DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '03 I => Topic started by: doombuggy69 on June 29, 2003, 04:26:56 PM
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More mysterious tape editing is being done by MPI that I discovered on DVD set #6. One of the all time great bloopers occurs in episode #451. This is where Bathia Mapes is performing the exorcism on Barnabas, and forgets her lines. Off stage a crew member is heard shouting out the line to her. "Then go to the house"...... For some bizarre reason, MPI chose to mute over the sound of the crewman shouting out the line, by inserting a loop of the background music!!! Why is this happening?? I thought these DVD's were unedited, and remastered from the original source material? This classic blooper appears on the 1990 MPI videotapes, Sci Fi channel reruns, and even the MPI Blooper tape!
Why all the altering with these episodes on DVD?
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This is inexcusable! I am SO glad that I have not yet bought any of these DVDs sets. I am going to warn my friends who are considering purchasing these sets to reconsider!
Why edit just one of hundreds of bloopers? Does MPI think that this will make the show more professional, more believable for us? Certainly not more enjoyable! Does MPI think that they are marketing these sets for people who have never seen the original DS and all of its bloopers?
It is clear that someone is asleep at the switch at MPI! This should NOT be happening, ESPECIALLY if there is a DS fan that is now, or has been in the past, employed by MPI. To dismiss glitches caused by DVD production error as original master defects and to meddle with the actual content of the episodes themselves (in this case a blooper) is unforgivable! Apparently, MPI has lost touch with DS fans. Where is Jim Pierson?!!
This is disgusting! [kaiokn]
SDP
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Thats strange. I haven't noticed any bloopers being edited out of the other dvds. Has anyone else?
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Perhaps this was simply the result of an over-achieving audio technician fixing something s/he (being only 19 years old and never having HEARD of DS, its fans, and their penchant for 'bloopers') had no idea was not broken.
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Perhaps this was simply the result of an over-achieving audio technician fixing something s/he (being only 19 years old and never having HEARD of DS, its fans, and their penchant for 'bloopers') had no idea was not broken.
Or perhaps it was done intentionally by the very same person who'd edited several episodes for Sci-Fi's second DS run. Unfortunately, people who've videotaped DS from Sci-Fi during that second showing and beyond rather than buying the MPI tapes do not have the same versions of many episodes because this person decided to edit out glitches in the masters (somewhat understandable) and excise footage and/or add/alter background music cues between act transitions where there are no longer any commercial breaks (which is not so understandable)...
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I cannot believe that MPI would feel the need to alter the episodes in any way! Are there other moments that are missing from the DVD releases?
I've had to put collecting the DVDs on hold, and if MPI is going to make a habit of tampering with the content of the episodes, then I sincerely doubt that I will resume collecting them.
Regards,
John
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As far as I can see, the Bathia Mapes blooper in episode 451, is the only one they tampered with. The rest of the episodes appear untouched. I doubt very much this was done back in 1967, because they would not have had the technology to loop the music over the blooper back then.
I have noticed several instances where ABC did attempt to remove certain lines of dialog when the actors forgot, and called a character by another name. There is one episode from 1897 when Beth accidently calls someone by the wrong name. What ABC did was simply erased the line of dialog from her mouth. The same happened for an episode of 1841 PT, when Morgan calls a character by another name, and the dialog was erased again. Apparently ABC didn't have the ability to loop dialog back then. They were still cutting videotape with razor blades for goodness sake!
This "correction" on the DVD was definately done with today's technology.
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.......They were still cutting videotape with razor blades for goodness sake!
Thank you, doombuggy, for putting it that way. Just in case I was in danger of forgetting EXACTLY how old I am, you reminded me in an instant. You see.....I've actually done just that....cut audio and video tape... in the studio.....with a razor blade. [lghy]
Somebody fetch the old lady her cane, please?
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TBH, I think it's no bad thing that it's been fixed - it really is an all-time low for the series and I can't believe that anyone involved with the show's production would favour the original form. It's sub-standard television, plain and simple. No one's fault, but it doesn't alter that fact.
I've never really been bought by the so-called "charm" of bloopers - in isolation on a compilation tape it's one thing, but within the episodes they're shortcomings which detract seriously. DS did wonders on the resources it had, and seeing something so downright amateur draws attention from those achievements.
I'm not necessarily advocating wholesale tampering, but where seriously bad mistakes like this can be repaired seamlessly, I think it's welcome and makes the show more acceptable for a contemporary audience.
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I cannot believe that MPI would feel the need to alter the episodes in any way!
I can certainly understand why people would get so upset with having some episodes "repaired", as it were. But I would say that it's probably premature to assume that some unknown editor at MPI is the one doing the alterring because that assumption might be in error. As I tried to strongly hint in my post above, in the past these "repairs" have always been traced back to one person. I'm reluctant to mention that person's name in connection with this particular instance because this is the first I've heard of edits on the DVDs and it's certainly not fair to accuse without the slightest bit of proof. But having had this individual's past actions confirmed by impeccable sources, I'd say that very same person would certainly be at the top of my list of suspects...
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TBH, I think it's no bad thing that it's been fixed - it really is an all-time low for the series and I can't believe that anyone involved with the show's production would favour the original form. It's sub-standard television, plain and simple. No one's fault, but it doesn't alter that fact.
