DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '11 I => Topic started by: MagnusTrask on January 23, 2011, 12:22:43 PM
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This thread can't help but to be full of spoilers, so I won't spoilerize them separately but just warn people here.
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Years ago I guess, I started a thread asking about Angelique's personal timeline. Then, I had a huge gap in my tapes from the middle of 1795 to early 1897. I thought it made sense for 1840 Ang later to become 1968/1897/1970 Ang. Some people kindly went along with me on that, but now that I have that gap mostly filled, I know the idea won't fly. Cassandra came straight from 1795/6. We know that. Every time we've seen Angelique since then, it's been a bit further along in her personal history... until 1840. 1897 raises interesting possibilities, since she didn't come by her own choice and we don't know how much time elapsed for her between 1968 and 1897, but she definitely is an Ang who was Cassandra, earlier. Earlier for her.
I'm practicing moderation in my use of analgesics tonight, so I'd better not try to post my current 1840 Ang theory tonight. Next time. I'd be glad to hear anyone else's in the meantime, though......
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I thought it was interesting that they made her the Angelique from 1795 and she didn't know that she would be living in the future. However, if Angelique came directly from 1795 to 1968 then I guess she should have known. Time paradoxes can be quite confusing to me. Although The Physics of Dark Shadows helped me understand them better.
I have to wonder if her death though changed all of her previous visits to Collinsport. Actually 1840 raises a lot of questions about other flashbacks. I am bit tired so I am not going to get philosophical, but this is a cool post and I will expound more on it later!
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I like 1840 Ang being of her time too, I just wish it made sense. Someone, maybe Lydia, had an idea about parallel alternate time lines, that this 1840 isn't the past of RT1970, but [spoiler]changing this 1840 seems to change our 1970/1, so this 1840 must be RT1970's past. Then again, we don't see much of RT1971.[/spoiler]
I have a Second Witch theory. Barnabas (consider this whole thread one big spoiler please everybody) throttled Ang in 1795. She was buried. Ang reappears as a ghost, causes more trouble. At some point, her body is found to be missing from her grave. Then 1795 ends with Vicki propelled back to 1967 or 8. A more corporeal Ang with black hair follows on Vicki's heels to 1968.
Presumably they had Ang's body disappear so as to explain, slightly, Cassandra as a physical being. Diabolos revived her, and helped her time travel. That doesn't explain 1840 though...
I say Diabolos (or his master, if he's just the front man) can take ghosts and reconstitute them if he wants, without the original body. If Daphne can come back, the devil can do it too I think. So Diabolos reconstitutes Ang's ghost and flings her toward 1968.
What about the missing body? If Angelique can get shot and reverse the effects, maybe her body can restore itself eventually too. If we think of a spirit arising out of the physical brain and body, a mind possibly being an "emergent property" of the brain/body, as a lot of people believe these days, then this restoration could eventually lead to an Angelique soul gradually reforming, perhaps even with some memories surviving. Judah did something like that, maybe.
I doubt Barnabas or Ben sprung for a very good coffin, in any case, an Angelique powerful enough to regenerate could certainly deal with a coffin lid and/or a few inches of dirt.
So one Angelique digs herself out, leaves town, and only comes back on their anniversaries. Technically there's another Angelique, but not in 1795/6 or for many years after. The second Ang that we know isn't going to exist for years and years (1968). That second Ang comes back to 1796 briefly, gets burned by Ben, then goes back to the future again. Of-her-time Ang meanwhile goes off to Hell, where Diabolos doesn't tell her about her other self, who doesn't exist at that point in time anyway, or Ang lives on the surface all those decades until 1840.
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All I can ever say on this topic is that when watching it back in the Sixties, it somehow made perfect sense. I now see how outrageously it flouts the continuity that had been established for Angelique. I think that at that point, Lela Swift was the de facto head writer orchestrating the storylines, the position that DC himself had formerly occupied, and some fan reported from an old newsletter from 1970 that it was Lela's idea to introduce a storyline involving a romance between Barnabas and Angelique.
On some level, I simply accepted that this Angelique was the same person we had seen before, but this time, instead of her knowing of all that had happened since 1796, she was the immortal Witch who had roamed the earth since that time. I don't think I actually remembered the lines that established that Angelique had been confined to Hell, first between 1796 and 1968, and then subsequently after her disappearance in 1968 and invocation by Quentin in 1897.
It actually makes even less sense that the Angelique brought back in 1897 would know and recall events from 1968. I suppose one could argue that Barnabas's use of the dangerous magic of the I Ching had not only propelled himself backwards in time; it had also created some kind of space-time warp that allowed for Angelique's reappearance from her time in '68, AND Julia's subsequent visit as an astral body (one of the most idiotic of all their ideas, given the rules said to govern astral travel, but don't get me started).
G.
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Thanks for that, Gothick. We have home video to blame for our noticing discontinuity... we can have one era fresh in our minds while watching another. (Too obvious a point I guess.) Anyway, I don't think Angelique needs an explanation for knowing 1968 while in 1897. She can send herself and others through time apparently, or her "master" can. Also, I think Ang's route through time (up through 1897) is: 1795>1968>1796 (where she's burnt)>1897.
