DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '12 II => Topic started by: David on August 11, 2012, 06:17:14 PM
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Seriously!
You don't want to hurt someone you love as badly as she hurt Barnabas--that woman is a deranged psycho!
I mean, still going at it 175 years later--what is wrong with her?
Julia acted more like someone who truly loved Barnabas.
So, should Angelique have seen a shrink or given a prescription for lithium?
What might her diagnosis be?
Discuss!
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David: I presume you are talking about Angelique in the original series. I did think Angelique in the 1991 version was possibly psychotic, or at the very least someone with "borderline" personality disorder and very likely a born sociopath.
In the clips I have seen from the Burton/Depp film, she's so cartoon-like, and the sequence recounting her original love affair (if one can call it that) with BarnaDepp is so curtailed, that I hesitate to comment.
I was disappointed in the Video Watchdog roundtable to see someone who apparently had seen either the entire 1795 storyline, or at least some substantial episodes from it, claim that Angelique was "obviously insane." I don't agree. I thought one of the best parts of that story (and I am talking about the ORIGINAL telling of it, not the 1969 re-tread) was how layered and nuanced Angelique's character was and how complex her motives were. It seemed clear that she was romantically obsessed with Barnabas, but there was also a side to her determination to get him to marry her that was about her need for status, privilege, and all the things that "Mamselle Josette" had and she didn't.
After her "death," she does seem gradually to go off the deep end and become more straightforwardly malevolent. An interesting facet of her evolution as a character is that in the original story, her powers came from her understanding of herbs, of the laws of sympathetic and contagious magic, and, I think, from the sheer force of her own will. When she reappears as Cassandra in 1968, all of a sudden there's talk of the Devil and how her powers come from him. That wasn't part of the original 1795 narrative.
G.
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I think she definitely showed traits of having Narcisistic Personality Disorder, and her penchant for pursuing repetitive, unequal, abusive relationships attests to this. It seemed she had a lonely, deprived, loveless childhood, and then projected all of her buried needs and desires for love and affection onto Barnabas, which obviously wasn't going to turn out well. It could also be that she was sexually abused by a man in one of the households she served in as a child, and her pursuit of Barnabas is an endless repeat of that trauma. But Angelique is uninterested in looking back and facing the sad little girl she once was, but prefers to continue pursuing him through a grandiose, romantic vision of herself and the pipe dream of happiness that will come when they are finally together. In reality, she will only have unequal, abusive relationships until she resolves her past issues.
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I think we can safely add "control freak" to the litany of interesting flaws that Angelique has exhibited at various times. And that aspect seems to run through OS, 1991, and 2012 versions.
Petofi
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I didn't really start to see it until 1970. After she had been through two other guys, and then wanted to mess things up for Barnabas again... At that point, I knew something was really wrong. Then it got progressively worse. In 1991, it was abundantly clear from the get-go. And in 2012, our favorite witch was not only mentally deranged, but had deluded herself in a way that was not rationally conceivable. I can only imagine what future versions will bring. The newest Angelique will surely come with a free pass to Windcliff from the start.
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I wrote a story once that involved Barnabas having Bipolar disorder (I'm bipolar but on a cocktail of meds and therapy, so I know a little bit about the subject - lol.) I haven't tackled Angelique's disorders yet, but I agree with some of the posters in this subject.
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in each storyline and variation of the character there's a slightly different approach...
original 1795 angelique is hell-hath-no-fury-like-a woman-scorned taken to the nth degree. her decision to waste most of the collins family could be looked at as sociopathic, but she's competent and self reliant, and can at times he reasoned with. when she shows up in 1968 as cassandra she's sort of a hot mess. suddenly she's in league with the devil and is largely dependant on him, and later nicholas blair, for her powers, and is something of a screw up. her spells don't have the easy glide they did in 1795. she's the original "desperate housewife".
1897 and 1970 ang are as close as the character gets to rationality. there's some evolution. her "friendship" with julia in 1897 is a nice touch. she ends up regressing, going back to her tricks so to speak, but she seems somehow salvageable given the correct circumstances.
i'm currently plodding through 1840 so i'm not really sure what to make of that angelique yet. however i am confused. i thought the character came from martinique in the eighteenth century. how did she end up, as miranda, in collinsport in the seventeenth century? [ghost_huh]
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I would add that Vampilique in 1968 seems the most psychologically disturbed of all of the Angeliques--up until the 1840 Angelique who I almost don't want to talk about because the writing is so bad for her. (I also obviously don't include PT 1970 Angelique who is a completely different character.) Vampilique could be the poster girl for Narcissism gone through the roof. But of course, we can't look away for a second whenever she's onscreen.
Even Vampilique does have her moments of lucidity and thoughtfulness. The 2012 version, from the clips I have seen, just seems like a nonstop trainwreck from the get-go. And what is it with that baby-girl voice s h i t? But I digress.