I've never really been bought by the so-called "charm" of bloopers - in isolation on a compilation tape it's one thing, but within the episodes they're shortcomings which detract seriously. DS did wonders on the resources it had, and seeing something so downright amateur draws attention from those achievements.
I'm not necessarily advocating wholesale tampering, but where seriously bad mistakes like this can be repaired seamlessly, I think it's welcome and makes the show more acceptable for a contemporary audience.
While I uphold Stuart's right to have and offer his opinion, I feel his arguments of how the editing of these classic episodes can be a "good" thing are weak at best. Just who should have the power to judge whether a mistake is serious and unacceptable or whether it is minor and acceptable?
When asked what the all time low for DS was. different people offer different opinions. Some might answer "The Leviathan storyline" or the "Adam storyline". Others might answer "Kathy Cody's acting" or "the Mrs. Johnson character". Some might say "The cheap special effects.... bat on a string, mis-matched chromakey". Quite a few people have offered their problems with Jonathan Frid's frequent line flubs and glancing at the teleprompter. It just goes to show, as Rosanne Rosannadanna once said "It just goes to show you. You can't please everybody, or anybody from Ft. Lee, New Jersey!"
If we had the power to "fix" the "all-time lows" in Dark Shadows (and I strongly disagree with Stuart's use of these words) it would perhaps be easy to find a place to start. But, where would we end?!! Should we get an actor who sounds like the late Robert Gerringer to dub in audio over the original lines that labeled the yet-to-be-introduced Dr. Hoffman as a "her"? Should we spare no expense to computer generate a believable bat to bite Barnabas in 1795? Should we cut out the entire 1995 flash forward and create a flash forward to 2005?
If MPI's mission was to produce a "more acceptable" show for a "contemporary audience", perhaps all of the above should be done. But, I don't think that this is, or should be, the reason they are producing the DVDs. Nor do I believe that MPI is correcting the bloopers out of respect to "anyone involved with the show's production" as I doubt that these folks make up a sizeable number of the people who are buying the DS DVDs. No, I believe that the folks at MPI are supposed to be producing a CLASSIC CULT SHOW for DEVOTED FANS of that show, who remember it when it was originally run (or as it was run in reruns in the 1980s up till now) and want a TRUE and ACCURATE reproduction of that show, warts and all. Let those who cringe at things they don't like in DS go watch another show that's more to their liking. If people can't see the charm in the bloopers by realizing that the show was done virtually live and that people are human and television production has evolved greatly since the 1960s, if people can't get over this then they shouldn't be bothering with DS at all. To watch DS, you NEED to suspend your disbelief in more ways than one. The far out storylines, the limited sets, the contradictions in the scripts, etc... You also need to suspend your criticism and your need to find fault with things. Sit back and enjoy it for what is was, and still is, not for what it could have been. Save that for things in your life that you can change, more important things than a 37 year-old soap. Not that this 37 year-old soap is not important to me and all of it's thousands of long-time fans. It is important... just as we remember it. And nothing more, or less, would be an acceptable substitute.
Respectfully,
SDP
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I cannot believe that MPI would feel the need to alter the episodes in any way!
I can certainly understand why people would get so upset with having some episodes "repaired", as it were. But I would say that it's probably premature to assume that some unknown editor at MPI is the one doing the alterring because that assumption might be in error. As I tried to strongly hint in my post above, in the past these "repairs" have always been traced back to one person. I'm reluctant to mention that person's name in connection with this particular instance because this is the first I've heard of edits on the DVDs and it's certainly not fair to accuse without the slightest bit of proof. But having had this individual's past actions confirmed by impeccable sources, I'd say that very same person would certainly be at the top of my list of suspects...
Well, where is the MPI Marketing poster? I hope he will soon appear and address our concerns and questions. I truly have to say, if this editing is going to be permitted then my VHS collection will be the only version of DS that I will ever own.
SDP
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I'm glad to hear that MPI has evidently edited out some of the more blatant mistakes for the DVDs. I am one of those people who never understood the so-called charm of bloopers. If MPI has hopes of marketing the show beyond the hard core fans, it needs to provide the best it can be. I don't believe the average fan of television classics would see major bloopers as anything but amatuerish and sloppy. IMO, this has been a stumbling block in marketing and attracting a larger and more diverse audience for the show. I just don't think the majority of viewers would see glaring mistakes as being anything but substandard television. DVDs of other cult TV shows do not include, to my knowledge, major bloopers whether they went out over the air or not.
Nancy
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Stuart's... arguments of how the editing of these classic episodes can be a "good" thing are weak at best...
When asked what the all time low for DS was. different people offer different opinions. Some might answer "The Leviathan storyline" or the "Adam storyline"... "the Mrs. Johnson character".
As I said explicitly in my last post, I'm not advocating wholesale tampering - altering the narrative content of the episodes is something else entirely, as it subverts conscious artistic decisions made by the production team at the time. Mrs Johnson was always written like that, so were the Leviathans - no one sat down in 1968 and decided to write the stage manager a cameo appearance.
If the original script read this, I'd agree with you:
JOSHUA: Yes?
