DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '03 I => Topic started by: TERRY308 on June 16, 2003, 05:42:41 PM
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I really don't like PT and I'll tell you why. I don't like the characters. I like the people though. Example:
Carolyn and "Will". Will spends his time at "The Eagle", or, when she was alive, at Angelique's haunts. And, he sorta tells Carolyn what to do and when they're going to do it. The Willie I knew and loved was this "please don't beat me" guy. And Carolyn, oh Carolyn. What have you done to yourself? The Carolyn I knew and love was not in any way, shape or form be told what to do by a man. Period.
And that brings us to...Hoffman. Has anybody noticed that her character is a bit giddy about Angelique? When I was little, my mother used to watch old movies, she still does, but that's not the point. I remember that she watched "Rebecca". The story was alot like DS-PT. The beautiful wife had died, all the man where going to see her, when she was alive, her husband had gone off to "forget" about her. He comes back with a new wife, who is afraid of her shadow. And there was a housekeeper. Named.... . Danvers. There's a scene in the movie where Mrs. Danver is showing Mrs. DeWinter, Rebecca's nightgown, that was hand made by nuns. And Mrs. Danvers is giddy, especially when she (Mrs. Danvers) says "Look. You can see right through it". Meaning the nightgown.
I would have to give Ms. Grayson Hall an Oscar for this part. But that's the only one.
Anyway...Barnabas is locked in that coffin, Liz and Roger must depend on Quentin for there "allowence", Chris is a lawyer and Brono back in town.
I know alot of you will say 'they're suppose to, that's acting'. Your are probably right.....but I still don't like it. [bawling2]
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I understand the purpose of driving Maggie Evans away was to get her up to Tarrytown with the rest of the movie personnel.....but did they have to make her behave like such a ninny? "Rebecca" be damned.....what wife in her right mind would put up with Hoffmann's crap? I'd have booted that woman's keister off the estate so fast she wouldn't have had time to pack her knickers.
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You summed up my problem with this plot, Terry308. I just don't have anyone to give a damn about. Plus, I've never liked the young and stupid brand of heroine so hardly rooting for the second Mrs. Collins there or her remarkably idiotic husband (in my book, discussion about previous spouses should be de rigeur) :)
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I really don't like PT and I'll tell you why. I don't like the characters. I like the people though. Example:
And that brings us to...Hoffman. Has anybody noticed that her character is a bit giddy about Angelique? When I was little, my mother used to watch old movies, she still does, but that's not the point. I remember that she watched "Rebecca". The story was alot like DS-PT. The beautiful wife had died, all the man where going to see her, when she was alive, her husband had gone off to "forget" about her. He comes back with a new wife, who is afraid of her shadow. And there was a housekeeper. Named.... . Danvers. There's a scene in the movie where Mrs. Danver is showing Mrs. DeWinter, Rebecca's nightgown, that was hand made by nuns. And Mrs. Danvers is giddy, especially when she (Mrs. Danvers) says "Look. You can see right through it". Meaning the nightgown.
I would have to give Ms. Grayson Hall an Oscar for this part. But that's the only one.
always loved this scene in the movie but always wanted to know WHAT NUNS MAKE SEE THROUGH UNDERWEAR!
Anyway...Barnabas is locked in that coffin, Liz and Roger must depend on Quentin for there "allowence", Chris is a lawyer and Brono back in town.
this never made sense to me suppose to be your counterpart
in PT so Quentin's belongs in 1897 or did Jamison this time have a son named Quentin?
