DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '03 II => Topic started by: Patti Feinberg on November 14, 2003, 05:27:06 PM
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So Gerard 'snips' at Carrie (go G!!) and she says, "Oh, you're never like this".
Gerard seems to 'compose' himself; is he Judah? Or is he Gerard? Or a little of both?
Also, him being 'possessed by Judah'...is this why he haunts 1970 Collinwood? Or is there something 'bout Gerard personally that does it?
Thanks,
Patti
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I too have wondered just who was haunting Collinwood c1970. Judah/Gerard or just Gerard? One has to presume that if Barnabas and Julia didn't travel to 1840, Judah would have prevailed in his plan to destroy Quentin and take over the house. But if you think about it, you realize that can't be entirely true, and that Judah must have been defeated by someone at some point in 1840.
After all, if Judah had won, wouldn't he have destroyed the entire family, pertaining to his vow? Why would he stop at posessing Gerard and killing the children? And what had happened to the infamous head?
My guess is that before Barnabas and Julia's little journey, Judah wasn't much of a factor (if at all) in 1840, and that it was Gerard's ghost haunting Collinwood.
Maybe he and Daphne colluded in killing Quentin and were discovered by the children (who they also murdered). Then perhaps Gerard and Daphne were found out and executed for the murders, or maybe for witchcraft (since Gerard was dabbling in the occult). After all, the original headstone said "He lived and died in darkness..." or some such, didn't it?
What do others think? Was it actually Gerard causing the haunting of Collinwood in 1970, or do you sense the shade of Judah Zachary?
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I just assumed that the haunting of Collinwood in 1970 is actually by Judah Zachary, who is in possession of Gerard Stiles, even after death.
I hadn't considered the alternatives you mentioned. I'm afraid it gets too complicated.
I have notes for a lengthy post that I didn't get around to making that addresses this, in part as a response to all those complaints from posters here during the Summer of 1970 episodes that there is no reason for the haunting, it's arbitrary, etc.
Each scenario presents its own complications, but I assume that the whole haunting business is a story of revenge by Judah Zachary. His revenge against the Collins family is made clear in 1840. He apparently is foiled in 1840 (by Barnabas and Julia, I'm guessing), and for whatever reasons (do ghosts operate by normal human time frames and rationale?) returns to Collinwood in 1970 to try again.
I don't think Gerard Stiles would have had motive to do the haunting. He was a schemer and an opportunist, to be sure, before Judah Zachary entered the picture. But Stiles had no reason to exact revenge against the Collins family -- Judah Zachary did.
I wonder if the reappearance of a Quentin Collins at Collinwood in 1970 or shortly before became known to Judah Zachary in the shadowy netherworld and rekindled his determination to continue his quest for vengeance. I know that this isn't the same Quentin as the 1840's Quentin, but Zachary could have seen him as a surrogate for the Quentin he had foresworn to have beheaded in 1840.
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A fly in the ointment though:
The only reason for Angelique/Miranda to be in 1840 (that I can think of) is Barnabas's 'return'....this is an integral part of Judah's revenge, no?
Patti
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I just assumed that the haunting of Collinwood in 1970 is actually by Judah Zachary, who is in possession of Gerard Stiles, even after death.
I hadn't considered the alternatives you mentioned. I'm afraid it gets too complicated.
Thinking about this some more, I probably didn't always "assume" that Judah Z. was behind the 1970 haunting. That probably isn't made clear until later in the 1840 storyline -- farther along than we are in our present viewing.
And it probably isn't explicitly stated, either. Seems a lot of the time things were left for the viewer to sort through and figure out.
:)
Patti, not quite sure what you're getting at in your last post.
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I'm with Vlad on this one. Although Gerard was a scheming opportunist, he has no reason to wreak vengeance on the Collins clan in the afterlife. What I think happened is that the spirit of JZ was never exorcized from Gerard's and body and after he dies, it is really JZ (possessing Gerard's spirit) who haunts Collinwood as an evil spectre. There are scenes in the 1840 storyline where Gerard seems gentler and less possessed by evil; perhaps these are moments when Gerard's spirit predominates. There could be times when JZ doesn't feel that his presence is needed. And being shrewd, JZ may not want the change in Gerard's temperament to be that obvious anyway, so at times he allows Gerard's "soul" to peak through.
Of course, this raises some strange questions. Since a ghost has no body, how does one spirit possess another? On DS the possibilities are legion!
Then there is a future scene that adds credence to the idea that it is really the spirit of JZ who destroys Collinwood in 1970:
[spoiler]If I remember correctly, when Gerard dies in 1840 he asks Quentin to forgive him, so he repents at the end, which is not what someone bent on vengeance would do.[/spoiler]
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In the original 1840, once Quentin was executed, perhaps Judah/Gerard killed Tad, Daphne, and Carrie and then himself in the playroom. That could have been his 1840 motive- kill off a line of the Collins family. This led to the authorities to place that inscription oh his headstone.
In 1970, IMHO, JZ is leaving red herrings for Barnabas and Julia to throw them off the track. Hallie Stokes may have caused his spirit unrest due to her resemblence to Carrie.
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Wow, these are really great ideas, JoeyTrom! I'm not sure about the suicide part -- that's pretty disturbing -- but it would fit the situation, and make that headstone epitaph even darker ... I hadn't realized that Judah Zachary possessed Gerard in the way events originally played out in 1840. If that's the case, then the epitaph was harsher towards Gerard than he deserved, but of course nobody knew that he wasn't responsible for his actions ...
