DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '02 I => Topic started by: Julia99 on March 02, 2002, 09:43:34 AM
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?!?Now if Angie can do the following:
**make Jeremiah want Josette
**make Josette want Jeremiah
**make Ben Stokes her toady/slave, and
**Turn Joshua into a Cat!
Why can't she just work her magic to make Barnabas luv her?? Or at least elevate her social standing. . .I don't get it. .
TEXTJulia99TEXT
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The unfortunate (and frustrating) answer to this one is that Angelique wants Barnabas to come to her of his own free will, and she makes a big deal about this point throughout the storyline. She's deadset against applying her magic directly to him, but apparently it's OK to trap him into marriage by attacking and eliminating everyone close to him with that same magic. It seems to be a personal quest for her--to prove that Barnabas really loved her all along by getting him to come back to her naturally. Although after so many spells, (Josette and Jeremiah, Sarah) I think that Angelique has cheated a bit on that rule.
ProfStokes
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SPOILER*******
Tension was needed between these two for the plot.
The fine line between love and hate was broken in the 1840 storyline. ::)
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:P Let's not go the 1840 storyline and that whole bizzaro ending. . .i personally found it very improbable.. in my loosely held together internal world-- ( ;)) He did that so she'd finally leave him alone. . .it was a ruse or lie. . .And how he spoke about it to Julia right after. . grr makes me mad just to think about it. . . :-/ Julia99
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Say, Julia99, do you suppose that if Julia had a few spells up her sleeve she would have used them to make Barnabas fall for her?
ProfStokes
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Say, Julia99, do you suppose that if Julia had a few spells up her sleeve she would have used them to make Barnabas fall for her?
Prof. Stokes
What an interesting idea?? I never thought of that. . .Julia did have drugs up her sleeve and she didn't use them. . she wanted Barn for real just like Angie. But I'm sure she woulda used spells to keep Angie and other girls away just like Angie. . actually the two women had ALOT in common. . . except Jules was good and patient, Angie was not.
Julia99
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Now Julia99 we can hardly call an accomplice to murder (Dr Woodard's) good...
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What an interesting idea?? I never thought of that. . .Julia did have drugs up her sleeve and she didn't use them. . she wanted Barn for real just like Angie. But I'm sure she woulda used spells to keep Angie and other girls away just like Angie. . actually the two women had ALOT in common. . . except Jules was good and patient, Angie was not.
Julia99
Not sure I could ever consider Julia "good" but aside from that, it's interesting that you use those words "good and patient". Barnabas twits Julia about her femininity and her "modern ways"--women to some then (and now) were meant to be the pursued and not the pursuers. He certainly ascribed to that notion, and apparently Julia did too (If I wait long enough, he'll see that I'm the only one for him).
While I am not an Angelique fan by any means and while I certainly don't consider her a feminist either, you'll note that she doesn't sit around waiting and hoping for her prince to come and declare his love for her.
Back to the notion of making Barnabas love Angelique, I think the problem is that:
a)according to canon you cannot make someone love you by magic--lust for you, yes; obsess about you, yes; turn into a slave, yes; love you, no. Angelique knows that.
b)Angelique is monomanical. She's got it into her head that Barnabas has to love her on his own, and damn it all, she's going to stick to that, even if she has to decimate the entire village to accomplish her goal.
and
c)She's got self-esteem issues. Unlike the object of her affections (who has certainly never worried a lot about reciprocity), she needs to be told that she's desirable, the cat's meow, his sun, the moon, the stars, etc. My feeling is that, he probably did all that in the throes of passion and now she wants and needs to hear it all over again, constantly if possible.
Kind of sad really . . .
Luciaphil
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Now Julia99 we can hardly call an accomplice to murder (Dr Woodard's) good...
True Vam, true but that was early in the series. . .Julia and Barnabas both undergo dramatic personality reformations by the end of the show.. . and in the 'entire context' of the show, Julia was good and Angie wasn't. Even though they both did good and bad things at times.