I know alot of you will say 'they're suppose to, that's acting'. Your are probably right.....but I still don't like it. [bawling2]
good thoughts i had a hard time with[spoiler]The Angelique/Alexis
thing and Quentin's boorish behavior[/spoiler]
jennifer
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Common sense would sorta dictate that the PT Maggie be a bit crustier than the NT Maggie. After all, she wasn't just some governess - she lived in places like New York City and Europe, hardly the places where ninny, hapless victims are able to survive. I can see her saying to Hoffman like: "Look, lady. I've dealt with Central Park muggers, and women trying to push their way into line at the food automat when they weren't in the best of moods after all the Pierre Cardin items on the sale's table at Bloomingdales were already snatched away, and believe you me, between the muggers and the frustrated Bloomingdale shoppers, I don't know which one is worse. And I've had to put up with British housecleaners who think that just because they come in once a week to dust they think they own the place, and once I had to spend two hours stuck in a bus during a traffic jam in Rome filled to the hilts with Italian nuns with umbrellas. And I'm still here, ain't I? So don't get - ahem - "crusty" with me, or the next people you'll be waiting on is a table full of truck drivers at the Stuckey's out on Maine Route #43. You got that? Good. Now send in Daniel. Time for him to have another attitude adjustment. I don't care if he is crying and hiding behind the grandfather clock. Mommy's not here anymore. Step-mommy is."
Gerard
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Brilliant, Gerard....absolutely laugh out loud brilliant....Maggie Evans as Upper East Side, nanny-slapping trophy-wife. Now THAT would have been interesting. :D
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Oh Gerard, that would've been too much fun . .Cat fight at Collinwood!!
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I don't know why, but it bugs me in PT that Liz is not the mistress of Collinwood. I actually like the Jekyll/Hyde story, the character of Alexis, and daddy dearest Timothy Stokes, even though I could have done without Roxanne. Aunt Hannah is also a good character. For some other unfathomable reason I just don't like Julia in the role of a domestic. I agree if Maggie had a spine the story could have been more effective, but that seems to be the way soaps were back then - remember pure, blonde Alice on Another World who was always being stepped on by evil, ,black-haired Rachel.
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I like the concept of parallel time if not the execution. Luciaphil remarked in one of her "Idle Thoughts" she found it hard to believe the PT counterparts found themselves where they were because they had made different decisions in life. But it may not have been the decisions they made differently, it may have been the decisions Barnabas made differently which changed history.
According to "The Life and Death of Barnabas Collins," in PT Barnabas married Josette like he was supposed to. They had children and he died (presumably) of natural causes in 1830. Would Collinwood then have been passed down thru Barnabas' descendants, rather than Daniel's? This would explain why Elizabeth and Roger no longer own Collinwood.
I also noticed how Liz remarked that she once had "plenty" of money and should never have let Roger handle the finances. In RT Roger did, in fact, squandor his share of the family fortune, but Liz picked up the slack and saved the family business.
What happened to Paul Stoddard in Parallel Time? Was there ever a Victoria Winters? A Mrs. Johnson? Is Dr. Eric Lang still alive and well?
So many unanswered, intriguing questions, unanswered and unaddressed, in favor of a poorly written Rebecca knock-off, not to mention the Dr. Jekyl/Mr Hyde nonsense.
At any rate, it occurs to me that PT is actually the way history was meant to be, whereas RT is actually the unfortunate parallel world of unfortunate choices. Barnabas married Josette as he was meant to and history played itself out "correctly." Notice how much more colorful PT is than RT - colorful flowers on the table, the East Wing open and full of life and light, compared to the dark and closed off world of RT.
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Even this PT Collinwood might not be the way things should be. Even after Barnabas died, there are other places in the Collins' history which could have caused more alternate universes. Like ... in the present, there is yet another PT Collinwood and Angelique did not die. :o :o ;)
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According to "The Life and Death of Barnabas Collins," in PT Barnabas married Josette like he was supposed to. They had children and he died (presumably) of natural causes in 1830. Would Collinwood then have been passed down thru Barnabas' descendants, rather than Daniel's? This would explain why Elizabeth and Roger no longer own Collinwood.