Since in 1897 she's not as anxious to deal with Barnabas anymore, as a husband or enemy, some time has passed for her. Between 1796 and 1897 I'll say she's been in Hell. If my Second Witch Theory works, then she would meet herself in Hell, but never mind....
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DS did create paradox problems with travelling through, and altering, time, but here's my take on the whole thing regarding Angelique.
Original timeline: 1795/96, curses Barnabas, is killed by him, but because she is a powerful witch she does have a semi-immortality and is quickly resurrected; she leaves Collinsport for other parts of the world, creating Endora-ish mischief here and there, but sneaks back to Collinsport every once in awhile to check on her previous "work" and, finding Barnabas still in his coffin, she goes back to harassing Samantha and Durwood; in 1968 during her latest sneak-back, she discovers that Barnabas has been released and is cured so, to restore her curse, she disguises herself as Sarina, I mean Cassandra. When all that fails, she temporarily is punished by Diabolos and then allowed to go on her way but she decides to keep a wide berth away from the Collinses.
First changed timeline: see above until you get to 1897; Barnabas has gone back in time and Quentin, along with his shifty lawyer, cast that spell to bring forth someone to help in their battle against Barnabas and guess who they get? Why her? She probably wasn't planning to do one of sneak returns that particular year; she was probably somewhere else with Hexaba but the strength of the spell grabbed her, maybe because of her relationship with Barnabas. After everything is resolved, she goes on her way. But does she still can't stay away forever so, seventy years later, she still pulls her Cassandra schtick. But then, seeing how everything she did because of her obsession with Barnabas always backfires, she decides, this time for sure, to stay away and get herself a new lifestyle, so she decides to play mortal and ends up dating and marrying a total bore named Skye.
Second changed timeline: everything from 1796 up to 1840 - she sneaks back to check on Barnabas only to discover, because he's gone back in time again, that he ain't in the coffin. When, in 1841, she's turned totally mortal, she, well, we all know what happened to her. Back in 1971, she no longer exists. Or does she?
Gerard
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Trying to make sense out of Angelique's "rather" convoluted timeline throughout the centuries is sort of like trying to make sense out of the White House economic team's "on-going" economic strategy. [snow_huh] [help]
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Great thoughts from everyone. I wonder if 1840 changed all of it. I wonder if her being killed in 1840 stopped Cassandra from every showing up in 1968, 1970, and 1897? One has to also wonder if it changed Grandmama being around since Edith was killed. I kind of thought that maybe since we didn't see Edith buried or a funeral that maybe in fact she hadn't died and was revived. Sometimes in those days people were not always sure people were dead. I am going to continue to ponder all this while I go get some Excedrin Migraine! [snow_cheesy] And just for good measure I just recently watched 1840 and fast forwarded it through the I LOVE YOU ANGELIQUE scene with Barnabas and for some reason during that scene Grayson (not Julia) seems to be digusted to me, just my opinion of course. It always wants to make me barf. I have to say though if the show had continued I AM SURE Angelique would have shown back up at some point. I just read in a Grayson FAN CLUB Newsletter I got at Seaview during a Raffle, and this is from Grayson's lips, that 1841 was only intended to last for 5 months. So if the show had continued they would have probably returned to 1971 once they figured bought some time while doing 1841 and figured what they wanted to do with a future storyline!
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Taeylor Collins
On one of those 1840 dvds, actor James Storm (Gerard Stiles) mentioned that after he was "killed off" on the show, the management informed him that he would be called back for costume measurements in the expectation that he would return as possibly Gerard Stiles sometime in the future. Perhaps this means that the Dark Shadows Powers-That-Be/Were anticipated that the show would go on beyond April of 1971?
As to Angelique's presumed demise, I have heard speculation, that when Barnabas, Mrs. Stoddard and Dr. Hoffman returned home from Roger's, no doubt, fascinating speech at the Collinsport Historical Society, they were all shocked (but especially Mr. B. and Dr. H.) to see Angelique waiting for them in the Collinwood drawing room, sipping a brandy, and looking like the cat who swallowed the canary.
Bob
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Hey Bob...I saw that interview while viewing those eps and I put it with the Grayson interview and figured the same thing.
As for Angelique that would have been a pretty awesome development; although I think it would have been cool if she was gone for about six months and returned. I think that would have been pretty effective!
As for all the paradoxes; I will add more later when my mind is more fresh. 1840 being the last flashback surely does raise a lot of questions. I always wondered if Gabriel's children were Judith, Quentin and Edward then I remember that Edith wouldn't be Grandmamamaaaa (as Quentin said one time) HEE HEE I guess they were Tad's kids?
Also I wondered where Flora came from? Is she another branch of the family like Millicent was? Or perhaps Milicent recovered and had kids?
I need another Excedrin..