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Angelique reforms ....look at the 1840 storyline. I know Julia you won't give the witch a break! Only julia receives absolution from you-
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Angelique reforms ....look at the 1840 storyline. I know Julia you won't give the witch a break! Only julia receives absolution from you-
The problem with Angelique's "reform" and the denouement for the 1840 storyline is that it was quite obviously tacked on, in a hurry, and without a lot (heck, without any) development or thought on the part of the writers.
Barnabas' sudden love of Angelique as well as her sudden reformation do not ring true to a lot of fans. Yes, people can change/reform, etc., but there usually has to be effort, thought, impetus behind it.
Given all that we know about these two characters, I honestly don't see how we can reasonably and rationally assume that either of them were going to go become productive and non-threatening members of society and go and sin no more . . .
Luciaphil
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I never did understand why Angelique had self-esteem issues, unless she was really mistreated as a child (which I suppose can be explained in ANGELIQUE'S DESCENT, if you want to believe Lara Parker's version). She was gorgeous, charming, and certainly could have had a man fall in love with her on her own terms. She set her sights on BARNABAS, and he was the beginning and end as far as she was concerned. The problem was, and a spoiler is coming for those who haven't seen the entire 1795 storyline,
even when she blackmailed Barnabas into marrying her, she still didn't trust him or believe he cared enough. When she learned he was giving santuary to Vicki, she was furious enough to make sure Vicki was captured by Trask and removed from HER home. Angelique could never relax, even when she got what she wanted. I think she would have been happy as Sky Rumson's wife, coddled in luxury by a rich man, but that fell apart on her through no fault of her own.
Like everyone in DARK SHADOWS, Angelique was looking for love, but in all the wrong ways, and even when she finally got the man she wanted, instead of dropping the use of witchcraft (which she even told Ben she would after the Jeremiah's ghost fiasco), she couldn't do it, and it proved to be her downfall and the end of her brief marriage to the man she loved. Remember, Barnabas overheard her incantation, which piqued his suspicions and led to his realization that his wife was the real witch.
Love, Robin
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Is it my imagination, perhaps an aberation, that you are on a crusade against the character Angelique (or the actress that plays the part) for some reason? I can't say a word in reference with out you jumping all over me.
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Is it my imagination, perhaps an aberation, that you are on a crusade against the character Angelique (or the actress that plays the part) for some reason? I can't say a word in reference with out you jumping all over me.
Everyone is encouraged to express their opinions about the characters on the show, and if you put an opinion out there then it becomes subject to debate; that's the nature of a discussion forum. But VAM, I'm asking you to please refrain from making direct references to the posters for their opinions. It's not my intention at all to upset you or silence you and I certainly don't want to drive you away, but I'm thinking that maybe you're not aware of how you're coming across, yet your comments lately often sound to me like personal attacks. So PLEASE, I'm only asking you to stop making the disagreements personal.
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Midnight,
Sorry, It appeared as over reacting to a response. Maybe I just misread the intent.
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.Julia and Barnabas both undergo dramatic personality reformations by the end of the show.. . and in the 'entire context' of the show, Julia was good and Angie wasn't. Even though they both did good and bad things at times.
Angelique reforms ....look at the 1840 storyline. I know Julia you won't give the witch a break! Only julia receives absolution from you-
First of all, I would like to make clear that this post is not intended as an attack, and I don't mean to offend anybody, particularly Angelique's fans.
One of the things that troubles me most about Angelique (apart from her cruelty and the fact that she was doing all of these horrible things in the first place) is that she doesn't show any remorse. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember a time when Angelique ever said to Barnabas, "Oh, Barnabas, I love you so--and by the way, I'm really sorry about destroying your family, stalking you through the centuries, and especially turning you into a vampire. " Even Barnabas and Julia were sorry for their crimes afterward; Angelique only seemed to repent when her spells backfired on her. Yes, I agree that she did mature throughout the series. I was particularly impressed by her behavior during the 1897 and Leviathan storylines. However, following a certain unpleasant discovery about the current man in her life, Angelique did suffer a little setback, and although I can understand why this would happen, I also feel that it reinforces something else that I believe about Angelique. I consider her to be very self-serving. As I see it, what she does is done solely to benefit her. Her actions are carried out with the intent of getting Barnabas to like her, not because she necessarily believes in what she's doing. She'll perform good works for a while if it suits her purposes, but then she'll turn bad again to get what she wants. She's too mercurial for me to trust her. I do think that she loves Barnabas in her own way, but I can't comfortably accept her sincerety in other matters (e.g. 1840.)