I also noticed how Liz remarked that she once had "plenty" of money and should never have let Roger handle the finances. In RT Roger did, in fact, squandor his share of the family fortune, but Liz picked up the slack and saved the family business.So many unanswered, intriguing questions, unanswered and unaddressed, in favor of a poorly written Rebecca knock-off, not to mention the Dr. Jekyl/Mr Hyde nonsense.
You're way ahead of me, Dr. Lang. That's what I was thinking about. [spoiler]Now, we know from the PT1841 story that Barnabas was pretty much ejected from the family for marrying Josette. Several years back, we debated if the reason would've been that Josette was a Roman Catholic, something unthinkable to a staunch, New England Protestant family. So that might explain why the family inheritance was not passed through him. Of course, that would leave Sarah, or even Jeremiah, not to mention Daniel Collins, the cousin of Joshua. But let's leave that for now.[/spoiler] Let's move to PT1897. I'm surmising that somehow Quentin Collins of that time became the main heir (I'm taking it for granted that that Quentin proved to be a more stable person, who remained married to Jenny, and impressed Edith), although his other siblings got a decent chunk of moola. Therefore, this Quentin, the great-grandson of the main heir, would be the contemporary one, while cousins Elizabeth and Roger, descended from Jamison, got a decent chunk, but like Elizabeth said, Roger blew it when it came to managing their money.
Gerard
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Everyone complains about Maggie in this story, but don't forget, they are basing it on Rebecca. She's supposed to be mousy and timid and actually, given the life she's led, does show more spark than that. And, Quentin is supposed to fly off the handle over any suggestion of anything concerning Angelique. Sometimes in this story it doesn't always seem to make sense, but just picture it as Rebecca.
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Everyone complains about Maggie in this story, but don't forget, they are basing it on Rebecca. She's supposed to be mousy and timid and actually, given the life she's led, does show more spark than that. And, Quentin is supposed to fly off the handle over any suggestion of anything concerning Angelique. Sometimes in this story it doesn't always seem to make sense, but just picture it as Rebecca.
The 2nd Mrs. DeWinter was shy but brave. Maxim was older, aristocratic, also mysterious and moody, and as the story progressed became increasingly withdrawn. PT Maggie, on the other hand, deals with nearly every situation by running from the room crying. And PT Quentin is a brute who, at one of his lowest points, orders his wife to her room as if doling out a timeout to a child. I find their scenes together very nearly intolerable.
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Everyone complains about Maggie in this story, but don't forget, they are basing it on Rebecca. She's supposed to be mousy and timid and actually, given the life she's led, does show more spark than that. And, Quentin is supposed to fly off the handle over any suggestion of anything concerning Angelique. Sometimes in this story it doesn't always seem to make sense, but just picture it as Rebecca.
The 2nd Mrs. DeWinter was shy but brave. Maxim was older, aristocratic, also mysterious and moody, and as the story progressed became increasingly withdrawn. PT Maggie, on the other hand, deals with nearly every situation by running from the room crying. And PT Quentin is a brute who, at one of his lowest points, orders his wife to her room as if doling out a timeout to a child. I find their scenes together very nearly intolerable.
Can't agree with you more, Midnite. If I were Maggie, I would have walked out after the champagne and cold crabmeat incident then would have insisted that Hoffman be sacked before I would come back.
I find Dr. Eric Lang and Gerards comments very intriguing. However,[spoiler]I don't know that it is a given that Barnabas inherits automatically. Jeremiah co-owned the shipyards with his brother Joshua. If Jeremiah had children and they inherited his portion, they may have bought the cash poor widow off. Barnabas' heirs would have had nothing. There is too much left unknown about PT Barnabas[/spoiler]
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Let's move to PT1897. I'm surmising that somehow Quentin Collins of that time became the main heir (I'm taking it for granted that that Quentin proved to be a more stable person, who remained married to Jenny, and impressed Edith), although his other siblings got a decent chunk of moola. Therefore, this Quentin, the great-grandson of the main heir, would be the contemporary one, while cousins Elizabeth and Roger, descended from Jamison, got a decent chunk, but like Elizabeth said, Roger blew it when it came to managing their money.