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Taeylor Collins,
Sometimes, the exact family relationships within the Collins family are as perplexing to figure out as those within the Walton family, and, possibly, even the Manson family! [snow_silly]
Bob
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Several body parts are tasking me tonight, and none of the fun ones, so I'll keep this short, limiting self just to the first comments, the only ones I dare read yet (at least until some pills kick in)....
I'd love to think that original-timeline Ang passed through 1840 w/o Barn, then lived up top or down below until 1968, when upon looking in on BC on their anniversary, found him alive. That's far less torturous than my theory. Wasn't it stated onscreen though, that Ang followed Vicki straight from 1795? If it was just an idea of Vicki's, that can be discounted.
Cassandra did seem thoroughly familiar with 1968, not freshly blown in from the 18th century.
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You make a good point, Magnus. A lot of the confusion about Angelique in 1840 stems from the belief that she went from 1796 to 1968 - but there's not actually anything on the the show that says that. Fans tend to assume that's the case because 1796 is the only time we'd seen Ang before the 1968 storyline, but it's not stated anywhere in the 1968 storyline that Nicholas and Ang met up in 1796. So, there's a possibility that they met up after 1840. And if that is the case, then Ang's timeline can make sense and it can also make sense that in 1840 she had no knowledge of the future or her future self...
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Doesn't some of that confusion stem from Angelique saying that it was from Vicki's ramblings in the past that she knew Barnabas existed in 1967/68? It's never stated that Nicholas existed in 1795-96, only that Angelique was allowed to return to re-curse Barnabas. He does get extremely pissed at her when her Dream Curse scheme failed to achieve its goal. Since Barnabas did strangle Angelique to death in 1796 and she was seen as a ghost, I always assumed that Angelique and Nicholas met up in Hell and cut a deal, enabling her to return in '68. This, of course, makes her existence in 1840-41 even more of WTF? than it already was. lol [8311]
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It's always dangerous to assume - especially on DS. [b003]
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I only thought that Angelique was alerted to by Victoria in the Revival. I could be wrong.
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It was also in the original DS. ;) The Robservations summary from the end of Ep #474:
... It's 1:45AM. Cassandra comes downstairs, walking without difficulty, and stares at Barnabas' portrait. "So many years, Barnabas, and I would never have known that you're free from your chains if Victoria Winters had not come from the past. You think you have escaped me even now. You may walk in the sunlight today, but you have not escaped! No, Barnabas, in time, in time you will find the curse back with you again!"
Though shouldn't that have been "come to the past"?
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Apparently I forgot about it in the original. I am getting ready to start 1968 so I will make note of it.
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Well, please - who can remember everything - especially after not having seen it in a while? That's the fun of watching DS - rediscovering what you've forgotten. [b003]
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TRUE! My mom asked me the other day what I was doing. "Watching DS" "Haven't you seen all of the episodes several times!" "YES MOM of course but I still enjoy them and it's like The Wizard of Oz I usually discover something new! Andbesides instead of two and half hours , there are 1225 original hours to watch!" "Okay baby. I think I would get tired of it!" "MOM, I haven't gotten tired of DS in 20 years, I am sure I will watch it till I die" "OH HONEY, I have no doubt! LOVE YOU!"
LOL
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I posted my theories on the Angelique timeline a few years ago, but it went something like this:
*SPOILERS*
1795
1968
1796 - She was sent back in time as punishment by the devil or Diabolos or whatever you want to call him (personally, I like Shirley), and destroyed by Barnabas and Ben
My theory here is that Angelique was revived by her master soon after these events. As punishment failing, she had her memory of the future completely wiped
1840
At some point after 1840, Angelique had her memory of the future restored
1897
1970
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Since 1840 drastically (at least theoretically) altered history, Angelique is apparently dead in the new version of events.
That said, when did Angelique EVER stay dead?! ;) For all we know, she made some new pact and was restored yet again.
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Sorry for the double post. Too late to edit. I didn't include the "Miranda years" here.
I figure Angelique is something of a reincarnation of Miranda, but retains memories of her life in the 1600s. I haven't read
'The Salem Branch' yet, but I'm assuming Lara goes with that theory as well.
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Was she a reincarnation of Miranda? I thought they mentioned that she was 150 years old at the beheading? She also mentioned that she was given safe passage out of America and in her words she said she went to Martinique and that is where she met Angelique. Of course we know this was a history rewrite (which of course DS did all the time and long lasting soaps do a lot today) if I am remembering correctly. Don't they mention that Angelique's mother was a healer though in 1795!?
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Yes. Countess DuPres said she had given Angelique a job because her mother had had such a bad reputation and Angelique had seemed embarrassed of her, even though she visited her frequently. [chkyb] Natalie also recalled that Angelique had been a boring or unimaginative child. LOL!
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Wasn't Angie mother also a servant of the Du Pres? I know she was in the Revival but I am blanking out on the original at the moment
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there are 1225 original hours to watch!"
