DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '09 I => Topic started by: MaggieEvans on May 23, 2009, 08:58:26 PM
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I'm bringing this from another topic... I'm certainly enjoying discussing the characters!
examples could certainly be joan bennett playing elizabeth as if she were victoria's mother.what joan brought to that lends the situation certainty to many fans even though it never actually gets spelled out in specifics within the scripts.
Elizabeth is another character that I've often wanted to write and develop in fan fiction. What confuses me about her is that it's sort of implied that she's actually Victoria's mother. She keeps the secret of what she believes is Paul Stoddard being buried in the basement of Collinwood, she doesn't leave Collinwood for 18 years because of this, yet later as the show progresses, she falls victim to some of the oddest of curses and spells, like she's some kind of an easy mark. How can someone so strong be controlled so easily? It makes me wonder if somewhere in Collinwood there's a room that stores hundreds of Kirby vacuums, Mary Kay cosmetics, and Fuller brushes, simply because she can't say no!
Opinions?
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love your comment about liz's failure at sales resistance! [ghost_cheesy]
it's true that elizabeth often ended up on the wrong end of some bad magic - particularly at the hands of angelique. based on my observations, it doesn't seem like liz from the supernatural days of the show was as strong a character as the liz of early dark shadows. obviously this is the writers fault, or maybe dan curtis's fault? but the end result is the same - she ends up victimized several times. but she's still a favorite character of mine. maybe just because i really like joan bennett.
i love knowing that ms. bennett chose to play the character of elizabeth collins stoddard as if she were victoria winters' mother, it maybe isn't as apparent in those early shows (which i was recently fortunate enough to finally get to watch), but in some of the later shows, you really see how much liz cares for victoria, in much the same way she cares about carolyn.
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I disagree that in the earlier shows Joan didn't play Elizabeth as Victoria's mother; the entire storyline of Victoria's selection for governess was a huge hint of Victoria's origins. Of course, Elizabeth's fondness grew as the show went on. What I would like to hear in fan fiction is possibly the identity of Victoria's father . . . . [toothy9]
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I dunno - in some of the earliest (pre-Barnabas) episodes, Liz does not take well to Vicki's constant questioning; she gets pretty hostile with her on a couple occasions, and even threatens to fire her. Of course, that might happen with a long lost daughter, maybe Liz was trying hard to overcompensate so that no one would guess her secret? While it's clear in the early storylines that Elizabeth knows something about Victoria's background, and isn't willing to tell anyone (including Roger) what she knows, have to say I'm among those who find those early episodes to have a very ambivalent feel both in terms of writing and acting about the true parentage of Victoria Winters. A little later on, particularly after the 1795 storyline, I agree that Joan played Liz very much as if she was Vicki's mother.
The character of Elizabeth Collins Stoddard is endlessly fascinating to me. She seems to be an illustration of that old adage "still waters run deep." Seems like there is always another layer with the woman, as if you can never really know her. Joan Bennett was really terrific in playing this character, but then she was good with all her DS characters.
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From where I sit, I always thought that Elizabeth would tend to over react to Vicki's questions because she is her mother. I think that's the entire reason. And the reason I think this is because Elizabeth has kept so much to herself, that if one little secret gets out, that will open the flood-gate for everything else to be exposed. She had grown accustomed to keeping secrets. We don't know if Paul Stoddard is Vicki's dad, or someone else. How long was Elizabeth married to Paul before Carolyn was born? Could Elizabeth have actually cheated on Paul?
Inquiring minds want to know!
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ISTR Roger being incredibly nasty to Victoria on a number of occasions but by post 1795 he was visibly quite fonder of her and considered her a member of the family. I've always wondered if, in one of his soberer moments (off screen) he guessed why Liz had brought Vicky to Collinwood, and simply said nothing about it, the only hint showing in how he treated her much better than in the early years of the series. Alternately erhaps Roger did talk to his sister about Vicky off screen and Liz confided in him.
