DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '26 I => Current Talk '02 II => Topic started by: Philippe Cordier on July 04, 2002, 03:47:47 AM
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Not sure when this episode aired since I was behind on my viewing (and unfortunately didn't get the VCR set for the days I was at the festival ... that chess scene mentioned elsewhere with Professor Stokes and Julia sounds really good -- I don't remember it from the previous viewing but I must have it on tape from then.)
Anyway, in Episode #546, Nicholas removes Angelique's powers, telling her "You are no longer a member of our coven," and saying that she is now only a woman "born in Martinique in 1774." I didn't remember this from my previous viewing, but it is crucial biographical information about Angelique. She was 21 in 1795.
I love these tidbits, but it just isn't reconcilable with what we learn in 1840, i.e. that Angelique was formerly Miranda du Val, who lived in 1692 (I think it was). The sequence also makes clear that she did not die and was not later reincarnated as Angelique on Martinique!
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Add it to the long list of continuity errors I guess! :D
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The sequence also makes clear that she did not die and was not later reincarnated as Angelique on Martinique!
I thought the tidbit of info was interesting too but i'm not certain how you could conclude that she wasn't Miranda reincarnated. . . I know this is something the writers dreamed up nearly 3 years later. . .but just because Nicolas did not mention it. . doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. . .in my universe anyway. . .
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I thought the tidbit of info was interesting too but i'm not certain how you could conclude that she wasn't Miranda reincarnated. . . I know this is something the writers dreamed up nearly 3 years later. . .but just because Nicolas did not mention it. . doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. . .in my universe anyway. . .
Yes that's what I think too...it might be like
[SPOILER]
the Carlotta Drake/Sarah Castle thing from Night of Dark Shadows
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Wow -- I don't remember hearing that either. Love how you learn something new after watching so many times. However like Victoria and Julia I still believe that Angelique is a reincarnation of Miranda.
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Wow -- However like Victoria and Julia I still believe that Angelique is a reincarnation of Miranda.
Same goes for me WileyS. I have always felt that the Angelique of 1795 was a reincarnation of Miranda Duval.
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I always thought the Miranda-Angelique connection was kind of tacked on as an afterthought and that it didn't make a lot of sense in terms of continuity.
Luciaphil
(who also finds the birthdate extremely suspect ;) )
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Add it to the long list of continuity errors I guess! :D
:) I agree. I think Angelique was Miranda's reincarnation.
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I thought the tidbit of info was interesting too but i'm not certain how you could conclude that she wasn't Miranda reincarnated. . . I know this is something the writers dreamed up nearly 3 years later. . .but just because Nicolas did not mention it. . doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. . .in my universe anyway. . .
There is nothing in the current storyline that precludes Angelique as being the reincarnation of Miranda du Val. However, when I said: "The sequence also makes clear that she did not die and was not later reincarnated as Angelique on Martinique!" I was speaking of details that were given in the 1840 storyline and 1692 flashback.
If you listen to that sequence carefully, you will learn that Miranda did not die and was not reincarnated as Angelique. Rather, she gained immortality as Miranda. The details aren't clear how she then "transformed" herself into Angelique (the storyline implies that all she did was change her name and move to Martinique).
Unfortunately, the 1840/1692 storyline precludes reincarnation as a possible explanation.
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I don't find any problems with Miranda coming back or being reincarnated or transformed or whatever as Angelique. She keeps disappearing, dying, and so on and coming back as Angelqiue, so it seems quite possible that she could have come back and used a different name.
The only thing in the series that makes it seem impossible is back in 1795 when the Countess talks about her and mentions remembering her as an "uninteresting child" - so presumably they recall her as a child and growing up. I just don't see her being "reborn" as a baby and actually growing up again, although I suppose that's possible.
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The only thing in the series that makes it seem impossible is back in 1795 when the Countess talks about her and mentions remembering her as an "uninteresting child" - so presumably they recall her as a child and growing up. I just don't see her being "reborn" as a baby and actually growing up again, although I suppose that's possible.
That's what I find so strange Josette. The Countess spoke so clearly of how she had known Angelique from way back when and even had mentioned of knowing her mother and how she use to sell potions on the Island.
