DARK SHADOWS FORUMS

General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '02 II => Topic started by: The charming Mr. Blair on July 28, 2002, 03:08:11 AM

Title: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: The charming Mr. Blair on July 28, 2002, 03:08:11 AM: Sometimes it is a bit annoying to see how much the original Collins have been dummied down since the supernatural change. Liz is aso weak and clueless. She used to be so strong. Roger has mellowed (perhaps for the better) but he is still a bit "in your face" at times.
With all the weird stuff going on how could they be so clueless? At least ( the seldom seen) little David should be figuring things out .
I supose the ignorence is helping to keep the show interesting., but sometimes you just want to jumo inside the TV and tell the characters to think back and rememebr what happened a while back -- ?!?
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: kuanyin on July 28, 2002, 03:46:39 AM: Yes, this is the unfortunate aspect of the show's success. It would have been nice if they had kept the strength of the early characters. I like David better when he is less homicidal, and Roger is better when he doesn't hate his son. But those are the only two positives that I can think of in regards to the changing of the original Collins.
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Angelique_s_Sis on July 28, 2002, 04:24:25 AM: :) I think even Carolyn changed from her usual snide remarks to a more thoughtful person (ie. regarding Adam). It's for the better, in my opinion. She can still hold her ground to some extent.

David seems to be the bravest of the entire family. However, most of the time - nobody believes the kid. He sees everything & everyone for who/what they are.

If Liz wasn't under that curse - she'd be stronger & Roger was probably devastated over Cassandra. Barnabas? I'm not sure. ?!?
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Luciaphile on July 28, 2002, 06:41:13 AM: I certainly agree with you (surprise, surprise). It might have given the show a much sharper edge if they had kept the "normal" characters with the punch that they had to begin with. Right now, they've got about as much strength as sheep about to sheared and it's just boring to watch.

The degeneration of the writing is noticeable and it's a crying shame.

Luciaphil
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Miles on July 28, 2002, 06:56:14 AM: Quote
I certainly agree with you (surprise, surprise). It might have given the show a much sharper edge if they had kept the "normal" characters with the punch that they had to begin with. Right now, they've got about as much strength as sheep about to sheared and it's just boring to watch.

The degeneration of the writing is noticeable and it's a crying shame.

I suppose its just plain easier to keep the majority of characters "in the dark" (ie. stupid). Leaving the characters with their original brains might have lead to too many uncontrolled variables: Liz not being patheticly docile, Roger realizing hes married to a strange witch, Vicki realizing anything. All of these could have lead to (eek!) an unavoidable situation that was tough to write their way out of. I'd guess the writers (in the just-get-it-done world of soaps) focused on what was working at the time and let the show get a little tattered around the edges. Either that or they were just totally inept.
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Luciaphile on July 28, 2002, 07:07:26 AM: Quote
I suppose its just plain easier to keep the majority of characters "in the dark" (ie. stupid). Leaving the characters with their original brains might have lead to too many uncontrolled variables: Liz not being patheticly docile, Roger realizing hes married to a strange witch, Vicki realizing anything. All of these could have lead to (eek!) an unavoidable situation that was tough to write their way out of. I'd guess the writers (in the just-get-it-done world of soaps) focused on what was working at the time and let the show get a little tattered around the edges. Either that or they were just totally inept.

Well, in the case of Sam Hall and Gordon Russell, I have to say that I think it was a combination of both.

A friend of mine thinks that at some point TPTB figured out their mainstay was kids and why bother trying to make it better.

I can see how that would happen, but I guess as someone who's done my share of high pressure jobs where no one really would care if I didn't push to do my best and I did anyway--I find that inexcusable. A good (fill in the blank of your choice) is going to do their best. It's what you should strive for. And they ain't striving.

Luciaphil
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: MrsJ on July 28, 2002, 04:42:45 PM: Quote
:)

David seems to be the bravest of the entire family. However, most of the time - nobody believes the kid. He sees everything & everyone for who/what they are.

David is not only the bravest, he is also the smartest!!