If we assume 1841 PT is the same PT as 1970PT, we find Justin and Flora in charge of Collinwood rather than Daniel. It's possible that if Jeremiah had lived, Joshua may have convinced him to marry Millicent. Jeremiah, Millicent and Daniel may have left Collinsport altogether. Perhaps in PT Joshua suffered financial losses and had to be bailed out by cousin Justin, who eventually inherited Collinwood for his own descendents, one of which was PT 1841 Quentin - this could be the ancestor of PT 1970 Quentin. Daniel's descendents, Liz and Roger, may have eventually returned to Collinsport looking for a handout from their rich relative, and found a place to live with him.
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Everyone complains about Maggie in this story, but don't forget, they are basing it on Rebecca. She's supposed to be mousy and timid and actually, given the life she's led, does show more spark than that. And, Quentin is supposed to fly off the handle over any suggestion of anything concerning Angelique. Sometimes in this story it doesn't always seem to make sense, but just picture it as Rebecca.
The 2nd Mrs. DeWinter was shy but brave. Maxim was older, aristocratic, also mysterious and moody, and as the story progressed became increasingly withdrawn. PT Maggie, on the other hand, deals with nearly every situation by running from the room crying. And PT Quentin is a brute who, at one of his lowest points, orders his wife to her room as if doling out a timeout to a child. I find their scenes together very nearly intolerable.
i agree also Midnite i believe that is the reason this is my least favorite storyline
[spoiler]other than Julia whacking Hoffman didn't like any of this i never understood why Maggie returned This quentin was my least favorite[/spoiler]
jennifer
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Well, far be it from me to dissent, ;) but I kind of like PT1970. There are elements that could be far better, I'll give you that; in some senses it's a storyline with several failed opportunities. But I still enjoy much of it.
I find it very believable that the PT characters are so different from the RT characters. That's kind of the point. These aren't the same characters we're used to. They share the same names (mostly) and faces as the characters we already know - but that's it. The circumstances of their births, their family histories, their lives up to now, everything has always been different from what happened in RT.
I agree, it would have been nice to see a spunkier Maggie. But I still think she showed a little more backbone than she's given credit for: she called Hoffman on some of her bullshit, and wouldn't let Quentin treat her like a child.
The Longworth/Yaeger storyline is yucky for the most part. The best thing about it is Buffie Harrington. If they'd focused more on her character it could've been better. :(
The Alexis/Angelique angle is a lot of fun, IMHO. I've just always loved evil twin soap plots, and this one is becomes a real humdinger. Here, Hannah and Stokes could have been used to better effect, but I think Lara Parker really carries it off quite well.
It is hard to root for anyone at this stage of the game, though. Barnabas is out of commission, and Maggie's AWOL in NYC. With Alexis possibly not who she says she is, Quentin acting like a jerk, Hoffman a total bitch (what a hoot!), and with Liz, Roger, Carolyn and Willie totally in the background, it's hard to find your safe place as a viewer. :-
I do think that this storyline picks up a bit with the return of Barnabas, and when the "real" Julia Hoffman shows up. :)
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Like Jennifer, I find 1970 PT to probably be my least favorite storyline. At least at this point in the game it seems that way, which is not too great since we're still fairly early on in the storyline. 1970 PT starts off very promising -- I really like Hoffman, and the mystery of Alexis and Angelique is good. I remember things get pretty creepy once their stepfather gets into the picture.
I'd forgotten, though, how early on in the storyline Bruno makes his entrance and how much air time he gets ... Consequently, I'm fast-forwarding like crazy through this storyline in a way I never did with Leviathan, at least not for weeks and weeks of Leviathan ... I also especially dislike the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ripoff, which doubles my fast-forwarding habit in this storyline. Chris Pennock does an admirable job as Cyris Longworth, and the contrast with his "Jeb" character shows he really can act. Yet I fear that his tendencies towards ... "excess" ... will be all to apparent now with his alter personality hogging the stage.
