DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
Members' Mausoleum => Calendar Events / Announcements Archive => Calendar Events / Announcements '24 I => Calendar Events / Announcements '11 I => Topic started by: borgosi on February 12, 2011, 09:20:11 PM
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There's even a new DS book out with a front cover in the style of the classic Marilyn Ross books, You can even get it for your Kindle at Amazon. I don't know if it's any good but the point is that no one has stopped it. It's called "To Live Again: A Dark Shadows Novel" by Emily Hornaday. It looks like you can only get it for the kindle.
Why would they allow a new novel that is being sold, not given away, but not allow something that is free?
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I doubt that THE POWERS THAT BE...and not the ones that Angel Investigations works for...are aware of it. I bought the book and backed it up on my computer. I'm not turning on my Kindle's net functions until I read it. I doubt that Amazon will delete it from my Kindle. They did that with the Orwell books a while back and got smacked in the face with customer backlash. I'm not taking any chances though. Once I finish reading it, if I enjoy it, I'm going to see about converting it to PDF so that I can print it up. I'm told it's complicated but possible to do that. And yes, I'm well aware that I almost certainly broke copyright laws by buying this book. My defense, publish new, authorized DS books and I'll buy them! No money was lost on this. I almost never buy illegal, bootleg DVDs, but I'll make an exception for Depp's DS, if it's as good as I expect it to be. I'll see it several times at the theater. I'll see it again once or twice at the second run theater. I'll also buy the movie when it comes out, whether or not I already have an illicit copy. I'll buy a director's cut as well, if they put enough goodies on it. The bootleg will just hold me over. When it comes to DS, I'm not very patient!
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I would say that you're not very honest either but you just told us that, didn't you.
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I suppose it depends on how you define honesty. I'm known for keeping my word. I generally call them as I see them, and I have little regard for corporate America. I have nothing against making an honest profit, but I have seen all to clearly who coporations and big business exploit and degrade artists. I won't give a name, but I have a friend who receives no royalties from her records she worked on in the 80s. Her work has been issued, reissued, remastered, compiled etc etc. Corporations make big dollars on artistic works and often pay the artist very little by having them sign deceptive contracts and using creative accounting. She wholeheartedly approves the bootlegging of her own works.
I have bought Fleetwood Mac's Rumours on LP, 8 Track, cassette, CD, DVD audio, and the double CD. Warner Reprise executives were concerned recently that people are "stealing from them" by "ripping MP3s of their CDs for their IPods." Mick and Co. made their fortune from that record and the Warner Reprise fatcats are still milking it. Now they want to tell me that I can't use my own CD in any way I wish? It's this kind of greed that leads people to rip them off.
On the whole, I abhor bootlegging movies. I buy them very rarely, and I ALWAYS buy the professonal DVD when it comes out. I've probably bought 3 in the last 5 years. Star Trek was the last one. I have the DVD of the film. I think Hollywood will survive if I ONLY watch it 3 times, drag a group of 5 to it, see it in the 2nd run theater, and buy the DVD.
Ask around fandom about me. I think you will hear that I'm generous and my word is good. The name is Joe Escobar. If you want to label me dishonest, I can live with that. The opinion of a stranger means little to me when I have the good opinions of friends I've made over the last 30 years. Post whatever you want in answer to this, I've said all that I plan to say about this. If you want to discuss a campaign to save the Web Series, that's a different story.
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I want to apologize for offending you. I was wrong for suggesting that you are not honest. I have recorded CDs for my ipod and copied movies from TV. So the facts are that if you are not honest neither am I. I guess I took your post the wrong way but that doesn't matter. I should never have posted what I did. Again, I apologize with all my heart.
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I accept your apology Borgosi and also the possibility that I've been rationalizing some things that are less than honest. Mysterious Benefactor did point out that bootleggers would not exist without customers. If all of them were as willing to buy as I am, there wouldn't be much of a problem. Most are not. They buy these items instead of purchasing tickets and/or renting the film. They don't pay their way and everyone else suffers. Now, that may affect my decision whether or not to be patient with regard to owning the film, but I stand by my right to use and copy my own materials for my own use. This thread has been enlightening.
Thank you for resonding as graciously as you did.
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As for the novel on Amazon, do we know that it's not sanctioned? Just because there wasn't any fanfare before it appeared on Amazon may not necessarily mean that it isn't legit. After all, the soundtrack to the '91 Series was released last summer without any fanfare whatsoever. And I'd like to think that places like Amazon don't deal in materials that could be seen as copyright infringements. But who knows...
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I don't know for a fact that it's not sanctioned. You are correct MB; when I heard about the 91 soundtrack, I wondered if it was a "fan project" or bootleg. I was accustomed to hearing about projects in advance. It could be legit.
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There's also the fact that Amazon is saying the release is 'the first in a series of novels by Emily J. Hornaday based on ABC-TV’s classic gothic soap opera — “DARK SHADOWS.”' If the novel isn't legit, it would certainly appear to be more than a bit audacious for Amazon to have the policy that they know the first novel infringes on DS' copyright but they're just going to continue to be an outlet for the author to infringe on that copyright over and over again. Seems extremely odd if that really is the case...
