DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '02 II => Topic started by: ProfStokes on October 30, 2002, 03:32:37 AM
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I really enjoy watching Quentin and Jamison's interactions in this storyline! Selby and Henesy play the scenes so well together and the relationship between their characters must be the healthiest in that household. Last week's episode where Quentin presented Jamison with the toy ship and today's scenes where he pretended to be a broken old beggar were so warm and lighthearted, a marked contrast to the general course of the show. They almost remind me of the Burke and David scenes in the early days of the show. While we've seen how violent Quentin can become, it's reassuring to watch how kindly he acts toward Jamison. I can almost believe that Quentin genuinely cares for him, but oh, how he uses that boy...
Quentin manipulates Jamison for his own gain just as he does everybody else in his life. In the episode where nephew and uncle were reunited, Quentin relied on Jamison's affection to keep him at Collinwood, bribing him with a present. Today, Quentin used Jamison to get Grandmama's will. Caring nothing for the boy's fears, he lied to him about a prophetic dream (after telling Jamison that he would never lie to him) and urged him to steal the will so that he (Quentin) could gain the family fortune. Later...
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Quentin employs Jamison in various black magic rituals. Certainly this can't be a sign that he really has the boy's best interests at heart. Yet, much is made in the 1897 storyline of Quentin's love for his nephew and their bond figures strongly in major plots further down the line.
My question is, do you all think that Quentin really does care about Jamison, or does he merely take advantage of the boy because he's one of the few people at Collinwood sympathetic to Quentin?
ProfStokes
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I think it is a little of both. Maybe Quentin doesn't think there is anything wrong with using Jamison to steal a will or participate in dark magic. Even though the boy protests he never flat out refuses and so Quentin may see his nephew as a willing co-conspirator. Unfortunately, the bond between Quentin and Jamison is dysfunctional too because of the way Quentin manipulates the boy.
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I think deep down Quentin has a soft spot for the boy.
says
VAM, who always wants to see the positve in a person
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I think deep down Quentin has a soft spot for the boy.
Maybe that's why David Selby named his son Jamision.
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My question is, do you all think that Quentin really does care about Jamison, or does he merely take advantage of the boy because he's one of the few people at Collinwood sympathetic to Quentin?
Hiya Professor...
Interesting observations and a good question.
Yes. I think Quentin truly loves Jamison. He's the only member of the family he loves deeply. You see it in his eyes when he looks at him, and in the way they interract. Yes - he uses him and gets him to participate in his dubious (to say the least - lol) activites, but it's always with the belief that Jamison will not be hurt.
If you remember, when Quentin arrived home, he insisted on seeing Jamison immediately. He wouldn't take no for an answer - saying that he promised, and that he ALWAYS keeps his promises to Jamison.
He didn't have to, if all he did was use Jamison to get back home.
Also, when Judith was trying to bribe Quentin to leave, Quentin made it clear that the only way he would leave would be if Jamison truly wanted him to.
Further on in the storyline their relationship becomes clearer when they're talking about the things they used to do together - just the two of them - going on hikes, etc.
SPOILER ---------------------
Plus, when Jamison's life was in danger, it was obvious Quentin would do anything to save him -- even if it meant having to marry Angelique. (Ackkk!!)
Yes - Henesy and Selby are great together. Very natural and loving. I think one of Henesy's finest moments is when he confronts Quentin about his plans to marry Angelique. His confusion, anger and deep hurt are brought forth brilliantly -- the genuine tears when Jamison says, "I hate you, Quentin....I HATE you!"
Great great stuff.
-CLC
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Quentin does indeed have a deep affection for his Nephew Jamison...
Although it is Quentin's greed and ambition to become Master of Collinwood that sometimes govern over his senses, leading him to use Jamison for his own ends... giving no thought Jamison will be affected.
I suppose he could possibly be thinking this all a game, in which Jamison is merely playing along.
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i also think that quentin really cares for jamison, but that will not stop him from taking advantage of his innocence, quentin is sort of a weasel, will go to any lengths to get what he wants, including subjecting him to dangerous black arts mumbo jumbo, to going to grandmamamamamamas funeral and running back to the Q to tell him she was buried, to petty thievery.
