DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '26 I => Current Talk '03 I => Topic started by: Raineypark on May 29, 2003, 09:45:56 PM
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Am I the only one here who HATED the return of Willie Loomis?
Didn't any one else throw something at the TV?
Never saw this stuff before. Wish I still hadn't.
The nature of Willie's relationship to Barnabas Collins ALWAYS makes me want to shriek.....but this was beyond endurance.
That Willie would even for an instant consider staying and helping the man who: enslaved him, beat him, tormented him, threatened him, framed him, belittled him, betrayed him......isn't just stupid. It's sickening.
If they had wanted to, they could have written Willie's return in much different terms. He could have come back older and wiser, angry and vengeful, with something of his original personality, determined to let Barnabas and Julia know he was no longer afraid. He could have demanded admissions of guilt and apologies all round, and only when Barnabas had admitted to both contrition and helplessness, should Willie have thought about remaining to help. In one conversation (this IS a soap opera, after all) they could have changed the nature of the entire relationship in a way that would have resolved past issues and opened up new possibilities for the interactions of all three characters. Instead of being needed merely to babysit the contents of a casket, he could have brought some of the original hoodlum's talents to the fight against the Leviathans. They could have made REAL use of one of the most talented actors in the studio.
But no. They brought him back the same simpering, pathetic child...still hoping to please his abusive parent....even to the point of destroying the first chance at happiness he's ever had. One can only assume the mail indicated this was the way the fans liked Willie. Or maybe TPTB were just too damned lazy.
Better he had stayed away¢â‚¬¦
How much longer to William Hollingshead Loomis?
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He was doing that selective memory thing too. Going on about how much he owed Julia and Barnabas.
Ha.
Barnabas beat him, tormented him, did all sorts of nasty things to him. And then he and the good doctor (who needs a slap upside the head and how) colluded and had him committed to a mental institution for a crime of which he was innocent. And Willie owes them?
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That Willie would even for an instant consider staying and helping the man who: enslaved him, beat him, tormented him, threatened him, framed him, belittled him, betrayed him......isn't just stupid. It's sickening.
I just pictured Willie taking all that into account when he returned, shrugging, and then thinking: "Eh, it's a living."
Gerard
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But no. They brought him back the same simpering, pathetic child...still hoping to please his abusive parent....even to the point of destroying the first chance at happiness he's ever had.
Willie remains the devoted servant to the bitter end, so it's just as well that you get used to the idea.
But actually, from a psychological POV, I think it's quite fascinating that it is that way. For instance, from the very beginning of all that we know of him, Willie latched onto more powerful older men who abused him in one way or another. Granted, he seemed to be with Jason of his own free will (which most certainly wasn't the case with Barn in the beginning). But I suspect there's a deeper reason there as well as here - one that allows, if not compels Willie to devote himself to Barn, completely in spite of how abusive Barn had been to him in the past...
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The way Willie was going on about Roxanne(refined and genteel) he reminded me of Carl. Carl described his low class gal with the same words. It makes me wonder what Roxanne was really like. [spoiler]It is too bad that she never shows up. It would have been classic to have her come on to Barnabas. I love it when he registers discomfort in inappropriate social situations.[/spoiler]
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Maybe Willie suffers from Stockholm Syndrome.
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Maybe Willie suffers from Stockholm Syndrome.
That's the only way the whole scenario makes sense, something like that. But as MB says, maybe that makes sense psychologically for this character: he's been beaten down and abused for so long that he actually feels an affinity with his former tormentor.
Plus, there's the whole blood slave thing. Since Barnabas is once again a member of the undead, does that 'reactivate' Willie's enslavement?
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Hello Raineypark I'm just glad that The
Q-man is back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D :P :P :-* :-*
Love Anne
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I was certainly yelling "Run, Willie, Run!!!"
But as MB suggests, it makes a rather fascinating psychological study. I got the impression that after Willie was released from Wyndcliff he was never completely restored to sanity, and even seemed to forget what Barnabas had done prior to that. Until Barnabas came along, Willie had been a drifter, and not terribly bright it must be admitted.