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MB, you are right about it seeming audacious. The only thing that gave me pause, and still does, was the sloppiness they exhibited with the Orwell debacle. They took someone at their word that the works could be distributed because they were in the public domain. One would hope they would learn from the past, but I've found that entities that can be hoodwinked once can be fooled again.
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Well, one thing's for sure - it's going to be very interesting to see how everything associated with the novel plays out. And if Amazon really wasn't smart enough to check after having been burned in the past, the arm of the company responsible for verifying such things would seem to be run by a bunch of dumbasses...
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That story is fan fiction, and the difference from other works being sold by fans is that it's in ebook form. What's fascinating is that Amazon is selling it.
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Extremely fascinating.
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Well, I guess the question is, what is fanfiction? Once it's being sold in book stores, is it still fanfiction? Stephen King is a Dark Shadows fan, if he wrote a DS book would it be fanfiction? When does "fanfiction" become fiction?
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When does "fanfiction" become fiction?
I guess when the people in charge of the property, that its based on, back it up. (Like with Lara Parker's novels or 'Dreams of the Dark')
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Stephen King is a Dark Shadows fan, if he wrote a DS book would it be fanfiction?
That depends. Mark Rainey's fantastic The Labyrinth of Souls, which he offered for a time as a free dl (Harper Collins blew it on that one) is ff, whereas his Dreams of the Dark is not.
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Because of was a free download and one wasn't? Or did one of the ok of the estate? If something is public domain and a fan writes a story inspired by it and doesn't charge anything for other fans to read it, is that fanfiction? Or just free fiction? I'm not asking to be a smartass, I really want to know what people think. If a fan writes a story today and next week the story that inspired it goes public domain does that story go from fanfiction to fiction?
I would think that most writers that write stories inspired by other stories, are fans of the stories that inspired them. Is the difference rights or profits? And if not that what?
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If something is public domain and a fan writes a story inspired by it and doesn't charge anything for other fans to read it, is that fanfiction? Or just free fiction?
I think generally, if it's:
online or in a zine = fan fiction
Officially published = fiction
Take the book Phantom of the Opera, which is in the public domain. Some writers have taken to writing novels based on the characters & events, along with their ideas for possible backstories or things to come. Several have published books of these stories (fiction) & others just make their work available online or via zines (fan fiction). Doesn't mean one is better than the other, of course.
Or to open up another can of worms in the fiction vs fan fiction debate, just see S.E.Hinton's Hawkes Harbor for example. One could make a claim that it's both fiction (as it was published) AND fan fiction (as it's obviously based on certain fiction characters). Sometimes it's hard to draw the line.
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I agree and now with e-books being a way for published mainstream books to be put out there the line becomes even less defined. The classic example would have to be the film "Nosferatu", as I sure we all know, it was based on Dracula with getting the rights. The courts said all copies were to be burned. Lucky for us they didn't get all of them. But could that classic be called fan film? I would think the same rules would apply for books or movies.
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Borgosi, for what it's worth, my definition of a fan story is one that is done primarily for the love of the show. Money may change hands, but they are usually at cost ventures; no profit is made. If I were hired by Big Finish to write a DS script, I would be a fan, but I would be writing as part of an assignment approved by the owners of the copyrights. In my definition, that's not fan fiction. It's a professional piece of licensed workwritten by someone who happens to be a fan.
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If you as a fan are given the assignment of writing a story, for pay, without it being approved by the owners of the copywrite. When it then be fan fiction? I know that would a rare event but it could happen.
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I neglected to post this some time ago. Amazon is also offering a very good Jonathan Frid interview for 99 cents. It's part of a rather expensive book of horror interviews. I'll paste the information below. I thought it was well worth the money.
Product Description
This interview with actor Jonathan Frid (Barnabas Collins on TV's Dark Shadows) first appeared in Filmfax #83 (February/March 2001). An expanded version was later published in Halloween Candy (2001), incorporating additional material about Frid's childhood.
This Kindle ebook edition is the expanded version -- about 8,600 words.
Frid discusses his childhood, his early inspirations and school days acting, his Shakespearean work, Dark Shadows, Oliver Stone's Seizure, his one-man shows, his philosophy of life, and much more.
If you'd like this interview in print form, it's available in Thomas M. Sipos's horror collection book, Halloween Candy.
http://www.amazon.com/Jonathan-Frid-Interview-Shadows-ebook/dp/B004E113O8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1297641150&sr=1-3
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If it's published with legal permission from the copyright owner, it's not fan fic.
If it's based on a work that's in the public domain, it's not fan fic.
If it's a parody or critical analysis, it's not fan fic.
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Amazon is primarily a distributor. They do not have the resources to check the copyright rights or wrongs of any publication or item. That's up to the person who is working with Amazon to distribute the product. It could be legit but I don't recall reading about its existence in ShadowGram or elsewhere.
