DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '03 II => Topic started by: VictoriaWintersFan on October 12, 2003, 01:31:22 AM
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Hello Dark Shadow Fans,
As you can tell obviously, my favorite character of Dark Shadows is Victoria Winters. I have always wondered if Alexandra Moltkle had decided to stay with the show until it's end, if the show would have lasted longer.
Please Answer The Following Questionarre.....
(1) What Is Your Favorite Victoria Storyline or Time Period?
(2) What Would You Have Wanted For Victoria If The Character Had Stayed Until The End, Or What Do You See What The Writers Could Have Done?
(3) Who Would Victoria Ulitmatly End Up With If It Was Your Choice?
(4) Who Were Victoria's TRUE Parents?
(5) Would The Show Have Lasted Or Been Better In It's Final Years Had Victoria Been Present?
Thanks for answering!
Shane
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VWF, hope you don't mind that I changed the text to royalblue so there'd be more contrast against the dark background.
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1. The Phoenix storyline. She showed a little more backbone and was not as clueless.
2. I would have liked to see her married to Frank Garner, living at Collinwood. I would not want to see her as a supernatural character--just an ordinary mortal trying to solve the mysteries of Collinwood and it's occupants.
3. Frank Garner
4. Elizabeth and ?
5. Yes, IMHO. I liked the character of Vicky and if they had given the character more substance maybe AM would have stayed and maybe the show would have lasted much longer. 8)
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Welcome, VictoriaWintersFan!!
I suppose I enjoyed her most in 1795. Some of the stupid things she did drive me crazy, but in general I enjoy her experience of that time.
Originally, I liked her with Frank Garner. Since he didn't last long, it's hard to say whom I would have wanted. I wasn't overly thrilled with the others she went with.
Elizabeth was definitely her mother. I've never decided about the father.
I don't know if her presence would have made any difference in the final outcome. The show lasted several years without her, so it would probably have still run its course either way.
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1. 1795.
2. She would have found out who her parents were.
3. Probably Jeff Clark. But she would have stayed in this century.
4. Elizabeth Stoddard and Jason McGuire. :o
5. Yes, it probably would have lasted. :)
EDIT: Since Barnabas Collins saved the show, have ended up with her, Barnabas and Julia doing the time travelling to save the family, instead of simply Barnabas and Julia.
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1.1795
2.found out she was a Collins
3.Liz and Paul Stoddard
4. Jeff Clark :o
5.no i don't think one role would have saved it!
jennifer(http://www.ds.boards.com/images/cowboy.gif)
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1. 1795-- I have always enjoyed stories about people from the future who somehow manage to get transported into the past.
2. I would have had her find out who her parents were.
3. Anyone but Jeff Clark... Maybe have Burke come back
$. Elizabeth and possible some romanctic "wrong" person from her past. Would have made an interesting story line
5. I don't think it would have made that much of a difference.
Birdie
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[sun] Her best storyline was during Laura's 1967 visit. She had some good episodes after that, tho... some better ones.
[sun] The one when she is trapped at the Old house during the storm. There, she has learned how to blend with Frid very well. They learned how to act together well.
[sun] Then, there is a 1795 one with her on trial, breaking down as she is declared guilty. It was a B&W kinescope one... watch for it. Alexandra is excellent in it. I think she was sick, or just getting over a flu... Still, she was very good in that one.
[sun] She was always intended to be Elizabeth Collins' daughter. Why do people debate this?
[sun] I thought she was best with Roger Davis. She seemed more natural with him (I'm not sure she would agree with that assessment!).
[sun] The show could have gone on, with or without her. She was always welcome to return. The heads lost interest in it and the popular characters wanted to do other things. They didn't want to do what viewers wanted to watch anymore.
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I'm a Victoria Winters fan also. :D
1) I'd have to say the pre-1795 period. She was a great character in the pre-Barnabas episodes, and I liked how she was drawn in by Josette's music box after Barnabas focused on her. She became way too much of a victim after hooking up with Peter/Jeff.
(2) I have to agree with many of the others. The story of who Vicki's parents were should've been resolved.
(3) Burke Devlin. I know I'm in the minority, but I liked her with Burke #2. I wouldn't have minded seeing her with Frank Garner. Honestly, I wouldn't have minded seeing her with Barnabas (although I'd prefer Barnabas with Julia, I suppose), since they shared some common interests (history, for instance).
(4) Elizabeth Collins Stoddard and a man from her past.
(5) I don't know. I don't think that one character could really change a show that much. If Vicki had stayed, I wonder what would've become of Maggie Evans. I mean, her 'sphere' - Joe and Sam - were both gone, and her 'love interest' Nicholas Blair wasn't on earth anymore.
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Welcome Victoria Winters to the group!
(1) What Is Your Favorite Victoria Storyline or Time Period?
For me it was the 1795 storyline. I love when they take trips back to the past so seeing Vicky in this one was especially interesting for me, although I do wish she had little more backbone when she got there.
(2) What Would You Have Wanted For Victoria If The Character Had Stayed Until The End, Or What Do You See What The Writers Could Have Done?
I would have liked to have seen her play an alter ego character instead of all the usual good girl roles which Im sure she must have gotten bored of. It would have been interesting to see her play the villian for a change. I think she would have liked that too.
(3) Who Would Victoria Ulitmatly End Up With If It Was Your Choice?
I always liked her with the first Burke Devlin and thought they had good chemistry together.
(4) Who Were Victoria's TRUE Parents?
Elizabeth of course. As for her Father I think Bill Malloy could have been a good candidate since he had an interest in Liz.
(5) Would The Show Have Lasted Or Been Better In It's Final Years Had Victoria Been Present?
I think the show would have lasted at the same rate as it has done but it would have been nice to see how her character fit into the storylines that were played later on.