As far as Zachary being reminded of Carrie through Hallie, that's also a great thought. But let's see, there were quite a few people in 1970 who would have reminded JZ's ghost of 1840 Collinwood ... but David, Hallie, and Quentin would probably have been the main focus prompting his return ...
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In 1970, IMHO, JZ is leaving red herrings for Barnabas and Julia to throw them off the track.
I think you're right about this, too -- another complexity in the storyline that seems to have eluded a lot of viewers/posters.
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I keep thinking of more things ...
To add to the above ... Of course, the viewer doesn't really understand all this for a long time -- one of the great rewards of the Summer of 1970 - 1995 - 1840 storyline for those who recognize that mysteries may unwind slowly, and here the viewer also isn't spoon fed everything. Quite unique, IMO. We're challenged to keep trying to figure things out, but as one of the opening voiceovers termed these events, 1840 proves to be "the jigsaw puzzle that will not stay in place."
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Naturally, during 1995 and 1970 one has no idea of Judah Zachary - so one assumes that this Gerard is quite evil and powerful. Upon actually getting to 1840, once Judah possesses him, it always seemed obvious to me that it was really Judah, in the persona of Gerard, who haunted Collinwood through the centuries.
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:) Most people think of time as linear... Time on a line. There is a past, a present, a future. I think, for the purposes a fictional show like DS, we should think of time as circular.
;) We do not travel back and forth between times and dimensions. So, we look at time from our perspective... linear.
:- If you think of time as a circular happening, you can understand the some of the confusing storylines on DS. Each little disturbance may create a different chain of events...
;D I believe this is explained on the show.
:o So, the fact that Quentin has a Time Staircase in the 1840s, and Barnabas & Co are engaging in all kinds of timeslips, means anything can happen. I think you have to take the characters you are with, and go from there.
;D First, remember 1967? When Barnabas got out of the coffin, he didn't look at Vicki and remember her from 1795. She did not go to 1795 yet. He didn't remember Julia saw him briefly in 1840. That, also, did not happen.
;) So, you follow the characters you are with. This brings us to 1840. This thread is debating: Is the ghost in 1970 Gerard OR Judah?
;D Well, I say it's Gerard... because, when the ghost is haunting Collinwood in the future, Julia hasn't gone to the past yet. However, and this is a big HOWEVER, it is very clear that Judah is behind the ghost of Gerard (and the other ghosts) haunting Collinwood.
8) Judah's plan is to destroy, and take over the Collins Family as revenge for 1692. So, there is a chain of events...
:o Judah is behind the chain of events which includes Roxanne, and he lures Julia and Barnabas back. Then, he uses Julia to achieve his goals. If he were to have acomplished his goals, there would be no ghosts in 1970 (or, 1995). Why? Because, Collinwood would have been his (as Gerard).
;D That doesn't mean things might have been rosy all the way for Judah... as far as this storyline went, we get back to the future, briefly, to see all seems peaceful. There are no ghosts, we assume.
:) There could be a ghost of Gerard (Ivan), or a ghost of Gerard (Judah). We're led to believe the best resolution -- ghosts of neither. Just remember, time on DS is circular, not linear! --wes
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;D It always seems like I'm putting other viewpoints down, after I read what I post. I hope it doesn't bother anyone... it's not meant to!
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:) Most people think of time as linear... Time on a line. There is a past, a present, a future. I think, for the purposes a fictional show like DS, we should think of time as circular.
;) We do not travel back and forth between times and dimensions. So, we look at time from our perspective... linear.
:- If you think of time as a circular happening, you can understand the some of the confusing storylines on DS. Each little disturbance may create a different chain of events...
;D I believe this is explained on the show.
...
Just remember, time on DS is circular, not linear! --wes
I haven't made it through -- or digested -- all of your points yet, but I do like the idea of time being circular. It almost has to be ... the linear model presents too many problems. This could account for a LOT of the things that have been discussed here recently, and could account for CassandraBlair's feeling that another timeline was entered when Barnabas and Julia went back to 1840.
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I do like the idea of time being circular. It almost has to be ... the linear model presents too many problems. This could account for a LOT of the things that have been discussed here recently, and could account for CassandraBlair's feeling that another timeline was entered when Barnabas and Julia went back to 1840.
Amen to that. IMHO, 1840 almost HAS to be some kind of different timeline, since what Barnabas & co. accomplish there alters the fabric of time as we've previously known it.
[spoiler]Upon their return to 1970, they find the ghosts of Gerard and Daphne aren't there. One might also theorize that they may find nobody remembers Cassandra or Nicholas Blair. Maybe Quentin wouldn't even be there, who knows?[/spoiler]
I wonder if the original timeline, in which Collinwood was destroyed, still exists somewhere else. The idea of time being circular rather than linear suggests that, given the time slippage always happening at Collinwood, in some alternaverse the ghost of Gerard (Judah?) is still walking in darkness...
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That time can be circular does have appeal. I can also conceptualize that the universe has a limit or boundary if you will, at the same time not being able to go far enough to reach it's limit or boundary, ever. However, a part of my mind tells me that there has to be a boundary so that when I reach it, I'll finally be able to see what's on the other side. I can also visualize a man like Barnabas who passes back and forth through different time lines(?)where his molecular structure is taken apart and put back together sometimes in a slightly haphazard way as he passes back and forth. But, science is perfect (or so I've been told) so how can that be? So I can think that if it is haphazard, his experiences change consantly because his molecules are slightly different each time. But then there is always the chance that when the molecular structure is put back together again it will be a repeat of an earlier time to which can be referred back to via personal experience.