wilkins dig up Ben's grave to get ahold of that same diary in order to find out the dirt on Barnabas during the 1897 storyline!!

Cassandra
   
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Cassandra Blair on November 18, 2003, 05:09:59 PM
I KNEW the whole thing with Ben's diary in 1840 bugged me for some reason - thanks for pointing this out Cassandra!

My feelings about 1840 are ambivalent.  Really like the early part of the story, and agree with Vlad that it was nicely plotted.  But as of about the time of Angelique's complete change of character, the whole thing goes south, IMHO.  It appears that this is the point at which everyone stopped caring about continuity, the overall story arc etc.  I wonder if that's when the notice came down that the show would be cancelled in a few months' time.  Does anyone know?
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Julian on November 19, 2003, 04:54:18 PM
There is a great deal I like about 1840 but the witchcraft trial is absolutely ludicrous.  You have a dynamic talent like David Selby and you put him in a plot where he is confined to a jail cell and a court room where he can only shout No!  That's not true!  etc., etc.  Not a very good use of your cast.  And I'm sure someone has probably mentioned it before, but where did Judah get a psychedelic compositon/theme book to use as his journal in the 1680's?
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 19, 2003, 07:02:22 PM
And I'm sure someone has probably mentioned it before, but where did Judah get a psychedelic compositon/theme book to use as his journal in the 1680's?

He had it custom made?  ;)
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Raineypark on November 19, 2003, 07:12:11 PM
He had it custom made?

At "Judah's Head Shop"  :D
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Midnite on November 19, 2003, 08:47:38 PM
At "Judah's Head Shop"  :D

[lghy]
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Cassandra Blair on November 19, 2003, 10:08:33 PM
Stop!  You're killing me!  I almost laughed my head off!!! :D
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Raineypark on November 19, 2003, 10:13:11 PM
[hdscrt] I could swear I've used that line before...you all must be as forgetful as I am!
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 19, 2003, 11:38:52 PM
I could swear I've used that line before

A search of the forum's posts reveals that you have not.

It must have only been in your own, uh, head.  [wink2]
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Midnite on November 19, 2003, 11:47:10 PM
It must have only been in your own, uh, head.  [wink2]

Thank goodness I was only drinking water when I read this!
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Philippe Cordier on November 20, 2003, 06:06:59 AM
CassB wrote:

Quote
Stop!  You're killing me!  I almost laughed my head off!!! 

Time to get serious again, guys.   ;D


There is a great deal I like about 1840 but the witchcraft trial is absolutely ludicrous.  You have a dynamic talent like David Selby and you put him in a plot where he is confined to a jail cell and a court room where he can only shout No!  That's not true!  etc., etc.  Not a very good use of your cast.  And I'm sure someone has probably mentioned it before, but where did Judah get a psychedelic compositon/theme book to use as his journal in the 1680's?

I'm probably beginning to sound like a cheerleader for 1840, but I actually like the 1840 trial.  The dialogue is quick and sharp, and there is a realistic element to the legal aspect.  A former poster who is a lawyer wrote at length during the last run about how well done and accurate the courtroom exchanges and procedures were.  That was my feeling as well, and I find the scenes really sizzle.  Quentin's role in the courtroom is what the role a defendant should be.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Josette on November 20, 2003, 07:10:15 AM
The one thing about this trial - at least up to this point when Desmond is charged - is that both Dawson and Desmond are legitimate lawyers opposing each other.

As to Vlad's comment about Quentin's role being what a defendant's role should be - I think that was Julian's point - they created a plot where there wasn't much of anything for him to do.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Philippe Cordier on November 21, 2003, 05:13:54 AM
He seems to be getting a lot of airtime in the jail cell.  Moreso, I think, than John Karlen's excellent courtroom scenes.  I'd be happy with more of Mr. Karlen.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Cassandra Blair on November 21, 2003, 04:36:07 PM
Agree that the courtroom scenes are often gripping, but I do wonder on what planet any judge would allow the defendant's attorney to be called to the stand as a witness for the prosecution?  Highly improbable, and likely grounds for a big fat mistrial.

Not that I don't like 1840, I do - just think it gets messy from here on out.  But the witchcraft trial is ludicrous, not just for the reason above.  Also in the sense that it takes place in the middle of the nineteenth century.  That just strains credulity.  Even the trial of Victoria Winters for sorcery in 1795 is several decades later than any American witchcraft trials of which I'm aware.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Philippe Cordier on November 22, 2003, 01:06:45 AM
Agree that the courtroom scenes are often gripping, but I do wonder on what planet any judge would allow the defendant's attorney to be called to the stand as a witness for the prosecution?  Highly improbable, and likely grounds for a big fat mistrial.