Would love to have seen Liz reveal herself to Vicky and seen that scene between Liz and Roger in a flashback.... :)
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I like that idea about Roger figuring it out, Nelson Collins. It works for a number of reasons, and would be very like Roger.
Here's another idea though: what if we play it the other way, and she's ROGER'S daughter, perhaps by Betty Hanscomb. I remember seeing that idea somewhere, and turning it over a few times without finding anything that shot it down.
Jeannie
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...or how about a flashback with a young elizabeth played by alexandra.
dreamy. [love10]
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I can totally see that!
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I like that idea about Roger figuring it out, Nelson Collins. It works for a number of reasons, and would be very like Roger.
Here's another idea though: what if we play it the other way, and she's ROGER'S daughter, perhaps by Betty Hanscomb. I remember seeing that idea somewhere, and turning it over a few times without finding anything that shot it down.
That gets pretty weird if you go down that road. Especially since at one point he dates Vicki....not that it worked out too well...
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do we really feel comfortable saying that roger "dated" vicki?
i've been watching 1966 and the idea of that sort of gets thrown around for a few weeks,like so many red herrings,without actually coming into fruition.
apart from a trip to the cannery and an excruciating night at the blue whale(where roger was simply involving vicki to mask other motives)i can't really recall a "date".
b.t.w nice to have you back luciaphile.
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Well, that's true. Actually the whole thing is kind of ick...with or without a family connection. My favorite part of the "date" is the reaction of Joe, Maggie, and Sam as in a when the heck did that happen and what in the name of all that is good and holy is she thinking? kind of way.
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I thought a lot of the explanation for Elizabeth's odd change of behavior might lie in her need for focus. One gets the impression that she had had a complex life even before we met her, and that the whole Paul-is-in-the-basement business was (maybe) how she emotionally maintained some kind of equilibrium. With that gone, she felt liberated but also adrift. Carolyn by that time was less of a problem, while Roger had thawed out a little and Victoria helped turn David into something resembling a human being instead of a hell hound. So perhaps that lack of focus made her more susceptible?
As for Victoria's past, take your pick. Maybe she was Paul Stoddard's daughter, or Roger's, or perhaps the child of an illegitimate offspring of Jameson Collins!
Hmmm...what if she were the daughter of Quentin, somehow? In which case, any future husband (and especially child) would have a nasty surprise waiting... Eventually. One can imagine the scenario... Quentin knocks up some girl, who goes the Collins family -- presumably Jameson, who arranges for the whole thing with the orphanage, etc. Yeah, that would work. It would be evil and convoluted, but since when is that a disqualification...?!?! [ghost_smiley]
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I remember hearing speculation somewhere that Betty Hanscomb was Jameson's daughter, and Vicky was Betty's child by Paul. Maybe Betty could have been played by Joan Bennett as a dual role?
But for me, Liz is Vicky's mother. I just wonder who the father is? Jason is the most interesting choice imo.
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Hmmm...what if she were the daughter of Quentin, somehow? In which case, any future husband (and especially child) would have a nasty surprise waiting... Eventually. One can imagine the scenario... Quentin knocks up some girl, who goes the Collins family -- presumably Jameson, who arranges for the whole thing with the orphanage, etc. Yeah, that would work. It would be evil and convoluted, but since when is that a disqualification...?!?! [ghost_smiley]
LMAO! Your idea just made me think of an evil idea I had. Stand Quentin Collins and Hawkeye Pierce side by side and tell me some Collins didn't leave a by blow behind in Crabapple Cove. [ghost_cheesy]
Jeannie
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My candidate for Vicki's father is Paul Stoddard. From what was aired, I think the resolution would have been that Paul fathered Vicki in a torrid "affair" (that could have actually bordered on rape) with Betty Hanscomb. I think that Liz must have had some emotional tie to Betty--perhaps it was as simple as they were around the same age and played together as little girls--and felt obligated to help Betty conceal the pregnancy and when the time came, find a home for the child.
I have to confess, though, that I've always liked the theory that Liz was really Vicki's mother. It comes out really strongly as a subtext of many scenes the two had together.
G.