I love the original Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde story, and the theme of doubles and dopplegangers, which one finds in much literature of that era, so I'm not quite sure why I dislike it so much when DS tries to do it. My feelings about it are similar to the Adam storyline -- great source material, but ...
The Quentin character remains irritating throughout, as I remember ...
Lest I sound too negative, though, I am intrigued with what happened to Angelique at the seance and what's up with Damien Edwards ... and I've completely forgotten from my previous viewing!
For once I like Jerry Lacy again ... this role and his lawyer character are the only ones I can tolerate ...
:(
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I liked Trask too and was intrigued by Damien Edwards when I first saw the story. I was interested in how they were all connected to Angelique [spoiler]but then that possible story went nowhere too. :P[/spoiler]
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Eleanor, I'm intrigued by your spoiler -- especially with that :P in it ... but I'm forcing myself not to read it! I don't want to spoil what enjoyment I can still wring out of a second viewing of this storyline. (Though I do remember whether Alexis really is Alexis or Angelique ... and what happens with that part of the story ... creepy!!)
;D
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It IS fun when you remember some things, though. I know a lot of mysteries that can be more fun the second time around when you know the explanation and suddenly understand all sorts of references and little details.
The other day there was a rather poignant scene which, knowing the explanation for what happened to Angelique, was much clearer and more interesting. I hope people will remember this scene when they finally learn the truth.
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Love the Angelexis....sorry, but I HATE the whole Jekyl/Hyde C.P. and hate the Buffy Harrington (dont' want to list spoilage here).
Jerry Lacy looks good in the above montage....he always does when not in 'Trask-wear'.
Patti
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Now when the cable company here finally gets their upgrading done so I can now watch DS again. it's PT and at this point I really don't like the show very much. The Angelique thing is interesting since I haven't seen it since the first time around I don't remember how that turns out. Be glad when Barn and Julia are back.
Hate the Cyrus part, he looks like he fell headfirst into an oil bucket. I really don't think he looks very real all the makeup and so forth.
Tanis
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I kind of like the Cyrus/John story, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been more effective if the makeup/wig department had done a better job. If I took a potion and ended up looking like Mr. Yeager I'd throw the remaining elixir off of Widow's Hill. I really like the job Lara Parker does with the whole Alexis/Angelique plot. And I love Aunt Hannah, she's a hoot.
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It IS fun when you remember some things, though. I know a lot of mysteries that can be more fun the second time around when you know the explanation and suddenly understand all sorts of references and little details.
This is a good point. I've had that feeling in the past -- e.g., I'll re-watch a movie many times. But one so often hears, "Oh, I've seen that, I know what happens. What's the point in watching it again?" That would seem especially true where a mystery is concerned.
So, some of the suspense and edge are taken off. But as you say, you can observe and appreciate some of the cleverness in plotting, etc., even when you know what happens.
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I used to dislike the 1970 PT storyline tremendously, but seeing it again recently, I actually don't find it to be as bad as I used to.
First the weaknesses: Quentin and Maggie. As everyone has pointed out, Quentin is pretty much an insufferable, loud-mouth jerk who throws temper tantrums almost every other minute and Maggie a spineless jellyfish who lets Quentin walk all over her. I also don't like the 'romance' between Barnabas and Roxanne. Frankly I don't think Roxanne, this Roxanne anyway, was really needed in the plot.
The strengths: Roger with his sarcastic putdowns to Maggie, a scheming Hoffman totally devoted to Angelique (talk about quite a switch from the RT Julia Hoffman), the rocky marriage of Will and Carolyn, Cyrus/Yaeger [spoiler] (have to say I hated Yaeger for what he did to Maggie and Buffie, and to a lesser degree Cyrus too for not knowing when enough's enough for allowing his alter ego to go on with his wicked ways) [/spoiler] and the Alexis/Angelique dilemna.