DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '12 II => Topic started by: ClaudeNorth on July 11, 2012, 07:55:36 PM
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I'm watching the final episodes of the series and wondering what all of you think of Mary Cooper as Josette in 1841PT. While I don't think she was a bad actress, I don't think she was right for the role, and never conveyed the feeling that she was an older version of Josette DuPres (assuming, of course, that PT Josette was the same as Regular Time Josette, in terms of lineage, character history, etc.). I find that she lacks a certain flair and elegance that the older Josette would have had; she seems too "American," if you know what I mean.
Any thoughts?
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She was my favorite character in PT1841; I loved every scene she was in.
I do agree that she was a totally different "take" than what the NT would've been (had NT history been different, natch). One has to remember two big differences in the two: in NT, Josette DuPres received the welcoming arms of the Collins family; it's obvious, in PT, she was not. They were apparently cordial to her, but not embracing. We do know of one reason why, but I shant say as it would constitute a spoiler. However, I consider the two parallel times to be different. I always thought that, in PT1841 (and earlier), the Collins family in the late 1790's did not approve of marrying Josette because she was a Catholic, whereas they were Protestants, and already nativist anti-Catholic bigotry would not countenance such a union. She came in as a "black sheep," and her husband, Barnabas, was primarily disinherited, save for what his mother Naomi (who would probably have remained more affectionate towards her son) gave him and his wife in the way of the Old House and some financial support, but beyond that, Mr. and Mrs. Barnabas Collins, while living on the edges of the family, were pretty much on their own but did fine - not hyper-wealthy like the rest, but not exactly starving; they were the "poorer" relations. Their son, Bramwell, because of Catholic requirements for a mixed-marriage, would also had to have been Catholic, keeping him a black sheep.
As for PT Josette lacking, or having lost her flair and elegance, that would come from once being part of an aristrocatic, wealthy French colonist plantation family on Martinique and having lost it all by marrying Barnabas (possibly her Catholic father, Andres, being as militantly Catholic and anti-Protestant as the Collins family was militantly Protestant and anti-Catholic) did his own bit of disinheriting. But she gave it all up for the man she loved, which can also be a very humbling experience, making her a humble person. Plus, having lived in America for most of her life, she would become far more Americanized than Gallicanized.
Gerard
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Same impression here as ClaudeNorth though it could be as Gerard says. On some viewings it's a real surprise having "Josette" pop up, when we'd gotten used to thinking of Bramwell being on his own. I always wonder if they threw her in on a sudden whim...
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I'm not sure Mary Cooper was the right choice as Josette. I would have thought that even in PT she would still have some Gallic or Creole traces, perhaps a love of (carefully preserved) finery or a trace of bygone glamor--maybe one last piece of the jewelry Barnabas gave her that she's held on to all these years. Anyway, something.
But I do think MC did a good, concise job in her few appearances of convincing us that she knows what makes Bramwell tick. She's the only person he really listens to and almost the only one he really respects.
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I have only watched this storyline two times. I never really paid attention to Josette. She wasn't really a fleshed out main character.
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I found the character rather flat and unmemorable, boring. Perhaps if KLS was around they could have aged her with makeup and that would have made her seem more like the Josette we knew.
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PT Josette was little more than a day player but Mary Cooper isn't bad. She manages to convey Josette's somewhat faded elegance and handles the family dynamics much better than Bramwell. There should have been some confrontation between Josette and Flora. Grayson does a fine job with telling Melanie and Josette to keep a lid on it. But it would have been more effective to see Flora in action.
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She seems a bit like a Leave It To Beaver mother. I'm going to guess that she had no real idea who the character was or what importance she'd had in the show when she played her.
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i haven't seen 1841 parallel time yet...
what is josette doing there at all? doesn't jonathan frid play a character named "bramwell"? how does barnabas factor into things?
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Remember that, in PT, Barnabas and Josette did marry (according to the biography of Barnabas penned by William H. Loomis in PT1970). They had a son, Bramwell. Sometime before PT1841, Barnabas had died of natural causes while his widow, Josette, was still alive and residing in the Old House.
Gerard
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Just speaking personally, I found Cooper a ghastly miscast as Josette. I don't think the actress was at all to blame. Her reason for being there is unclear until almost the very end and her only motivation seems to be to react to Bramwell's wild and woolly antics. I also found her line readings really flat and wooden. She really needed a voice coach for the role but obviously nothing like that was available in the world of DS.
I'm glad that some viewers did enjoy the portrayal. I personally tend to fast forward through her scenes because I find her physically uncomfortable to watch--along the same lines as a certain hair-clutching "actor."
G.