To answer the question about fan fiction - my understanding is that fan fiction is defined as fiction fans write to fill in the gaps or add to the "canon" of a story written by professional writers. Of course, fan fiction can and has wandered outside of canon in fandom. Fan fiction is created and shared within a fandom and if sold in a physical fanzine, the amount of the sale is normally just enough to cover the publication costs involved. Technically, it's a violation of copyright but in our universe, Dan Curtis Productions has looked the other way even to the point where fanzines are sold at the fests right in the dealer's room on open tables. Most fanfiction is written by non professional writers and shared on boards and mailing lists.
Nancy
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/191-8218707-4756164?ref_=sr_1_4&s=books&qid=1297660282&a=B004BG5R8Y&sr=1-4
Check out someone trying to sell one of Kathleen Resch's fanzines!
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$125.00!! Are they insane?!
And I had no idea that people could sell such stuff on Amazon. Through their partners I've seen used books, CDs, DVDs, etc. - but never old fanzines...
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And I had no idea that people could sell such stuff on Amazon.
Oh sure, there are lots of old zines for sale on amazon & other online book stores (I've purchased a few 'cheaper' ones there myself). The sites don't seem to mind their 'unofficialness', as there's always a market for them, old & rare as they are.
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I don't see a problem with 3rd party sellers selling fanzines as collectibles at whatever cost they think the market would bear. These were allowed/ignored for years by DCP and are now being sold as second hand collectible boooks. I would see a problem if someone were reprinting them and selling them. That would violate the DS copyright AND Kathy's and her contributors. Having said that, $125?? That is INSANE!!!
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Though regardless of what we both think, as you say, ultimately the marketplace will be the judge as to how insane the price is. All I know is that even though many issues of TWODS are quite nice, I certainly can't imagine paying anything like $125 for one. Paying even $25 for one would probably give me pause.
And I honestly didn't mean to imply that there's anything wrong selling fanzines on Amazon. I was simply surprised because I've never seen such things for sale there. But then, I mostly buy DVDs and Blu-rays and imported CDs from Amazon. It's probably been at least ten years since I've bought a book from them. And I've bought electronic equipment from them twice. But I've never bought anything else and have never even ventured into the other areas of their site. So, I suppose I'm not aware of a great deal of the stuff that they offer...
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I was curious about this book and emailed Jim Pierson. He told me today that the fan who wrote this novel got sale on Amazon was told before she could not do so and to remove it. I dont know how long ago that demand was made but the bottom line is the novel isn't legit and the author was told no by the DC estate.
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The book has been removed.
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I'm guessing we'll get a whole new series of books if the movie does well. I don't know if I'm gonna want 'em with all that's happening but I'm fairly sure we'll get 'em.
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I am all for the family or estate of Dan Curtis protecting what many of us think was Dan's greatest creation, but it sure seems that with this new movie coming out the "estate" is protecting it more than Dan ever did. I wasn't lucky enough to meet the man but nor do I claim to know what he thought about his fans but I don't think he ever gave them such a hard time. They have every right to do whatever they like with this but it does make one wonder if they are motivated by a love for Dark Shadows or a love of money. In the end I guess it doesn't really matter.
Maybe I need to change the quote below this before they come after me.
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The copyright protection that you're referring to is nothing new, borgosi.
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It just seems that when the fans were keeping the show alive the "estate" was more likely to look the other way. Word is they don't even want fan produced T-shirts now and I expect things will get alot worse as we get closer to the release of the new movie. Makes me wonder what will happen when they get their offical web-site ready.
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I can understand why the owners of the copyright were upset in this case. This was not a zine that's being sold at conventions or through the mail. The vast majority, if not all of those publications are immediately recognizable as a fan project. They don't look like conventional hardcover or paperback books. In this case, there was no attempt made to identify it as fanfic or anything like that In fact, the description implied that it was licensed property. That took a great deal of nerve. Also, with no printing or shipping costs, every cent that didn't go to Amazon was pure profit.
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there was no attempt made to identify it as fanfic or anything like that In fact, the description implied that it was licensed property. That took a great deal of nerve. Also, with no printing or shipping costs, every cent that didn't go to Amazon was pure profit.
Exactly. It's no wonder the estate wasn't happy. I was just saying to a friend the other day that offering the fanfic as an e-book on Amazon's Web site is today's equivalent of publishing fanfic as a book and selling it in a bookstore. DCP would have never allowed that.
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I'm ok with them pulling the book, I can understand them being hands off about DS. But I know fans who have told me that they have been told not to sell things that they were allowed to sell in the past at fests. This is what really gets to me. They don't want anything said about it to Jim so I can't say who it was but it did include t-shirts and photos of "Seaview" that were taken after the show when off the air. I could understand a new shirt that had never been at a fest. or a photo of the house that was taken from the show. But a photo that was taken with the blessings of the owners of the house? I shirt that was ok at past fests? That's going just a little to far.