DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '26 I => Current Talk '03 I => Topic started by: Afan on January 24, 2003, 09:22:11 AM
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Let me begin by saying, that I absolutely
LLLLOOOVVVEEE Quentin. But today when he left poor Carl in the crypt knowing that Barn would wake at any time and do heaven knows what to the poor fellow, was really a low for Quentin. He can't help tearing people to shreads, because he is a werewolf, but in his human form you would think he could have found another way to shut Carl up. I know that he is relying on Barn helping him, but I believe that he could have found another way. Poor Carl!
Afan
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I am not fond of Quentin. He's been a selfish, brutal SOB since 1897 began, and I think that Magda's curse is most fitting, for at times Quentin behaves more like an animal or a thug than a person. Treating Carl the way he did in this episode must be one of the lowest things that Quentin has ever done. Granted that Jenny's murder might have been accidental, he consciously chose to abandon Carl in the tomb, knowing full well Barnabas would kill him when he rose for the evening.
Poor harmless, fun-loving Carl really doesn't deserve what happens to him, and his fate is one of the points in DS that I resent. I think the character is great fun and Karlen's portrayal is very enjoyable. While I understand that Karlen was temporarily leaving the show and Carl had to be written out, I wish it could have been done some other way. Certainly making Quentin a party to his brother's demise does nothing positive for his character. Suffice it to say that I think that this plot point is messy and unnecessary.
ProfStokes
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Killing Carl was never the only way out.
Carl was certifiable. All they had to do was let him tell his story about Barney the Vampire to as many family members as possible. Then Edward calls the attendants from Wyndcliff and have them come take him away.
Easy out for John Karlen, somewhat less cruel exit for Carl, one less unforgivable act on the part of Quentin. But then again, he's done so many.....what's one more?
rainey
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If John Karlen was to leave DS anyway, why bother to have Carl return at all? They just could have let him disappear as they did other characters. Bringing him back just to kill him off made no sensel.
Not to mention that Barnabas changed history by killing Carl (he should have been smart enough to realize that). The writers regressed the character of Barnabas here and it was a horrible mistake.
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it does seem strange to me that Barnabas, to go to all this trouble to save a dying David and a cursed Chris in the future, could kill Carl without a thought. Who knows what the future held for Carl, he may have had a large family someday, and many descendants to populate todays times(and if they were like Carl, that would have been fun)....apparently some guy that Barny had just met in 1968 (Chris) was more important (although a very distant cuz) than Carl.
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it does seem strange to me that Barnabas, to go to all this trouble to save a dying David and a cursed Chris in the future, could kill Carl without a thought.
Not much stranger than any of the other nonsense on the show.
Quentin to Carl, as he closes the mausoleum door:
"Just remember Carl, I can juggle with ONE hand....while I hold the gun in the OTHER."
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Poor Quentin he gets into alot of trouble
but then again he trys to be helpful !!!
I TOO JUST LOVE THAT MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YUMMY ( LUSCIOUS )
LOVE ANNE
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I'm with you, Afan-- sacrificing his brother was rock bottom for Quentin. He still hasn't learned that he's not the center of the universe, and the only justice in Carl's death is that Quentin will have a long, long time to think about what he did.
If John Karlen was to leave DS anyway, why bother to have Carl return at all? They just could have let him disappear as they did other characters. Bringing him back just to kill him off made no sensel.
I don't get either why the writers treated Carl as disposable. While I wouldn't call him certifiable, he may have been the only likable member of that family, and certainly was the most innocent. Unfortunately, another JK character gets dispatched just as needlessly.
It seemed ridiculous to bring Angelique back for 1 ep too, cuz we won't see her again til the week after next. (I miss the days when Ange fans were numerous and vocal; now it seems like nobody wants to talk about her anymore. :() Anyway, though I love having her around since she usually kicks the tension up a notch, what was the point of having her (literally) pop in?-- it's not like we didn't already know that she's keeping an eye on Barn, or that they can't be alone together for 5 minutes without tossing barbs at each other. And they could've reminded us why he's in 1897 just as well with an opening voiceover. BTW, while we're laying blame, she has Carl's blood on her hands too, cuz Magda made a good case for saving him.
Quentin to Carl, as he closes the mausoleum door:
"Just remember Carl, I can juggle with ONE hand....while I hold the gun in the OTHER."
Hee hee!!
I don't know what's more surprising-- that somebody wrote the line, "I can do it with one hand while the gun is in the other," or that Selby delivered it with a straight face. [lghy]
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I miss the days when Ange fans were numerous and vocal; now it seems like nobody wants to talk about her anymore. :()
I'm here, Midnite - and am a big Angelique fan...quite willing to be more vocal. Haven't said too much about her 'cos she doesn't seem like the most popular character on the board. [lghy] I love her to death, but isn't she just a rotten broad?
