DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '02 II => Topic started by: Luciaphile on October 25, 2002, 06:03:45 PM
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So I've seen this part of the show multiple times, but I'm watching it today and there's all the gabble about Edith Collins telling what "the secret" is.
Suddenly I had this image:
Edward: (eagerly) Yes, Grandmama? Grandmother, I'm here.
Edith: Edward? Edward, is that you?
Edward: (a touch impatiently) I'm here, Grandmama, what is the secret?
Edward: What is the secret? Grandmama, please tell me.
Edith: (sits bolt upright in the bed, leans over confidentially. Strains of Mrs. Robinson begin to air in the background) Plastics.
Luciaphil
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LOL Luciaphil
always wondered if when anyone heard the secret why they didn't go and open him up!
jennifer
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I have always disliked this plot angle. I think Joshua laid his son to rest and that would have been the end of it. I cannot see him having a warm fuzzy heart to heart with Daniel about this subject. Wasn't the will and who inherits enough intrigue without " The Secret"?
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I have always disliked this plot angle. I think Joshua laid his son to rest and that would have been the end of it. I cannot see him having a warm fuzzy heart to heart with Daniel about this subject. Wasn't the will and who inherits enough intrigue without " The Secret"?
SPOILER
Better that than to have to spend the night in the room!
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I just love old Isabella Hoopes delivery of that fabled line-
"The SEEEEECRET!!"
This storyline is my absolute favorite and it inspired many happy hours of Dark Shadows Improv with my grade-school friends, back in the day!
petofi
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Edward: What is the secret? Grandmama, please tell me.
Edith: (sits bolt upright in the bed, leans over confidentially. Strains of Mrs. Robinson begin to air in the background) Plastics.
YES! YES! ROFLMAO.
That's it! I buy it 100%. (And then after she utters the secret word, she heaves a sigh and expires).
-CLC 8)
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always wondered if when anyone heard the secret why they didn't go and open him up!
jennifer
And I'd like to know; if the secret is passed down from generation to generation, why wasn't Liz told from her father about the secret?
Dom
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And I'd like to know; if the secret is passed down from generation to generation, why wasn't Liz told from her father about the secret?
Dom
SPOILER....SPOILER....SPOILER....SPOILER...SPOILER..
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Because Grandmama takes the "secret" to her grave with her. :-)
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And I'd like to know; if the secret is passed down from generation to generation, why wasn't Liz told from her father about the secret?
Dom
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I hate, hate, absolutely hate, but really and truly hate time paradoxes. Because as it stands, Elizabeth would have learned the secret from dear old Daddy and theoretically should have known damn well who "cousin Barnabas" was when he came knocking on her door.
But I suppose it goes something like this: Barnabas shows up and alters the past (1897). Edith has a massive coronary and dies before she can pass on this little family heirloom. Edward, Jamison and therefore Elizabeth never learn the secret. However, there's also an argument that she would theoretically have known it because until he starts messing around with Quentin's I-Ching wands, history went like this: he got into his coffin in 1795/6 and didn't get out of it until 1966.
Of course, then there are those who argue that well, no, he did. By travelling back in time Barnabas screwed up the time continuum (sp?) but good and by stepping out of the box (really, almost like the TARDIS in a weird way) in 1840 and in 1897 really and truly altered the fabric of history.
Did I mention how much I hate time paradoxes?
Luciaphil
(who is only ever able to explain the whole Tasha Yar thing after she's had a couple of vodka gimlets)
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This whole "The Secret" plot makes no sense. First, Grandmamama was only a Collins by marriage so why would she know about " The Secret". SPOILER************************ Second, Daniel was crazier than a bedbug when we see him in 1840 so how could he tell anything to anyone and why would Ben let him. Lastly, I don't think Joshua would have told anyone.
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This whole "The Secret" plot makes no sense. First, Grandmamama was only a Collins by marriage so why would she know about " The Secret". SPOILER************************ Second, Daniel was crazier than a bedbug when we see him in 1840 so how could he tell anything to anyone and why would Ben let him. Lastly, I don't think Joshua would have told anyone.
I think it would go like this (and I'm theorizing here because Barnabas and his time-traveling screw everything up but good for our purposes here :) ). Joshua tells Daniel. Daniel tells either Quentin or Gabriel. Presumably Quentin. Edith either overhears (entirely possible, given her character) or is told by Quentin. Perhaps because Tad is a)dead, b)not around--he could conceivably have been fighting the civil war if he reached adulthood or c) her own children were not of age.