Cassandra
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(1) What Is Your Favorite Victoria Storyline or Time Period?
I really enjoyed when Victoria first came to Collinwood, the early episodes are some of the best.
(2) What Would You Have Wanted For Victoria If The Character Had Stayed Until The End, Or What Do You See What The Writers Could Have Done?
I don't know exactly what I'd want to happen to her, but I kind of hope that something good would happen, and that she'd live happily ever after, or something like that. :)
(3) Who Would Victoria Ulitmatly End Up With If It Was Your Choice?
I know it seems like an odd match, but I think Victoria and Adam would have made an interesting couple.
(4) Who Were Victoria's TRUE Parents?
I don't know..hmm..I'll have to think about that. ???
(5) Would The Show Have Lasted Or Been Better In It's Final Years Had Victoria Been Present?
I think the show would have lasted a little longer with Victoria, and it probably would be a little better too.
>:D
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Early-diner-Maggie is one of my favorite characters of all time, so for me... the best thing to imagine if Victoria had stayed would be: having them keep up the "Eve Arden" smart-ass personality for Maggie, rather than turning her into the replacement engenue(sp?)/victim...
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I came up with quite a different theory than any proposed here regarding Victoria Winters' parentage. Taking the lead from a poster named Bob on the old VantageNet Forum, I further developed his ideas regarding Jamison Collins. I also then added or developed Bob's ideas regarding Betty Hanscombe, discussed the original story bible, and isolated specific aspects of the mystery that I felt could be attributed only to DS writer Francis Swann (including some classic mystery elements that I felt influenced him), whom I believe held the actual solution to the mystery. Cassandra Blair then modified my proposal and I believe our combined solution was correct ... but I'm not sure I care to enter the fray again! If Cassandra wants to (and has time to go into it), she's welcome ... ^-^
Despite the conventional wisdom and closed statements many make on this topic, it is not a given that Elizabeth is Victoria's mother.
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(1) What Is Your Favorite Victoria Storyline or Time Period?
The Dream curse storyline in which Victoria firmly tells Casdrangelique she would never pass on the dream..
(2) What Would You Have Wanted For Victoria If The Character Had Stayed Until The End, Or What Do You See What The Writers Could Have Done?
I would have hoped that Victoria would have upon learning she was a Collins, she stayed on and lived in Collinwood just as Carolyn does.
(3) Who Would Victoria Ulitmatly End Up With If It Was Your Choice?
The first Burke Devlin was tall dark and very handsome, and also very rich.. and with Vickie being a Collins he would then be related all the Collins' Cool! ;D
(4) Who Were Victoria's TRUE Parents?
I believe her Mother was Elizabeth Collins Stoddard and her Father was Bill Malloy, Elizabeth never told Bill, or Paul she had a child.
(5) Would The Show Have Lasted Or Been Better In It's Final Years Had Victoria Been Present?
I believe so, there was so much Vickie could have done in any of the storylines...
Sarah's [ghost]
:-*
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1.) Overall, I think Vickie was especially spunky in the early episodes when she first arrives at Collinwood. She has to deal with David's insanity, Liz's evasiveness, Roger's accusations of snooping and spying, and through it all she has a myriad of great foundling home stories to relate to everyone with a problem.
2.)Not sure what the writers could have done with the Vickie character in general, most likely what they went on to do with Maggie. I'm with whoever said though that it would have been nice to see Maggie stay as she was in the beginning. I never could buy the whole Maggie the governess thing...
3.) Frank or Burke I guess...
4.) Liz and Hanscombe the butler (which would explain the resemblance to Betty his sister or daughter or whoever)
5.) I don't think it would have made much difference in the long run. It would have been interesting to see Moltke in some different roles...I think a parallel time Vickie would have been great as an abrasive, sarcastic, drinking buddy of Roger sort of character.
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Well, let's see....
My favorite storyline: When Vicki first arrived.
As for Vicki staying, I prefer to think of her as returning. She would just show up, suffering a bout of amnesia, but with Julia's help, her memory would've returned.
Vicki would've ended up with Burke. Seems he did survive the plane crash. As to what took him so long to get back to Collinwood, well, that's a whole storyline. But they would wed.
Vicki's true parents: Elizabeth, and a brave, US soldier she met while she volunteered as a USO girl during WWII in New York City. They "get together" just before he leaves for Normandy, never to return. To avoid scandal, Elizabeth's parents hide her away in a Manhattan apartment, and once the baby is born (in the winter of 1945), she is dropped off at the orphanage, and Liz is brought back to Collinwood where, once spring arrives, she tends to the Victory Garden planted on the lawn to keep her mind off things. Of course, her parents don't even consider the ramifications of having her work in their "Victory" Garden.
I don't think the show would've lasted beyond its five year run, even if Vicki was still around, but it would've allowed for more possible storylines.
Gerard
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(1) Favorite Vicki time period/storyline? Everything up until the trip to 1795. She was just a pluckier, more sensible heroine early on.
(2) What could/should the writers have done differently if she'd stayed on the show? Would have loved to see Vicki turn to the dark side, or to have seen Alex Moltke play the heavy in a storyline.
(3) Who should Vicki have ended up with? Although the two never met, I'm interested in the pairing of Quentin and Victoria.
(4) As to the parents, the theory to which Vlad alluded was that Paul Stoddard was her father, and her mother was Betty Hanscomb (she of the Sam Evans portrait). My contribution was this: perhaps Betty Hanscomb was Jamison Collins' illegitimate daughter. This would make Vicki a Collins family member, and perhaps make Liz feel she was obligated to look after her welfare, but not want to tell her the story of her background.
That being said, emotionally I still like the idea of Vicki as Liz's daughter. Go figure.