If Liz wasn't under that curse - she'd be stronger & Roger was probably devastated over Cassandra. Barnabas? I'm not sure. ?!?

Oh, I'm sure, lol. He was a much stronger character when he had an "edge". I'm afraid that they sacrificed character continuity and development in favor of the supernatural plot lines :(

MrsJ.
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: MikeS on July 28, 2002, 11:22:53 PM: Quote
Oh, I'm sure, lol. He was a much stronger character when he had an "edge". I'm afraid that they sacrificed character continuity and development in favor of the supernatural plot lines :(

Indeed they did, MrsJ, and in my opinion, it was a mistake. During the first year of the show, the members of the Collins family were all fascinating characters, well- written and developed. But as others have posted, they were dummied-down and put more in the background as the supernatural elements came to dominate, and new characters were introduced. A while back I posted that the show should have struck more of a balance between the supernatural and non-supernatural storylines. This would have allowed more use of the "normal" characters, and the chance for them to develop further and in a more consistent manner. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: VictoriaWintersRox on July 29, 2002, 12:39:20 AM: I agree..the Collins family was great during the first year. Too bad they got put into the background and were changed to adapt to the supernatural elements instead of having the supernatural elements adapt to them. So much more time was being spent away from Collinwood. During many of the present time periods after 1795 I don't think the actors portraying the Collins at the main house got to spread their wings except in the flash backs and the parellel times. Didn't one of the DS writers leave because he didn't like how the Collins were no longer at the forefront of the show?
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: The charming Mr. Blair on July 29, 2002, 02:15:12 AM: Since this is my first time around I am hoping that the time and dimension changes will bring about deeper characters. :o I can't wait for the next story line!!
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Cassandra on July 29, 2002, 09:16:22 AM: I agree with you. When I think of how strong willed they all were back then and then see how they are now, I can really see a big difference. Even Vicky was alot stronger then too!! During the Laura Collins storyline, I can still remember how fast Vicky got on her case, running all over the place just to find out any information she could on Laura. When Liz fell ill due to one of Laura's spells, Vicky seemed to suspect her right away and then did everything she could to protect David from his evil mother. Now, you hardly ever see her with the kid. (Is she still his governess?) Maggie too was alot wiser then than she is now. Hopefully, once this Adam thing is over with, everyone will start to "wisen" up again. ;)
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Daphne on August 01, 2002, 04:13:34 AM: Quote
I like David better when he is less homicidal, and Roger is better when he doesn't hate his son. But those are the only two positives that I can think of in regards to the changing of the original Collins.

LOL! NONONO!!!! He's so much more interesting when he's like psychotic!!!! *evil laugh* And Roger was much more ..... interesting too, but in a kind of different way. In a "WHY does he hate his son" kind of way, and ... well duh, cuz he thought David was Devlin's son [hey, they both had hair lol]. That was soooo much more interesting!!! Now the whole "we're trying to be a happy family, and all this supernatural stuff that we can't explain is going on, so we'll just ignore it" thing is just .... grrr!! Makes them all seem so stupid. There were always rumors about ghosts in Collinwood anyway, right? And Carolyn was SOOOOOOOOO much better when she was a %)(@* .... she was just so funnie! I loved it when she was going out with Buzz. Cuz it was just soo .... not what everyone wanted her to do. And now she's all like ..... sweet. [scrm] [puke] It's so boring!!!!! LOL .... *chills out* yeah okay ..... It used to be like, with Carolyn and Joe, they worked through Carolyn's problems [not having a father, the kids in school thinking her mother was a witch; etc] and now it's like Carolyn and Tony work through Tony's problems. And not that that's BAD ... but .... BAH!!! LOL I don't like it as much. *pouts*

The only real change I *LIKE* is that the cast became more familiar with each other, and they'll touch each other more .... like Carolyn and Liz will kiss on the cheek, or Vicki will kinda sorta pat Maggie if Maggie's hysterically crying. LOL Or something. I'm STILL waiting for Carolyn and Vicki to hug ..... but I just don't see it happening. LOL! :P Alright, I'm shutting up now! *hops off soapbox* *EVIL CACKLE* But I'll be back .......
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: VictoriaWintersRox on August 01, 2002, 04:22:18 AM: Quote