Willie may see Barnabas as his benefactor or even savior. He gave him a respectable job, a place to live, and turned his life around. Eventually Willie had the wherewithall to embark out on his own and find true love for the first time in his life.
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Hey what about Maggie !was Julia really that good that she could make Maggie forget what was done to her by Barnabas?
just a case of changing a charactor from evil to good
when the fans want it!
on the Luke and Laura thing it was stated on the show that it wasn't really rape when luke became popular and then they changed it back years later so their son could have a real issue with Luke!
jennifer
don't be too mad at willie it's the writer's fault LOL!
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Hey what about Maggie !was Julia really that good that she could make Maggie forget what was done to her by Barnabas?
That I know...Barn made sure Julia would hypnotise (more than once, just to be safe) Maggie, to make sure she forgot.
Patti
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Julia had nothing to do with the final erradication of Maggie's memories about her kidnapping and imprisonment in the Old House cell. That was Nicky Blair's doing. Julia tried to hypnotize Maggie and it didn't work.
After she escaped from Willie and the mausoleum they thought she'd go straight to the police. But in one of the more idiotic plot twists, Nicky waves his magic wand and suddenly Maggie's inviting Barnabas over for coffee and etchings instead. ::)
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But in one of the more idiotic plot twists, Nicky waves his magic wand and suddenly Maggie's inviting Barnabas over for coffee and etchings instead. ::)
Well, only idiotic in a sense if one expects that Barn would ever pay for any of his past crimes - but with Barn the titular hero of the show, THAT was NEVER going to happen. The prevailing notion, which is reinforced repeatedly throughout all storylines subsequent to Barn's 1967 introduction, is that every transgression, no matter how heinous, that he committed prior to Vicki's trip to 1795/96 was merely due to the fact that Barn was a vampire and couldn't help/stop himself. The audience must, therefore, accept that premise blindly and forgive all - an undertaking most find quite easy to do, chiefly because the subsequent storylines paint Barn as sympathetically as possible (sometimes going so far as to cast him as victim) while still maintaining his anti-hero status. That premise is an integral part, if not indeed a tenet of the show from 1968 onward, and actually one most fans would probably consider one of DS' more fascinating aspects. (However, it's also one that completely flies out the window when it comes to the way every other vampire on the show is portrayed/treated - a prime example of which we'll be seeing shortly...)
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Well, only idiotic in a sense if one expects that Barn would ever pay for any of his past crimes - but with Barn the titular hero of the show, THAT was NEVER going to happen......every transgression, no matter how heinous, that he committed prior to Vicki's trip to 1795/96 was merely due to the fact that Barn was a vampire and couldn't help/stop himself. The audience must, therefore, accept that premise blindly and forgive all......
Well, excuse the hell out of me for failing to recognize and sign on to the prevailing wisdom. I never accepted the premise, and never forgave a damned thing.
I detested, loathed and despised the character of Barnabas Collins the entire time I watched what I saw of the first run, and I never gave up anticipating the day when he would pay for his transgressions. Did I know deep down that the chances of that happening were virtually nil? Yes. But hope springs eternal.
The show was just as fascinating to watch from THAT point of view as any other.....perhaps more so because I never saw all the other characters as mere supporting players to The Star.
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Well B did get his cumeuppance in the film ..take that and let the rest of it go. . :- Honestly, not one person on this show is an ethical, honorific character, they all have faults galore! I know Lucia went on about Julia's fallings the other day -- she was pretty despicable at times but weren't they all and isn't that why we're still here debating a show that's been off the air for 30 years??? >:D
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Well, excuse the hell out of me for failing to recognize and sign on to the prevailing wisdom. I never accepted the premise, and never forgave a damned thing.
I detested, loathed and despised the character of Barnabas Collins the entire time I watched what I saw of the first run, and I never gave up anticipating the day when he would pay for his transgressions. Did I know deep down that the chances of that happening were virtually nil? Yes. But hope springs eternal.