(5) Would Vicki's presence have made the show last longer/be better? Dunno. Am guessing that the actress might have ended up playing the Daphne character, and things would've gone about the same except no Kate Jackson. If the actual character of Vicki was still there it's hard (for me) to imagine where she might've fit into the later storylines. Maybe she could have been the one to kill Jeb Hawkes.
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(4) As to the parents, the theory to which Vlad alluded was that Paul Stoddard was her father, and her mother was Betty Hanscomb (she of the Sam Evans portrait). My contribution was this: perhaps Betty Hanscomb was Jamison Collins' illegitimate daughter. This would make Vicki a Collins family member, and perhaps make Liz feel she was obligated to look after her welfare, but not want to tell her the story of her background.
That being said, emotionally I still like the idea of Vicki as Liz's daughter. Go figure.
CassB, my dear, I'm sorry to contradict you ... we had a wonderfully elaborate scenario that truly answered every shred of evidence, and although I've unfortunately forgotten our final solution,* I can say for certain that I did not initially propose Paul Stoddard as Victoria's father!
I'm hoping that the original thread (I think it was called "Victoria Winters Parentage" or something like that could be accessed from the forum archives?? :)
My printouts and notes on all of this are, of course, in storage in another state (where else? ::) ), but here's what I remember ...
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*Later: As I was writing this, it all came back ... though I'm not 100 percent certain if I've got every detail correct.
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I mentioned that I had originally believed that Paul Stoddard was Victoria's father by an unknown (and unimportant to the story) young woman, and that Elizabeth found out about it and felt guilty and wanted to support Victoria.... Later I came to accept the proposition of Elizabeth as Victoria's mother after learning of a real-life celebrity case where an actress "adopted" her actual, biological daughter and brought her home. Nevertheless, I don't feel that Elizabeth's behavior and actions fit this scenario very well.
What I did was look at Art Wallace's original concept in the "story bible" for the series, "Shadows on the Wall." If my memory serves correct, at that early stage it hadn't been decided if VW was Elizabeth's daughter, though it was hinted that this was a possibility. I began talking notes of various clues that were given, such as the name "B. Hanscomb" on the old ledger, Sam Evans' sketch of "Betty Hanscomb" (which bore a striking resemblance to both Victoria and Elizabeth), etc., and noted that these clues were all in scripts written by Francis Swann. I also looked at the other central mystery in this first part of the series, the "murder" of Paul Stoddard. As an audience, we are clearly led in the WRONG direction the whole time, assuming that Elizabeth killed Paul (which is doubly convincing since she believes this herself). Only at the moment of truth, there's a surprise revelation -- a complete twist on our expectations. Similarly, I think, we as an audience were being misled to conclude erroneously that Elizabeth was VW's mother. There was to be a moment of revelation that would have provided a surprise twist comparable to that of the mystery of Paul's murder. However, Francis Swann, who held the keys to the VW mystery, left the series before this could happen, and the matter was then left unresolved by DC & Co. The actors themselves, such as Joan Bennett, probably never really knew what Mr. Swann had up his sleeve, and eventually everyoone fell back on the vague supposition that Elizabeth was VW's mother, drawing their conclusions on this possibility from the original story bible (but which I think the evidence shows Swann had definitely moved away from).
I also think that Francis Swann had the popular Gothic-tinged Victorian mystery novel "The Woman in White" in the back of his mind as he was working out the mystery of VW in an updated Gothic setting. In the Wilkie Collins ;) novel, the young woman of mystery ( // VW in DS) turns out to be the illegitimate half-sister of the heroine ( // Eliz. Collins Stoddard). And the name that links them in the novel is Hanscomb.
The theory I then proposed (which was actually the brainchild initially of the now-unknown "Bob" on the VN board) was that Elizabeth's and Roger's father, Jamison (who would have been in his 60s I think -- I worked all this out), fathered VW with young Betty Hanscomb, the daughter of Collinwood servant "B. Handscomb." Therefore VW was Elizabeth's half-sister.
That's where you came in, Cassandra B., taking all this a step further and making an even more compelling case for Betty Hanscomb (not Victoria) being Elizabeth's half-sister. In other words, Jamison's infidelity had occurred when he was a much younger man, and he fathered Betty Hanscomb. This scenario explains why the sketch of Betty Hanscombe resembles both Elizabeth and Victoria Winters (Betty's daughter).
But I'm forgetting the important detail of whom the father was -- could it have been Paul Stoddard? Yes! I think that was it -- and that was your brilliant contribution :D , CassB: Betty was Elizabeth's half-sister (the illegitimate daughter of Jamison Collins); and then Elizabeth's new husband, Paul, carried on an affair with Betty, producing Victoria. This accounts for all of the facts, including the difficulty of explaining how Elizabeth supposedly bore a child without anyone every whispering about it, her brother Roger knowing about it, etc.
I can't remember how this worked with the "B. Hanscomb" in the ledgers, but I know that our theory left no loose ends.
I remember I had worked out the details with Sam Evans and the sketch. Basicallly I said that he suspected who Betty really was but didn't feel it was his place to tell Victoria that he thought Betty had been her mother. It wasn't his place, much as he thought of Vicky as a nice kid and had sympathy for her, but instead he fudged some of the facts, just as Elizabeth denied the obvious resemblance between Betty Hanscomb and Victoria. In the 1960s people were not as open and accepting of illegitamacy as they are today -- rather, it was a "stain" -- and it certainly would not have been appropriate for Sam to voice his conclusions to Vicki.