Seriously though, I am in agreement, she does always liven things up - but it's hard to figure out why they had to bring her in to this ep just to reinforce that she's keeping an eye on Barnabas...isn't she always?
It seems like they could've done more with Angelique in 1897. I blame her for much of what went wrong. She could've decided to help Barnabas much earlier in the proceedings, and other bad stuff besides Carl's death could've been avoided.
And yes, this certainly is Quentin at his lowest point.
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I've got a question about Angelique in 1897.
First, she doesn't show up until the "incompetent dabbler" Evan Hanley summons her from....where ever she's been. That seems to imply that she couldn't just "appear" in 1897 to help Barnabas, even though we can assume she ALWAYS knows what he's up to. Which would in turn imply that she's answerable to 'someone' and not entirely free to do as she pleases.
Except that once she's IN 1897 she acts as though she's a free agent, can come and go (and create doppelgangers), help or not help, be cruel or kind, entirely to suit her own fancy.
And while I'm asking....WHAT exactly IS Angelique at this point?
In 1795 she was a living woman. A living woman who practiced the occult arts, but a living woman never the less. But what is she now? A ghost? A reincarnation of herself? A demon? What?
rainey
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I too really thought it was the lowest of low acts. . .unforgiveable really.
Annie. . you have to acknowledge Q ain't always so yummy. .sometimes he's quite crummy.
Even I, lover off all things Julia Hoffman, realize she's got her short comings and does some pretty despicable things at times. . .but i don't think she ever put her brother in a room with a vampire. . ?? That's just low man!
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I too really thought it was the lowest of low acts. . .unforgiveable really.
What a prick, huh!
Annie. . you have to acknowledge Q ain't always so yummy. .sometimes he's quite crummy.
Yeah Annie! What in hell's the matter with you, anyway? Don't you have any moral standards at all?? Are you so blinded by lust that you cannot see that Quentin might sometimes be....SEMI-YUMMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??
;D ;) ;D
love & xxx,
CLC
(Morally bankrupt)
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I've got a question about Angelique in 1897.
In 1795 she was a living woman. A living woman who practiced the occult arts, but a living woman never the less. But what is she now? A ghost? A reincarnation of herself? A demon? What?
Good point, Rainey. Have to admit I've always wondered what the heck she is too!
I think that most of the times we see her after her strangulation death at the hands of Barnabas in 1795/6, she's some kind of quasi-demon (demonette perhaps?) ::) with the full powers of a witch.
In 1897 it appears that she can only be destroyed by fire, so that means she can't be fully human. But she isn't all powerful because as we see later...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
She can't 'hand'le (sorry, couldn't resist) the powers of Petofi's severed mitt.
END SPOILER
What baffles me (as you pointed out) is that in 1897, Ange simply doesn't follow any rules but her own. Sometimes she shows up uninvited to gloat or to help, and it seems like there was a time or two when someone was asking for her help and she was nowhere to be found.
I've always wondered if she was flashing back and forth between this timeline and some other, wreaking havoc or lending a hand wherever she felt like butting in.
This getting a little too off topic, I fear. Whoops! [nerv]
P.S. Back on topic, I have to admit that I'm with Connie and Annie - even at his worst, Quentin is still yummy. A prick? Yes. Hot? OHMIGOD I CAN'T BREATHE IT'S SO HOT IN HERE!!! [smokn]
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Not much stranger than any of the other nonsense on the show.
So true! "A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" (heard that said by Willy Wonka)
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I recall Carl saying to "Cousin Barnabas" what great friends they would become... I do not understand how his affections could change so quickly... had Quentin and Barnabas discussed the need for Carl to keep this secret, it may not have been necessary to eliminate Carl.
Sarah
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I've got a question about Angelique in 1897.
First, she doesn't show up until the "incompetent dabbler" Evan Hanley summons her from....where ever she's been. That seems to imply that she couldn't just "appear" in 1897 to help Barnabas, even though we can assume she ALWAYS knows what he's up to. Which would in turn imply that she's answerable to 'someone' and not entirely free to do as she pleases.
I assume that Angelique spent the previous 100 years (since 1795, when she was burned by Ben Stokes) in hell, then was brought through the flames by Evan and Quentin. She clearly has already lived through 1968 because we get clues in the 1897 story that this Angelique 1) knows David; 2) knows that Chris is a werewolf; and 3) admits to having been in 1968 previously; and 4) gets huffy when she's called "Cassandra".
However, all this will get screwed up once we get to 1840, but I digress.