[Old woman gawps into thin air for unfeasible amount of time]
DISEMBODIED NOO YAWKER [OOV]: Then go to the house...
BATHIA: [flash of inspiration] Go to the house of the curse! Blah blah...
Clearly, it's not the intention of anyone concerned that the scene is meant to play like this. The way in which it's been fixed does not compromise the material artistically - no footage is excised and the fix is seamless, so it's sympathetic to the original material. Technically, the episode should never have been broadcast in that state originally - it was substandard then and it's substandard today. And where fixes like this can be made seamlessly with today's technology, and without affecting the duration, they should be. It "sells" the show better to new viewers and allows older ones to enjoy the episodes the way they were intended to be seen. Artistically speaking, can anyone seriously say that the episode is worse for losing a very sad example of an elderly actress being impatiently prompted as she struggles to perform?
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I'm glad to hear that MPI has evidently edited out some of the more blatant mistakes for the DVDs. I am one of those people who never understood the so-called charm of bloopers. If MPI has hopes of marketing the show beyond the hard core fans, it needs to provide the best it can be. I don't believe the average fan of television classics would see major bloopers as anything but amatuerish and sloppy. IMO, this has been a stumbling block in marketing and attracting a larger and more diverse audience for the show. I just don't think the majority of viewers would see glaring mistakes as being anything but substandard television. DVDs of other cult TV shows do not include, to my knowledge, major bloopers whether they went out over the air or not.
Nancy
DS has survived this long with each and every "amatuerish and sloppy" blooper intact. Fans, many of them, look forward to seeing these bloopers. The DS Festival itself posts internet notices of upcoming bloopers to look for on the current Sci Fi episodes. It does not warn fans to look away from the blooper or your opinion of DS will be irreparably damaged. I have never heard of a fan who has become disillusioned with DS because of seeing a blooper.
The PBS stations of the 1980s and the Sci Fi Channel in the 1990s have shown that airing DS uncut, in its original form produces loyal viewers in great numbers. The Festival attendence soars when the show is being currently broadcast and most of those Festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before. Most times that DS is featured on a show like "Entertainment Tonight" or "Extra" the bloopers are mentioned as an integral part of the show. Many of the actors, whether they mean it or not, publicly speak of the bloopers in endearing terms. And the DS blooper tape apparently still sells very well. Perhaps MPI's cutting of classic bloopers will further their sales of the blooper tape (DVD eventually) by allowing them to promote it as "the only place you can see Bathia Mapes go up and other classic bloopers"?
If MPI is attempting to clean these up to attract a "larger and more diverse audience" (which I don't believe), why then did they leave intact the blooper of the DS studio person who was caught in the mausoleum with Barnabas and Angelique? IMO, this was a greater blooper than the off camera line feed to Anita Bolster. Why did they leave in "That night must go nothing wrong"?!! Why leave in the intruding TV camera when Carolyn was reporting Julia's comings and goings to Barnabas? Could not these bloopers have been "fixed" for the DVD releases? Where were the fan complaints about the presence of these bloopers on the VHS tapes and DVDs?
Whether MPI ever does away with the bloopers or not, the simple fact of the matter is that with the continued production of the blooper tape, people will always be aware that these bloopers occured during the actual show itself because they were gleaned from it. No matter how much the people involved with DS wish the bloopers weren't there, they will always be an integral part of it. These folks have every right to be very proud of a classic show that they, together, created. If there are any of them who have not yet gotten over the bloopers or their own stumbling for lines or looking desperately for the teleprompter, they should stop crying over spilt milk and join the fun in appreciating the show for what it was. Perhaps it wasn't on the same level as "All in the Family" or "The Sopranos" but it certainly holds its own special place in TV history. Jonathan Frid once said that DS has now become a part of American folklore. He also said that while more often than not, they fell on their faces (perhaps meaning that bloopers and mis-spoken lines made up a majority of the show?) every once in a while they reached for and found their place in the stars and made TV magic. As a fan, I certainly loved those magic moments. But, also just as endearing were the times when, still trying to reach those stars, they heroically fell like the rest of us fallible human beings.
SDP
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It "sells" the show better to new viewers and allows older ones to enjoy the episodes the way they were intended to be seen. Artistically speaking, can anyone seriously say that the episode is worse for losing a very sad example of an elderly actress being impatiently prompted as she struggles to perform?
I seriously doubt that MPI will be placing a packaging label on the DVD sets proclaiming "Now, with major bloopers and line flubs edited out so that nothing will detract from the dramatic storylines and superb acting ability of the stars of Dark Shadows!" Do you honestly think that they have received complaints from the people who bought the VHS tapes, begging for the bloopers to be edited out? Do you honestly think that the average young person who's never heard of Dark Shadows will hear that Dark Shadows has had its major bloopers edited and suddenly say to himself "Hmmm. No major bloopers. This sounds like a pretty professional show. I think I'll give it a try!"
The simple fact is, a fan started this thread because they noticed that the episode had been tampered with. When MPI promised that the DVD episodes would be remastered from the original source material uncut and intact, I for one hoped that, with their being a reputable company, they would hold to their promise. Your opinion that the glaring bloopers should be cut and my opinion that they should be left intact have little to do with the fact that MPI has not abided by its own previously stated standards.