I wish we had Ben's posts from the VN board.  As a lawyer, he gave a very thorough assessment.  I'm sure you're right about the part you mention (which I haven't viewed yet).

Quote
Not that I don't like 1840, I do - just think it gets messy from here on out.  But the witchcraft trial is ludicrous, not just for the reason above.  Also in the sense that it takes place in the middle of the nineteenth century.  That just strains credulity.  Even the trial of Victoria Winters for sorcery in 1795 is several decades later than any American witchcraft trials of which I'm aware.

You're right, of course.  I don't think there were many -- or possibly any -- witch trials in America after Salem in 1692.  Though DS did deal with that very point not long ago in 1840 -- various characters expressing incredulity that anyone could believe in witches in the 19th century; the legal technicalities wherein the original colonial law could still be invoked, etc.  I thought they did a decent job in making the 1840 witch trial theoretically possible if not wholly believable -- but the "believable" part is part and parcel of DS's premises as a whole:  witches, vampires, werewolves ...

I don't recall 1795 making any similar attempt to explain Victoria's trial for witchcraft 100 years after witch trials had ended.  I know there were a few witch trials in Europe -- Germany, I think -- some years later than Salem.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Joeytrom on November 22, 2003, 04:31:15 PM
I think the last witch trials anywhere were around 1722.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Midnite on November 23, 2003, 05:14:05 AM
Agree that the courtroom scenes are often gripping, but I do wonder on what planet any judge would allow the defendant's attorney to be called to the stand as a witness for the prosecution?  Highly improbable, and likely grounds for a big fat mistrial.

What bothers me is that this particular court seems to pick and choose which civil rights they'll respect.  For example, they honor Quentin's Sixth Amendment right to be represented by counsel, but then they defy the Fifth Amendment by forcing Desmond to provide testimony that ultimately incriminates himself.  So does this court operate according to the US Constitution or not?  It's just a big jumbled mess to me.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Philippe Cordier on November 24, 2003, 01:11:43 AM
What bothers me is that this particular court seems to pick and choose which civil rights they'll respect.  For example, they honor Quentin's Sixth Amendment right to be represented by counsel, but then they defy the Fifth Amendment by forcing Desmond to provide testimony that ultimately incriminates himself.  So does this court operate according to the US Constitution or not?  It's just a big jumbled mess to me.

Although Desmond was not on trial, so he couldn't really be said to be incriminating himself.  It was more like an impromptu hearing -- interrupting Quentin's trial -- to supposedly see if there was a conflict of interest with Desmond representing Quentin.  Maybe the judges rode slipshod over procedure by then indicting Desmond for witchcraft ... but how many TV trials or even movies are all that accurate -- or even realistic -- when it comes to trial scenes?   ::)

 
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 24, 2003, 01:40:20 AM
but how many TV trials or even movies are all that accurate -- or even realistic -- when it comes to trial scenes?   ::)

Uh, probably none - at least not 100%. For the most part, real trials are never as dramatic as their entertainment counterparts. But then, that's why they call it entertainment.  [b003]
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Midnite on November 24, 2003, 01:52:23 AM
Although Desmond was not on trial, so he couldn't really be said to be incriminating himself.

I think a simple google search on "self-incrimination" would provide you with evidence to the contrary.

Quote
It was more like an impromptu hearing -- interrupting Quentin's trial -- to supposedly see if there was a conflict of interest with Desmond representing Quentin.

No, he was called as a witness for the State to provide evidence that Quentin was possessed.  As a result of his testimony he was arrested and charged with witchcraft.

Quote
but how many TV trials or even movies are all that accurate -- or even realistic -- when it comes to trial scenes?   ::)

My point was that no effort was made here to be consistent.  Realism and accuracy went out the window when this became a witchcraft trial.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Raineypark on November 24, 2003, 01:57:03 AM
The entire premise of this trial is ludicrous.  But that's an odd thing to complain about when you've already watched several years of stories involving witches, vampires, werewolves, Frankenstein-like creatures, Leviathans, parallel time, gypsy curses, ghosts, severed heads, severed hands,...have I left anything out?  OH yeah, the most unbelievable thing of all.....a Mistress of the Mansion who hasn't gone out shopping for 20 years!!!  ::)
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 24, 2003, 02:19:12 AM
I think a simple google search on "self-incrimination" would provide you with evidence to the contrary.