And Carolyn was SOOOOOOOOO much better when she was a %)(@* .... she was just so funnie! I loved it when she was going out with Buzz. Cuz it was just soo .... not what everyone wanted her to do. And now she's all like ..... sweet. [scrm] [puke] It's so boring!!!!! LOL .... *chills out* yeah okay ..... It used to be like, with Carolyn and Joe, they worked through Carolyn's problems [not having a father, the kids in school thinking her mother was a witch; etc] and now it's like Carolyn and Tony work through Tony's problems. And not that that's BAD ... but .... BAH!!! LOL I don't like it as much. *pouts*

*sigh* I miss the old Carolyn! :( She just isn't the same..she's all toned down now *nods head sadly* The old Carolyn was more fun to watch and she was more cheerful...now she's just depressing at times :( but still great. Carolyn and Joe should've stayed together IMO. I think they're relationship was more interesting then Maggie and Joe's but oh well.
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Daphne on August 01, 2002, 04:29:34 AM: Quote
*sigh* I miss the old Carolyn! :( She just isn't the same..she's all toned down now *nods head sadly* The old Carolyn was more fun to watch and she was more cheerful...now she's just depressing at times :( but still great. Carolyn and Joe should've stayed together IMO. I think they're relationship was more interesting then Maggie and Joe's but oh well.

AAAAAIEEEE!!!!! *runs around in circles* HAHAHAHAHA *dances* OMG You agree with me!!!!! Eeeeeveryone says that Carolyn and Joe should have broken up. So she had issues! [argue] *waves hands dismissively* EEEE!!! ^_______^ *GRIN*
Depressing is good sometimes, much more interesting than happy, IMO lol .... but .. aww *pat pat* I miss the old Carolyn too. She was soooo kewlll! We can throw a pity party ... and invite Carolyn ... and Joe .... and NOT MAGGIE!! Or we can invite her and throw her off Widow's Hill .... [fangs] *EVIL LAUGH*
CAROLYN AND JOE FOREVER!!!! THEY SHALL RULE THE WORLD!!!!!! *evil manic cackles* [frkoff] [flmthrw] weeeeheheheheheeeeee
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: VictoriaWintersRox on August 01, 2002, 04:43:01 AM: Quote

AAAAAIEEEE!!!!! *runs around in circles* HAHAHAHAHA *dances* OMG You agree with me!!!!! Eeeeeveryone says that Carolyn and Joe should have broken up. So she had issues! [argue] *waves hands dismissively* EEEE!!! ^_______^ *GRIN*
Depressing is good sometimes, much more interesting than happy, IMO lol .... but .. aww *pat pat* I miss the old Carolyn too. She was soooo kewlll! We can throw a pity party ... and invite Carolyn ... and Joe .... and NOT MAGGIE!! Or we can invite her and throw her off Widow's Hill .... [fangs] *EVIL LAUGH*
CAROLYN AND JOE FOREVER!!!! THEY SHALL RULE THE WORLD!!!!!! *evil manic cackles* [frkoff] [flmthrw] weeeeheheheheheeeeee

ROTFLMAO!! Hehehe or we can lock Maggie up in a closet with Nicholas *evil grin* Carolyn and Joe might not have been perfect but that's what made them so great Teehehehe *bounces off wall* Joe and Maggie were too perfect hehe. Depressing Carolyn is great and all but I wish she would grab someone and go to the Blue Whale. And take Joe with her. She can explain to Maggie later *crackles*
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Miles on August 01, 2002, 07:33:52 AM: Quote
Sometimes it is a bit annoying to see how much the original Collins have been dummied down since the supernatural change. Liz is aso weak and clueless. She used to be so strong.

And Vicki's quotable quote from Wednesday's 2nd episode: "I can't believe that this is happening to her. She's always been so strong."

Well, looks like its unanimous.
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Linda on August 01, 2002, 08:03:03 PM: Quote

Depressing is good sometimes, much more interesting than happy, IMO lol ....