My and Cassandra's combined theory also explains the relationship Elizabeth has with VW. Elizabeth cares about the girl (her niece) and feels responsible toward her knowing her father's role in the matter (as Betty's father), and Paul's role (as Victoria's father) . Victoria Winters is a Collins. Given societal and her own strictures, Elizabeth cannot acknowledge Victoria as such. She feels kindly towards her, but is able to maintain a slight emotional distance that would have been far more difficult had VW actually been her own daughter (and Carolyn's sister).
Say what you will -- though it has been "decided" today that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother, a close reading of the actual evidence suggests that a far different solution was being set up but was unfortunately dropped before it could be concluded.
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Always happy to have another Vicki fan.
1. Fave Vicki storyline was the Jason McGuire extortion plot. I liked the tension between her and Carolyn among other things.
2. There are a bunch of possibilities, most of the good ones (my opinion) involving Alex Moltke playing a darker character (evil twin-Vicki or PT-Vicki work). As for the "original" Vicki character, I don't think a lot could've been done with her barring a real overhaul of the character.
3. I'd like to see a more strong willed Vicki whip some young evil guy into shape. Something along the lines of Maggie forcing Nick Blair to go shopping or keep her company at the Inn as opposed to sacrificing her into Hell.
4. I think its appropriate the plot line the show was founded on was never resolved in the slightest
5. She was good-looking enough that anything is possible. But honestly, folks, I really don't think it would've made a real difference. Keeping the character they had in '68 probably would've run the show into the ground sooner...
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The original character of Victoria Winters was predicated upon the original concept of "Dark Shadows" as a Gothic/Mystery Soap Opera. And, at the same time, the character of Vicky was very much the first mystery upon which the show was built.
Once the show took a complete turn towards the Supernatural, the character of Vicky was forced to alter to accomodate the new direction. Fiesty 'girls' like Maggie originally was, are fun to watch....but they don't work too well with situations involving the inexplicable. They don't wring their hands and say "I don't understand".....they grab flashlights and pistols and go in search of the real-life bad guys they expect to find behind the 'supernatural' stuff they don't believe in.
Vicky Winters would have turned Collinwood upside down to find the truth about her parentage.....but it just wouldn't do to have her wandering around the Old House, threatening to slap Willie Loomis silly if he didn't get the hell out of her way while she looked in the cellar.....so they rendered her clueless and pathetic.
I think getting rid of the character was inevitable...even if Alexandra Moltke had chosen to stay, I think she would have had to morph into someone else entirely.
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Despite the conventional wisdom and closed statements many make on this topic, it is not a given that Elizabeth is Victoria's mother.
The great thing about fandom is that it's possible to debate and deconstruct all the unresolved questions on DS. However, I believe that the vast majority of fans believe that Liz is Vicki's mother because 1) Joan Bennett had commented that she was told almost from the very outset that Liz was Vicki's mother and that's how she always played their relationship, and 2) DS producer Robert Costello has commented that, after they hired Alexandra Moltke and saw her resemblance to Bennett, they decided to deviate from Art Wallace's bible and make Liz Vicki's mother. And they didn't make these comments while DS was originally on the air, but years, even decades after it had been cancelled. One can't help but understand how comments from two people so closely associated with DS might hold more weight with fans than any theories we fans might come up with, no matter how well researched they may or may not be. [smlyg] But as I said, debate is and always will be a really wonderful thing. And we should never not engage in it simply because it seems as if a lingering question was resolved in a way other than during the course of the show (like Bennett and Costello's comments). If there wasn't ever an explicit and definitive answer to a question in the actual episodes, then it is and always will be up for debate...
I'm hoping that the original thread (I think it was called "Victoria Winters Parentage" or something like that could be accessed from the forum archives?? :)
Unfortunately that isn't possible. For some sad reason that topic is the only topic that ever became corrupt while we were with our old host. We never realized that until we converted the system from YaBB SP to SE, but it wouldn't have mattered because we soon discovered that even all of our backups of the topic were also corrupt.
Could someone - or someTHING - have been trying to tell us something? [wink2]
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CassB, my dear, I'm sorry to contradict you ... we had a wonderfully elaborate scenario that truly answered every shred of evidence, and although I've unfortunately forgotten our final solution,* I can say for certain that I did not initially propose Paul Stoddard as Victoria's father!
Wow Vlad. Your memory on this one is better than mine. Guess I was just remembering the end result, not how we got there. Sorry!
Looked for the VW parentage thread earlier, and couldn't find it. Now I know why - of all the convoluted topics, this was the one that got corrupted! Maybe somebody was trying to tell us something. ^-^
I never knew about the Wilkie Collins "Lady in White" angle - wonder if the DS writers did take the name Hanscomb from the novel?
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(1) What Is Your Favorite Victoria Storyline or Time Period?
She's pretty good in the early episodes, where she has a quest and a purpose. And the sequence where David traps her in the abandoned wing is a highlight of the first year - pure gothic pulp.
(2) What Would You Have Wanted For Victoria If The Character Had Stayed Until The End, Or What Do You See What The Writers Could Have Done?
Evil Vicki! Hahahahaha... How cool would that have been? Possessed by the Devil and covertly psychotic would be amusing. Or maybe she finds out she's really a Collins and begins to dig her heels in, all bitter over her lost birthright. The Liz/Vicki revelation is an obvious one, and it might have been rewarding seeing the fall-out and the pair reconciled.
(3) Who Would Victoria Ulitmately End Up With If It Was Your Choice?
Her and Burke. Both of them are lonely people - he's got a past he wants to forget, she's robbed of one... they both know what it's like to be an outsider. Hmmmmm...
(4) Who Were Victoria's TRUE Parents?
"Return to Collinwood" answers that one... please no bleating about "canon", people ;)
(5) Would The Show Have Lasted Or Been Better In It's Final Years Had Victoria Been Present?
