DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '09 I => Topic started by: Watching Project on April 03, 2009, 10:51:47 PM
-
Robservations #750
-
This episode is a perfect example of what a perfect show should look like. The beginning of the Quentin and Beth love story has such chemistry and charisma that later becomes watered down, IMO. If Beth can see the truth about Quentin now, then [spoiler]why did she act so shocked when she learned that Quentin was going to marry Angelique?[/spoiler]
I can remember being frightened of Magda as a child, especially when she recited incantations such as the one featured in this particular episode. She just had such a powerful aura that scared the living heck out of me. [eek]
-
I have to say that the Collins family must have a stone mason on retainer who can work fast because having ordered several, I know, they take some time to arrive. They also picked quite an elaborate one for a despised member of the families gypsy wife.
Is this the first time we learn that the children live with a Mrs. Filmore?
I thought Beth's reaction to Quentin after Jenny's death is right on and her explaination of how he can never be alone and is easily bored and discards people was also and yet she decides to go with him. I think this was Terry Crawford's best scene so far.
-
Is this the first time we learn that the children live with a Mrs. Filmore?
I think all you could do before was read between the lines about why Mrs. Filmore is receiving large weekly payments from the Collinses that are secretly hand-delivered by Beth (#707 & #729).
-
Terry Crawford voiceover. Is this the first one she’s done or have I missed something?
Magda in the graveyard, vowing revenge at Jenny’s grave. I’m amazed Edward even deigned to tell the gypsies where she was buried. And putting a gypsy near Jerimiah in the Collins section – I bet Judith and Edward were cringing. Then again, they had bigger fish to fry. It’s never addressed, but the public story was that Jenny left after Quentin abandoned her . So not only did they have to explain a suspicious accident to the local constabulary, they had to come up with some story to explain why Jenny was suddenly someplace they said she left years ago.
And lol on the stonemasons on call,alwaysdavid. That is an elaborate stone, but Edward and Judith are good at putting on the right show for public consumption. No doubt why they let a GYPSY into the Collins section of the graveyard – but they have enough questions to answer without explaining why she was exiled to another part of the graveyard. Maybe they have stones done, with all that’s needed is the chiseling of name and dates? Death rates were a lot higher then. Or, thought occurs to me that they would have had a stone left over when Quentin didn’t need it anymore. Wonder if Edward and Judith were cheap enough to have that stone reused.
Interesting scene with Judith and Beth (love JC’s green dress!). It seems Judith is taking great satisfaction in firing Beth. Does she think getting Beth far away will keep her from blabbing about all their secrets? Considering how it’s being done, one would think the opposite. Or does Judith think the cover story will make anything Beth says sound like a lie?
Weird point to me is she’s dismissing Beth verbally, but gives her a letter terminating her? Would have made more sense to me if the letter had been the stereotypical reference for her: get rid of Beth with a good recommendation so she could get another good job with a rich family, and wouldn’t have reason to stick around or tell tales.
It’s very clear in this scene that Beth originally comes from a social class not that much lower than the Collins’. We’ve seen it before: addressing the family very familiarly, asking questions, standing up to Edward and Judith, not to mention using the front stairs as if she’s entitled to, but this time she goes much further. She asks Judith what’s to become of the children as if she has a right to know, and again refers to Edward and Judith by their first names when pushing the issue. In other words, she’s treating them as her social equals.
Judith is determined, for whatever reason, to keep Quentin from knowing about his children. Since they’ve already assumed financial responsibility for the children, it’s not like she or Edward are afraid they’ll be saddled with the kids – they already are. All I can think of that makes any sense (if you leave out pure spite) is that Quentin’s kids would be more contenders for the Collins money. Even that’s flimsy – if grandmamma were still alive, I could see it, since she’d make sure Quentin’s children were well provided for, but Judith holds the pursestrings, and can do what she pleases. Not to mention that Jamison and Nora would be ahead of Quentin’s children in any claim for money anyway. Then again, there’s Quentin’s promise to leave; maybe Judith thinks if he knows of the children he will use them as a way to stay on. All very cold and calculating reasons, and the fact that they’re her blood and Edward’s blood doesn’t seem to give them any empathy for the children at all – or for Quentin for that matter. As rotten as he can be, surely no one thinks he’d harm them, and the audience is shown that he genuinely likes children, and is a far different, nicer person around children. Learning about his own earlier might have been the kind of shock he needed – but instead his growth and his “hero’s journey” (anyone not familiar with Joseph Campbell?) ended up coming by a far tougher road.