I'm sure you meant to say episodes. [snow_smiley]
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I did! Thanks. I think this was my last post after a couple hours of posting. ;)
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In the beginning, Angelique's story started simple: she was born in Martinique in the late 1700s, learned voodoo from her mother, and went to Collinsport as a servant with the Dupres family. From there she traveled through time to 1968 (although she may have had a few stops along the way that we didn't see), to 1897, and to 1970.
Then in 1840 we get an Angelique who began life in the late 1600s in the New England town where Judah Zachery did his evil deeds. She went from New England to Martinique. In 1795 she went, as she did originally, from Martinique to Collinsport as a servant with the Dupres family. From 1790s Collinwood, however, she did not proceed to 1968. Instead she plodded through time at the usual rate, apparently, to get to 1840.
What, in the Dark Shadows universe, caused this change? I don't know, but I do know that the last time before 1840 in which we saw Angelique was a very interesting time for her: 1970.
At first in 1970, Angelique was happily married to Sky Rumson, and believed that Diabolos had kept his promise: if she could get a human to fall in love with her, then - oh, I can't remember the details, but she'd live happily ever after, or something. Then she discovered that Sky was a willing part of a scheme of Diabolos (via special agent Nicholas Blair) involving some creatures – the Leviathans – that even Angelique thought were horrific. Suddenly Angelique's on the side of the angels. Very strange. So she splits up with Sky and opposes the Leviathans, which kills the deal she had with Diabolos and also means that she must surely be on Diabolos’s bad side. And yet she is still able to perform witchcraft!
We follow Barnabas from our time band into parallel time, and when we come back to our time band a few months later, Angelique is gone. We get a mention from Quentin of the departure of Chris, Sabrina, and Amy, but he says nothing about Angelique leaving.
And that's as far as I'm going with this. It appears to me there could have been a major upheaval between Diabolos and Angelique in 1970, leading to a change in the fundamental facts of her existence, and possibly a few other fundamental facts as well – but if there was such an upheaval, then we saw nothing of it and know nothing of the details. So it's a big cloud that may not exist anyway, but it's the best that I can come up with.
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You may just have summed the whole thing up perfectly, Lydia. I'm still hoping for someone to convince me that Ang didn't time travel to get to 1968, though...
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Excellent post Lydia. :)
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i'm not very well versed on 1840 but perhaps barnabas somehow stumbled into the original,UNALTERED,turn of events.
the natural progression of years uninterrupted by constant visitations from time traveling vampires,ingenue governesses and lovelorn lady doctors. without all of these interuptions(and the ensuing chaos and changes brought about by these visiting outsiders)angelique simply stayed in her time(1795)and drifted about(unaged,of course)until the barnabas released in 1967 showed up. without vicki's 1795 visitation ang would never have showed up in 1968 or any of the future(or past)time periods.
in other words 1840 angelique simply followed an unaltered timeline. [snow_undecided]
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No, it doesn't make any sense--and I'm afraid that messing with the continuity to give us a different Angelique didn't make any of it more interesting or really less repetitive, either. It just makes Angelique's real history seem meaningless. Personally, I just blacken that part out as bad writing when thinking of Angelique's biography.
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In an unaltered 1795, Angelique would still have been strangled by Barnabas as the first victim of the curse, buried in the woods, and risen as a restless and vengeful spirit with sights soon set on Josette. Her first appearance was as a disembodied head, though Vicki's trial showed us she was capable of appearing human for a time and vanishing again at will. But by the end of 1795, her spirit was only able to strike out from the portrait-- the same one that will travel to 1968; this is what lead me to believe that by the time Bathia Mapes shows up at Collinwood, Angelique has already been consigned to hell. Before Vicki went back in time, who knows how long Angelique would have languished there, which is why I'm intrigued by your theory, mscbryk.
But in my heart, I don't believe there's an explanation for her existence as a human during 1840, just as there isn't one for either the surge in her powers (she's capable of lifting the curse, which the much more powerful Angelique of 1897 couldn't pull off) or the amazingly sudden change in her personality during that time period.
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another little bit of confusion for me...
i've been watching 1897 and in the episode where quentin fist conjures up angelique she asks what year it is. when told that it's 1897 she remarks what a "long time" it had been since she'd been at collinwood implying she meant the century between her time there in 1795 and 1897 not the three or so months since the last time she'd been there in 1968. and this angelique is the angelique who'd lived as cassandra and in the vampire state, right?
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But in my heart, I don't believe there's an explanation for her existence as a human during 1840, just as there isn't one for either the surge in her powers (she's capable of lifting the curse, which the much more powerful Angelique of 1897 couldn't pull off) or the amazingly sudden change in her personality during that time period.
Couldn't agree more. Angelique had second thoughts and tried to lift the curse in 1795/96 and was unsuccessful. "What is done cannot be undone," I believe was her ominous observation. And, in 1897, why go through the whole process of continuing Julia's "experiment"--after Julia was sucked back into 1969--if she had the power to simply lift the curse? We know Angie often went the long way about things, but that seemed to be a whole lot of trouble to go to when the end result would have been the same.