No. After 1795, she's a bit lost, truth be told. Alexandra Moltke's memorable bitch at the time about Vicki's stupidity generally hits the nail on the head.
In some respects, it's a pity that Carolyn Groves didn't get the gig before Betsy Durkin, because I think the character would have lasted, and Groves manages to bring some interesting new shades to the role. Her Vicki seems far more mature and self-assured, and it might have been interesting to see if and how the writers would have responded to it.
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Hey ...Adra here....
In response to your questions...here goes...
1) My favorite Victoria time period was around the time Laura appeared(Pheonix Storyline)..She did some of her best acting around that time....
2) Maybe Victoria could have aided Barnabas and Julia in their time traveling escapades.
3) I would have liked to see Victoria's relationship with Frank Garner rekindled. They made a cute couple.
4) It's a toss up on her father..but Liz could be the mother.
5) I believe the show would have ended with or without her. It would have been nice to see her playing some of the characters in other times. Imagine seeing Alexandra Moltke playing Daphne Harridge or Samantha Collins. I would have loved to see her play a Collins.
Adra
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Looked for the VW parentage thread earlier, and couldn't find it. Now I know why
Well, it's not entirely gone. Some of the posts do show - just not all of them. [sadg]
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Well, it's not entirely gone. Some of the posts do show - just not all of them. [sadg]
Yep, "Victoria Winter's Parents" is in Current Talk IV on p. 16.
A similar topic called "vicki's past", in case anyone is interested, is in Current Talk II, p. 7.
Searching for these titles will bring up either as well (but leave off the quotation marks), as will a message search for a common word in this discussion, such as "Hanscomb". Just be sure to increase the maximum age when performing an advanced search for older topics.
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The theory I then proposed (which was actually the brainchild initially of the now-unknown "Bob" on the VN board) was that Elizabeth's and Roger's father, Jamison (who would have been in his 60s I think -- I worked all this out), fathered VW with young Betty Hanscomb, the daughter of Collinwood servant "B. Handscomb." Therefore VW was Elizabeth's half-sister.
That's where you came in, Cassandra B., taking all this a step further and making an even more compelling case for Betty Hanscomb (not Victoria) being Elizabeth's half-sister. In other words, Jamison's infidelity had occurred when he was a much younger man, and he fathered Betty Hanscomb. This scenario explains why the sketch of Betty Hanscombe resembles both Elizabeth and Victoria Winters (Betty's daughter).
But I'm forgetting the important detail of whom the father was -- could it have been Paul Stoddard? Yes! I think that was it -- and that was your brilliant contribution :D , CassB: Betty was Elizabeth's half-sister (the illegitimate daughter of Jamison Collins); and then Elizabeth's new husband, Paul, carried on an affair with Betty, producing Victoria. This accounts for all of the facts, including the difficulty of explaining how Elizabeth supposedly bore a child without anyone every whispering about it, her brother Roger knowing about it, etc.
This also accounts for the relatively large age diffference between Elizabeth and Roger--- eight years according to their family bible (18 years according to "Shadows on the Wall"):
Ennui sets in between Jamison and his wife.
Jamison engages in affair with the sister of the butler Hanscombe, who was, most likely, working as a maid.
She gets pregnant, and perhaps, dies in childbirth. If so, the butler, at first not aware of the ID of the baby girl's father, names her Elizabeth, either as a compliment to his boss's legitimate daughter, or after one of his own relatives. If however, the young mother survived, maybe she chose the name to express her resentment that Jamison would not leave his family for her. In any case, the two little girls are nicknamed Liz and Betty, so they don't get called to the wrong supper tables.
Jamison's wife discovers the affair, and the birth. Jamison refuses to send away his inconvenient second family. Ennui turns to estrangement for a couple of years.
Then something happens--- either the butler's sister has left, due to marriage or a better job opportunity, or, more likely, has died, which would better explain why Betty was raised by her uncle. Plus, the death of her rival would be more likely to soften the attitude of Jamison's wife.
She consents to let the two half-sisters become playmates, though always reminding them of the difference in status. She also reconciles with Jamison, and nine months later, little Roger is born. It is not stated in the program at which point Liz and Roger's mother has died, though SotW has the now-middle-aged "Carolyn" (for whom Liz later names her own daughter) dying in childbirth.
If so, at that point, Jamison really begins to indulge ALL his children, including Betty, having her portrait painted by Sam Evans (but, due to his death soon afterward, never delivered), and sending her to school in NYC. There, unfortunately, she meets Paul Stoddard and his disreputable friend Jason McGuire. Despite the example of her own late mother, Betty falls in love with Paul, and is soon made pregnant.
She finds out that her father has just died, but her funds have been cut off. This, then,
could be evidence that Jamison's spiteful wife was still alive, or that Liz realized the "truth" about her father and was P.O.'d at the moment, or, perhaps, Jamison's sister Nora (like Justin's sister Julia in PT 1841) had something to do with it. Anyway, Paul soon tires of his now-penniless, pregnant girlfriend, who has, moreover, told him all about her wealthy half-sister back in Maine. He leaves her, with a lie that he will personally appeal to Liz to give Betty her rightful share of the inheritance. Jason stays in NYC, "befriending" Betty, for the time being.
Of course, you know the rest--- Paul wasted no time in courting and wedding the frustrated Liz, who has had to manage her father's business, oversee Roger's care, and perhaps deal with her difficult mother, thus leaving little time for romance, and her biological clock ticking away. Liz got pregnant a year later, and Paul, with Jason's connivance, managed to keep Betty from contacting her. Liz's mother must have died by that time, and the new baby was named for her.