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying your take is wrong - or even that I disagree with it (god knows I've repeatedly voiced my share of problems when it comes to Barn) - only that, given the way the writers chose to portray Barn and weave their storylines after 1967, making Barn accountable for anything he'd done prior was something that was never going to happen...
I never saw all the other characters as mere supporting players to The Star.
And on that we completely agree (again ;)). Generally, whenever the subject crops up that Barn/Frid IS DS and without him(them) there is NO show, I'm the first to vehemently disagree - cheifly because that notion not only invalidates the sizeable contributions every other character/actor made to the show (check out my take on the MPI DVD menus, for example, on page 2 of "Grrr! DS DVD" on page 23 of the "Current Talk III" board) - it invalidates the entire ten months of story prior to Barn/Frid's arrival. In fact, during those Dark Ages of online fandom that I referenced a few weeks back, I'd even put forth the scandalous and seemingly completely unacceptable/inexcusable hypothesis (among a very vocal contingent of Barn/Frid fans, anyway) that if Quentin/Selby had shown up on the show in 1967 rather than Barn/Frid, DS may have become just as successful without Barn/Frid altogether. You want to talk about asking to have the hell excused out of you?! Try doing THAT sometime!! [lghy]
Granted, Barn/Frid's contributions to DS are sizeable and unquestionable. BUT IMNSHO, Barn/Frid is not, never has been, never will be the end all and be all of DS...
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As a person whose first impression of Barnabas was that he was a serial killer (an impression that continues to linger throughout repeated viewings), I can empathize.
I think though that with any show you often find a large group of fans who really are not so much into the lead. Erica Kane is almost synonymous with All My Children, but there are a lot of viewers--devoted viewers--who loathe the character. Would AMC be better or worse with her departure? That I don't know.
Frankly, I think Barnabas was indeed integral to the show, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to buy the load of crap the show was shoveling that he was a somehow admirable or heroic figure--not, MB, that I think that's what you're saying. Nor do I think he was ever really indispensable.
As for Willie. The whole thing could have been written a lot better. Hell, that might as well be the refrain for the rest of the show's run.
And now perhaps I had better run before the legions of Barnabas fans come after me >:D
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As a person whose first impression of Barnabas was that he was a serial killer (an impression that continues to linger throughout repeated viewings), I can empathize........
.......And now perhaps I had better run before the legions of Barnabas fans come after me >:D
YOU? I'm the one who called him loathsome, despicable and detestable. [vryevl]
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Gosh, well let me be the first to admit being stunned by your vehement dislike of Barnabas' character. I imagine some others around here are probably taken back. I promise not to come after anybody if they don't like him. :o
I'll admit to thinking the other day that it was odd for a show from the late 60's/early 70's to let a TV character get away with murder and not have to pay for it in the end.
I really can't think of him as a serial killer because to my way of thinking, Barnabas killed to keep his secret and feed his hunger whereas a serial killer kills for pleasure.
I've seen the videos from the pre-Barnabas era and I thoroughly enjoyed them. I particularly liked the Phoenix angle. I was practically in tears when Dr. Guthrie was killed. Also, the plotting of David to kill his father was mesmerizing and I can't recall a performance from any other child actor that chilled me so much.
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Gosh, well let me be the first to admit being stunned by your vehement dislike of Barnabas' character. I imagine some others around here are probably taken back. I promise not to come after anybody if they don't like him. :o
I'm not sure I can say as much............[vryevl]
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hell i can buy into the fact that Barn was a vampire and could not help himself !it was an interesting take on a vampire where most of them before in stories were evil monsters(dah!) I always found it interesting as MB said that no other vampire was given the same sympathy on the show!
Barnabas didn't even try to help Tom(who was an evil
basically grunting vamp, down Steve! ;D) i find PC funny now as those who are vampires and don't want to feed are drinking units of blood!now i know my hospital would miss these
but quess GH has too many other problems to notice!LOL
jennifer
forgive me if this makes little sence but i had a rough day at work! :o
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I'm the one who called him loathsome, despicable and detestable. [vryevl]
But Barn can also be admirable, courageous and (countless female and probably some male fans might say) desirable. One of the best things about the DS characters is that most are never painted in black and white strokes - more often than not they have complex shadings. And Barn is probably the character that's the most complex and contradictory.