Good shot by Magda about whether or not the family had also buried Jenny’s things! But what timing, right after Quentin lies through his teeth to Judith about everyone leaving, here comes Magda to contradict everything. Great scene with Judith and Quentin after she finds out he lied.
This scene is a head scratcher. Why pack Jenny’s things by bringing them down the stairs (the front stairs again!) a few at a time to a suitcase in the drawing room (OK we know it’s because of the sets, but it makes no sense in the internal reality of the show.) Why pack the doll? It was Jenny’s sure, but why pack it for Magda? She knew nothing of “the babies”. Unless I miss my guess, we see the suitcase again later, when Beth packs.
And in comes Quentin, announcing to Beth that they’re leaving Collinwood that night. Don’t think she cares much for that, in her ladylike way, saying “I see. I don’t have any choice in the matter, do I?” As their conversation goes on, its clear Beth’s been doing a lot of thinking. Again, she stand her ground firmly and quietly, and is very upfront about her guilt over Jenny, and the fact that she doesn’t know if Quentin did it by accident or not. Convenient that she’s been holding the doll, the reminder of the real children they’d be leaving in Collinsport. She listens to his commonsense arguments, looks at the doll, and doesn’t answer when he asks if she has some reason to stay. It would have been the perfect opening to tell him about his children – but she doesn’t. Makes you wonder what particularly is stopping her – her doubts about him, since she won’t even commit herself on going with him, or something else.
Very telling point in the scene with Quentin and Sandor. Quentin tries every trick he can think of, even ALL the money, but Sandor, regretful as he is about turning down the money, won’t budge. He knows if he betrayed Magda, he’d lose her permanently, and she’s worth more to him than any amount of money. Quentin doesn’t seem to even understand that, and keeps trying other arguments.
Then there they are in the darkened graveyard (with Jerimiah’s gravestone in the background) waiting to do the deed, while Quentin and his Gladstone bag go up through the servant’s entrance to Beth’s room. And there’s the SUITCASE again. I really like Beth’s outfit and that silly little hat. Oh, this is another of my favorite, if not THE favorite, Quentin and Beth scene. Alwaysdavid, I agree with everything you said about this interaction.
He’s all enthusiastic, thinking he’s gotten what he wants, but she’s still questioning herself and him and wants to know WHY he wants her with him. That’s Beth with a brain and a backbone, optimistic enough to hope that he’s worth caring about, yet realistic enough to know how little his pretty words really mean. This is a scene I went over and over for use in a novelette,since I see this as an important turning point. Slo mo is a wonderful thing for watching subtle actions and reactions, but I would give the proverbial eyeteeth to know how the actors intended the scene to be interpreted.
Beth is sad and torn as she tells him she doesn’t think he loves her, or can love anyone. He’s startled, but it could be taken any number of ways. She clearly hit a nerve, but why exactly? The take I settled on is that it let him see himself the way others see him and it shocked and hurt him to be thought of that way, because it seemed played more sad and hurt in Selby’s kicked puppy closeup. Quentin didn’t lash out, which he tends to do when he’s trying to weasel out of something, nor did he try to sweet talk or bullshit her. Neither did he try to change the subject. He accepted what she said, though telling her its not true, that she’s wrong about him, bearing out that he seems to care what she thinks, and, at least in his own mind, believes he loves her. (One does wonder if they INTENDED to tie this in to a statement of Quentin's in an earlier episode, something about no longer being able to believe one's own lies?) Sad thing is, as immature as he is and coming from that snakepit of a family, does he at this point, even if he does happen to have the best of intentions, understand what’s involved in grownup love vs getting laid?
The placing of the curse itself…. Definitely a time when BIGGER AND BIGGER works great for what Grayson is doing.
Meanwhile back in the servants quarters Quentin gets frantic at the delay and still Beth won’t tell him WHY she has to go to town first. Uh, hello, what did you plan to tell him when he takes you there? Unless I missed something multitasking, I'm pretty sure he told her about wanting to leave before sundown because of whatever the curse would be.
And the pain (not to mention the curse) begins…..
Jeannie
-
I think it's rather presumptuous of Magda to assume that Jenny's spirit needs her brand of revenge to rest in peace. While alive, Jenny turned her back on her heritage, despising her former life ("I was a gypsy once"), so I can't imagine her wanting Magda to place a gypsy curse on her behalf in death.
Not only is Judith's dress gorgeous, but the dark green is so perfect with JB's skin and hair. The salmon one she wears-- not so much.