Except that once she's IN 1897 she acts as though she's a free agent, can come and go (and create doppelgangers), help or not help, be cruel or kind, entirely to suit her own fancy.
And while I'm asking....WHAT exactly IS Angelique at this point?
A very powerful witch-- immortal, still obsessed with Barnabas, but smarter and wiser than she was as Cassandra.
In 1795 she was a living woman. A living woman who practiced the occult arts, but a living woman never the less. But what is she now? A ghost? A reincarnation of herself? A demon? What?
Yes, she was human when we first met her in 1795, but do you remember when she was strangled by Barnabas and came back as a ghost to testify at Vicki's trial? Somehow she made it to 1968 and became the witch Cassandra-- powerful but in some ways bumbling-- and was able to bring Nicholas down. She appeared to Liz as Cassandra again, but at some point was delivered by her Master back to 1795, where she met up with Barnabas and begged him to stay in that time with her. (They were supernatural, immortal beings, which seems to make that unlikely, but whatever.) She was burned by Ben, then arrived in 1897 by way of Evan's incantation. In other words, her timeline so far goes from 1795 to 1968 back to 1795 to 1897.
So, was that clear as mud? ;)
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I'm here, Midnite - and am a big Angelique fan...quite willing to be more vocal. Haven't said too much about her 'cos she doesn't seem like the most popular character on the board. [lghy] I love her to death, but isn't she just a rotten broad?
My sentiment exactly! And I'm thrilled to hear you're an Angelique fan too. Please don't ever let a character's popularity at any given time dictate who you talk about. You never know if a lurker might be inspired to join you.
Cassandra Blair'sThis getting a little too off topic, I fear. Whoops! [nerv]
Hee hee, yes... I wondered if I should start a new topic, but I decided our move was keeping me busy enough. Oh well. :)
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Yes, Quentin was very, very bad. But............
you have to remember that Quentin was beside himself, counting the days till the full moon and hating himself the next day. He was desperate for anyone to help him. Low and behold...it's Barnabas. He probably figured out that he would get Carl eventually, so why not let Barnabas do it for him. That way it's "out of his hands" legally that is, and besides, there was to much on his mind.
Besides, I have a brother, the only sibling I've got, and believe me, I'd shut that mausoleum door, and laugh if I knew my brother was in there. That would show him!
So, inconclusive, Quentin was very, very bad. He should have thought another way of keeping Carl quiet, (yeah, it's Collinsport, Maine for the love of God!).
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I assume that Angelique spent the previous 100 years (since 1795, when she was burned by Ben Stokes) in hell, then was brought through the flames by Evan and Quentin. She clearly has already lived through 1968 because we get clues in the 1897 story that this Angelique 1) knows David; 2) knows that Chris is a werewolf; and 3) admits to having been in 1968 previously; and 4) gets huffy when she's called "Cassandra".
;)
And another important note, #5) When Julia comes from 1968 to 1897. . .Angelique recognizes her and asks how she is there? Julia replies, "your here, Barnabas is here, is there any reason I should not be able to be here too?"
Sassy Julia. . my fave! Or is evil Julia in 1995? I just love Julia with a 'tude. .
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I also find this to be one of the show's bad moves
killing Carl was not necesary to save anyone in the future they could have dealt with it in a different way
some of the people Barnabas has killed deserved it
but carl was harmless and not evil and this was so
cruel> i believe quentin was worse though and has
his blood on his hands even more than Barnabas.
i loved 1897 but this was a down side>
Angelique has her own ways which makes her unique!
llove to hate her but there were times one could even like her.
jennifer
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Julia replies, "your here, Barnabas is here, is there any reason I should not be able to be here too?"
YEAH!!! Just give me Julia in Angelique's face!
(Especially with her jaw jutting out).
Original line before last minute change:
"...is there any reason I should not be able to be here too?" (Julia mutters under her breath, "...bitch!")
;D
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And another important note, #5) When Julia comes from 1968 to 1897. . .Angelique recognizes her and asks how she is there? Julia replies, "your here, Barnabas is here, is there any reason I should not be able to be here too?"
Thanks! I forgot about that one.
Was it in that scene that Angelique tries to warn her away from Barnabas, calling him cold and I forget what else, and Julia snaps back with "Who made him that way?" Meowch!!!
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Sassy Julia. . my fave! Or is evil Julia in 1995? I just love Julia with a 'tude...
Oh, me too! I just love any episode that Julia's in. She's the heart and soul of Dark Shadows for me, 'specially when she's pissed off or has a 'tude! [lghy]
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Was it in that scene that Angelique tries to warn her away from Barnabas, calling him cold and I forget what else, and Julia snaps back with "Who made him that way?" Meowch!!!