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I think what I really liked about her character, or at least the portrayal of it, was that she was the polar opposite of all the other female characters. Flora, never going without being dressed to the nines, was constantly angry or angst-ridden, always scowling. Melanie was a whiney nut case. Julia was a controlling bitch. Catherine was a budinski, self-righteous busy-body. (Daphne was the only pleasant one.) Everyone was always screaming, yelling and fighting. Josette, on the other hand, was always the cool, calm one, tending to her own business, rarely criticizing even though she was pretty much a pariah within the Collins family, and if anyone had the right to complain, she did. She was soft-spoken, although she had the ability to register her indignation when the need arose. And, unlike all the other womenfolk in the Main House who dressed as if every day was a fashion judgement day, she wore plainer, more humble, clothing. She was a true lady and gentlewoman.
Gerard
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And, unlike all the other womenfolk in the Main House who dressed as if every day was a fashion judgement day, she wore plainer, more humble, clothing. She was a true lady and gentlewoman.
But isn't that one of the un-Josette-ish thingsabout her?
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I always liked her. She seemed very "motherly" and sweet and kind. However, it was very difficult to picture that Josette would turn into her. Of course, maybe Parallel Time Josette was different that the one we're used to.
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That's how I view it - the PT world was very different from the NT one. In PT, it's obvious that the Collins family was not very amiable to Josette. Either something happened, or the initial reaction of the family to Barnabas marrying Josette, for whatever reason, was not very accepting. Even if, between the two bands of time, some of the people are the same, their behavior and even place in life was far different. In PT- and NT1970, the two Julia Hoffmans were the same woman. Yet, because of certain circumstances, and as Eliot Stokes explained, because of choices they had made, they could and would end up miles apart in outcome. I enjoyed seeing a mature, matronly Josette 45 years after she arrived at Collinwood. And, don't forget, even though she was more June Cleaverish than her maybe what her NT counter-part would've been (had she survived in NT), there still was some "foxiness" left in her as exemplified by a very important plot-twist in the PT1841 storyline.
Gerard
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I was just happy (thrilled, actually) that Barn & Josette ended up together and happy, even if it was in an alternate universe. That emotion over-rode (?) any notice of the Mary Cooper's performance.
I wish they had done the same for Vicki.
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I thought she was a very sweet woman and did just fine in the role. She held her own against Julia, was very motherly and affectionate with her son Bramwell, even if she didn't agree with the choices he makes or how he handles solutions, and with Melanie [spoiler] whom we find out was her daughter. [/spoiler]
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The actress I think was likable in the role, even if she wasn't suited for the role. I'd compare her to Betsy Durkin as Vicki in that regard.
I wonder if the existance of Justin and Julia Collins in this timeline had any effect on Josette being a pariah? Perhaps Justin influenced the rest of the family against her? Which makes him a pretty reprehensible hypocrite if that was the case.
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Justin never struck me as the hypocritical type. I suspect Julia was the prime mover in isolating Josette from the family in the Great House--especially [spoiler]once she found those incriminating letters in Justin's old clothing.[/spoiler]
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Do we know enough about Justin to say whether or not he was a hypocrite? I think our impression of Justin is formed from what Flora said about him, since we do not see Justin as he was before the great change in him.
As for Josette, I wonder if she herself was the cause of the lack of warmth towards her from the Collins family. Maybe she was told about the Room and reacted negatively, and persuaded Barnabas of the correctness of her opinion.
In any case, I'm sure that the Barnabas and Josette of parallel time are different from the Barnabas and Josette of our time band. PT Josette mentions Barnabas's dark moods, and I don't think dark moods were a feature of pre-vampire our-time Barnabas. What bothers me about PT Josette is her voice. Kathryn Leigh Scott has a lovely, distinctive voice, and Mary Cooper's voice is completely different. I doubt the aging process would have changed Josette's voice so much.
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Justin's behavior about the Locked Room was positively heroic. To me that connotes some kind of integrity, regardless of how much less than blameless his private life might have been.
But I do agree with you about Mary Cooper's voice, Lydia. Not quite what I was expecting the first time I heard her speak. But as someone else has observed, I suppose we can think of her as being like Betsy Durkin.
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Justin's behavior about the Locked Room was positively heroic.
Again I say: We weren't there to see it. If the writers could have gotten their hands on that event, I'm sure they would have had a ball with it.
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To the best of my knowledge, Mary Cooper was a Stage Performer and Friend of Joan Bennett. The role may have been hastily cast because although the cancellation of the show was by no means assured, the writing was on the wall. The Barnabas/Julia Hoffman relationship was at the Heart and Soul of Dark Shadows and it must have been very difficult for the writers to create a compelling storyline without these vital characters. Mary did the best she could under very difficult circumstances and she did come across as a kind caring person, just like Josette Dupre. She was my favorite character in 1841 parallel time.
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I found her performance to be flat and uninspired. The actress may not have seen the show previously and was unable to link the character of Josette to KLS's earlier portrayal. All in all, the 1841 PT Josette was a disappointment to me, though I find this storyline one of the most enjoyable of the entire series.