Luciaphil
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It is possible that even if Barnabas had not gone back in time Edith could have passed on without spitting out the secret to Edward.
Birdie
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Someone refresh my memory, please. How was "The Secret" handled during the 1840 segment? I still can't suspend my disbelief about tight-lipped Joshua spilling his guts to Daniel. I don't mind spoilers. Thanks.
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I've wondered how each person possessing the secret is fortunate enough to be of sound mind and body and knows just when to transmit the secret right before conveniently expiring.
Dom wondered why it is that Elizabeth wasn't told the Secret by her father. For those who don't like the "changed history" theories whereby the secret died with Grandmama (although I personally feel we have to accept that history *is* changed), here's an explanation that works well with my latest idea in "another thread": Jamison Collins (Roger and Elizabeth's father) may have known the Secret -- but died rather, er, unexpectedly before being able to transmit it to Liz ... (though he may have whispered it with his last breath to Betty Hanscomb!).
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This is for onyx treasure. I don't believe the secret came up at all during the 1840 storyline.
The time travel paradoxes are too much for me to try and comprehend so I just assume that the inconsistences are caused by parallel worlds occurying every single time there is time travel and back.
So ... for me, the secret doesn't come in 1840 because of all the changes in 1795 (or 1797 as they sometimes say) and 1895 travels back.
OR ... Daniel maybe told Samantha since Quentin was lost at sea and Edith overheard and kept it to herself. OR Daniel told Edith because Gabriel was too "sick" and Quentin was lost at sea. Edith didn't bring it up once Barnabas showed up because she would prefer that the whole family be wiped out anyway...except for her and her children.
Well that was fun.
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I've wondered how each person possessing the secret is fortunate enough to be of sound mind and body and knows just when to transmit the secret right before conveniently expiring.
Spoiler
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Grandmamama waited just wee bit too long.
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No...I don't recall the secret ever coming up in 1840.
There IS one scene with Daniel, Angelique and Quentin, where Daniel is recalling the strange killings and terror in the village, etc. when he was a boy, but he doesn't know what it was all about.
-CLC
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This whole "secret" thing makes no sense to me anyway. If this secret was so big and most definetely had to be told to a living family member, then you would think that Edith would have told someone much earlier than wait until she's on her death bed like she's doing now. OR, she would have written it down somewhere for future keeping.
How can you just trust one person with this if the secret is absolutely necessary to be told and passed down from generation to generation? What happens if that person is suddenly killed in an accident or something? It couldn't be that important then. Did Grandmama think she was so "imortal" and was going to live to a ripe old age and then be able to tell Edward the secret just before she dies?
Since the beginning of this storyline she's been telling everyone that she's on her way out and is too sick to do anything. Meanwhile, Edward was out of town and there was a good chance that he might not be back before she dies and yet she's still insisting that HE is the only one she can tell the secret to. Maybe Grandmama isn't as sick as she would have liked everyone in her family to believe she was!
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Poor Edward. On today's eps--10-28-- his frustrating efforts to pry the secret out of Grandmama--"Tell me the secret Grandmother. The secret!" were in vain. He couldn't learn the secret before [grim] came for Grandmama. Although Quentin may be on to it--he mentioned that someone else had been to visit Grandmama.
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I think Quentin meant Barnabas when he told Edward someone else had been to visit Grandmama.
I almost thought Edward would shake Grandmama in his frustration to get the secret out of her.
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Who do you suppose is the Daniel that grandmama "saw" in her room while Edward was visiting? And Does anyone have a clue as to why she would be afraid "to go" with him in particular?
One more; grandmama babbled on about being told the secret, wanting to live in the old house, etc. Did her ramblings help us at all figure anything out? I wasn't feeling well, (no pity please :)) and it was all I could do to get thru the episodes before collapsing into bed for most of the day. What was said is now all a big jumble in my head. (Not that I am ever able to keep the facts straight, well or not, lol).
Thanks in advance,
Dom
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Daniel was Edith's father-in-law. We don't know who his wife was. Who were the children of Edith and her husband ? (the parents of Judith, Edward, Quentin, and Carl). The writers seem to have written around that generation. I think Joan Bennett ( in her late fifties) was too old to be Quentin and Carl's sister. Perhaps she didn't want to be cast in a mother role to these grown children? It is hard to keep the facts straight. ?!?
