DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '02 II => Topic started by: VAM on October 04, 2002, 04:01:34 AM
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In looking at the Collins Family Tree, you can see that Roger, Elizabeth, Carolyn, and David are of the Edward Collins and Laura Murdoch lineage. We see the results of the Quentin Collins and Crazy Jenny descendants. What about the characteristics of a Phoenix offspring? Comments?
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They like to smoke![smokn]
jennifer
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They like to smoke![smokn]
jennifer
You would have to bring up the FIRE aspect...
(http://www.dsboards.com/firefighterhose.gif)
I decided to take precaution this time!
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It's really rather a shame they bothered to bring Laura into the 1897 story line at all. Not only did they have to revise their earlier established Phoenix story, they sort of rushed through it as though Diana Millay were only available for a few weeks. Her part in 1897 seems sloppily thrown together.
The original Phoenix story in 1966 was very well thought out and executed in a 13 week cycle. I especially loved how she played both sides between Burke and Roger. Prior to deciding to make Laura a supernatural creature, it seemed as if they intended to reveal that David was Burke's biological son, not Roger's.
The Phoenix was supposed to have appeared as Laura Stockbridge in the year 1766. This would have precluded her ever knowing, let alone being married to Jeremiah Collins. She was reborn as Laura Radcliffe in 1866, which would have also prevented her from marrying Edward, unless she had done so when Edward was still a child! The Laura Murdoch Collins who appeared in 1966 was, at the time that story aired, the only one to have married a Collins man. Laura Stockbridge and Laura Radcliffe were not connected with the Collins family in any way, originally, and they should have left it that way.
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I always wondered, too, if there was any "genetic residue" of the phoenix in the descendants of Laura's progeny (meaning through Jamison, as apparently, we don't know if Nora ever married and had her own little firebrands). To their credit, Roger and David, and Elizabeth and Carolyn, all had firey personalities, but nothing else ever seemingly manifested. The possibilities could've led to some more storylines.
As for the discrepencies to the plots following Laura's reintroduction in 1897 (as well as how she did relate to Jeremiah back in the eighteenth century), chalk it up to the usual Dark Shadows woopsies. Time travel stories always created massive paradoxes and contradictions (for example.............BIT OF A SPOILER HERE..............since Barnabas was able to change history and prevent Quentin's bogeyman from haunting Collinwood in the present, when he returned to the present, there should've been no memory of it by anyone, but whatchyagonnado?).
Gerard
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I forgot something. If there was any form of "genetic passage" through the line, then David shoulda been filled with that burning DNA. Already, he would've possessed it from his father, Roger, who got it from his father, Jamison, who got it from his mother, Laura. And since David's pure-bred phoenix great-grandmother was also his pure-bred phoenix mother, the guy shoulda already been able, to some degree, to be very popular at a bbq where those briquettes just won't ignite, no matter how much lighter fluid you splash on them.
Gerard
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What I've noticed...occasional nasty temper, overt attraction to all things weird and/or supernatural, inclined to moodiness, don't seem to mind being alone and are not overly disturbed by occasionally finding themselves in the company of the long dead, the living dead, or the unusually hairy. And, do you ever notice that day, night, rain, shine, and regardless of the season - there is almost ALWAYS a fire blazing away in the drawing room [sure]...even when everyone is in bed except Mrs. J and then she simply turns out the light in the foyer and goes to her room.
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.....do you ever notice that day, night, rain, shine, and regardless of the season - there is almost ALWAYS a fire blazing away in the drawing room [sure]...even when everyone is in bed except Mrs. J and then she simply turns out the light in the foyer and goes to her room.
Makes you wonder how that House stood there unscathed for almost 200 years!!!!! No fire extinguishers....and I'm pretty sure I never saw a chiminey sweep come either!! [lghy]
Rainey
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....and I'm pretty sure I never saw a chiminey sweep come either!! [lghy]
Willie
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I always wondered, too, if there was any "genetic residue" of the phoenix in the descendants of Laura's progeny (meaning through Jamison, as apparently, we don't know if Nora ever married and had her own little firebrands).