Meanwhile, Betty bore her own child in NYC, shortly found she couldn't support her, and, "helped" by Jason, dropped her off at the orphanage. Either one of them could have written the note, so the handwriting didn't match Liz's. Miraculously, the baby Victoria was not adopted in the interim. Finally, Jason left Betty and went to join Paul, who about to abscond with some Collins funds, and wanted his share. He may have brought a letter from Betty, which Liz would have found in Paul's luggage after she thought she killed him.
By this time, Vicki was a toddler, and Liz was alone with her own baby Carolyn, having sacked everyone except Mathew Morgan, and Hanscombe, whom she probably paid off, along with his niece--- her half-sister--- so they would both disappear. Sick of the consequences of their involvment with the Collinses and their in-laws, they might have gone willingly--- Betty, now relieved of responsibility for the daughter she hadn't held since Vicki was an infant, anyway.
Out of guilt, Liz then paid for Vicki's care and education, which also kept her from being adopted, though one could understand why she wouldn't have been willing to RAISE the child. She also kept track of Vicki's life in the orphanage; she told Roger that the girl had a lonely childhood there. Sympathy, curiosity, and a desire to do finally do right by her niece/stepdaughter, who apparently had not inherited any bad qualities from her erring parents, caused Liz to bring Vicki "home"--- but in a subordinate position.
Little is explained by Liz's reaction when Roger, at first, sexually harrassed Vicki. After all, her own daughter, Carolyn, was, more or less, flirting with her uncle. (rather suggestive for 1966!) Still, Roger wasn't trying to break into HER bedroom, as far as we know. Liz displayed anger when her brother bothered Vicki, but not the outrage one would have expected if he had actually made an advance on a child of hers.
All that much having been said, IF they had brought back the Vicki character, even without Alexandra Moltke (Betsy Durkin--- No! Carolyn Groves--- Si!) and Liz, was, after all, revealed to be her mother, given that an ordinary mortal Dad wouldn't have been exciting enough by then, I nominate Nicholas Blair. (Well, he had all those powers--- he COULD have made himself look like someone else back in 1945, or maybe, he and Liz were made to FORGET their affair, by Diablos.)
Adding a little confusion to your day.
L.
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Wowie!! You've certainly worked out a full story around all of them - quite amazing!
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Had AM stayed on DS, perhaps she would have been the time traveller to 1897 or played Rachael Drummond.
Kathryn Leigh Scott might have been phased out as Maggie would not have any more use in the story. She would have appeared only occasionally or maybe not at all during the Quentin hauntings. There would be no 1897 character for KLS to play, so she may have been let go.
Love the Vicki parentage theories! Carolyn Groves would have made a good Vicky. If only she was hired before Betsy Durkin.
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Kathryn Leigh Scott might have been phased out as Maggie would not have any more use in the story. She would have appeared only occasionally or maybe not at all during the Quentin hauntings. There would be no 1897 character for KLS to play, so she may have been let go.
Uh, you'd better hope that no members of TLATKLS Legion read that. [b003]
Carolyn Groves would have made a good Vicky. If only she was hired before Betsy Durkin.
I agree. I like Groves' interpretation of Vicki and have often wondered if Vicki might not have been written out so unceremoniously had Groves taken over the role before Durkin did...
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Just to chime in with my two drachmae on the subject...
Agree that Liz was Vicki's Mom; I watched the Oct.-Nov. 1966 episodes recently and the way Joan was playing the role was definitely as if Vicki was the daughter by whom she was trying finally to do right, bringing her to Collinwood.
I think Hanscomb was the Father and that Liz had had an affair with him. It's too bad they did not do a storyline where Frank found Hanscomb and brought him back to Collinwood for a showdown with Liz. Perhaps this was discussed and then switched to the Jason story that they did wind up doing.
As for Vicki's fate, she should have married Frank. Conrad Fowkes was by far the most personable of the men they paired her with, and there seemed to be some genuine chem between the two. I assume that Fowkes ran afoul of DC and left the series because of that--happened with a lot of other talented folks (Fowkes?) When AM wanted out of the series in the Fall of 1968, I'd have preferred a storyline where Frank returned to Collinwood and brought Vicki out of her depression in the wake of Peter/Jeff's disappearance from the scene. I'd have relished dialogue along the lines of "Peter Bradford was just a bad dream." Yeah, the kind of thing you get after too much chips and salsa late at night.
I don't think DS' run would have been prolonged if Moltke had stayed on board, but we would have gotten the chance to see her do other roles. I don't see Vicki being paired with Barnabas under any circumstances. I think the writing team would have had to have been given a freer hand to have developed some different styles of storytelling after 1968 for Moltke to have had sufficient interest in staying, and it is possible that this kind of overhaul might have prolonged the life of the series. Since I personally believe that DC chose to pull the plug on the series, I don't think any amount of retooling or ratings burst could have saved it.
G.
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Picking up on something mentioned earlier about Joan Bennett having always played Liz as Vicki's mother...
I was watching the episode where Vicki (Durkin incarnation) finally marries Jeff Clark, with Liz as her witness. There's a moment at the end of the ceremony where Elizabeth is left alone, her smile drops and she looks simply devastated - I swear, I got a tear in my eye. It really is a mother grieving the loss of her child -- it's screaming out. A wonderful little scene.
Watching, it seemed to sum up the truth of their relationship so deeply, that I really wonder if the writers knew that Vicki was doomed and figured they'd throw the fans a line to give that thread some resolution.
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I believe that the vast majority of fans believe that Liz is Vicki's mother because 1) Joan Bennett had commented that she was told almost from the very outset that Liz was Vicki's mother and that's how she always played their relationship
I don't wish to belabor the matter, but what I had read about Joan Bennett's comment differs slightly but significantly from what you say. I read that she, Joan Bennett, as an actress, made an actor's decision (necessary for subtext, whatever) that Elizabeth was Vicki's mother. If you have information that truly states that she was specifically told that she was Vicki's mother, I'd be interested in seeing that.