Yes, angst *is* the conventional foundation of a soap opera. :)

However, IMO the DS writers got inexcusably lazy about writing many of their non-supernatural characters after the early episodes, and a lot of the dialogue is lethargic, to say the least (sometimes, even for the characters they were *interested* in writing). It's unfortunate, because even with witchcraft, vampirism, ghosts, and mad scientists at the fore of the storylines, the others who weren't in the know about everything that was happening didn't have to be made incompresensibly stupid or practically invisible for the plots to go forward...*especially* since they were dealing with the paranormal, IMO. So much of what happened in Collinsport was logically inexplicable that no one needed to be written as a moron to wonder what was going on.

In the very early episodes, the stories dealt with some very human problems in addition to ghosts, and much of the dialogue was exceptional. Liz was a formidable presence, even hiding out at Collinwood -- early scenes between her and Roger, and her and Jason, were priceless. Suddenly, she gets to wander around like a zombie whose biggest decision in life is the color of satin that will line her coffin.

Roger was much more interesting when he had all the makings of a sneaky, jaded, and morally weak man -- mocking, distrustful, and cynical (much like the one he got to play in AMC years later), but before we know it, he's a good guy who's always away on business trips.

Also, early on, both Maggie and Vicki had some intelligence. Vicki had decent reasoning powers, at least, and I've never figured out what prompted them to dumb her down to such a degree. Maggie was sassy as well as smart, yet by the time we get to the end of the kidnapping sequence, little -- if any -- of her original personality remains. Now I can see how trauma could prompt certain mental or behavioral changes -- and often only to a point, and for a limited duration -- but she was hynotized to forget everything that happened, anyway, so theoretically, she should have become the same old Maggie. Instead, more often than not, she gets vapid dialogue that makes her sound like she got her mind wiped.

There's a scene between KLS and Frid just before 1897 begins, in which Maggie says somethng to Barnabas that is so patently ludicrous that I nearly choked the first time I saw it.

Cheers,

Linda
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: jennifer on August 01, 2002, 08:57:13 PM: Quote
Well, in the case of Sam Hall and Gordon Russell, I have to say that I think it was a combination of both.

A friend of mine thinks that at some point TPTB figured out their mainstay was kids and why bother trying to make it better.

I can see how that would happen, but I guess as someone who's done my share of high pressure jobs where no one really would care if I didn't push to do my best and I did anyway--I find that inexcusable. A good (fill in the blank of your choice) is going to do their best. It's what you should strive for. And they ain't striving.

I think the idea of the most of the viewers being kids
hits the nail on the head when i watched it as a kid i could have cared less about those things just bring on the spooky things(And Chris J) that is why is was so interesting to watch it as an adult!I still say bring on the spooky things(and chris J) LOL! just kidding! do see things i never thought of as a kid and that what makes
it all the more entertaining something that is hard to explain to my family!Good Point Luciaphil!

jennifer
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: RingoCollins on August 02, 2002, 12:01:35 AM: Quote
Roger was much more interesting when he had all the makings of a sneaky, jaded, and morally weak man -- mocking, distrustful, and cynical (much like the one he got to play in AMC years later), but before we know it, he's a good guy who's always away on business trips.

..... Maggie was sassy as well as smart,

Cheers,
Linda

I would love to see some of these AMC's with Big Lou - do they run on this 'soap net'??? if so I will have to ramp up a lobby to get that channel added to our cable system. LE was great!!

and a SASSY Maggie again!.... now let me think about that for a while.....

sneaky, jaded, morally weak, mocking, distrustful, and cynical Ringo
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Dr. Eric Lang on August 02, 2002, 12:10:22 AM: Quote
Even Vicky was alot stronger then too!! During the Laura Collins storyline, I can still remember how fast Vicky got on her case, running all over the place just to find out any information she could on Laura. When Liz fell ill due to one of Laura's spells, Vicky seemed to suspect her right away and then did everything she could to protect David from his evil mother. Now, you hardly ever see her with the kid. (Is she still his governess?)