G.
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Vampilique - I love it G.! LOL
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Angelique is probably my most favorite character from the series for the simple fact that she is so fun to analyze psychologically. For this topic, I agree with much of what Gothick has said thus far.
I think the common thread through all of the Angelique's we have seen (Parker's in the original series, Anthony's in 91, and now Green's in 2012) is that she is most simply a woman who is disgusted with her original station in life and seems determined to somehow move up through society. It just so happens that she decides to latch on to Barnabas in hopes that he will pull her out of the bowels of society enough to make a name for herself.
Certainly in the original series she was jealous of Baranbas' love for Josette, and I suspect, of Josette's life in general. She wanted to live the life of a wealthy woman and have all that life would bring to her. Much of her machinations during 1795 revolved around securing a man for herself that would allow her to live a better life. Wanting to conquer Barnabas was her primary goal and it seems easy for me, as a man (albeit a gay one) to say that Angelique thought she needed a man to better herself simply because I have gender bias and it is my perspective. But I don't think she necessarily was going after any rich man in town. She wanted Baranbas because she was enamored with him and if it helped our her overall life status that seemed as if it were a two for one deal.
We see this time and again throughout the series how Angelique is always going after Barnabas by way of Roger, Quentin, Julia, and anyone else she could manipulate in order to get to Barnabas. Much is made of, in all of DS' incarnations, Angelique's hell bent nature to make the Collins family pay for all that they have done to her. But no matter her actions, she isn't simply on a revenge kick against the family for no reason. It's highlighted in the OS more times than I can count that Angelique tries to blackmail Barnabas into loving her or being with her by threatening his family. It just never works out in her favor.
Despite the plot holes and numerous twists and turns, Parker's Angelique steadfastly remains as the best of the three incarnations of the witch simply because the show had the time to explore her character and really make her one of the most well rounded and full circle characters of the series as a whole. The 91 revival and the 2012 film simply did not have the time to devote to doing this and as a result Angelique seemed to turn out to be a caricature of herself and to seem utterly insane and without sound motivation for her actions. We see the common thread I spoke about above, especially in the 2012 movie with Angelique rising to power after turning the town against Barnabas in the 1790s. She becomes the wealthiest person in Collinsport and everyone and everything seemingly revolves around her in some way (which this Angelique seems to like because she seems very self centered and selfish. I don't think Parker's Angelique was quite as self-centered.)
I remember that one of my biggest qualms with the new film was that I kept getting the feeling that Angelique was happy with being the biggest fish in Collinsport because she had acquired fortune and was still close enough to the Collins family to keep an eye on them. However, I always imagined Angelique as being someone who had an insatiable appetite for power and always wanted to grow and be better than she was previously, which meant that she wouldn't have just been satisfied with conquering Collinsport, but would have wanted to expand beyond that realm throughout the rest of the world. Perhaps this is just my own imagination taking liberties with what we were shown. Nonetheless, I never got that feeling from watching the Angelique in the original series, but now that I think about it maybe that was because she never really gained complete and true control of the town Collinsport and because of that she always had something to go after and aim for--she never had time to rest on her laurels and count her dough.
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Hey Brandon, great post. I personally think Lara Parker's performance as Angelique had much more subtlety and psychological layering than any of the others I have seen. In the case of Lysette Anthony, who I do think is a very accomplished actress, it seems obvious that she was hampered by the script and the direction, not to mention that awful accent somebody insisted she put on. With the other two (can't recall who played Ange in the 04 pilot), the projects were much shorter and, particularly in the '04 pilot, there just wasn't enough time to allow Angelique to be presented as a fully fledged character.
One of the reasons why Leviathan is still one of my favorite storylines is that we get to see a mature Angelique reflecting on the events of the past. In one episode, she tells Julia about finding "The View of South Wales" in a painting gallery in NYC when she was working as a model and how she would go and look at the painting and think about the past, all the madness, all the deaths... there's a sense of genuine regret in Parker's voice in how she plays this scene.
One of my theories about Angelique in 1840 is that they felt it would be easier to write her as an out and out villain and so she did not have any memories or understanding of the events in her life in the 20th century. It was a cop-out to make the task of writing the show a bit easier, in other words.
G.
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i haven't seem 1840 all the way through but for me part of the problem with angelique during this period is that she's fighting against such an unworthy opponent.
as opposed to the mythic, legendary figure of josette dupres(and her various other incarnations over the centuries)her rival here is the wishy-washy nothing of a character that is roxanne drew.
watching poor lara try and work herself into a jealous froth over this lightweight is painful to watch. sure josette could be a bit wimpy herself, but her status within series mythology was so great that it elevated her into a potent and considerable rival. roxanne was so vacuous and dull ang could have swatted her away like a moth.
ang is more fun when she's going toe-to-toe with an equal of sorts.