...

Realism and accuracy went out the window when this became a witchcraft trial.

Sadly, we learned during Leviathans with Philip that the DS writers apparently couldn't have cared less when it came to dealing with the realities of the law. Dramatic license (i.e. a witchcraft trial in the 19th century) is one thing when it's used to make the circumstances surrounding a case more exciting for the audience. And the dramatic effects of any fictional court case are bound to be heightened. (Although, I found it interesting that Amy Brennerman remarked on Regis and Kelly last week that on Judging Amy they try to stay away from her character constantly pounding her gavel because real judges rarely seem to do that (Brennerman's mom is the judge the series is loosely based on), while fictitious judges seem to use their gavels at every conceivably opportune moment - particularly on the soaps - as Kelly Ripa was only too happy to point out from her days on All My Children.) But I totally agree that completely throwing the reality of the law out the window along with the way law enforcement really operates is quite another thing.  ::)
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: onyx_treasure on November 24, 2003, 02:56:50 PM
, the most unbelievable thing of all.....a Mistress of the Mansion who hasn't gone out shopping for 20 years!!!  ::)

   When you are as rich as Elizabeth your dressmaker comes to you.  Unfortunately, the dressmaker was Oscar de la Orhbachs. ::)
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 24, 2003, 03:03:04 PM
Unfortunately, the dressmaker was Oscar de la Orhbachs.

:D
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Nancy on November 24, 2003, 04:04:50 PM
No attempt at explaining how the above mentioned inconsistencies affected 1897 or the modern dress stories. No attempt at wrapping up loose ends or even saying goodbye to beloved characters.

I understand that they all felt a need to move on by 1971. So end the story properly & move on.

But the show's last 3 months give me the sinking feeling that no one involved gave a shit anymore, and that neither Frid, Curtis, Sam or Gordon had enough respect for the audience to wrap things up before calling it quits.

I know that I lost interest in the show well before the last three months, so I didn't feel "disrespected" in any way since I was the one who had stopped watching.;)  However, I don't think Frid was writing scripts so he didn't decide anything about loose ends.  The writers on the series, IIRC, had already a reputation for just writing sloppy endings and not tying up loose ends so the way they supposedly wrote the last three months would not be surprising.

Quote
Ending the show in 1841PT has got to be the most unsatisfying ending of a show in TV history.

Oh I would have to disagree.  I think one of the most unsatisfying ends to a show was St. Elsewhere's last episode.  The whole thing was a dream????

Quote
Am I being to harsh?

I think so. :)  But only because in perspective the writers and producer (who tells the writers what to do) just hurried up and finished off the series not doing so with the thought any of it would ever be seen again, though that is no excuse for sloppiness.  Also, I don't think anyone thought the ending of the show -- good or bad - would have a devastating personal impact on viewers just being a television show and all.

Nancy
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Philippe Cordier on November 24, 2003, 09:14:00 PM
I think a simple google search on "self-incrimination" would provide you with evidence to the contrary.

...

No, he was called as a witness for the State to provide evidence that Quentin was possessed.  As a result of his testimony he was arrested and charged with witchcraft.

I'd probably have to watch the scenes in question again -- I really didn't watch them that closely, and so my impressions may be based on inaccurate recall.  I was relying more on my general impressions, and also on what I seem to remember from Ben's posts during the last run.  I may be mischaracterizing what he wrote, but I thought Ben was fairly complementary overall to these trial scenes, writing from a professional legal perspective.  I myself have paralegal certification, but you'd obviously not want to rely on me for legal advice  ;D  (Paralegals of course are not supposed to provide "legal advice"  :) )  Obviously this is a fictional trial, but it has an overlay of legal terminology that, to the uninitiated, is at least dramatically effective, in my humble opinion. And most high-profile trials in real life are also riddled with procedural errors (one of the main reasons for appellate courts) if not judicial misconduct, which obviously also occurs.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 24, 2003, 09:24:53 PM
I thought Ben was fairly complementary overall to these trial scenes, writing from a professional legal perspective.

Your memory is correct - Ben was impressed with the way these court scenes were handled.