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I do like the fact that we are seeing this type of a relationship played out on the show. I find it refreshing. It is such a departure from all the seriousness of the previous years, it is like a novelty almost. The same with Carl and his "absurdness".
Quentin's & Jamison's loving (familial) relationship plays out quite genuinely on the surface but I can't get past Quentin using Jamison the way he is and labeling it as true affection. I don't know how to say it professionally but I think that if you truly love someone you wouldn't use them to do bad things to suit your own selfish (and wrong) desires, regardless of whether it hurts them directly or not. If you truly love someone, you leave them out of your wrongdoings. I think from Quentin's own point of view, he genuinely loves his nephew. But I don't think so. Not really.
dom (Who does not believe in, "Not guilty by reason of insanity".)
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Quentin's & Jamison's loving (familial) relationship plays out quite genuinely on the surface but I can't get past Quentin using Jamison the way he is and labeling it as true affection. I don't know how to say it professionally but I think that if you truly love someone you wouldn't use them to do bad things to suit your own selfish (and wrong) desires...
Yes but, here you're placing a value judgement on someone else's feelings and love for another. If we stand back and judge, yes -- we can say, "well, Quentin doesn't REALLY love the child because look how he uses him for his own selfish ends -- you don't really do that to someone you love."
What we see of Quentin so far, is a selfish, greedy, conniving, immature man. There have only been a few hints so far, of what lies below the surface. (Example: The scene yesterday between Beth and him where his manner is quite different - letting down his guard, revealing some disquieting emotions, wanting to talk. He's sincere when he says. "I need you."
Also the other day when he's talking to Judith and she accuses him of always hating her. There's a look of quiet sadness on his face when he replies that he'd always thought that it was SHE who hated him.)
Quentin's a complex character and becomes more multi-dimensional as Selby and the writers develop him.
ANYWAY, lol, from Quentin and Jamison's point of view, they love each other - their feelings are quite clear. At this point in Quentin's emotional maturity, (not very impressive LOL), he loves him as much as he's capable of loving him. Then of course, you can get into a whole discussion of how we use each other in relationships - the subtle and not so subtle ways. We always use the ones we love in one way or another - and usually the ones we love the most. I mean, I love my mother NO END and more and more each day, and I use the HELL out of her. It all becomes very complicated, but interesting when you start examining all this stuff.
I better stop here 'cause I'm going on too much. But suffice it to say, I've learned over the last few years not to judge someone else's love, but to accept it with an understanding of who that person is and what they are, and are not capable of.
OKAY EVERYBODY!!! Anyone feeling the need for analysis, I'm real cheap -- only $20 an hour!
Hey! A few sessions with me, and you'll definitely be a candidate for Wyndcliff! LOL
[silly]
-CLC
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I think that deep down in his heart, Quentin truly loves & cares for the boy. They share such a special bond with each other that's quite obvious. True, I don't condone his actions towards Jamison in making him steal the will from his Grandmother's coffin, or even some of his future actions towards the boy, but I feel that this is just the way that Quentin is. Everyone loves differently and while Quentin might be a little immature at times I honestly believe that he would be devestated if anything ever happened to the boy.
While all his wrong doings towards Jamison makes it somewhat hard to accept his love towards the boy, I really don't believe that Quentin would subject him to anything if he truly thought that his nephew's life was in danger of any kind. From what we've seen of Quentin so far you can tell that he is almost on the same level as Jamison is mentally. Or at least he pretends to be. I think this is one of reasons why Jamison is so fond of him. He knows how to talk to the kid in a way that no other adult in the household has been able to do so far.
In watching Jamison in some scenes with his father, Edward, it's obvious that he doesn't know how to talk to his own child. He doesn't listen to what Jamison has to say and is usually too busy to bother with him. Quentin, on the other hand DOES pay attention to Jamison, listens to what he is saying and knows how to talk on a level in which the boy understands and likes as well.