Respectfully still,
SDP
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I believe that the folks at MPI are supposed to be producing a CLASSIC CULT SHOW for DEVOTED FANS of that show, who remember it when it was originally run (or as it was run in reruns in the 1980s up till now) and want a TRUE and ACCURATE reproduction of that show, warts and all.
SDP
To edit or alter the episodes is not only a form of censorship, but also is tampering with a part of television history.
Bob
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Selby,
You are talking about those who are already fans of the show, many from the original run, and not a newer generation of people who are accustomed to higher production values that are seen on the air. People in their 20s do not have a memory of "live" TV and I suspect their experience of it and its bloopers is limited. Those who rent DVDs out of curiousity may see a dilly or two of a blooper and wonder what they are in for elsewhere. If I saw some of the more blatant gaffes and bloopers for the first time frankly I would not pursue watching it. Much of my theory about why MPI is editing some of the more blatant gaffes is because I have known people who started to watch DS because their parents did, but found some gaffes too distracting to bother watching anymore. Some people enjoy the feel of live television and errors don't bother them, others don't. I seriously doubt fans of DS are going to stop buying the DVDs because some bloopers aren't on there.
The PBS stations of the 1980s and the Sci Fi Channel in the 1990s have shown that airing DS uncut, in its original form produces loyal viewers in great numbers. The Festival attendence soars when the show is being currently broadcast and most of those Festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before. Most times that DS is featured on a show like "Entertainment Tonight" or "Extra" the bloopers are mentioned as an integral part of the show.
The bloopers were mentioned as being part of the production by the nature of how the show was done. That's very different than being viewed as an "integral" part of a show. You say "most of those festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before." I'm confused - why were they at a festival for a show they had not yet seen? Did you mean this in some other way?
Many of the actors, whether they mean it or not, publicly speak of the bloopers in endearing terms.
I have heard the actors describe the bloopers as embarrassing and while they just deal with the reality that their mistakes survive on tape, several have stated they don't get why fans look for bloopers. Louis Edmonds and Jonathan Frid are two actors that immediately come to mind as having made this point.
And the DS blooper tape apparently still sells very well. Perhaps MPI's cutting of classic bloopers will further their sales of the blooper tape (DVD eventually) by allowing them to promote it as "the only place you can see Bathia Mapes go up and other classic bloopers"?
Outtake tapes tend to sell very well, and I buy them. However, you will note that the outtakes you see on such tapes aren't actually seen in the program/show in question. I don't want to see them on the actual show.
If MPI is attempting to clean these up to attract a "larger and more diverse audience" (which I don't believe), why then did they leave intact the blooper of the DS studio person who was caught in the mausoleum with Barnabas and Angelique? IMO, this was a greater blooper than the off camera line feed to Anita Bolster. Why did they leave in "That night must go nothing wrong"?!! Why leave in the intruding TV camera when Carolyn was reporting Julia's comings and goings to Barnabas? Could not these bloopers have been "fixed" for the DVD releases?
No. And the reason for that is that fixing lines that an actor trips over and people/camera in a scene is far more difficult to edit and would probably call more attention to the flub or error if done. It is far easier to dub over or cut out something like an offstage voice saying something when there is otherwise silence than to edit dialogue where a word or two is juxtapositioned. Covering a camera on the screen or a crew person on screen when there is a scene going on is extremely difficult.
Where were the fan complaints about the presence of these bloopers on the VHS tapes and DVDs?
As you have pointed out, the bloopers are a reality because that is how the show aired and was taped. Fans have indeed found fault with the muffed lines and other gaffes claiming it to be distracting. But there would be little point writing to Dan Curtis after the fact complaining about the presence of the bloopers. But put the show on a major network now day or evening and see what would be said about the bloopers.
Whether MPI ever does away with the bloopers or not, the simple fact of the matter is that with the continued production of the blooper tape, people will always be aware that these bloopers occured during the actual show itself because they were gleaned from it.
Bloopers and outtakes are a reality of every single TV show there is or was. I don't think anyone believes something as involved as a TV show (or any kind of production) happens without any miscues or mistakes. That doesn't even happen at work, certainly not in my job!!
No matter how much the people involved with DS wish the bloopers weren't there, they will always be an integral part of it. These folks have every right to be very proud of a classic show that they, together, created. If there are any of them who have not yet gotten over the bloopers or their own stumbling for lines or looking desperately for the teleprompter, they should stop crying over spilt milk and join the fun in appreciating the show for what it was.
I believe every fan or every actor should be entitled to remember the show as they wish, and not be told how they should remember it or view their own work. I don't get the intense interest over bloopers or why anyone would devote any amount of time actually looking for them but if that is what someone wants to do because h/she enjoys it, that's up to the individual if it rocks h/her boat.. It's easy to tell an actor who might wince or object to seeing his or her mistakes over and over again to just get over it because it's not your mistake and it's not your work that's made fun of.