I'm one of those viewers that actually like 1995 and most of the set-up to 1840, but. to me anyway, 1840/41 itself was one long drawn out WTF. But I guess all the inconsistencies have kept us talking about it forty years later. Not to mention the reams of fanfiction that have been written by still befuddled fans trying to "explain" things.
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Her first appearance was as a disembodied head, though Vicki's trial showed us she was capable of appearing human for a time and vanishing again at will. But by the end of 1795, her spirit was only able to strike out from the portrait-- the same one that will travel to 1968; this is what lead me to believe that by the time Bathia Mapes shows up at Collinwood, Angelique has already been consigned to hell.
Very interesting theory. [thumb] In reality I honestly suspect that Ang only striking out through the portrait had more to do with DC not wanting to pay Lara Parker to appear on the show if they could work a way around it than it did with the writers implying anything actually having to do with Ang personally. But within the context of the show's plot where little realities like the unwillingness of an exec producer to pay an actress has no bearing whatsoever, it's a fascinating possibility to think that Ang only struck through the portrait because she was actually unable to interact in any other way...
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when told that it's 1897 she remarks what a "long time" it had been since she'd been at collinwood implying she meant the century between her time there in 1795 and 1897 not the three or so months since the last time she'd been there in 1968.
At some point after cursing Liz, her Master sent her back to 1796 where Ben took a torch to her in the tower room. Her next time on Earth is in 1897.
and this angelique is the angelique who'd lived as cassandra and in the vampire state, right?
Right (while in 1897, she knew David, Julia, and Chris' secret, etc.).
It just makes Angelique's real history seem meaningless.
Reincarnation seems the only plausible explanation for the otherwise major rewriting of her backstory. It was mentioned that in 1840, Angelique/Valerie recalls being a young servant named Miranda in Judah's coven, testifying at his trial, and more when previously, Nicholas said Angelique was born in 1774 and Natalie once recalled her childhood in Martinique.
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Here is a thought, couldn't the CEO of Hell, loved the fact that Angelique always lost with
Barnabas. Maybe there was a tracking spell that when ever Barnabas got close to caring
about someone, Angelique would have been sent back to cause problem. It is just like
the road runner and the coyote.
Lela was just trying to give a reason for DS to have a life after it went off the year. Just
think we have a whole industry of, did or didn't Barnabas love Angelique.
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But within the context of the show's plot where little realities like the unwillingness of an exec producer to pay an actress has no bearing whatsoever, it's a fascinating possibility to think that Ang only struck through the portrait because she was actually unable to interact in any other way...
Intentional or not, it very nicely set up her return (and one of LP's best entrances) in 1968, where a portrait and an evil laugh stand in for Angelique, and Roger even elopes with the thing before returning with his fleshed-out brunette bride. [snow_wink]
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Definitely!
It's just so sad that DC was too cheap to even used Lara's own laugh instead of some canned laughter from who the hell knows who who didn't even sound like Lara. But then, that was DC's MO to a tee. [snow_rolleyes]
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I was going to read all three pages of this thread, but after reading through only half of the first page my mind began to boggle and I had to stop before I went insane. lol. Honestly, trying to figure out some of the timelines that took place on this show is not only mind numbing but it's also suicidal. The fact of the matter is that the writers didn't pay much attention to continuity, as we all know, which is one of the best things about DS because it allows us, the fans, to continually debate exactly what happened.
Whatever the reason, I'm glad the brought back Angelique as much as they did because she was obviously a fan favorite and was the character who could throw a wrench into any storyline.
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Angelique was supposed to be the reincarnation of Miranda was my understanding.
I think that Angelique's path follows what we see on screen. 1795 to 1968 to 1796 to 1897, and then back to 1970 - and I think she lived thru all the years between 1796 and 1897 and then from 1897 to 1970 allowing for a more mature and mellow personality.
I think 1840 Angelique is the one who belongs in that time period. There is no answer that really works to explain it without inventing huge stories to explain it, which can be fun, but aren't offical. I think Angie just didn't really follow Vicki right away and hung around a few decades. This Angelique hadn't met Julia or lived in the 20th century yet.
Her death in 1840 would surely have been temproary and she was probably resurrected in the 20 th century with memories of both timelines. The audio drama sequels have her resurrected in the 80s with all her memories seemingly intact.
I think it's kind of a blessing that DS is so complicted that we never get it all figured out, I'd much rather have complex puzzles like this to wonder over than something wrapped up too neatly.
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Angelique had second thoughts and tried to lift the curse in 1795/96 and was unsuccessful. "What is done cannot be undone," I believe was her ominous observation. And, in 1897, why go through the whole process of continuing Julia's "experiment"--after Julia was sucked back into 1969--if she had the power to simply lift the curse?
Another point I nearly forgot about is that when Barnabas went back to 1840, he was no longer under Angelique's curse. He was a vampire at that point because Jeb had re-cursed him in the Leviathan story. Maybe the Leviathan curse was easier for Angelique to remove than her curse had been? Or perhaps Barn would have still been a vampire when he went back to 1971? We saw so little of the return to the present that it's difficult to say. I know many fans constantly wonder why--if he'd been free of the curse since 1841--he didn't age or crumble to dust when he returned to 1971. LOL! So many inconsistencies. But that's part of the charm of DS, I suppose.