A beatiful moment, wasn't it? For some reason, I thought this happened in 1968, but they tell me my short term memory ain't what it used to be! ;)
And Midnite, thanks for what you said earlier about speaking up about whatever characters one prefers. To me, DS character are like flavors of ice cream - everyone's got their personal faves and everyone's got a flavor or two they can do without...and so what!?
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had Quentin and Barnabas discussed the need for Carl to keep this secret, it may not have been necessary to eliminate Carl.
I don't think this would work because Carl would undoubtly ask Quentin why he wanted to keep this secret and Quentin wouldn't be able to explain the real reason without giving himself away. Carl is very inquisite and wouldn't stand for just any lame excuse. Also, the fact that he blames Barnabas for Pansy's death doesn't help matters much either.
I don't understand why Barnabas just couldn't make Carl forget the whole thing like he's done with others.
Perhaps if they had more time they could have come up with something to spare Carl, but everything happened so fast. As soon as Carl got back to Collinwood he immediately spilled the beans to Trask who was probably the worst person he could have told this secret to. There really was no other way to get around this for Quentin. Had he let Carl go free he knew very well he would blab the news all over Collinwood. Edward was already suspicious of Barnabas so there's a good chance that he would believe him and not think he's totally off the wall.
What Quentin could have done would be to STAY there with Carl until Barnabas wakes up, explain everything to Barnabas and then ask Barn to make Carl forget the whole thing.
Cassandra[/font]
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I agree cassandra they could have just locked him up and Barnabas could have done his thing. maybe put a spell on him telling him to return to NY(or wherever) and find a new chorus girl. then when Karlen left
it could be just mentioned and forgotten.Killing harmless Carl was just unexcusable in my book!
jennifer
and Annie one can love a cad(they can be Yummy too)
I LOVED Timothy Dalton as HeathCliff snd he did some pretty cruel things too.
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YEAH!!! Just give me Julia in Angelique's face!
(Especially with her jaw jutting out).
Original line before last minute change:
"...is there any reason I should not be able to be here too?" (Julia mutters under her breath, "...bitch!")
;D
OK - OK!!!, ROTFLMAO! I am lovin' this!! even the wifey [who sez she merely tolerates the DS thing] will sit and watch when these two get a good cat fight going! I love Angie and Jules apart, but together it great. As for GH right now, too bad Magda is having to backpedal on the curse thing, and what happened to Sandor?
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what happened to Sandor?
Good question!! (maybe King Johnny gave him a job)
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Thanks! I forgot about that one.
Was it in that scene that Angelique tries to warn her away from Barnabas, calling him cold and I forget what else, and Julia snaps back with "Who made him that way?" Meowch!!!
hmm that's a good question . . . i was thinking it was '68 too but seems more logical for 1897. .. the scene i referrenced happens in the "Rectory" where Julia is hiding? I didn't get why she had to hide .. .other than quick makeup changes into Magda WERE NOT possible. . . wait wait .. i guess its because the B-man was known to be a vampire. . .and anyone who was his friend wasn't safe OR was it 'cuz Edward seemed waaaay too interested in the mute visitor in short short skirt? (let's all sing the NAIR song now.. .) Who's got short skirts. . .Julia from 1968's got short skirts . ..(not the shortest we see but hey .damn short for pre-1900 Maine!) ..
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jennifer wrote:
it could be just mentioned and forgotten.Killing harmless Carl was just unexcusable in my book!
I'm not too sure that Barnabas would've been successful in making Carl forget what he knew. Carl was very unstable and given to extreme emotional outbursts. Barnabas's first motivation is for self-survival at all costs and unfortunately Carl was a major threat to that.
As far as Angelique goes: Wow! Wait to we get to 1970 PT. She's terrific as Angelique and her twin sister Alexis. I think Angelique was one of the main characters on the show and things sizzled when she was on. Especially in scenes with Barnabas. She didn't quite have the same sizzle with Quentin and I think that's only because he was used and discarded so easily by her.
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I'm not too sure that Barnabas would've been successful in making Carl forget what he knew. Carl was very unstable and given to extreme emotional outbursts. Barnabas's first motivation is for self-survival at all costs and unfortunately Carl was a major threat to that.
it's funny how we can all have different takes on things
i see carl as emotional and prone to outbursts and silly behavior but not unstable. i think he just wanted attention in a strange cold family and found his way to get it. also think his type would be easy to control
The problem with carl is I think he was only in a handful
of episodes(maybe 6) and we didn't really get to see
what he really was like. Karlen needed to leave and i think they just took the easy way out!
jennifer