Perhaps it wasn't on the same level as "All in the Family" or "The Sopranos" but it certainly holds its own special place in TV history. Jonathan Frid once said that DS has now become a part of American folklore. He also said that while more often than not, they fell on their faces (perhaps meaning that bloopers and mis-spoken lines made up a majority of the show?) every once in a while they reached for and found their place in the stars and made TV magic. As a fan, I certainly loved those magic moments. But, also just as endearing were the times when, still trying to reach those stars, they heroically fell like the rest of us fallible human beings.
I watched the show during the original run and the bloopers went over my head. I just went passed them. It was the character of Barnabas, Roger and others that reminded me about the fallibility of human beings. That's why I watched the show - to see these flawed people try to overcome the obstacles they faced.
I'm still glad MPI is editing out the bloopers where they are able to. Those who feel cheated can buy the Blooper tape which is still available. That way, everyone is happy. :D
Nancy
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To edit (after the fact) or not to edit? I'm not going to take sides in this debate, but I think what it really shows after all these years is that DC was a bit remiss in his duties on several occasions.
We've all heard how ruinously expensive it was to edit video back then, but I seriously doubt that a snip here or there, say once a month, would've caused too much damage to the budget. I think the simple fact was that TPTB (DCP) were just not terribly interested or concerned about "trivial" matters such as these.
I think DC took the "actors as cattle" viewpoint and didn't care too much about flubs and that sort of thing. Which is pretty disrespectful, if you ask me.
I like a good blooper now and then - "incestors", Quentin's sword thing, Barn walking through the set carrying his streeet clothes - but stuff like someone having to be prompted off-stage and the star of the show caught picking his nose are just inexcusable. I just don't see how it would have hurt them to simply edit those out *the day they were shot*.
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I think it's also useful to remember that no matter how 'proprietary' we feel about this show we all love, we do NOT, in fact, own it. And if those who actually DO own it choose to allow it to be edited they are entirely within their rights to do so. We might hate it AND them....but to imply it is censorship is out of line. That's like implying I should have no right to correct my frequently demented spelling on this forum, because other members might find it amusing.
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...but to imply it is censorship is out of line
Censorship as defined in my Webster's states ; "to examine books, letters, movies, etc. and remove or hold back ANYTHING thought not right for people to see or hear."
Also, I did not, as you wrote " imply" it was censorship, I most surely stated it. ;)
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You say "most of those festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before." I'm confused - why were they at a festival for a show they had not yet seen? Did you mean this in some other way?
To clarify, many having never seen the show until fairly recently, i.e. on Sci Fi or on the videotapes. A new generation of DS fans, as it were. Many are introduced to DS by their parents, older relatives or friends. At each Festival, during her first presentation on stage, Kathryn Leigh Scott asks the audience for a show of hands for first time Festival attendees. Usually, it is at least half of the audience. This is most likely done to assure that fans both old and new are discovering DS by way of the tapes, Sci Fi, and/or DS related books.
I have heard the actors describe the bloopers as embarrassing and while they just deal with the reality that their mistakes survive on tape, several have stated they don't get why fans look for bloopers. Louis Edmonds and Jonathan Frid are two actors that immediately come to mind as having made this point.
And this is one difference between fans and the DS actors. With all due respect, apparently you try to fit in somewhere in between.
I'm still glad MPI is editing out the bloopers where they are able to. Those who feel cheated can buy the Blooper tape which is still available. That way, everyone is happy.
Why, how wise of you! Your middle name must be Solomon! ;)
I just don't get your argument. How can removing only a handful of bloopers (and not even the worst ones but the ones that are EASY to remove, as you stated) from hundreds of them make the show more enjoyable for new fans?
Still, our speculation does not alter the fact that MPI initially stated that the DVDs would be mastered from the original sources, uncut and intact. We've not heard from MPI Marketing regarding this change in policy. I'd like to see their statement regarding this issue before I reply any further.
SDP
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>>You say "most of those festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before." I'm confused - why were they at a festival for a show they had not yet seen? Did you mean this in some other way?<<
Selby_D._Pearson wrote:To clarify, many having never seen the show until fairly recently, i.e. on Sci Fi or on the videotapes. A new generation of DS fans, as it were. Many are introduced to DS by their parents, older relatives or friends. At each Festival, during her first presentation on stage, Kathryn Leigh Scott asks the audience for a show of hands for first time Festival attendees. Usually, it is at least half of the audience. This is most likely done to assure that fans both old and new are discovering DS by way of the tapes, Sci Fi, and/or DS related books.
Asking for a show of hands for first time attendees is standard practice at many annual gatherings. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell short of taking a survey how the fans who raised their hands first discovered the show, are spouses of fans but have no interest in show (but it's their first time there), etc.
>>I have heard the actors describe the bloopers as embarrassing and while they just deal with the reality that their mistakes survive on tape, several have stated they don't get why fans look for bloopers. Louis Edmonds and Jonathan Frid are two actors that immediately come to mind as having made this point. <<
Selby_D._Pearson wrote:
And this is one difference between fans and the DS actors. With all due respect, apparently you try to fit in somewhere in between.