That may not be how it works, however. Jamison and Nora, and later David, were not necessarily the offspring of "The Phoenix," but rather a mortal woman named Laura. In each case (1897 and 1966), a mortal Laura dies in a fire and from the fiery ashes "The Phoenix" is reborn. We do not know whether the mortal Laura has any knowledge of the Phoenix prior to the actual Phoenix itself being reborn.
In the case of Laura Murdoch Collins (1966) she seemed to have a perfectly normal, human life up until her death by fire in a Phoenix apartment. She was even committed to a sanitarium - not something the immortal Phoenix would have been afflicted with. (Presumably she was not allowed unsupervised access to fire in the sanitarium.) The Laura of 1897, too, died in a fire in Egypt before "The Phoenix" was reborn from those ashes and returned to Collinwood.
That she returns to claim "her children" each time is inconclusive in demonstrating those are actually her children. If you recall, the first time David sees Laura when she shows up in 1966, he proclaims that she is not his mother. Rather, it would seem "The Phoenix" merely takes the shape and memories of the mortal Laura from which it was born. It may also be the case that she/it tries to bring a new "recruit" with her everytime she checks out.
If there is any genetic connection, one could suppose that if David died in a fire he could be reborn as a Phoenix from its fiery ashes, but the story line does not suggest this.
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That may not be how it works, however. Jamison and Nora, and later David, were not necessarily the offspring of "The Phoenix," but rather a mortal woman named Laura. In each case (1897 and 1966), a mortal Laura dies in a fire and from the fiery ashes "The Phoenix" is reborn. We do not know whether the mortal Laura has any knowledge of the Phoenix prior to the actual Phoenix itself being reborn.
This would seem logical except for the fact that Laura seemed to be well aware of who Josette was and also considered her to be a threat, as if she knew all about Laura's past and what she was. Another reference to this would be that Laura was wearing the same locket around her neck that Josette was wearing in the Collins family history book. Also when Josette's ghost appeared to Laura at the cottage, Laura seemed to recognize her right away and knew who she was.
All this was changed of course when we ventured back into the 1795 storyline.
In the case of Laura Murdoch Collins (1966) she seemed to have a perfectly normal, human life up until her death by fire in a Phoenix apartment. She was even committed to a sanitarium - not something the immortal Phoenix would have been afflicted with.
I agree with you here, but sometimes wonder if that "Sanitarium" act was just a clever ploy on Laura's part just to have an excuse to get away from Roger and Collinwood.
If there is any genetic connection, one could suppose that if David died in a fire he could be reborn as a Phoenix from its fiery ashes, but the story line does not suggest this.
Laura was always trying to convince David to leave Collinwood and go away with her where they both could have "eternal life" so Im assuming that she meant that David would become the same as she.
What's more puzzling is that when Vicky, along with Frank Garner went to the old Tomb they discovered that there was yet another Laura Murdoch Radcliff whatever and was told by the old caretaker there that Laura and her young son David died by fire. The caretaker also said that young David had ran into his mothers arms and never once tried to escape, as if he wanted to die with her.
If this were to be the case, then David should have been able to "resurect" himself like she did and come back as a Phoenix. But of course she herself only comes back and this is what's puzzling to me.
It's almost as if a piece of the puzzle was never found. Supposidly a Phoenix is reborn every 100 years and since it was stated that Laura was once married to Jeremiah Collins, this would put the timeline at 1797, and since we know that Jeremiah was dead by that time, this couldn't be the case.
It is quite possible that Jeremiah married at a very young age as I remember Barnabas telling someone during the 1897 storyline that he was just a young boy when his Uncle Jeremiah was married to Laura.
It would have been interesting if the dates all matched and that the David to whom the old caretaker was referring to was actually Laura & Jeremiah's son.
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It is quite possible that Jeremiah married at a very young age as I remember Barnabas telling someone during the 1897 storyline that he was just a young boy when his Uncle Jeremiah was married to Laura.
It was my understanding that Jeremiah and Barnabas were close in age (you were to believe) and that is why they had a brotherly bond. The mention of the information in 1897 is not consistent with that of 1795 (so what else is new) storyline.