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The writers had planned for Barnabas to still be a vampire in 1971. In fact, Louis Edmonds was seriously considering leaving DS, and along those lines the plan was formulated to kill off Roger after he found out about Barn. But, of course, we'll never know if Edmonds would have actually left or if Roger would have been killed off.
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Okay now I am confused. I have heard two different stories: Jonathan didn't want to play Barnabas anymore, Jonathan wouldn't play Barnabas as a vampire anymore just as a human. I don't want to get too off topic so someone please set this straight once and for all. I kind of like the thought of Roger finding out about Barnabas and his ghost haunting Collinwood like in the Sam Hall article.
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Frid had said that he didn't want to play Barn as a vampire anymore, not that he didn't want to play Barn. And that would have certainly complicated matters with the writers' plans for 1971. But what Frid really objected to was how TPTB wanted Barn to look when he attacked people. To say he hated it would be an understatement. And if you'll notice, once 1970 Barn inhabits 1840 Barn, he's never seen attacking anyone. So something similar may have been a compromise and that may have been the way things would have continued if the show had gone beyond 1841PT. Barn being a vampire could have been a plot point (Frid did love playing the whole addiction/secret angle - and I strongly suspect that playing a story in which Barn's secret cost Roger his life would have been really meaty for Frid), but he wouldn't have been going around attacking people on screen. Well, except maybe in extremely rare cases and far more subtly than he had in the past. But we'll never know...
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by 1970 the storyline for roger had grown pretty skimpy. louis edmonds seemed to do better during the time travel storylines by that point. so i guess it's not inconceivable that one of the "core" collins family members would be killed off.
what i do find impossible to imagine is barnabas doing the killing at this stage. considering the fuss that is made about him killing carl during 1897 and returning to his "evil ways" during the leviathan arc i imagine a huge fan outcry if he offed such an established and beloved character.
to add to the rumor mill i've always heard that edmonds was concerned about having to go out and find work again after five years when DS left the air. [snow_huh]
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The plan wasn't that Barn would kill Roger - a certain witch who wasn't quite dead was to do the deed. [wink2] But I have no idea how the writers planned to explain her resurrection because no one has ever explained that. But, of course, I doubt anyone would have seriously thought that 1841 would have ever been the last of her, so her return in 1971 wouldn't have exactly come as a complete shock to anyone. [wink2]
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Oh that is cool! Thanks.
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Or, instead of killing Roger off if he found out about Barnabas (because Mr. Edmonds wanted to leave the series), they could've just had him go bleeblableebla and pack him off to Wyndcliffe in the hopes that Mr. Edmonds would change his mind down the road. They could've even brought up his name every once in awhile, such as when Julia has to go back there to do some work, or when Elizabeth went to visit him with a bundt cake.
But, anyway, back to on-topic about Angie-Baby. I still think that after Barnabas gave her the pushing-daises in 1796, she was resurrected and would secretly return to Collinsport every few years or so to check on her handiwork (the 1840 storyline said she did). In 1968, she made her return visit only to discover Barnabas not only released but cured, so she stopped off at a hair salon in Bangor, got a new colored-and-permed do, and plotted how to get herself back into the Collins family so she could practice more mischief. Of course, being a super-powered witch, she didn't age. Rumor has it that Joan Rivers even consulted her.
Gerard
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But, of course, I doubt anyone would have seriously thought that 1841 would have ever been the last of her, so her return in 1971 wouldn't have exactly come as a complete shock to anyone. [wink2]
I think I mentioned this somewhere before. When I did my own Charles-Delaware-Trollish of what-happened-if-the-series-continued schtick, in a plot-line, the warp to present-day parallel time reopens and Barnabas sees Angelique there, frightened and confused, trying to hide and he crosses over to rescue her and bring her back. He discovers that, because of her human sacrifice of herself in 1841, this time the demonic forces don't resurrect her, but angelic forces. However, her "purgatory" was to be sent to parallel time along with the promise she would never use her powers again (they remain dormant, as a "test" for her - does she ever use them again? - maybe, maybe not in one of my other plotlines). Anyway, while she's trapped there, she is in hiding because the survivors from parallel time (primarily Quentin and Maggie) think she's their Angelique and hunt for her. The subplot invoves Quentin and Maggie, living in the former Loomis House (since Collinwood was burned and the ruins were razed to the ground), at each other's throats, both telling the returned Baranbas (who also manages to convince them that his Angelique is not their Angelique) that they are trying to gaslight each other to the point of murder. It turns out that it was actually the emotionally-distrubed Daniel who was doing it, traumatized by what happened to his mother and blaming his father and step-mother. And Roxeanne, thrilled to see her Barnabas back again, is thrown in for good measure. Anyway, all is resolved, Daniel is packed off to Wyndliffe, Quentin and Maggie are reconciled, and Barnabas and Angelique return to their own time (with Roxeanne vowing she will somehow find her Barnabas again - another later plotline?).