No, not trying to fit in anywhere. I've worked as a professional actor and I have heard all points of view about the bloopers, including those statements made by the actors. I understand their point even easier since I don't get the fascination with looking for bloopers. But, to each his own. They have the right to feel as they do about their own work. ;D You mentioned that some of the actors said the bloopers were endearing and I just pointed out two key actors who disagree. One who made many bloopers and one who hardly made any (and recovered nicely when he did). I don't think any of the actors should alter their view of bloopers to suit the sensibilities of fans. It's their work.
>>I'm still glad MPI is editing out the bloopers where they are able to. Those who feel cheated can buy the Blooper tape which is still available. That way, everyone is happy.<<
Selby_D._Pearson wrote:Why, how wise of you! Your middle name must be Solomon! ;)
Yeah! And I can discuss without being sarcastic too. I must be really, really wise. ;)
Selby_D._Pearson wrote:I just don?t get your argument. How can removing only a handful of bloopers (and not even the worst ones but the ones that are EASY to remove, as you stated) from hundreds of them make the show more enjoyable for new fans?
You will have to wait and see if MPI answers since they are the ones who are doing the editing. I was guessing at their reasoning which was much of the discussion on the rest of the thread. I think the Bathia Mapes blooper was one of the all time worst though I admit to not knowing all the bloopers on the series. To have a voice of someone not even a cast member . . ugh! I would delete that one myself.
Nancy
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Please, let us all remember to keep this discussion civil and nonpersonal. Emoticons do not erase, ease, or justify sarcasm.
Thanks,
dom
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Considering that the DVDs are supposed to contain the original, uncut episodes, any sort of alteration is unacceptable. I can understand why some would believe that DS would have a wider appeal without the bloopers--certainly the show is unfairly dismissed by many because of the bloopers--but the show has managed to maintain a level of popularity since its cancellation with the bloopers firmly intact.
Personally, I love the bloopers and feel that they are an integral part of the DS legacy. Rather than distracting from the series, I find that they enhance it, by serving as a reminder of the enormous pressure that the cast and crew were under. I never fail to be impressed by the players' ability to exhibit grace under pressure, handling whatever mishaps befell them and managing to maintain the dramatic intensity of the scene. The bloopers were a natural by-product of the live-on-tape format, and their presence enhances the excitement of watching DS. Anything could happen, and it often did.
I'm not a fan of the school of thought that endorses the updating of so-called outdated works in order to enhance their appeal to contemporary audiences. Whether it's Ted Turner colorizing black-and-white films, or George Lucas "improving" the original STAR WARS trilogy, I feel that art is both a product and a reflection of its time, and must be preserved in its original form. Granted, we are discussing mistakes--moments that should not have happened in the first place. However, as I stated earlier, these moments are a reflection of the way the show was produced, and the period in which it was produced. They happened and, for better or for worse, are part of the DS legend.
Regards,
John
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To All Dark Shadows Fans:
The deleted blooper in DVD Collection 6 is an isolated error and was not edited out intentionally on MPI's part as we are committed to presenting the series as it originally aired. All previous MPI "Dark Shadows" DVDs have presented the episodes complete and that is our goal for each release in the future.
We have discovered that the new master supplied to us for the episode in question was edited without authorization by the video and audio restoration facility that has remastered the original episodes into digitial format to preserve them for the program's owner, Dan Curtis Productions.
Every step will be taken to prevent this oversight from happening again. Although no dialogue was edited out of the episode in question, we want to preserve the integrity of "Dark Shadows," which means keeping in all the mistakes that are part of the show's charm and appeal.
Additionally, the missing blooper will be seen on MPI's DVD release of "Dark Shadows Bloopers" in the coming year, along with other surprises.
Thank you for your interest and understanding.
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Thank you for your interest and understanding.
And thank you for responding to what had obviously become a hotly contested issue. :)
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You are talking about those who are already fans of the show, many from the original run, and not a newer generation of people who are accustomed to higher production values that are seen on the air. People in their 20s do not have a memory of "live" TV and I suspect their experience of it and its bloopers is limited...Some people enjoy the feel of live television and errors don't bother them, others don't.
Speaking as one of the newer generations of fans, I have to say the bloopers actually make me more impressed with the show for much of the same reasons that ClaudeNorth has mentioned. These actors faced a hefty share of adversity in filming the series, but when gaffes happened, they just kept going, day after day, week after week for five years. Never mind the production values--that perseverance is professionalism enough!
Personally, I've never been too dazzled by modern special effects. Apparently these are supposed to appeal to the viewers because they're so state of the art and they do seem to draw crowds to the box office, but rather than enhancing the viewing experience, I find that they distract me from the movie even further because they look so out of place. For instance, a friend of mine recently raved to me about seeing Hulk. I've only seen the commercials on TV, but when he asked me what I thought of it, I replied that the Hulk looked like a cartoon character. "What's wrong with that?" he demanded. "Well, it's difficult to focus on a movie when your main character is obviously fake." These new CGI creations are supposed to be so lifelike but when I see them, all I can think of is Who Framed Roger Rabbit? I don't want to see a computerized cutout, I want to see somebody who can act. Meanwhile, I still ooh and ahh over 1933's The Invisible Man...
Although I own and enjoy the blooper tape, I have more fun watching the show and catching the mishaps as they occur. This way, I'm not expecting them and I can laugh that much more because they take me by surprise. When I watch a blooper tape, I know that I'm waiting for something to go wrong and the freshness is lost.