Interpreting an actor's performance is subjective, of course, but I saw nothing in her performance that could not also be interpreted by the viewer (especially if a twist to the mystery were later revealed) that Elizabeth had a familial relationship to Vicki that doesn't necessarily have to have been maternal. An aunt, for example, could feel maternally toward a niece.
and 2) DS producer Robert Costello has commented that, after they hired Alexandra Moltke and saw her resemblance to Bennett, they decided to deviate from Art Wallace's bible and make Liz Vicki's mother. And they didn't make these comments while DS was originally on the air, but years, even decades after it had been cancelled. One can't help but understand how comments from two people so closely associated with DS might hold more weight with fans than any theories we fans might come up with, no matter how well researched they may or may not be.
I would like to know what Francis Swann had to say on the matter since he wrote the episodes I refer to. How much liberty would a writer have in developing aspects of a storyline? The producer? How trustworthy is memory years after the fact? Have we seen evidence that memories of various DS personalities are always trustworthy and accurate?
>:D
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If you have information that truly states that she was specifically told that she was Vicki's mother, I'd be interested in seeing that.
Actually, Joan Bennett stated it on numerous occasions at the DS Fests. Perhaps someone who taped her appearances captured at least one such occassion. I don't know because I don't own any of the tapes - but I do know what I heard. [winkg]
I would like to know what Francis Swann had to say on the matter since he wrote the episodes I refer to. How much liberty would a writer have in developing aspects of a storyline? The producer? How trustworthy is memory years after the fact? Have we seen evidence that memories of various DS personalities are always trustworthy and accurate?
Trustworthy memory is always at issue years later (the slips in some of the early PomPress books are legendary! [lghy]). But I actually believe others have made the same comment that Costello did regarding the decision to make Liz Vicki's mother. Someday I'll have to look them up - but it probably won't be until sometime after we've switched to the new system and I begin to post articles in the Members' Archive again...
As for Swann, I don't think I've ever read an interview with him. I'm sure one would be fascinating. But if his experience working with DC was like the majority of the other DS writers, chances are he'd probably liken a good portion of his experience to slave labor. [sadg] Also, one has to remember that Swann was only an associate writer - DC had appointed himself as head writer, despite the fact that Art Wallace was far more qualified for the position and had developed much of the story. With DC and Wallace battling for story control much of the time, who knows how much Swann might have been able to influence the direction the storylines took? [rleyeg]
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I thought in the early episodes, Elizabeth treated Victoria like an employee. Elizabeth on more than one occasion threatened to have Victoria discharged. She doted on Carolyn while using Victoria as a governess to her homicidal nephew. I have always liked the character of Elizabeth who always tried to be honorable. By making Elizabeth Victoria's mother, she becomes a much less admirable person. She dumps a baby off in an orphanage(paying a minuscule stipend) then hires her on as an employee all the while lavishing time and attention on Carolyn(maybe they should have hired Joan Crawford to play mommie dearest instead). ;)
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During the first year, I think DC was a little more restraint over what went on then he was in later years. The story was not fast paced then.
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Actually, Joan Bennett stated it on numerous occasions at the DS Fests. Perhaps someone who taped her appearances captured at least one such occassion. I don't know because I don't own any of the tapes - but I do know what I heard.
Although it might not be considered as "official" as anything from the show itself, for DREAMS OF THE DARK, we were told explicitly by DC that Vickie is Elizabeth's daughter. We did not, however, receive any specifics; it would have been an interesting topic to explore, had the novel series continued.
--Mark
[/glow]
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Although it might not be considered as "official" as anything from the show itself, for DREAMS OF THE DARK, we were told explicitly by DC that Vickie is Elizabeth's daughter.
How interesting!! I hadn't heard anything like that before!! While we still don't know the father, I think we have to take the identity of the mother as settled!!
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Victoria Winters was the daughter of Elizabeth Collins. This should be beyond debate. Her father (Jamison Joseph Collins) must have made her give up the baby. It was out-of-wedlock, remember, in the 1940s. I'm sure Elizabeth had no choice!
The show pointed to Mr. Handscomb as the father. I think he was a butler, or butler-like character (The butler did it!). So, that was very "naughty" -- out-of-wedlock, and with the "help."
The direction the show might have taken was that Burke, Laura and Roger's car killed Handscomb (in 1956). Handscomb was returning to Collinsport. He talked to Sam, first, then Roger saw him -- and, crash!
Betty's "portrait" was really done up from a photo of Alexandra, of course. "Betty" could be a nickname for "Elizabeth," but there are other soap-opera like explainations for the "Betty" picture.
I think it was decided (wisely) that the character of Victoria Winters was more interesting as a gothic lass who doesn't know who she is... and is "searching for her identity." This added to the "drifting, lost soul" quality of the character as the series went on -- the trips Vicki took to the 1790s were better because Vicki had no idea who she was or where she belonged.
If you remember, Jebez Hawkes "killed" Vicki... so this opens up the possibility that Vicki was actually protected from the Leviathans (if they wanted a Collins girl?). Still, we can't assume Liz sent Vicki away -- it mustive been Jamison. She probably had a lot of guilt about it... blamed herself, and might have had a difficult time with the admission... Oh well, I'll stop now, repeating myself.
PS You must READ that book "DARK SHADOWS: DREAMS OF THE DARK" -- it is GREAT. It is very, very true to the show. There is a great scene between Liz and Vicki that answers all the questions about their relationship. It makes perfect sense. READ "DREAMS OF THE DARK"
By the way, anybody know why it says I'm a Llama? Why couldn't it be a Unicorn, or shoething more DS-like?