Magda: "...let it be heard ... by the Masters of the Chains, by the Guardian of the Twelve Days."
Was Gordon Russell making this stuff up?! (At the very least it can be said that Violet Welles did her homework.)
Videographers, please, the Seaview solarium is to the right of the tower. You got it right only half the time in this ep.
I have to say that the Collins family must have a stone mason on retainer who can work fast
LOL [thumbleft]
Or, thought occurs to me that they would have had a stone left over when Quentin didn’t need it anymore. Wonder if Edward and Judith were cheap enough to have that stone reused.
Maybe his or some other Collins name is on the flip side? [wink2]
It seems Judith is taking great satisfaction in firing Beth.
The Judonald. ::)
And yes, Pansity, that was Terry Crawford's first v.o.
-
Voiceover: TC
WOW! They already have erected Jenny’s stone. LOL I was pouring over old ’03 threads and there was one commenting on how fast stones go up in Collinsport! Funny stuff! ;) It looks as if Jenny was 28! I absolutely love the music that is playing in the graveyard! Does anyone know what this track is called?? I don't own all the DS music----YET!
I love Joan's lovely green dress. I love the fiery banter between David and Joan—they are on fire, truly! It's great to see two wonderful actors work together. “But it would hurt me even more to lose Magda..” Aww how sweet of M’s “big fat hero!”
“You know I don’t like graveyards!” Sandor Do you think that is because he found Barnabas in one or just a general fear? I personally find them peaceful and enjoy strolling through them reading stones and wondering what that person's life was like. I would love to visit “HOLLYWOOD FOREVER” in LA! I thought the kiss between TC & DS looked uncomfortable. I know we have been talking about DS kisses in a thread around here.
Once again, I love the music as M evokes the curse. “By all the tribal chiefs and prophets. By the masters of the chains….by the guardians of the 12 days…” Love those lines. :
A
Side Note: I usually just post what I have written even if someone has mentioned it previously. Is that okay? Or should I read them and cut out things that have already been commented on??
-
Taeylor, as long as you're adding something to what's already been discussed, it's fine. But as on any posting board, reading the other messages in the topic before posting is a must. I hope that was helpful.
The ep numbers, however, already appear in the subject for each post, so they've been edited.
(Hollywood Forever is very cool.)
-
Thanks Sweetie!! :) It helped. I usually read all the posts...but where I got behind I hadn't! I will read them from now on. [ghost_wink]
-
I absolutely love the music that is playing in the graveyard! Does anyone know what this track is called??
I believe that the track is called Magda's Curse.
-
THANKS Fanforever! :) I really appreciate it. I look forward to getting all the music. I just love that piece tremendously!
-
First of all, there's a few milestones to mention. This was when Magda put the curse on Quentin, and he started to feel the pain before [spoiler]turning into a werewolf.[/spoiler] [milestone] Also, this episode had the first Terry Crawford voiceover, and this was the first time we learned that the children lived with Mrs. Filmore. [milestone] This episode originally aired on my birthday. [milestone] I'm happy that such a turning point (Quentin's curse) occurred on my birthday!
I think there was a big discrepancy with the curse. [signerror] Magda said, "I place this curse upon Quentin Collins, and upon all his male kin of succeeding generations..." She didn't say anything about the "first born"; she said she was cursing all of them. [spoiler]What about Tom? Why didn't he turn into a werewolf, then? I think the rules were changed. Shame on them. [nono] [/spoiler] By the way, I also love Magda's incantation. [ghost_wink]
It was great to see Beth's backbone in action again when she questioned whether Quentin really loved her and pondered whether she should go with him. Another discrepancy: If indeed Judith fired Beth in this episode, then [spoiler]why didn't she leave right away? [ghost_huh] [/spoiler]
Excellent episode! One of the best! Kudos to all for their fabulous acting. [clap2]
----- Sally -----
[snow_bigglass] [hippy2]
-
I think there was a big discrepancy with the curse. [signerror] Magda said, "I place this curse upon Quentin Collins, and upon all his male kin of succeeding generations..." She didn't say anything about the "first born"; she said she was cursing all of them. [spoiler]What about Tom? Why didn't he turn into a werewolf, then? I think the rules were changed. Shame on them. [nono] [/spoiler] By the way, I also love Magda's incantation. [ghost_wink]
Yeah, slight difference in words makes a BIG difference in execution [ghost_grin] as anyone who's ever edited or proofread documents can confirm. [ghost_wink] That original wording is so open that "all male kin of succeeding generations" can include every male in the line from Jamison forward. Reminds me of a VERY good series of stories, originally printed in a WODS but reposted on fanfiction.net, where the author's premise was that Jamison and Roger both suffered from the werewolf curse. Lots of story ideas there. As usual, too many great story ideas, too little TIME.