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Gosh, well let me be the first to admit being stunned by your vehement dislike of Barnabas' character. I imagine some others around here are probably taken back. I promise not to come after anybody if they don't like him. :o
My dislike most likely stems from two things. I didn't see DS until it first came out on video. So first off, I was an adult with extremely decided opinions 8) and of course, it was 1990ish and I had different a perspective and awareness than I probably would have if I'd been watching the show in 1967 (which would have been some feat as I was not even a glimmer in my then as yet unmarried parents' eyes). That and the fact that my first introduction to Barnabas was watching him going after Maggie Evans with the zeal of a stalker.
While I knew that Barnabas had a rep as the reluctant vampire, watching him in the 1967 episodes there wasn't much indication of that for me. You have to admit, 1967 Barnabas is one nasty guy. And if that wasn't enough for me, there was my brother. He would wander in and out of the room while I was watching the tapes and volunteer various comments: "Boy, is she stacked!" (Vicki in a sweater ;D) and "Is that the serial killer?" (Barnabas) IIRC, I even tried to explain that Barnabas was supposed to be the reluctant vampire, but you know, he had kidnapped Maggie and was telling her to forget who she was and trying to make her be Josette. Not an easy thing to try and pass off.
Me: See, he was cursed and made a vampire.
My brother: Okay. So what?
Me: So he's forced to go for victims but he doesn't like being a vampire.
My brother: Well, why did he kidnap that girl?
Me: She's the reincarnation of his lost love.
My brother: Uh huh. Why aren't the cops on to him?
Me: Well . . .
My brother: (Doing an imitation of Barnabas) You have such a lovely daughter, Mr. Evans.
Me: Don't you have something else you could be doing?
All of this is just my opinion though. And that doesn't necessarily amount to a whole heck of a lot. A friend of mine loathes Willie. Positively and completely despises him. Her first exposure to Willie was when he came back from Wyndcliffe in 1968. That was it. She hates him with a passion. So go figure.
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All of this is just my opinion though. And that doesn't necessarily amount to a whole heck of a lot. A friend of mine loathes Willie. Positively and completely despises him. Her first exposure to Willie was when he came back from Wyndcliffe in 1968. That was it. She hates him with a passion. So go figure.
But THAT I can understand! Willie came back from Wyndcliffe more demented than he was when he left!! That whole "I've got a rifle and here comes Joe" thing was creepy and stupid. And if you didn't know what went before, what else was there to think about Willie going to see Maggie to explain himself? Talk about a stalker!! ::)
And his behaviour towards Adam was infantile and cruel. I'd be surprised if ANYONE who was seeing him for the first time at THAT point didn't think he was loathsome!
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I've tried to explain my feelings for Barnabas to myself countless times--since 1967! Even at 13, I knew he was a vampire and a bad person who was mistreating Willie, forcing Maggie to become Josette against her will and kissing Vicki's hand with the same mouth with which he was draining calves' blood.
My parents were divorced and I lost a live-in father figure when I was five. So perhaps Barnabas was the father I never had. Why would I want a killer for my father? He was courtly, handsome, had a wonderful voice, spoke with excellent diction and genuinely seemed to regret the awful things he had to do. I also thought it was cool that he had this power over people. I felt powerless over my own life, so that makes some sense.
Now why didn't I latch onto kindly Dr. Woodard instead? Or even Roger? Hormones! Barnabas, for all his wickedness (or perhaps BECAUSE of it) churcned up my womanly desires. Call it sick, perverse, whatever--when you develop a crush like the one I had, it's like being a vampire--you've got to have your fix!
I don't think my brain was involved in my feelings for Barnabas back then. I couldn't help myself! And I wasn't alone.