Gerard
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I hate the thought of killing off Roger....I would rather he'd been sent packing to Windcliff or better still send him on another extended business trip in the event Louis decided to come back.
As far as Angelique is concerned, I think she was the reincarnation of Miranda, she was simply 'reborn' with a new identity, Angelique Bouchard, in the 1700's. While Judah may have been responsible for teaching Miranda everything she knew as he claimed later on, perhaps when she was born again as Angelique, she had to learn them all over again, this time from the woman she knew as her mother. That's my take on it, at least.
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Digging this thread people!!
"Haven't you seen all of the episodes several times!" "YES MOM of course but I still enjoy them...
Taeylor that was too funny! Thats my mom too asking me about DS or Star Trek.... In the case of Trek I can at least say, "Yes mom, but these are the newly remastered versions with new special effects!!" I can hear her rolling her eyes over the phone even!!
I really figured that the 1840 Angelique was linear from 1795. The first thing out of her mouth was "Barnabas Collins was the only man I ever loved." Plausable I guess that she was stopping by to check on B, since he's obviously still very important to her. It seems that's something the '68 Cassandra would have never said since maybe she had 200 years of bitterness built up to be bent on one thing. Revenge! Who knows how long it was for her after being banished by the big 'D' that she re-appears in 1897. As that timeline progresses Barn and her reach a somewhat amicable agreement between themselves for coexistence.
In the words of Captain Janeway "Time paradoxes give me a headache!"
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For me I would have preferred the "all knowing" Angelique as apposed to the "1795 plus 45 yrs Angelique". Would have made the ending better, too.
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Thanks ROBOT QUENTIN. My mom doesn't roll her eyes but she doesn't "Get it" In fact when the Revival was off on hiatus or so I thought in the summer. I keep watching it over and over and my tapes were actually taken away for a month because I was becoming "obsessed" according to my folks. I was 13 at time. Perhaps they were right? HEE HEE I know of more obsessive fans than I though. I pointed out, to my mother and father, the girl who had changed her name to Josette Collins and the housewife who had permanent fangs installed. ;)
On topic. My friend wrote an excellent story in the first Fanzine I produced THE LARA ZINE. The story is called THE PAWN and it's about Angelique showing up in 1967 to check on Willie. Of course one has to ignore all the time jumping when reading this.
Ultimately she enchants Willie so that he will release Barnabas. Great story. I am not exactly adding any theories but I found this story to be interesting since she did make a pilgrimage every year since 1795.
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I would so like to cancel out any on-air remarks about Ang having followed Vicki straight from 1795, and make 1692 Miranda a previous incarnation. If A look in on the mausoleum every year till 1968 though, it explains why shje might have been around in 1897 "the first time" to get Beth [spoiler]all jealous[/spoiler]... but then there'd have been two A's the second time...
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Okay, I'm not quite certain if I'm heading off topic with this but here goes. There may or may not be two versions of Angelique in the contemporary episodes. While cassandra is at Collinwood causing trouble with the dream curse, it appears that at the same time Angelique is working as a model and attracting the attention of Sky Rumson.
Any theories on this?
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There's no history (as stated onscreen) in DS of a character time-travelling to a time she/he already exists, and living concurrently with her/him, as if two separate people, but I think that has to be what happened with Angelique.
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in the parallel-time topic recently someone stated that the writers seemed more concerned with what impact a particular situation would have on that day's episode than whether or not it fit into overall series continuity or made any real sense even within the DS world.
the reason for this being the presence of quentin and angelique in 1970 parallel time. the whole premise of the storyline was an alternate version of the "present" where the characters lead different lives based on making different choices. in some examples they follow through with this setup. for instance "hoffman" could legitimately be a variation on the julia of the present who became, for whatever reasons, a maid rather than persuing a medical career. but it's the same person.
however quentin and angelique don't legitimately have any counterparts in the "present". they are not actually extant. they only exist there through various supernatural manipulations but they are not truly "part" of that time.
however the impact of this storyline comes from their participation. it could be the same case with 1840. the writers just thought the impact would come from angelique's presence, the DUH-DUH-DUH!!! moment so to speak. it didn't have to make sense.
and of course there is the old chestnut that these episode were only supposed to be viewed ONCE. there was a presumption that viewers would simply "forget" the actual progression of events over time and just accept new twists the writers came up with because they was no way to backtrack or cross-reference anything. it's a cynical viewpoint but true. [snow_rolleyes]
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When comic book characters have conflicting, multiple origins, the solution is sometimes for the character to have given "false memories". This may work for Angelique as well. Which set of memories are untrue? Take your pick. And, since most of her info is presented by the Prince of Lies and other less than honest characters, it could be any of the many conflicting stories.
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[ghost_rolleyes]
Methinks folks are making excuses for sloppy writing, which was a real problem during the show's final 6 months.
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Methinks folks are making excuses for sloppy writing, which was a real problem during the show's final 6 months.