Also, I could understand her gaining immortality as Miranda but what gets me is that when she arrived at Collinwood in 1795 she was a mortal woman who practiced witchcraft, only to die by strangulation by Barnabas Collins. It was only after dying that she seemed to gain immortality thus returning again in the present time as Cassandra. It all does seem a bit confusing and I wish that the writers had been more specific as what Angelique's origins really were.
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I could understand her gaining immortality as Miranda but what gets me is that when she arrived at Collinwood in 1795 she was a mortal woman who practiced witchcraft, only to die by strangulation by Barnabas Collins. It was only after dying that she seemed to gain immortality thus returning again in the present time as Cassandra.
Although that seems to be the case, we don't know for certain that she was a "mere mortal" when she arrived at Collinwood in 1795. She is "killed" or destroyed a number of times subsequent to these events, too, I believe ...
It all does seem a bit confusing and I wish that the writers had been more specific as what Angelique's origins really were.
Agreed.
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I love these tidbits, but it just isn't reconcilable with what we learn in 1840, i.e. that Angelique was formerly Miranda du Val, who lived in 1692 (I think it was). The sequence also makes clear that she did not die and was not later reincarnated as Angelique on Martinique!
That's just it, though: it's not necessarily supposed to be reconcilable. What happened in parallel time doesn't have to be consistent with that of regular/normal/reference (take your pick) time. PT is all about different paths/choices the characters took as opposed to the time-travel story of 1795.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
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That's just it, though: it's not necessarily supposed to be reconcilable. What happened in parallel time doesn't have to be consistent with that of regular/normal/reference (take your pick) time. PT is all about different paths/choices the characters took as opposed to the time-travel story of 1795.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
That's fine for PT things and I quite agree. However, the Miranda part was in 1840 regular time, so it SHOULD be consistent with the other RT stories. The Miranda part might be consistent, but other things - i.e., the ages of Ben and Daniel Collins, etc. don't quite fit with their 1795 introduction.
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That's fine for PT things and I quite agree. However, the Miranda part was in 1840 regular time, so it SHOULD be consistent with the other RT stories. The Miranda part might be consistent, but other things - i.e., the ages of Ben and Daniel Collins, etc. don't quite fit with their 1795 introduction.
LOL! You're right -- I goofed! I had thought the Miranda thing was PT. I'll shut up now... ::)
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When things don't add up or make sense on DS (which, as we all know, isn't a rare phenomenon, but that's one of the reasons why we love the show), I just settle it for myself in my mind. The way I look at it, I take the origin of Angelique Bouchard the way Lara Parker chronicled it in her novel, and view Miranada Duval as a preincarnation of Angelique. There, problem solved.
Gerard
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There is a scene in Angelique's Descent where she is travelling via stagecoach to Collinsport. She is looking out at the land and gets the feeling that she was there before...something about it looked familiar. This is a possible reference to her past life as Miranda.
Isn't Lara Parker now writing a new novel about Angelique and Judah Zachary? Perhaps this will set right the continuity problems with Miranda and Angelique.
Though, I believe that Angelique is a reincarnation of Amanda also.
Joey
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Although that seems to be the case, we don't know for certain that she was a "mere mortal" when she arrived at Collinwood in 1795. She is "killed" or destroyed a number of times subsequent to these events, too, I believe ...
Obviously they originally intended that Angelique was born in 1774 in Martinique - and then much later, when they did the 1840 story, they re-wrote their own history and said no, she had actually been around a great deal longer than that.
I don't buy into the "Miranda is reincarnated as Angelique" theory - for as you point out they are explicit in 1840 that she IS Miranda, not a reincarnation of same. I justify the history embellishment thusly -
Miranda was involved with the Collins family long before 1795. She had already been acquainted with them as far back as the 1600's during the Judah Zachary affair. After that little fiasco she moved away and re-established her identity elsewhere, perhaps numerous times, all along keeping tabs on the Collins family of Maine. Perhaps it was her dream to one day marry into that family. Or perhaps she wanted vengeance against them for some reason.
Her appearance in Martinique may have been a calculated move on her part to re-establish herself within the Collins household, by posing as a maid to the woman who would marry Barnabas. Natalie's memories of Angelique as "an uninteresting child" are vague enough to suppose that a 20-year old is a child to a woman Natalie's age (I know my own parents refer to people in their 30's as "kids"). Either that or Angelique merely cast a spell on the duPres family making them believe they'd known her all along.