One fact I consider indisputable is that Jonathan Frid/Barnabas saved DS from cancellation and kept it on long enough to bring in David Selby and other popular actors for fans to adore. Yes, MB, had Selby been brought in instead of Frid, DS might have become equally or more popular. However, it did not happen that way, and DS probably would have been canceled during 1967, never to be heard from again. Selby became very popular, but not for me--it was Barnabas all the way. Barnabas had a mysterious, dangerous spark that ignited deep, dark and forbidden things in me. I very much doubt Quentin could ever have done the same.
Love, Robin
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Barnabas had a mysterious, dangerous spark that ignited deep, dark and forbidden things in me. I very much doubt Quentin could ever have done the same.
Ah, but as is well documented on this as well as many other DS forums, Quentin/Selby ignites deep, dark and forbidden things in his fans just as much as Barn/Frid does in his. Isn't that right PFSs?! [wink2] Though I'm more than willing to concede that Quentin/Selby would have had to have been written/treated very differently post 1897 for his appeal to have remained as fervored as it was during the 1897 storyline.
I've said this countless times before, but the way Quentin is misused during Leviathans is one of the biggest blunders DS ever committed! So much rich potential for story was completely abandoned in favor of all this Leviathans-attempt-to-take-over-the-world foolishness. ::) And don't even get me started on what a waste it was not to have deeply explored the Quentin/Chris relationship and their respective curses (or is that curse?)...
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And don't even get me started on what a waste it was not to have deeply explored the Quentin/Chris relationship and their respective curses (or is that curse?)...
Curse (singular)
Patti
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I think the relationship between Barnabas and Willie, and it's evolution over the series, is fascinating. I have no trouble believing that Willie has developed empathy for his previous tormentor.
I can understand why some people dislike Barnabas so intensely. It's a matter of perception for me. I have no expectation of decency from a vampire. None. They are supernatural creatures and from what I understand, the instinct is to kill. They are not supposed to be nice creatures. Their instinct to survive is as powerful as any humans, and they want to survive at any cost. The reason Barnabas gained stature as a heroic figure is that he did not want to settle for being evil. It was not his choice to become this way, and his desire was to live a normal life. However, I think it's a given that once your bloodstream and brain has been tampered with in such a radical way (having your entire chemistry altered) you will never be "normal" and you will not think like a normal person. Does that excuse vile or murderous behavior? No. But the whole idea was that Barnabas did not want to be evil, yet the deed was done when the bat bit him in 1795. He would not overcome it even when "human" - the die was cast, and we watch him try and fail over and over. (Viewers have a fascination with that - something like watching and laughing at Ralph Kramden repeatedly fail at his scheme to become rich).
I understand why Barnabas detested Willie in the beginning. One does not tend to look fondly upon people who try to violate the grave of one's parents.;)
Nancy
But no. They brought him back the same simpering, pathetic child...still hoping to please his abusive parent....even to the point of destroying the first chance at happiness he's ever had.
Willie remains the devoted servant to the bitter end, so it's just as well that you get used to the idea.
But actually, from a psychological POV, I think it's quite fascinating that it is that way. For instance, from the very beginning of all that we know of him, Willie latched onto more powerful older men who abused him in one way or another. Granted, he seemed to be with Jason of his own free will (which most certainly wasn't the case with Barn in the beginning). But I suspect there's a deeper reason there as well as here - one that allows, if not compels Willie to devote himself to Barn, completely in spite of how abusive Barn had been to him in the past...
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To add my two cents, Willie has always had self-esteem problems and probably felt that he wasn't worth much to anyone except Barnabas. Yes, I know he had a warped sense of gratitude but if he felt that Barnabas had given him a chance(tho brutal) then it would be perfectly natural for him to "pay back" what he thought he owed Barnabas. Since Roxanne didn't hang around when the going got rough then Willie probably felt that she didn't think much of him either. Barnabas needed him but Roxanne didn't equals staying with someone with a modicum of feeling rather than risking it all to go after Roxanne.