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josette could be a bit wimpy herself
Of course I object to the characterization of Josette as wimpy, but I suspect that the scenes that I see as proving her not to be wimpy would be the very scenes that others would see as proving her to be wimpy. Oh, well, it's off-topic.
I don't think that “Is Angelique mentally ill?” is a reasonable question, as applied to Angelique in the original series, because it ignores the eternal presence in her existence of Diabolos. I keep thinking of how Jesus cast out demons, although I'm aware that this idea doesn't quite apply to Angelique. In my next watch-through of Dark Shadows, I'll be thinking of Angelique in terms of her trying but failing to find happiness with the assistance of Diabolos - and also in terms of her inability to expel Diabolos from her existence. It remains to be seen whether or not that supplies, for me, the thread that ties together all her actions.
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perhaps "wimpy" was not the best choice of words...
but my point was really that during most of the other time periods/storylines angelique was going up against a character who's importance in series lore was stratospheric. so while josette might not have actually posed a direct threat to ang she was still a force to be reckoned with.
roxanne was, in my opinion, the most poorly developed regular character on the series. it wasn't donna wandrey's fault. by the time she joined the program it was changing time periods every three months so there was never the time for any character development. yet in each new time period they just plunked her down and expected the viewer to somehow find her important and engaging and she just wasn't.
so during 1840 watching angelique try and work herself into a jealous rage over this poorly written and developed character just falls completely flat. it's a dud.
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One of my theories about Angelique in 1840 is that they felt it would be easier to write her as an out and out villain and so she did not have any memories or understanding of the events in her life in the 20th century. It was a cop-out to make the task of writing the show a bit easier, in other words.
I agree. I found it very odd that Angelique had apparently never been ''destroyed'' between the events of 1795 and 1840 and was able to simply adopt her (non-aging) human form without having to acknowledge she had lived other "lives" a la 1897, 1968, and 1970.
roxanne was so vacuous and dull ang could have swatted her away like a moth.
[lol2]
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Personally I don't think any of Angelique's "rivals" really were all too formidable. Perhaps her greatest rival of all was Barnabas--or maybe a better word for him would be her foil. Nevertheless, it seemed to me (and I haven't watched DS in large portions in quite some time so bear with me if I get something wrong and feel free to correct) that whoever Angelique was "sparring" with was only as a result of Barnabas showing interest in this person and Angelique wanting to divert his interest back to her. She always wanted Barnabas dealing with her in some way, whether it was good or bad because at least then she was getting attention from him, even if it wasn't full fledged love like she would have had.
I think Josette's importance in the series only seems to loom large because of Baranbas' undying love for her throughout the centuries. I found Josette herself to be your typical ingenue--she may not have been wimpy per se but she definitely was making decisions or acting as a result of something that someone else did. She never really seemed to make her own decisions because she was always being controlled, whether by the magic of Barnabas and Angelique or by her own father and aunt who were trying to do what was best for her. I always think of Josette as more of a child because she never really had the chance to stand up and say what she really wanted, and her character was written pretty submissively in my opinion.
The only other people who were good opposites for Angelique were Julia and Quentin (when he wasn't out for himself and trying to use Angelique for his own personal gain).
Now that I think about it perhaps the greatest rival of all for her in the entire show was Nicholas Blair because though they were technically on the same side he always managed to keep her under his thumb which annoyed the living daylights out of her (and even kept her out of daylight at one point). For a while there it seemed that no matter what she did to try and act out her own schemes and plans, Nicholas was always a step ahead to stop her from going out of control or thwarting her completely in favor of something he wanted to do.
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josette and roxanne were angelique's romantic rivals...
regardless of what one actually thinks of josette as a flesh and blood character she was a "presence" of tremendous importance throughout the series' run. remember "josette lafrenier" appeared soon after the show premiered. she was prominently featured enough in series mythology that whatever the viewer actually thought of her they, and through them angelique, had to recognized her significance.
hence they could get a feeling for angelique's tremendous jealousy around her. it translated to the viewer.
not so with roxanne. the writers just sort of threw it at the audience and expected it to take. it didn't.
so again, watching angelique go through the motions of trying to work herself into a foam over her just goes limp.
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I think Josette's importance in the series only seems to loom large because of Baranbas' undying love for her throughout the centuries. I found Josette herself to be your typical ingenue--she may not have been wimpy per se but she definitely was making decisions or acting as a result of something that someone else did. She never really seemed to make her own decisions because she was always being controlled, whether by the magic of Barnabas and Angelique or by her own father and aunt who were trying to do what was best for her. I always think of Josette as more of a child because she never really had the chance to stand up and say what she really wanted, and her character was written pretty submissively in my opinion.