More like sloppy plotting I suppose. For me, "writing" isn't where the plot goes, but the particular words chosen for the characters to speak. If 1840 is just generally bad in every sense for the viewer, he/she will not want to bother "rescuing" it from its bad logic. Others of us who like 1840 for other reasons, despite some later plot blunders, will want to do this kind of CPR on it, to find a way to make it make sense. Put another way, yes, we're making excuses for sloppy writing or plotting, because we feel it's in our interest as viewers to do so.
Most of us who do this don't really think our fixes were anything the writers had in mind.
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Three characters who were established as being alive in future time bands were killed in 1840, with no explanation offered as to how these deaths affected those future time storylines.
You can't make it logical. Dan, JF & Sam should have been slapped on the rump for having so little respect for their audience.
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Three characters who were established as being alive in future time bands were killed in 1840, with no explanation offered as to how these deaths affected those future time storylines.
You can't make it logical. Dan, JF & Sam should have been slapped on the rump for having so little respect for their audience.
I know. Some clever fans have managed to get partway toward fixing things, though, in interesting ways. One fix is just letting history be changed. Everything past 1840 now happened differently from what we saw onscreen. In fact, I think the blunders in 1840 made it impossible for DS to continue in the present day in 1971, unless they were willing to start REALLY thinking out the consequences for the present, to the point where 1971 would become incomprehensible to long-term viewers who remembered the "present" from earlier. It would get pretty trippy.
Some blunders are unfixable, but other eras made those too. In both 1840 and 1897, Barnabas didn't get back into the box, so Willie couldn't have let him out in 1967 anymore. 1968's treatment of time-travel was often incoherent.
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I agree with you David, there is no rationalizing away these heinous acts of "continuicide."
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I agree with you David, there is no rationalizing away these heinous acts of "continuicide."
I should point out that in DS, changing history IS possible. We just never get to see what all the history-changing in 1840 did to the present. So 1840 screwed up later eras? Fine, let's see it onscreen! It might be interesting.
Most of the post-1897 storylines are hard to get through for me. 1840 isn't, because of writing (that is, how the characters react to events and the dialogue), atmosphere, characterizations, and many fascinating events that happen early in the storyline. Therefore, I'm powerfully motivated to try to "save" 1840, even if just partly, rather than turning my back on it. That seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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I'm hoping the audio dramas will fill in these blank spots. one of the CD dramas already explains how the stairway thru time works.
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Just a line to note that as far as I am concerned, the audiodramas are NOT original series canon. They are their own canon. One can consider them the same way one might consider fanfic--as suggestions with regards to explication of canon, but even well-written suggestions are only that--NOT canon.
It may be that as fandom evolves, this attitude will fall away and people will just see some kind of amorphous blob of everything that has ever been put out with the name DS on it--from OS episodes to the Gold Key comics to the Burton/Depp production and beyond. To me, each iteration is emphatically its own universe, its own canon.
I actually thought that the way the Stairway through Time worked was explained fairly lucidly in the excerpts from Quentin's diaries Julia read out in the drawing room in 1970. One of the most fantastical conceits of DS because they casually have Quentin anticipating Einstein's concept of space-time by around 90 years. It is the kind of thing that will appeal to the steampunk crowd if any of them decide to start watching the show.
G.
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The Burton film /comics etcetera are each their own canons, but I consider the audio dramas original series Canon because the original cast is participating.
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I like the Stairway explanation in Q1's diary, but while it fools around with space and time as Einstein did, Q1's idea was that time actually doesn't exist, and all there is is physical space. That's really interesting, creative, daring nonsense, and I love it. It makes me strain to imagine how such a thing could be possible. It has always seemed to mean to me that if you build and shape a staircase in just the right way, in exactly the right dimensions, taking into account every last detail and contour to the micrometer, or whatever, it could alter time.
The ridiculous thing is that the Stairway just ends up looking like a traditional set of stairs, with the usual decorative knobs and railings etc.. It really should have looked like the weirdest thing you've ever seen, and barely recognizable as a staircase.
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My best story I think I have ever written (not boasting but I am PROUD) for the 50TH ANNIVERSARY fanzine come from sloppy writing and plot holes. That is where you will find some of you greatest writing treasures!!
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I like 1840 as well so I try to save it myself. Parts are genius. Parts are a total train wreck. I just read a great story by Kathy Resch that totally fixed the Roxanne problem! PARADOX! Great novel!
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My best story I think I have ever written (not boasting but I am PROUD) for the 50TH ANNIVERSARY fanzine come from sloppy writing and plot holes. That is where you will find some of you greatest writing treasures!!
So did you fix those DS plot holes? Or did you add more holes, intentionally, because they lead to great writing?
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Although, it doesn't deal with 1840, I fixed said plot holes and made three storylines mesh together to make the show as a whole make more sense! ;)
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Cool. I keep having a fantasy of a ridiculously sped up DS parody, in which all the famous plot hiccups are resolved in a very forced way, in 5 minutes... or maybe one minute...