I was also surprised to see how "spunky" little Vicky could be in the very early eps. She stands up to Mrs. Stoddard on at least two occasions and accuses her of hiding knowledge about her paternity. After getting nowhere, she goes behind her back to see her lawyer, Richard Garner, in Bangor. And what of the sly little smile at Roger and Elizabeth, trying to pretend the portrait of Betty Hanscomb looks nothing like her, only to have Carolyn waltz in and ask Vicky where she'd had her portrait done!! ;D

Quote
Maggie too was alot wiser then than she is now.

I was so surprised to see "early" Maggie Evans making a play for Joe Haskell when she recognized that his relationship with Carolyn was turning sour.

Quote
Hopefully, once this Adam thing is over with, everyone will start to "wisen" up again. ;)

Unfortunately, it seems that post-1795, all the "present day" story lines are hopeless. (JMHO.)
:-[
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Dr. Eric Lang on August 02, 2002, 12:13:35 AM: Quote
I would love to see some of these AMC's with Big Lou - do they run on this 'soap net'??? if so I will have to ramp up a lobby to get that channel added to our cable system. LE was great!!

SoapNet only airs currently running episodes of All My Children, unfortunately, as the show has deteriorated beyond recognition IMHO. I would love it if they would show some old episodes from the 80's when Louis Edmonds played Langley Wallingford so deliciously, but unfortunately that isn't too likely while AMC is still on the air. I doubt ABC Daytime wants viewers to be reminded of how much better the show used to be. :P
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Linda on August 02, 2002, 01:01:50 AM: Quote
I would love to see some of these AMC's with Big Lou - do they run on this 'soap net'???

I WISH they did! I would love to see LE play Langley again...especially when he's new to Pine Valley, and is just starting to romance Phoebe...and then when he finds out he's on the hot seat because Myrtle knows who he *really* is. :D :D I think the early period was my favorite, but he was fabulous throughout his run on the show.

Cheers,

Linda
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Daphne on August 02, 2002, 10:29:28 AM: Quote
I was so surprised to see "early" Maggie Evans making a play for Joe Haskell when she recognized that his relationship with Carolyn was turning sour.

*grumbles loudly* It was turning sour, but yeah it STILL COULD HAVE WORKED OUT!!! *grumbles* Maggie ..... grrrrr ..... >:( Don't you have to mush grapes to make wine? Their relationship was in the mushing sour pruning stage that no one really likes, but it would have turned into wine eventually!! Honestly! Grrrrrr .... *goes off to write a FF* *more grumbles* She should have listened to Sam when he told her to STAY OUT OF IT!!!!

~The cynically oreo-stuffed Daphne :P
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Joeytrom on August 02, 2002, 07:44:22 PM: Has All MY Children ever had Langley die off camera (due to the death of Louis Edmonds) or is he mentioned at all anymore?
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Luciaphile on August 02, 2002, 07:48:40 PM: Quote
Has All MY Children ever had Langley die off camera (due to the death of Louis Edmonds) or is he mentioned at all anymore?

I think the last time Edmonds appeared was when AMC was doing their big 25th anniversary show, which would have been 1995.

After that they were having Phoebe (they finally put Ruth Warrick in a wheelchair, thank God, it was pretty painful viewing there for a while. I swear to God, they were just sort of propping her up on the set) or Brooke occasionally refer to him. They haven't killed off the character, no.

Luciaphil
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Midnite on January 06, 2006, 08:16:57 AM: Quote from: Joeytrom on August 02, 2002, 07:44:22 PM
Has All MY Children ever had Langley die off camera (due to the death of Louis Edmonds) or is he mentioned at all anymore?

Joeytrom,

Kosmo was kind enough to scan these pages from the October 25, 2005 issue of Soap Opera Digest. The 3rd Q&A provides details about the acknowledgement of his passing.

(http://www.dsboards.com/images/LangleyWall.jpg)
Title: Re: Sometimes I wish the original Collins kept their moxie
Post by: Joeytrom on January 06, 2006, 11:52:08 PM: Thank You :)