(It's really too bad that we were never able to preserve so many of those posts from the forum's VN days.  :()
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Luciaphile on November 24, 2003, 11:31:32 PM
OH yeah, the most unbelievable thing of all.....a Mistress of the Mansion who hasn't gone out shopping for 20 years!!![/font]  ::)

No, no. That I could buy. What killed me was that supposedly pre-Mrs. Johnson, the Collinses all did their own housework. Picture it now: Mrs. Stoddard in her black velvet and pearls (which I think poor Joan Bennett had to wear for like two weeks) behind a Hoover . . .
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on November 24, 2003, 11:37:31 PM
What killed me was that supposedly pre-Mrs. Johnson, the Collinses all did their own housework.

Maybe Liz deliberately gave the wrong impression and they actually had David do all the housecleaning. That might not only explain all the cobwebs that were still around the place - but why David always felt so angry towards everyone else.  ;)
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: danfling on December 01, 2003, 08:37:27 PM
The show did not know at the conclusion of the 1840 storyline that the ending was to be in April.

So, ratings had fallen after the Levithan storyline, but, when the 1940 Parallel Time story was airing, the ratings were actually rising.

It is reported that Diana Millay had been asked to and had agreed to return to the show, but the cancellation came that there was no time for her to return.

Also, I understand that Alexandra Moltke had been asked to return to the show also.    And Keith Prentiss had a contract, but I am not sure for what length of time.

(I have suspected that the role of Joanna Mills was written with the possibility of the return of Ms. Moltke and that she would be playing the role.)

The puzzlement to me in 1971 and still today was why there were so many performers hired during the 1840 storyline but they were slowly being dropped - not used in the 1840 storyline but still Keith Prentiss was hired and was offered a contract with the show.

During the final months of the show, added to the cast were Donna Wandrey, Kathy Cody, Kate Jackson, James Storm, Virginia Vestoff, Gene Lindsey, Tom Happer, Keith Prentiss, and Lee Beery.

In addition, Clarice Blackburn, Jerry Lacy, Terry Crawford, Elizabeth Eis, and Humbert Allen Astredo (who had not been on the show for a while) were brought back.

I know that Denise Nickerson left, so the hiring of Kathy Cody made since.    The departure of Katheryn Leigh Scott necessitated the hiring of Virginia Vestoff.   (I understand that the character of Samantha was written for Katheryn Leigh Scott.)    Ms. Scott's departure also necessatated the hiring of Donna Wandrey and the changing of Lara Parker into a sympathetic figure.    (She was the most popular Dark Shadows actress during the show's last year, according to the Daytime Television magazine's poll.)

When the show moved over to 1850 Parallel Time, Virginia Vestoff and Jerry Lacy were quickly killed off.    Not used at all were Tom Happer, James Storm, Gene Lindsey, David Henesy (who had left the show, but we did not know that at the time), Michael Stroka, Donna Wandrey (who may have been dismissed from the show - I am not sure), and Lee Beery.

I never understood why there were so many characters in 1840 but not in the Parallel Time.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on December 01, 2003, 09:49:42 PM
Not used at all were Tom Happer, James Storm, Gene Lindsey, David Henesy (who had left the show, but we did not know that at the time), Michael Stroka, Donna Wandrey (who may have been dismissed from the show - I am not sure), and Lee Beery.

Actually, James Storm appears in two 1841PT episodes (#1207/1208 & #1209) as psychic Gerard Stiles, who helps out Kendrick (John Karlen).  :)

As for Gene Lindsey, the part of Randall Drew was created with Don Briscoe in mind, but when Briscoe was unavailable, Lindsey was hired. Perhaps the DS PTB simply weren't interested in him doing more than filling Briscoe's 1840 shoes (though, as competent in the role as he was, I seriously doubt that Briscoe's legion of lust crazed fanatics (and you all know who you are!!) ever thought that Lindsey was up to THAT particular challenge  [lghy]).
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Josette on December 02, 2003, 03:59:55 AM
If you're right about them not knowing it would be ending when they were finishing 1840, then that answers my comments in another thread.  I always felt it made sense to finish up the PT story once they had started it.  Even at this point we have lots of questions and it has barely started.  To just drop that and go back to a present story would have been a shame.  But, I always questioned their starting the story in the first place.  It seemed so unnecessary during 1840.  But, if they didn't know it would be ending so soon, then any story they wanted to pursue seems just fine.