Julia's not exactly one of my favorite characters either (sorry, J99), but I do consider her to be more selfless than Angelique. While Angie torments to achieve her own goals, Julia's guiding purpose is to help Barnabas. She knew that it was wrong to kill Dr. Woodard and didn't want to take part in the affair, but she went through with it anyway for Barnabas's sake. I'm not saying at all that this should excuse her for what she did, but the motives do reflect on the characters.
In sociology class, we recently saw a video about morality, specifically about the stages of morality, and according to my understanding of the definitions of the various levels, here is where I would place each character. I would classify Angelique in the 2nd stage of morality, which consists of a "whatever works for me must be right" philosophy. As I perceive her reasoning, it's all right for Angelique to hurt people and ruin their lives as long as she can gain from it. Julia, on the other hand, tends to make her decisions with Barnabas's welfare in mind. This most resembles 3rd stage morality (concern with disappointing others/authority.)
Again, this is all in my most humble opinion and I don't mean to offend anybody in any way. If my views have disturbed, I apologize.
Respectfully,
ProfStokes
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Is it my imagination, perhaps an aberation, that you are on a crusade against the character Angelique (or the actress that plays the part) for some reason? I can't say a word in reference with out you jumping all over me.
To whom is this addressed VAM? ?!?
I like Angelique's presence as a whole and it was a MAJOR part of the storyline/entire show. . **but** certain elements just don't make sense. . the ending of 1840 just didn't make sense for reasons clearly articulated by Robin and Luciaphil . . it was tacked on last minute and dissatisfied many fans. . .obviously, we're still arguing about it 30 years later! [pain]sheesh!
Also, obviously I am an unapologetic Julia (Grayson Hall) fan but I'm not blind to her eccentricities or shortcomings. . .Julia99 [rollb] [rollb]
ps. glad so many folks responded to my little ole post. .
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didn't it seem that it started for her when Barnabas
choose Josette and dumped her i think if barnabas had come back for her and never wanted josette and she returned to Maine with him as his bride angelique
would have been bored with him in 6 months and would have made a play for his uncle or some other man.just her nature!!
jennifer
also Julia 99 love you picture of Julia very cool!!
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Sorry Julia99, this was not intended for you.
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Is it my imagination, perhaps an aberation, that you are on a crusade against the character Angelique (or the actress that plays the part) for some reason? I can't say a word in reference with out you jumping all over me.
Not sure if you are referring to me or not. If you are, I'm sorry you misinterpreted my remarks. I assure you, I am not on a personal crusade against Ms Parker or Angelique.
I have never met and am not likely to ever meet Ms Parker. There's nothing directed against her in my posting. I don't particularly admire her acting (although, I very much enjoyed her Cassandra) or her writing, but since I am entitled to my personal opinion and since I'm not trying to change your's or anyone else's, I don't see why it should bother you.
As for Angelique. Angelique is a fictional character. I don't like the character much--something that should come as no surprise as I have been hanging around Fran's boards for over two years now and have never been shy about expressing my opinions 8)--but the key word here is "fictional". I like to debate merits of characters and plots, but I fail to understand why it is an affront to you if my opinions don't match with yours.
Luciaphil
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Let's let it go and move on-OK? Life is too short...It was a misunderstanding on my part.
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ProfStokes -- please allow me to point out to everyone what an articulate and intelligent young woman you are. I have always enjoyed your posts, but this one stands out for me particularly. Your arguments are sound and well thought out. Kudos.
Nicky (and it was a pleasure meeting you at the Fest last summer)
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Why, thank you, Nicky! It was wonderful to meet you in person too, and I hope to see you at the next Fest in June.
ProfStokes