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Who do you suppose is the Daniel that grandmama "saw" in her room while Edward was visiting? And Does anyone have a clue as to why she would be afraid "to go" with him in particular?
SPOILERS
I am the wrong person to be answering you, half of the time I get it wrong. But, my understanding is that she was talking of the grown up Daniel who was played by David Henesy in 1797. In 1840 he was an adult, played by Louis Edmonds and was Edith's father in law. I don't think she was afraid of him because he was dead, she seemed to think that a deceased ancestor would come to show her the way. She wanted a different one than Daniel, perhaps she feared Daniel would lead her to the WRONG resting place. He was a rather mean old cuss.
That's how I remember it and how I interpreted it today. Hope you get to feeling better soon!
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I don't know. Just seems to me, that since Barnabus is in a coma, that this is all just a dream. No real time travel at all.
Latisha
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I hate, hate, absolutely hate, but really and truly hate time paradoxes. Because as it stands, Elizabeth would have learned the secret from dear old Daddy and theoretically should have known damn well who "cousin Barnabas" was when he came knocking on her door.
Personally I rather enjoy puzzling out the time paradoxes. However, such a paradox does not necessarily have to come into play in this instance. If Barnabas had not interfered w/history in 1897, one might suppose that Edith did pass the secret along to Edward. However, being the stuffy and pompous cynic that he is, Edward may well have shrugged off 'the secret' as the nonsensical ramblings of an insane old woman and thought no more of it.
And even if Edward did learn and believe in the secret, he himself may never had the opportunity to pass it along to his son, Jamison. Perhaps his death was sudden and unexpected. Further, if he did pass the secret along to Jamison, it may have been Jamison who passed away without having the chance to pass it along to Roger or Elizabeth. There's enough of a gap between Edward and Roger/Elizabeth to still have lost the secret somewhere along the way.
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SPOILER************************ Second, Daniel was crazier than a bedbug when we see him in 1840 so how could he tell anything to anyone and why would Ben let him. Lastly, I don't think Joshua would have told anyone.
Actually, there is a quite logical explanation for this. Edith would have learned the secret from Gerard, who wanted it kept secret for obvious reasons, knowing how Barnabas would have interfered with his plans for Collinwood. Whatever became of Gerard in the original timeline, however, is another secret.
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Jamison Collins (Roger and Elizabeth's father) may have known the Secret -- but died rather, er, unexpectedly before being able to transmit it to Liz ... (though he may have whispered it with his last breath to Betty Hanscomb!).
That's always been my theory. Jamison simply croaked (massive heart attack; stroke; got hit by the milk truck) before he could blab. Or maybe Edward got his lights turned out before he spilled the beans to Jamison. And, don't forget, there's nothing to say that Grandmamamamamama didn't just suddenly assume room temperature before she laid it on Edward in the unchanged time-line. After all, when she went to the great beyond, she was hardly dating material for Roman Polanski. She was lucky if she made it from breakfast to lunch.
Gerard
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I wouldn't be surprised if Daniel (before he went cukoo for Co Co Puffs) despised Edith. He despised Gabriel, and in many ways Gabriel and Edith were alike.
Daniel was Edith's father-in-law. We don't know who his wife was. Who were the children of Edith and her husband ? (the parents of Judith, Edward, Quentin, and Carl). The writers seem to have written around that generation. I think Joan Bennett ( in her late fifties) was too old to be Quentin and Carl's sister. Perhaps she didn't want to be cast in a mother role to these grown children? It is hard to keep the facts straight. ?!?
Daniel's wife was, I believe, Harriett Collins who died (I think) in 1830.
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I think Daniel killed her and was afraid of her coming back at many points in the 1840 storyline.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Daniel (before he went cukoo for Co Co Puffs) despised Edith. He despised Gabriel, and in many ways Gabriel and Edith were alike.
Ain't that the truth. The 1840 characters are by and large a very messed up lot.
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One of the things that annoys Edith is that Gabriel won't leave Collinwood. She and Gabriel are very much second class citizens there. We get the impression that they're short of money and Daniel keeps it that way. She and Samantha certainly aren't chummy either. The one time Edith and Gabriel appear to be in sync is when it looks like Daniel's about to kick the bucket and they think they can inherit the estate.
Luciaphil
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Luciaphil Wrote:
She and Gabriel are very much second class citizens there. We get the impression that they're short of money and Daniel keeps it that way. She and Samantha certainly aren't chummy either.
And from the looks of things it appears that Gabriel isn't chummy with anyone or vice versa. What a match!