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If David was not Laura's real son, why would she be so eager to have him join her in the fire? The Laura in the 1897 storyline died in a fire several years(?) earlier so says Quentin. He believes that she died in that fire so distrusts the Laura that returns to 1897. But, he was practicing the black arts during that time so his disbelief is somewhat unbelievable to me. Also, I don't believe there is mention of a child burning with her during that time.
I too was disappointed in the Laura storyline during 1897 and felt that it was hastily put together leaving a lot of unanswered questions. I loved the original Phoenix storyline from 1966 and think that Diana Millay was magnificent as Laura.
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SPOILER...
What is interesting about the marriage of Edward and Laura is that the writers did not seem to know who Edward was to be married to when 1897 started. In the beginning of 1897, it is implied that Edward is married to Jenny and he had her locked away in the tower room due to her insanity and is trying to keep his children from knowing she is there. She even tries to kill him in what appears to be revenge for her imprisonment.
When Diana Millay was found to be available, they decided to have Edward be married to Laura instead and made Jenny Quentin's wife.
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This would seem logical except for the fact that Laura seemed to be well aware of who Josette was and also considered her to be a threat, as if she knew all about Laura's past and what she was. Another reference to this would be that Laura was wearing the same locket around her neck that Josette was wearing in the Collins family history book. Also when Josette's ghost appeared to Laura at the cottage, Laura seemed to recognize her right away and knew who she was.
All this was changed of course when we ventured back into the 1795 storyline.
But if we go with the Phoenix spirit theory thing, then the "Laura" who knows who Josette is/was would be the Phoenix spirit who knew Josette.
Besides no matter how you slice it, there was still a body in that morgue in Arizona that they found the locket on while "Laura" was cavorting around Collinsport wearing the same locket.
Luciaphil
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It was my understanding that Jeremiah and Barnabas were close in age (you were to believe) and that is why they had a brotherly bond. The mention of the information in 1897 is not consistent with that of 1795 (so what else is new) storyline.
They were suppose to be the same age Vam but as you said not first time they played with the storyline!
jennifer
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But if we go with the Phoenix spirit theory thing, then the "Laura" who knows who Josette is/was would be the Phoenix spirit who knew Josette.
Besides no matter how you slice it, there was still a body in that morgue in Arizona that they found the locket on while "Laura" was cavorting around Collinsport wearing the same locket.
Luciaphil
How would Laura know about Josette? If Barnabas was supposed to be just a boy how could Josette be there? Barnabas met Josette in Martinique and she came to Collinsport for her wedding. Angelique would have been there, too. I am completely confused and I have seen this part of the story before.
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How would Laura know about Josette? If Barnabas was supposed to be just a boy how could Josette be there? Barnabas met Josette in Martinique and she came to Collinsport for her wedding. Angelique would have been there, too. I am completely confused and I have seen this part of the story before.
Shhhhhhh! You're not s'pose to ask logical questions like that! This is Dark Shadows! Next thing you know, people'll start asking why Naomi's tombstone still says 1821 on it even though she cashed it in in 1796.
Gerard
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How would Laura know about Josette? If Barnabas was supposed to be just a boy how could Josette be there? Barnabas met Josette in Martinique and she came to Collinsport for her wedding. Angelique would have been there, too. I am completely confused and I have seen this part of the story before.
The idea of Laura in 1966 knowing who Josette is doesn't really make much sense. Neither the Laura who died in 1766 nor the Laura who died in 1866 would have lived during the same time as Josette, who was said to have died in 1822 prior to the arrival of Barnabas and the subsequent history revision.
The ghost of Josette, however, is originally presented as a sort of "Casper the Friendly Ghost" character prior to the introduction of Barnabas, and serves primarily as a protector to David. It's possible that the Phoenix is simply aware of her presense and her determination to protect David from her rather than having actually "known" her in life. It's also possible the 1966 Laura (pre-Phoenix) had a few run-ins with this spirit, and the Phoenix retains all of Laura's mortal memories. Don't know where she got Josette's necklace from; this would seem to imply she DID know Josette in life, but it's also possible Josette arranged for her to have this necklace or altered her portrait to include it just so Vicki would recognize it and realize something wasn't quite right about Laura. Josette's role in the Phoenix storyline was helping Victoria discover Laura's secret so she could protect David.