Also,

[spoiler]I'm assuming in the present that Barnabas really couldn't be anyone except Barnabas.  Since he wanted to play another character, this PT story was probably the only way to do that.[/spoiler]
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: scout75 on December 03, 2003, 10:51:04 PM
For me, the most disappointing part of 1840 is Gerard Stiles. We come back from PT into 1995 and 1970 to see the devastation his ghost has brought down upon Collinwood. There's the mystery of Rose Cottage, the merry-go-round, Daphne's ghost, etc.

So 1840 gets underway and we find that Stiles was actually possessed by Judan Zachary, whom, I believe, is the son of the Devil. Well, besides gaining a minion in Charles Dawson and Edith Collins, what else does he do? Take Quentin's trial: shouldn't the son of the Devil be able to have more of an effect on the outcome?

What exactly are the fringe benefits of being the Devil's spawn?

 ??? >:D
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Dr. Eric Lang on December 04, 2003, 01:03:23 AM
Quote
You're right, of course.  I don't think there were many -- or possibly any -- witch trials in America after Salem in 1692. 

I believe I've read elsewhere that the last known witchcraft trial to be held in America was in 1785. So the 1795 trial was not quite the stretch that the 1840 trial was. Belief in witches died out with the beginning of the industrial revolution.

My own take on 1840 was that it ended rather abruptly, and seemed rushed. This is perhaps due more to Frid's demand to play a different character than anything else. His contract was up and he would not continue on the show unless he was given a new character to play, thus 1840 had to be quickly ended to accomodate him.

I've always felt 1841 PT was a big mistake and that Frid could have played a different character in the present day. As it's been pointed out, the trip to 1840 should have altered the present day drastically. Barnabas could have remained behind in 1840 to live out his natural life with Angelique while Julia alone returned to 1971, upon which she would find an entirely different Collins clan living at Collinwood. Frid could have played a descendant of Barnabas.

I've long had a sneaking suspicion that 1841PT was decided upon because they knew the show was ending and didn't want to bother with the expense of changing the sets back to 1971 status.
Title: Re:Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on December 04, 2003, 01:54:32 AM
As it's been pointed out, the trip to 1840 should have altered the present day drastically.

The operative word there being "should".  ;)  But as we've also made note of, changing events in the past on DS only seemed to change the consequences of events in the present, not necessarily the actual events themselves. Even though it should have, changing history in 1897 didn't wipe out David and Amy's memories of Quentin - the consequence was that David didn't die. Everything else seemed to have taken place in spite of history having been changed. When it came to things like Causality, DS walked a slippery and very unique slope.

Quote
Barnabas could have remained behind in 1840 to live out his natural life with Angelique while Julia alone returned to 1971, upon which she would find an entirely different Collins clan living at Collinwood. Frid could have played a descendant of Barnabas.

But on the other hand, that's an inventive premise that might have been very interesting to watch. The trouble with it, though, is that, short of Frid having left the show entirely, it's extremely unlikely that the audience would have tolerated Barnabas disappearing from the scene altogether. They would have been clamoring for his return, just as they did after it appeared that he had been staked in 1897. And we should also note that Frid never said he didn't want to play Barnabas anymore, only that he was getting tired of playing him as a vampire.
Title: Re: Why Does The End of 1840 Make Me Feel That The Cast/Writers Stopped Caring??
Post by: IluvBarnabas on October 14, 2006, 01:39:55 AM
I loved the 1840 storyline but it did have its share of inconscinities.

[spoiler]The deaths of Gabriel and Edith....Edith is supposed to live on to 1897, she did after all raise the 4 grandchildren Judith, Edward, Quentin and Carl....I suppose you could argue that since history was changed either their children didn't die after all and raised the four or maybe Tad stayed on at Collinwood and raised them.

With Lamar dead, wouldn't that mean the Trasks of 1897, Gregory and Charity, ceased to exist? Unless the Trask of 1795 had another son we didn't know about.

Joshua was supposed to have given Ben his freedom at Barnabas' request at the end of 1795, yet Ben is still working at Collinwood in 1840. (Though I think this can be explained of the fact that when Barnabas went to 1796 to save Vicki, he had Ben send Joshua to Bangor to look for him. When Barnabas succeeded in saving Vicki, he had Ben chain him back in the coffin before Joshua returned. Thus he didn't have the opportunity to ask his father about freeing Ben again. Too bad because I think Ben deserved to be free after all he's done for
the Collinses).

And how was Barnabas able to turn Roxanne into a vampire when he was still chained up in the unchanged history of 1840? Surely he would have remembered being let out that period (even for a short while). Who made Roxanne a vampire before?[/spoiler]

Just some food for thought.