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First, as to Jamison, I always have fun trying to picture him being the father of Elizabeth and Roger. Of course, the fact that he looks exactly like Roger's son doesn't help!! We really don't know anything about their upbringing or what their father was like. Both Edward and Roger are rather stiff and stuffy. There's no way of knowing how Jamison turned out. It just seems so funny to imagine him growing up to be their father.
As to Quentin, I think he really does care about Jamison. He's not the most responsible person, therefore involving Jamison in some of the things you (Prof. Stokes) mentioned in the Spoiler part, and, of course, it's quite convenient for him to use him as with the will. He's the type to use anyone he can, I guess. But, I still think that he really does care for him. And, the ultimate explanation for what this story is all about revolves on that relationship.
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Cassandra,
I agree 100% with everything you've said. Quentin would never do anything he perceived as a possible risk to Jamison, and he WOULD be devastated if anything were to happen to him. And you're quite right about the way they communicate.
Also, from what we've seen of that household, Quentin gives Jamison the love and affection he doesn't get from his father - and the unconditional approval.
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HHHMMM¢â‚¬¦¢â‚¬¦Isn't there a legend that Lucifer was the most beautiful of God's angels? I think we've got that same thing going on here.
Quentin loves Jamison? Quentin cares for the boy? So he makes him lie, and he makes him steal, and he makes him a pawn in his twisted little game of "who gets the money" with his siblings.
Quentin uses Jamison because he can. The boy's a child, and unlike the grown-ups, hasn't figured out yet that Quentin is manipulative and deceitful, callous, cruel, and even violent. Ah, but he's also charming, and witty and very beautiful to look at¢â‚¬¦¢â‚¬¦and aren't we always surprised when evil isn't also ugly?
No one else shows Jamison any affection at all¢â‚¬¦.it doesn't take much to make an unloved, lonely little boy adore you, even if you're the devil in disguise.
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But suffice it to say, I've learned over the last few years not to judge someone else's love, but to accept it with an understanding of who that person is and what they are, and are not capable of.
-CLC
Very nicely said Connie...
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HHHMMM¢â‚¬¦¢â‚¬¦Isn't there a legend that Lucifer was the most beautiful of God's angels? I think we've got that same thing going on here.
Quentin loves Jamison? Quentin cares for the boy? So he makes him lie, and he makes him steal, and he makes him a pawn in his twisted little game of "who gets the money" with his siblings.
Quentin uses Jamison because he can. The boy's a child, and unlike the grown-ups, hasn't figured out yet that Quentin is manipulative and deceitful, callous, cruel, and even violent. Ah, but he's also charming, and witty and very beautiful to look at¢â‚¬¦¢â‚¬¦and aren't we always surprised when evil isn't also ugly?
No one else shows Jamison any affection at all¢â‚¬¦.it doesn't take much to make an unloved, lonely little boy adore you, even if you're the devil in disguise.
That was so well put , I'll second that.
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SPOILER
I think that much later in the plot. we see how much Quentin cares when he prevents Laura (on her return) from burning Jamison up with her. He also is very protective of Nora, another of her mother's victims, and when Nora grieves for her mother, Quentin is there to comfort her. I think I am remembering correctly -- after all it has been thirty years! Correct me if I am wrong.
Afan, who loves the rascal Quentin
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Quentin was so proud to see the look on Jamison's
face when he gave him that model of a ship!
( Anne who is craving for a scene with The Q-man
and is turning into some kind of crazed idiot as well
but LOVING IT ALL!!! LOVE ANNE : b :b
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This may have already been said, and probably far more eloquently, but I DO believe that Quentin loves Jamison. It's just that he doesn't understand that loving someone is an active thing, it isn't just how you feel. At this stage of the game, and for quite a bit of the 1897 storyline, I think Quentin is just too selfish and immature to recognize that loving Jamison *obligates* him to look out for Jamison's welfare before his own. But of course, when dealing with a vampire cousin, an evil Phoenix, hostile gypsies, a crazy wife, a werewolf curse, and assorted female cuties it's hard to put someone else's needs before one's own. ;)
I think also that in the 19th century, it probably wasn't uncommon for children to be treated much worse than Jamison is treated by Edward, Quentin, whomever. The way the Reverend G. Trask deals with Jamison is more in line with my understanding of how many children were treated 100+ years ago. Don't get me wrong - any child deserves better! Then too, the Collins family WAS always a little...how shall we say...dysfunctional?