It was great to see Beth's backbone in action again when she questioned whether Quentin really loved her and pondered whether she should go with him.
One of my all time favorite DS scenes. It's tied with the one in the Old House where Beth rips into Quentin when she realizes he's going to kill Jenny for my favorite Beth scene. She's such a wonderful character at this point, and it's flat out SAD to see how the character wusses out as the storyline progresses. [sad10]
Another discrepancy: If indeed Judith fired Beth in this episode, then [spoiler]why didn't she leave right away? [ghost_huh] [/spoiler]
Originally they explained that she asked to stay on a couple weeks more. But then the curse hit as they were leaving, and if they finally give an explanation for her staying on, I think it must be in an ep we're not up to yet. At first she seems to just be hanging around and not working, but I think later she's back to being a maid. I did a lot of trying to work things up, so my fanfiction didn't have any screaming discrepancies with the show, but I remember a lot of HUH moments trying to make it all make sense-- and I'd bet anything that there's still holes I didn't catch and manage to fix.
Jeannie
-
I believe we have been told that Quentin was born in 1870. Jenny's headstone says she was born in 1869. It always interests me that Jenny was older than Quentin.
Maybe they have stones done, with all that's needed is the chiseling of name and dates? Death rates were a lot higher then.
Or maybe in one of the 40 rooms of Collinwood there's a stack of headstones, neatly tagged and sorted, each with a name and a date of birth, with only the date of death remaining to be filled in. I'm imagining a headstone as a traditional Collins christening present, and then as a wedding present for those who marry into the family. And yet Jenny complained that the Collinses didn't like her!
I think it's rather presumptuous of Magda to assume that Jenny's spirit needs her brand of revenge to rest in peace. While alive, Jenny turned her back on her heritage, despising her former life ("I was a gypsy once"), so I can't imagine her wanting Magda to place a gypsy curse on her behalf in death.
I'm not sure Jenny would have wanted any revenge at all. In life she wanted to kill Quentin - but that was her insanity talking. I think the basic, pre-insanity Jenny was more forgiving, and less like Magda.
Incidentally, I just started wondering: why was Jenny named Jenny? Magda and Sandor have exotic (well, not English) names, but Jenny had a name that any Collins might have had, and Magda called her Jenny, so it wasn't that Jenny changed her name.
Once again Beth carried the dolls as if they were real babies. Last time I saw that I wondered if it was because she wanted children of her own. This time around, I think it was a tribute to Jenny.
-
I believe we have been told that Quentin was born in 1870. Jenny's headstone says she was born in 1869. It always interests me that Jenny was older than Quentin.
Very nice catch. And welcome back!
-
Thanks, Midnite!
-
I always thought that Beth started to question Quentin's motives for wanting her to go with him because she's bothered by his lack of remorse (at this point) over killing Jenny. His "I had to kill her before she killed me" exclamination to her clues Beth into the selfishness of Quentin's character and his feelings for other people. Jenny WAS his wife regardless of what she as going to do to him, I think Beth was disappointed that he hasn't acknowledge the whole tragic situation as it was.
[spoiler] However, when Jenny's ghost comes back later to help Lenore, Quentin has grown up quite a bit by now, and DOES show the remorse that is absent during this period. [/spoiler] Too bad Beth wasn't there.
Despite her reservations and against her better judgment, she's decided to go with him. I always wished that Quentin treated her
a little bit better than he did especially after [spoiler] Angelique forces him to agree to marry her and after Amanda Harris comes into the picture. [/spoiler] Beth was so devoted to him even when he doesn't deserve it.
Magda was just as bad as Angelique when it came down to laying her curse, not only cursing her victim, but dooming innocent people as well. In this case she was cursing people who weren't even born yet. I don't think just because you're a descendant of Quentin you should have to become a hairy beast every full moon every month of the year. [spoiler] Poor Chris, having to suffer a fate he himself did NOT deserve because he was a distantly blood relative of Quentin's. [/spoiler]
This episode demontrated how much disdain Judith had for Beth. It was pretty cold of her to tell Beth if she had had her way, Beth wouldn't have gotten a nickel and would have been kicked out with only the clothes on her back.