The Bathia Mapes blooper is my favorite of them all and I was very sorry to learn that it had been omitted from the DVD. I first saw this incident several years ago while watching my tape of the episode as it aired on the Sci-Fi Channel. I can remember bolting upright in astonishment when the blooper happened and then calling in both my father and mother, who don't watch to the show, to come and see what had happened. I replayed the scene and we all shared a good laugh. It was a fond family moment. To this day, if a newscaster is staring blankly at the camera, unaware of being on the air, I yell at him or her to "Go to the house of the curse." It's a fun and pervasive little joke and I'm not the only one who gets a kick out of it.
Dark Shadows is a product of its times and different aspects of it appeal to different people; we just have to accept it as is, for better or worse. As for the blooper in question, I'm relieved to see that the edit wasn't intentional and I hope that the mistaken 'correction' can somehow be fixed in future DVD releases.
ProfStokes
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Thanks for the prompt answer to the question! Shot my theory to hell, didn't it???? ::) Now we know.
Nancy
To All Dark Shadows Fans:
The deleted blooper in DVD Collection 6 is an isolated error and was not edited out intentionally on MPI's part as we are committed to presenting the series as it originally aired. All previous MPI "Dark Shadows" DVDs have presented the episodes complete and that is our goal for each release in the future.
We have discovered that the new master supplied to us for the episode in question was edited without authorization by the video and audio restoration facility that has remastered the original episodes into digitial format to preserve them for the program's owner, Dan Curtis Productions.
Every step will be taken to prevent this oversight from happening again. Although no dialogue was edited out of the episode in question, we want to preserve the integrity of "Dark Shadows," which means keeping in all the mistakes that are part of the show's charm and appeal.
Additionally, the missing blooper will be seen on MPI's DVD release of "Dark Shadows Bloopers" in the coming year, along with other surprises.
Thank you for your interest and understanding.
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What about the Victoria Winters reference in the Leviathan storyline? I know that no one would want to see "altered episodes" where a new actor supplies a voice for Paul Stoddard's ghost (as opposed to Peter Bradford) while they used some computer generated image of a faceless ghost.
But what if, when they get to this storyline, they do something like that and still keep the original episodes on the same DVD. they let the consumer be able to decide which version he/she wants to see- Peter Bradford's ghost or Paul Stoddard's ghost. You can see the altered or the original version....do you think that could be a good idea?
Joey
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You can see the altered or the original version....do you think that could be a good idea?
Well, as much as I'd love to see that happen (for just SOOOO many reasons [b003]), I'm afraid I'd stand with the fans who feel that nothing about the episodes should ever be alterred in any way - even if MPI were to make both versions available. No matter how much we may dislike a particular plot twist, one just can't go around messing with DS canon...
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Every step will be taken to prevent this oversight from happening again. Although no dialogue was edited out of the episode in question, we want to preserve the integrity of "Dark Shadows," which means keeping in all the mistakes that are part of the show's charm and appeal.
Thank you for the clarification!
Perhaps MPI's cutting of classic bloopers will further their sales of the blooper tape (DVD eventually) by allowing them to promote it as "the only place you can see Bathia Mapes go up and other classic bloopers"?
Additionally, the missing blooper will be seen on MPI's DVD release of "Dark Shadows Bloopers" in the coming year, along with other surprises.
I just KNEW it! [9391]
SDP
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To All Dark Shadows Fans:
Additionally, the missing blooper will be seen on MPI's DVD release of "Dark Shadows Bloopers" in the coming year, along with other surprises.
Other surprises!? Wow, I wonder what they could be? How exciting! I can't wait to hear what they are. Looks like we won't have too long a wait. I hope it's something totally unfamiliar to us all. I'll buy that DVD. I'm gonna stick with my VHS tapes for now. I'll start buying DS DVDs when they release the pre-Barn eps.
dom
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along with other surprises.
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would enjoy seeing Donnie B's cigarette and soap commercials. ;)
Actually, a collection of commercials featuring the DS stars would be a total blast. I believe Nancy Barrett did one for Gillette, and I would love to see Grayson's Playtex ad.
Regards,
John
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You are talking about those who are already fans of the show, many from the original run, and not a newer generation of people who are accustomed to higher production values that are seen on the air. People in their 20s do not have a memory of "live" TV and I suspect their experience of it and its bloopers is limited.
FWIW, I'm too young to have ever experienced live TV and was not even a gleam in my parents' eyes when DS first aired. I saw and enjoyed DS bloopers and all. I don't think I'm alone.
There have been a lot of movies and TV shows made on a shoestring that still manage to attract new fans despite (or perhaps because of low production errors).
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Actually, a collection of commercials featuring the DS stars would be a total blast.