:)
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I have to say that Quentin DOES love Jamison, as much as he is capable of love for another person. He is so self-centered that putting the child's needs and good ahead of his own purpose would simply never occur to him. But he is great at the show of love, when it it doesn't interfere.
Reminds me of my XH, actually. Wish he had been as gorgeous and as seductive....Oh no, I guess not, I might still be with him and that WOULD be scary.
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First, as to Jamison, I always have fun trying to picture him being the father of Elizabeth and Roger. Of course, the fact that he looks exactly like Roger's son doesn't help!! We really don't know anything about their upbringing or what their father was like. Both Edward and Roger are rather stiff and stuffy. There's no way of knowing how Jamison turned out. It just seems so funny to imagine him growing up to be their father.
Well, since Daniel was played by David Henesy and grew up to look just like Louis Edmonds, that is how I picture Jamison all grown up. Not that the two look anything alike, other than they both have a nose, eyes, etc....
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I agree with the fact that Quentin loves Jamison.
Its make me like Quentin even more because we are seeing the softer side of Quentin. Its make sense now why he wanted David so much.
Because maybe Quentin realized Jamison was the only one who love him no matter what Quentin did.
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Quentin loves Jamison? Quentin cares for the boy? So he makes him lie, and he makes him steal, and he makes him a pawn in his twisted little game of "who gets the money" with his siblings.
Quentin uses Jamison because he can. The boy's a child, and unlike the grown-ups, hasn't figured out yet that Quentin is manipulative and deceitful, callous, cruel, and even violent. Ah, but he's also charming, and witty and very beautiful to look at¢â‚¬¦¢â‚¬¦and aren't we always surprised when evil isn't also ugly?
Well, here you have the whole premise of ProfStokes' original question - the seemingly contradictory impulses within a character. We're forever trying to deal with the opposition of "good" and "evil" in a person. We've also been presented with that dichotomy in regards to Barnabas in earlier storylines. Oh! You know who else is a delightful study in seeming contradictions? Magda! So far, she's been presented as the greedy, conniving "gypsy" stereotype - holding out her hand before she'll do ANYTHING for ANYBODY. Then we see her sadness over the loss of her friend and mourning the fact that no one in the family gives a damn about Edith - only the money, and upset that Judith won't even let her view the body.
Anyway, what "qualifies" as love is an interesting discussion. Everyone's perception is different. Does Jamison feel loved by Quentin? Yes. Does Quentin feel love for Jamison? Yes. They both fulfill needs in one another. Someone once told me that you love someone for the way they make you feel. I've always thought that was an interesting observation.
No one else shows Jamison any affection at all¢â‚¬¦.it doesn't take much to make an unloved, lonely little boy adore you, even if you're the devil in disguise.
I think that one of the problems here might be the fact that a lot of us have seen 1897 more than once and can't separate the Quentin we see right now, from the Quentin we come to know later on in the story, in the present, and even in 1995.
The writers start him off as rather one-dimensional. Yes - "manipulative and deceitful, callous, cruel, and even violent", (and let's not forget incorrigible womanizer) LOL.
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But later on we're presented with a more sympathetic character - one who has a conscience, who goes to great lengths to save Edward and Jamison from Petofi's possession, who forms a friendship with Barnabas as they try to help each other, and who even forms a friendship with Magda - the person who cursed him to a life of torment. He forgives others and also seeks forgiveness for his own misdeeds.
So, it's sort of hard to look at him right now, objectively. We know he loves Jamison very much.
-CLC
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I also believe Quentin loves the boy and don't believe Quentin is evil(save that for Gregory and Evan) i'm with tripwire he is very naughty and immature would love to know the parent angle!
jennifer