As for Angelique's "mother" - was this woman her real mother, or was she her "mother" like Nicholas is her "brother?"
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Excellent job of disentangling this conundrum, Dr Lang ... You're fleshing out the bare bones of what I've proposed in the past based on a "close reading" of the 1840/1692 events.
I've given exactly the same interpretation as you regarding Countess du Pres's comment about knowing Angelique when she was "an uninteresting child," though I didn't take the time to repeat myself here in the interest of hearing others' thoughts. Like you, I've also suggested that the woman referred to by the countess as Angelique's mother may not actually have been her mother ... or was that you in a discussion about this a year or two past? In any event, reading your explication of the matter does tend to make me agree with myself ... ;)
A story that I have pages of notes for but haven't completed proposes that Angelique left the American colonies for Europe before coming to Martinique.
Joeytrom, I asked Lara Parker about the Miranda - Angelique - Judah Zachary question at the festival in New York last year. In response to my question, Ms. Parker revealed for the first time that she would be dealing with the subject head on in her next novel.
A final thought on Angelique's numerous deaths and reappearances: I'm beginning to see these more and more as resurrections -- which may surprise some posters here since resurrection is often thought of as a Christian concept standing in contradistinction to the concept of reincarnation. I'm not trying to promote Christianity; I'm just reading the evidence the writers give us. In support of my view of resurrection vs. reincarnation in the case of Angelique, we'll shortly be seeing the scene which I have identified previously as Angelique's parody of Christ's resurrection. So far as I know, I'm the only person to have pointed this out.
For those who dislike Christianity mixed with their Dark Shadows, I would also submit that resurrection is not a concept exclusive to Christianity. Resurrection occurs in pagan myths. One variation of this is the Phoenix.
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Just out of curiosity, Vlad -- where in 1840 does it make explicit that Angelique is not the reincarnation of Miranda, but Miranda with a new name? When I was writing a DS novel in early 1997, I studied that time period because I wanted to make sure that Miranda had or hadn't become Angelique eventually, and I honestly don't recall any reference to the issue of reincarnation either way.
Nicky
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Just out of curiosity, Vlad -- where in 1840 does it make explicit that Angelique is not the reincarnation of Miranda, but Miranda with a new name? When I was writing a DS novel in early 1997, I studied that time period because I wanted to make sure that Miranda had or hadn't become Angelique eventually, and I honestly don't recall any reference to the issue of reincarnation either way.
Nicky
Nicky - I have some notations regarding this marked in my episode guide that I can check for you. I don't know how extensive my notes are, but I know that I marked the specific episodes where the dialogue indicated this. I'll post what I find based on my notations, though I'm not sure what evening I'll be able to do this.
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I'm afraid I haven't had time yet to check on the information Nicky asked about, but I thought I would mention that I bought Marcy Robin's and Kathleen Resch's novel "Island of Ghosts" at the DS Festival in Anaheim. I've gotten only about a third of the way into it, but the basic setting is that shared by Lara Parker's "Angelique's Descent." Both novels assume Angelique being born and growing up on Martinique in the late 18th century. In Ms. Parker's novel, I had some difficulty accepting her proposal that
*SPOILER*
Angelique and Josette were sisters. The revelation was made about three-quarters through "Angelique's Descent," then the subject drops from sight and is never dealt with in any further depth (in fact, I think it's barely even mentioned again). I vastly prefer Robin/Resch's handling of this (the idea originated with them). They introduce this early in "Island of Ghosts," and so the whole relation between Angelique and Josette is explored and it obviously affects everything Angelique does from then on.
I also like their treatment of Angelique's mother (who, in their view is Angelique's real mother), which seems authentic and realistic. The entire novel, from what I can tell, has an air of authenticity about it that really surprises me, and the quality of writing is very high.
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For those who dislike Christianity mixed with their Dark Shadows
I'm sure that there are some who don't. And I know that there are some who do, as I am one of them! Personally, I think as long as we speak respectfully, there should be no need for apology just because a subject is mentioned. I'm not yet feeling the need to find a Christian Dark Shadows site though.... ;)
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Are you still out there, Nicky?