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I've said this countless times before, but the way Quentin is misused during Leviathans is one of the biggest blunders DS ever committed! So much rich potential for story was completely abandoned in favor of all this Leviathans-attempt-to-take-over-the-world foolishness. ::) And don't even get me started on what a waste it was not to have deeply explored the Quentin/Chris relationship and their respective curses (or is that curse?)...
i agree it was a boring story and for me i want to run from the room every time i hear Jeb's voice. they could have explored so much more with the the Quentin/Chris angle!
jennifer
okay now am i suppose to have a rough time now that
my karma is in the - well yesterday i got back money
in a mistake made on my tax returns,found a long lost ring,heard from a friend haven't seen in a long time,
and had a wonderful day at work!so maybe this - karma
is better for me! ;D ;)[coolb]
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Am I the only one here who HATED the return of Willie Loomis?
Didn't any one else throw something at the TV?
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The nature of Willie's relationship to Barnabas Collins ALWAYS makes me want to shriek.....but this was beyond endurance.
That Willie would even for an instant consider staying and helping the man who: enslaved him, beat him, tormented him, threatened him, framed him, belittled him, betrayed him......isn't just stupid. It's sickening.
If they had wanted to, they could have written Willie's return in much different terms. He could have come back older and wiser, angry and vengeful, with something of his original personality, determined to let Barnabas and Julia know he was no longer afraid. He could have demanded admissions of guilt and apologies all round, and only when Barnabas had admitted to both contrition and helplessness, should Willie have thought about remaining to help. In one conversation (this IS a soap opera, after all) they could have changed the nature of the entire relationship in a way that would have resolved past issues and opened up new possibilities for the interactions of all three characters. Instead of being needed merely to babysit the contents of a casket, he could have brought some of the original hoodlum?s talents to the fight against the Leviathans. They could have made REAL use of one of the most talented actors in the studio.
But no. They brought him back the same simpering, pathetic child...still hoping to please his abusive parent....even to the point of destroying the first chance at happiness he's ever had. One can only assume the mail indicated this was the way the fans liked Willie. Or maybe TPTB were just too damned lazy.
Better he had stayed away...
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I came in late to this discussion, and have heard mention of the Stockholm Syndrome, which is a reasonable explanation as to the why of it. Willie had been tormented for so long that he became used to it, that he developed an affection for his tormentors, and so on. For anyone interested in this topic, there are plenty of websites. Most of them talk intelligently about why this syndrome occurs, how fast, what are the conditions under which it occurs, and so on. Willie has been subjected to all of them. And then some.
Someone suggested that Willie would just shrug it off, in his Willie-way, matter of fact and accepting, but I might add that it doesn't make it any less frustrating to watch him not stand up for himself. Like, at all.
It's hard to watch him this way. I prefer Post-Barn Willie, where he's still getting into it with Barn, going toe to toe with him on issues of the decency of letting people live their own lives, not forcing someone to love you, letting people live, for crying out loud! All of those, Willie is Barn's own personal Jiminy Cricket. Post -Barn you can watch Willie badgering Barn, following him around, reminding him over and over of the need to be gentle, forgiving, open minded, not to destroy foolishly and bring the law down upon the Old House. Etc, etc, etc. (He doesn't use those exact words, of course, but I think the message is there.)
I even prefer Pre-Barn Willie - a street punk with slicked back hair taking no bullshit from no body. I think he had a strong character back then, which allowed him to mostly survive the crap that was handed out to him later.
The pity of it is, the character of Willie disintegrated into nothing more than a step-n-fetch it dogsbody. "Go do this, pick up that, kill this vampire." Totally underutilizing the potential of the character, and the storylines that could have developed, if, like was mentioned, when Willie came back, he demanded and got more respect. They USED him on that show - they didn't utilize him. The writers messed up, and we missed out on what could have been many, many powerful performances.
So that's my two cents worth.
Maine Girl
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MaineGirl.....could you, like, hang around and post more often?
I REALLY like the way you think! ;D ;)
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This is a fascinating topic. I'm glad I found it. I also hated what they did with Willie when they brought him back for Wyndcliff. I missed the way he seemed to have become so caring about other people, and hated the way they had him tormenting Adam. I didn't see much of this storyline, but I wish they had made it bette,r and one of the ways they could have was to have written Willie, and the other characters better.
Misa