:)
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By the way, anybody know why it says I'm a Llama? Why couldn't it be a Unicorn, or shoething more DS-like?
:)
Knock knock. Who's there? Llama. Llama who? Llama little teapot...
Ahem, sorry. Wes, there are different "mascots" for the various programming languages based on the covers of some of the books. The llama is associated with Perl, which an older version of the forum was based on. To get rid of it:
Click "profile" in the horizontal menu, type your current password into the top Required Info section (NOT where you're asked to type it twice-- that's for changing your pw), remove "I'm a llama!" from your Personal Text and feel free to replace it with something you prefer, then click Change profile to save it.
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Victoria Winters was the daughter of Elizabeth Collins. This should be beyond debate.
My experiences in fandom have led me to believe that the only universally accepted canon has been the original series, and even that is rife with inconsistencies and open to interpretation. I also feel that as long as fans hold different theories about it this debate will be ongoing, and as this is a discussion forum all opinions about the subject are welcome.
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I'm so happy to be rid of the llama! Thank you. Obviously, someone from Collinwood had something to do with birthing Vicki. They drifted too far from Walt Cummings for that to be the answer. They went the route of Liz being the unrevealed mother, I thought... that was the direction. The direction could have changed, of course... anything's possible!
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Also . .the 'radio play' staged at this year's DSFEST put a lid on it, officially so to speak as DC Productions is involved in the Fest (a la Jim Pierson). Vicki was Liz's daugter. ..by whom, it was not answered. But in Liz's will she told Carolyn. . . so paternity is still up to debate .. . not that it matters to much, imo.
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Reading everything here, I've come to the realization that I had always assumed (despite the old never assume adage) that Liz was Vicki's mother and always felt that Joan Bennett played the role in that way. Now I wonder if my own assumptions skewed my perception of the situation.
My experiences in fandom have led me to believe that the only universally accepted canon has been the original series, and even that is rife with inconsistencies and open to interpretation.
I could not agree more... and isn't that the great thing about DS as a whole. Although we'd all probably like definitive answers to our never-ending questions, in a way I'm rather glad that so many questions regarding plots and characters have remained unanswered... it gives us so much to speculate on and imagine for ourselves.
As far as Vicki's paternity, Hanscomb certainly seems the logical choice, although I'd almost like to think that it was Bill Malloy... at least that would make me feel better about the amount of time spent lingering on his murder and that darn pen ;)
grayson67 (Melissa)
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I think anyone who has read this thread, or previous discussions, on the topic of Victoria's heritage can see that the matter is not "beyond debate." As Midnite suggests, a final answer was not explicitly given on the show. Therefore, since intelligent and observant people disagree in their interpretations, it obviously remains debatable. All of us who have posted here have picked up on different and contradictory evidence, some of it from outside the actual show's content, such as comments made by actors, producers, the story bible, etc. Some of the evidence cited here could be called theory, fancy, or even hearsay.
What I think remains undisputed is that the mystery of Vicky's parentage was in a state of flux and ideas about it changed. The story bible suggested one possibility; some of the writing seemed to suggest another possibility or possibilities; and outside testimony states that such-and-such a decision was made at such-and-such a point in time. Finally, 30 years later, Dan Curtis gave the explicit directive to Stephen Mark Rainey and Elizabeth Massey that Elizabeth should be Vicki's mother in their DCP-sanctioned novel. (This was discussed with Mark Rainey the last time the topic was discussed, too, in the thread that became corrupted.)
I'll just offer one final bit of speculation. In my opinion, writer Francis Swann may have been working on a different assumption than the one most fans of the show have settled upon, and perhaps Swann's concept was along the lines of one of the versions developed by Bob, CassandraBlair, and myself. This is even more speculative, but perhaps Swann was not going in the direction that the producers decided on, and that could have had something to do with why he left the show just when the mystery was heating up.
Grayson67 wrote:
Although we'd all probably like definitive answers to our never-ending questions, in a way I'm rather glad that so many questions regarding plots and characters have remained unanswered... it gives us so much to speculate on and imagine for ourselves.
I'd like to frame this and hang it in a DS shrine in a corner of my room :)
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Hello, All!
My answers:
1. Fav VW storyline: Liz/Jason, 1795
2. I would have wanted the original Vicki to stay until the end. I would have wanted the writers to write these storylines:
a) Vicki's Foundling Home Days, b) Vicki's courtship with Willie Loomis, c) Vicki finally divorcing Jeff Clark, and finally, Vicki finds her long-lost twin in Collinsport and both Vicki and her twin raise more caine and evil than any of the other villains combined.
3. I would have wanted Vicki to end up with either Willie, Barnabas, or Quentin
4. Vicki's Real Parents: Father is Barnabas Collins PT and Mother is Elizabeth Collins Stoddard.
The show would have lasted longer with AM and might have spun off into another series: After Collinwood.
LOL
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1. Barnabas and Victoria's friendship....he was always a gentleman to her and she was a lady to him. I love their friendship because they truly respected and cared for each other. Even when Barnabas was still a vampire and wanted to turn her into Josette you could tell he really cared for her because he wanted her to come to her of her own free will, he didn't want to force her to come to him. :)
2.Have to go with the majority....it would have been nice if the writers had followed through with having Victoria discover who her parents were.
3.Peter Bradford (we were left to assume that she did wind up with him until an unpleasant twist came up later came on >:()
4.I always like to think Elizabeth was Vicki's mother....they had a really special bond. They were so close it is easy to believe they could be mother and daughter. As for Vicki's father.....maybe Sam Evans? (Going out on a limb here, can't think of anyone better, though Sam and Vicki were pretty close as well).
5.Don't know about this one. We'll never know how the storylines might have changed had Victoria stayed. :(