That would be fantastic. I remember Jerry Lacey (Lacy?) in a commercial back then. I think it was a deordorant commercial. He was immitating Bogey.
dom
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I believe Nancy Barrett did one for Gillette
That was a great ad. Nancy, dressed in a blue peignoir, coming down a stone staircase in some castle, while we hear these terrible grunts and groans behind a huge oak door. She stops in front of the door to talk to the "beast" inside, who ends up to be not so beastly after his shave. [wink2] I'm pretty sure it ran back in '68 because I remember seeing it for the first time during The Big Valley.
and I would love to see Grayson's Playtex ad
That one is just too priceless. After Grayson gets through snapping almost every bit of elastic on that bra, it's a wonder (no pun intended ;)) that the form it's displayed on is still standing in and in one piece! [lghy]
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And where fixes like this can be made seamlessly with today's technology, and without affecting the duration, they should be. It "sells" the show better to new viewers and allows older ones to enjoy the episodes the way they were intended to be seen.
I think the idea that the series can be 'cleaned up' to be made more marketable to a broader audience is debatable. As has already been pointed out, extensive repair work would have to be done throughout, and some things such as the sets and props, simply will never look any better than they already do.
On the other hand, I myself have brought the show to the attention of new viewers who had no qualms about the production quality because they became absorbed in the story line. This is the opposite of the way most TV shows work today where flash is more important than substance and looks take priority over storytelling. Many have likened watching DS to watching a live play. It is a refreshing change from anything you can see on TV today, and a welcome one.
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I personally find the bloopers "charming," but that's not the point. DS was the most ambitious program of its time, from its acting, production, and technical aspects. The action was shot live-on-tape, meaning that everything we see was essentially live. Actors were learning a script a day, shooting it once, then moving on to the next one. Special effects were attempted using technology that was cutting edge then, primitive now.
Unlike most contemporary shows, which have the luxury of being shot and reshot to perfection (and often sterility), DS is THEATER. I can enjoy the show on many levels -- following the imaginative storylines, watching how the actors handle the unexpected (often a real test of acting), studying how a special effect was attempted, listening to the musical score, and then just enjoying the bloopers (or Kathy Cody or Donna McKechnie whining, not necessarily in that order).
Given its time and relatively limited budget, DS was a huge accomplishment. The only way the viewer -- old or new -- can appreciate what DS was all about is to see the show -- brilliance, warts, and all.
Ben
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Unlike most contemporary shows, which have the luxury of being shot and reshot to perfection (and often sterility). . .Given its time and relatively limited budget, DS was a huge accomplishment. The only way the viewer -- old or new -- can appreciate what DS was all about is to see the show -- brilliance, warts, and all.
Ben
WHAT HE SAID!!! ;D
(That means I agree.)
Brian
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Just speaking up against any kind of altering of the episodes. Just starting on this could open up a real can of worms.
What would be eliminated next? Roger's line about incestors, such a clever and unintended reference to the Laura storyline? The fly landing on Barnabas' nose as he's informing Julia that she is going to die? Quentin bumping his head on the door to the kitchen? Greggie Trask, Minerva and Judith rushing past exorcising warlock Evan Handley as Trask lets flie the mumbled exclamation, "Jesus!"?
Good luck to the MPI technical dept for keeping track of further "improvements" of this type. Frankly, only a diehard fan would be able to recognize this sort of thing when going through the tapes. Even I have less than perfect familiarity with some weeks of the show, and there are whole swatches of 1966-67 that I've still not seen.
G.
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The way in which it's been fixed does not compromise the material artistically - no footage is excised and the fix is seamless, so it's sympathetic to the original material. Technically, the episode should never have been broadcast in that state originally - it was substandard then and it's substandard today. And where fixes like this can be made seamlessly with today's technology, and without affecting the duration, they should be.
Oh, no. I can't go along with this. I know I'm three years late, but what the hell.
When you are revising and tampering a show of this age, what you're doing is beyond the measure of artistic merit - you are altering an historical document. No one is blind-buying this series six sets in. If they're getting Vol 6, they've happily sat through MANY screw ups on this show, and I dare say a hefty portion of the buying audience is looking forward to them. Did the mad slasher feel that this one blooper would put casual viewers over the edge?
It "sells" the show better to new viewers and allows older ones to enjoy the episodes the way they were intended to be seen.
The first part of that statement isn't valid, for the reasons I stated: No "new" viewer is going to get upset at a foul-up found $250 into the series. (And even if the sales of this set weren't predicated on the sales of its predecessors, how would cutting the glitch increase sales? Is it promoted on the box? They've already bought the set by the time the fanciful recut is even (not) heard). The second part of that statement is scary, Lucas-speak. That way lies Greedo shooting first.
No extra profit, no matter how you slice it. This was cut as a point of embarrassment/pride for someone...
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Yeah, sorry about that. Got a bit overexcited. Glad this was resolved.
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an historical document.
Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away, a gallant band of Thermians is building a replica of Collinwood. Heaven help them!
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Golly, many thanks to Housefly Cameo for bringing this to my attention again. If I do get that particular DVD set, I'll be sure to hold onto the VHS of Bathia's episodes. Those are among my top favorites of the series.
btw, Anita Bolster had a small role in the Woman in White--the 1940s version with fabulous Sydney Greenstreet (an inspiration, I always feel, for our beloved Thayer), in one of his finest roles as the sinister Count Fosco, and a minor but extraordinary role for the Divine Agnes Moorehead. Anita only had a few lines but the eyes, the voice, the stance were all there. Long live Bathia!
G.