When I began watching DS during its last run, I was intrigued by references made by posters here (actually the VN board) regarding Angelique's previous life as Miranda du Val. Several posters stated that Angelique was the reincarnation of Miranda. Since I've always been fascinated with the idea of reincarnation, I looked forward with anticipation to this revelation. In the meantime, 1897 came about with Josette's reincarnation as Kitty Soames, a.k.a Lady Hampshire.
Finally the much anticipated storyline - 1840 - came up. I became suspicious around episode #1140 when Valerie (Angelique) told of her testimony against Judah Zachary back in 1692. Angelique had lived in 1692, but so far no mention was made of reincarnation. Then with episode #1173, I noted in my program guide: "Valerie/Angelique/Miranda again recounts her history as Miranda" (note: this is not mentioned in the Pomegranate program guide). Again, there was nothing here that sounded close to reincarnation.
Finally, the clincher was episode #1197. Unfortunately, I didn't take the time to transcribe any of the dialogue, but I noted in my program guide: "Episode makes clear unequivocally that Valerie/Angelique was first Miranda, transformed thru powers given her by Judah Zachary into a witch (immortal). Reincarnation plays no role."
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Finally, the clincher was episode #1197. Unfortunately, I didn't take the time to transcribe any of the dialogue, but I noted in my program guide: "Episode makes clear unequivocally that Valerie/Angelique was first Miranda, transformed thru powers given her by Judah Zachary into a witch (immortal). Reincarnation plays no role."
Nor does it address the issue that Angelique died a mortal in 1840RT (making a materialization in 1897 as a witch questionable). Also, an interesting discussion came up at the Festival about the Julia/Angelique meeting in 1897. Julia suggests it is the first time. Was it really? Random development of a character could lead to a dead end.
There is no real pattern which might suggest Resurection vs Reincarnation.
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Nor does it address the issue that Angelique died a mortal in 1840RT (making a materialization in 1897 as a witch questionable).
But Angelique was time jumping, you see. She did not go from 1840 to 1897; she was sent back to 1795 from 1968 and killed again in an alternate time line where Barnabas traveled back there to save Victoria. In 1840 Julia seems to find herself in the progression of the original timeline rather than the altered one.
What they failed to explore, due to the cancellation of the series, is the implications of Barnabas and Julia's time in 1840. They essentially wiped out the post-1840 history since Edith got killed in the revised timeline and wouldn't have been the matriarch in 1897 because of that. It would have been fascinating if they'd pursued this, for Julia and Barnabas should have found Collinwood in 1970 a very different place indeed upon their return from 1840. Because of their interference, Elizabeth, Roger and Carolyn might never have been born at all.
I must agree with Vlad that I studied the 1840 dialogue carefully to determine whether Angelique was meant to be a reincarnation of Miranda or Miranda herself and they were clear in their intention that Angelique was Miranda. Conversations between Angelique and Judah Zachary, while he possessed the body of Gerard Stiles, are pretty distinct in illustrating this.
As I said earlier, we of course know that by the 1840 story line the writers were merely taking artistic liberty and re-writing their own established history at this point, but whereas they had been explicit about reincarnation regarding Lady Kitty in 1897 they were equally explicit about Angelique actually being Miranda in 1840. It was a back story on how she'd first gotten her powers, and from whom.
Despite my admiration for Lara Parker I have to disregard her interpretation of events in favor of what we actually saw on the TV show. As Vlad points out we see Angelique resurrected numerous times; there is a distinct difference between reincarnation and resurrection and Angelique qualifies only for the latter so far as what is spoken and what is implied.
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Despite my admiration for Lara Parker I have to disregard her interpretation of events in favor of what we actually saw on the TV show. As Vlad points out we see Angelique resurrected numerous times; there is a distinct difference between reincarnation and resurrection and Angelique qualifies only for the latter so far as what is spoken and what is implied.
I don't think you can count what went on in any of the DS novels or fanfics as canonical. It gets too nuts if you do that. Parker's interpretation is perfectly valid outside the series, but within it? No, too many inconsistencies. It's fine for a universe of DS novels, but not for the show itself.
Luciaphil