That seems to be the typical reaction to Josette, but I never thought that way. It's been a long time now, so I don't recall any details, but I remember a scene where she wanted to go to the jail to talk to Vicki, and her aunt (and possibly others) didn't want her to. But she went anyways. I think there were a couple of other instances like that, so it seemed to me that she had a more forceful personality than she is generally given credit for.
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I agree. And then she shows great compassion to Jeremiah after Angelique's spell has worn off and they realize they're pretty much stuck with each other.
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so during 1840 watching angelique try and work herself into a jealous rage over this poorly written and developed character just falls completely flat. it's a dud.
Oh, I so totally agree. The whole 1840/41 storyline was so dull (save for when Quentin and Samantha had their claws out for each other), it couldn't cut through water. One of the worst characters was the poorly-developed (if you want to call it that) Roxeanne. She was such an uninteresting person that I'm surprised Barnabas had any interest in her. Angelique, rather than doing what she did, should've just told him: "Go ahead, date her. Marry her. When it gets to the point that you're yawning in your coffin, I'll be here, having other fun." The only good scene involving her was when she had to plead with her brother to have mercy on her when he was "fixing" what Angelique did. Now, if she had some of that gumption before, maybe she would've been worth the effort. Roxeanne was such a complete dud, whether in PT1970, NT1970 or 1840.
Gerard
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She never really seemed to make her own decisions because she was always being controlled, whether by the magic of Barnabas and Angelique or by her own father and aunt who were trying to do what was best for her. I always think of Josette as more of a child because she never really had the chance to stand up and say what she really wanted, and her character was written pretty submissively in my opinion.
It's interesting you should say that. I've always felt Josette was strongest when we saw her in full control of herself... and that happened after she died. I think you have a really strong character when it comes to the Ghost of Josette, definitely a worthy opponent to Angelique. And, going off of how strong she was when she was dead, I'd imagine she was pretty strong when alive... We just don't get to see it because she is always falling victim to someone's spell. [ghost_rolleyes]
After thinking of her as seen through the eyes of Barnabas, I always think of Ghost Josette. Pretty powerful force. They even brought that through to the new film.
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I think the greatest rival was Nicholas Blair, he was someone who knew her, and what she would do. He just let his guard down with her and the Devil. Her female rival was Julia, who was a friend of BC and that was one thing that Angelique never really got to. Julia and Barnabas, had a relationship at the end that was based on friendship and basic faith on one another. We never really saw where it went.
The scene in 1840 was totally out of character for Barnabas and was a set up for Branwell. It was a big writing mistake. A gimmick.
Barnabas was the reason why Angelique had problems, he was her scape goat. He was her solution for her problems, and he took all the blame. If you blame someone else and you don't look at what you do then you don't get anywhere. Angelique was obsessed with Barnabas her was her rose colored glasses.. To that degree she couldn't see reality and what was really happening.
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I'm not sure so much that she was mentally ill so much as she was a woman who wanted to be in control. Far be it from me to defend her, but she was a woman who knew what she wanted and was determined to get it and let nothing stand in her way...this would have been admirable if her methods hadn't led to people getting destroyed left and right, which was the case in 1795.
Her desire for revenge...well I am sure we all felt like wanting to right a wrong we felt has been wrong to us. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm absolving Angelique from the evil she inflicted on others, because a lot of her acts were simply too unforgivable. And I think (or hope) that most of us are above hurting others in our quest for revenge but we are after all only human. Angelique was a witch, but she did have human emotions, mostly the wrong ones.
Lara's Angelique and Eva Green's I believe though honestly did love Barnabas in their own, twisted selfish ways. I'm not so sure about Lysette Anthony's however. Lysette's Angelique seemed to me 100 percent pure evil, with no remorse over the death and destruction she causes the Collins family in her quest to get Barnabas. At least [spoiler] Angelique in the original show did show a bit remorse over Jeremiah's death, and she did try to talk Barnabas out of going through with the duel. On the 1991 show, Angelique is absolutely responsible for Jeremiah's demise, by putting the bullet in Barnabas' pistol at the last moment, enabling him to shoot Jeremiah. [/spoiler] Eva Green's interpertation of the role strikes me as almost being mix between Lara's and Lysette's....her Angelique can be cruel and manipulative, but she also demonstrates that her feelings for Barnabas are very much there despite her relentless wrath against him and his family.
As someone who actually enjoys the 1840 storyline and considers it one of the best storylines....I have to concede though that Barnabas' sudden declaration of love is WAY too out there. I can see him growing softer toward her, maybe even forgiving her...Angelique does change through out the storyline, maybe a bit too quickly, but nevertheless she does mellow out. This Angelique apparently had not lived out the events of 1968 and 1897 so I can maybe buy her transformation more easily than others do, but certainly not to the point where Barnabas could ever forget that she was still the woman who destroyed and terrorized his family at different eras of time.