DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '09 I => Topic started by: Watching Project on March 19, 2009, 07:47:06 PM
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Robservations #742
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Whoops, I got here first again! [easter_embarassed]
Watching the teaser from #741, Selby almost tripped over his words, but managed to get the sentence back on track.
Quentin is desperate to get her away from the kids, and he's apparently truly afraid for them. We don't see enough in what we're shown to know why this is, but is this fear because he knows she's dead? Has he reasoned out that she wants them for some other reason? Magda points out in the previous episode that she never had much interest in her children before, now they're the be all and end all. Is that what's setting off his alarm bells, or something else we never find out.
Loved that line about getting money to pay her off so she would leave. "I'll steal it -- but I'll get it."
Laura's power over Dirk reminds me a lot of Barnabas and Charity. Singleminded, obsessed with the love object. And as we see as things progress, it gets even more and more so.
And, speaking of the devil [easter_evil], the next scene is Charity and Dirk, and Charity slipping off to meet HER love object.
Barnabas sure thinks he's invulnerable. Even after his snack he wants Charity to stay around.
Love the scene with Quentin and Beth. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the first time we've seen them together since what I call the I want you" scene. Implication I see here is it's after they've done the deed and are going back to the outside world.
From the conversation, he has genuine feelings for Beth, and it doesn't come off like he's playing her. This is a less defensive, more trusting Quentin. The bit where they are discussing Jenny and what they can do is pure Jane Eyre and Mr. Rochester. It's also apparent time has passed since that first time, as they've apparently discussed the impossible position they're in regarding Jenny many times, and Beth has stood her ground on how she feels. This scene goes back to something I said elsewhere about that "I want you" scene. He apparently likes and respects Beth, so once that scene goes forward, he essentially gets caught in his own trap. She's not a one time fling, he likes her and wants her to think well of him., and is apparently at least starting to fall in love with her.
And nosy Barnabas snooping through the window. Good thing he hadn't been there earlier, [easter_evil] he might have seen something sent his eyeballs crawling down his back.
Good scene too with Beth and Barnabas. Silly chance he took snooping like that. Not clear though, why she went back to Quentin's room. I would think though she'd be worried Barnbas would snitch to Judith that she was there, but then again maybe not, since Quentin himself isn't there. She seems real pleased to have caught him there, which makes you wonder how much Quentin is telling her of his suspicions about Barnabas. She's also quick, which often gets forgotten (he didn't develop a taste for stupid women till later) [easter_evil]. She realizes they should have seen Barnabas when they left, but didn't . He brushes right past that in his worry over what Barnabas took.
Dirk has a Quentin obsession -- and LAURA has a new dress!
Always keep meaning to snoop through The Book of the Dead and see if there's an incantation ANYTHING like that in it. [egypt] Have a copy kicking around the house somewhere from writing Indy fanfiction.
And Charity freaks out just as Quentin bumbles in and messes it all up.
Somethign tells me Barnabas got some 'splainin' to do.
Jeannie
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This ep seemed to fly by. Could it be because everybody in it is having sex, or at least the vampiric equivalent of it?
But if there's a theme running through it, it might be that the paid workers were all being used by the upper class. It does seem that Quentin is developing genuine feelings, but Beth is is clearly uncomfortable with the situation such as it is while he's making excuses so he can keep getting what he wants. Charity didn't want to even be with Barnabas at first, and after setting her straight he began to terrify her with his talk about disturbing a burial site, evil spirits, and books of the dead, sigh. Punishing this naive girl for her great great great grandfather's sins seems cruel, even for Barnabas. And as for Dirk, please, like Laura would want him if he wasn't a vessel for her master.
Laura got 3 dresses this time. But she'll only need one hanger because her 18th c. dress was spectral and the blue one can now stand in the corner on its own. [easter_tongue]
And what exactly was Charity's purpose in being present for the ritual? To warm the settee?
Quentin is desperate to get her away from the kids, and he's apparently truly afraid for them. We don't see enough in what we're shown to know why this is, but is this fear because he knows she's dead? Has he reasoned out that she wants them for some other reason?... Is that what's setting off his alarm bells, or something else we never find out.
Yes, he knows she's dead and up to something scary that involves the supernatural. In the first scene he says to Laura, "I know what will happen to them if you take them," and when she says he can't have Jamison, he answers, "But at least he'll be alive." (Doesn't anybody care about Nora?)
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Tell me, anyone please, do we know if this Laura [spoiler]is a Phoenix [/spoiler]before Egypt or does she become one because of what happens in Egypt? I know I should know this but I don't remember.
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I believe she became a Phoenix after her death by fire in Egypt just as she became a Phoenix in 1966 after her death in her Phoenix apartment by fire.
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I agree, I think she became a phoenix after she died in Egypt, or else she wouldn't have run off on her precious, precious children.
Speaking of the kids, the writers aren't giving them enough credit. Living in the house they would have been aware of the tension between Edward, Laura and Quentin. Given that Quentin was kicked out one night a year ago and their mother disappeared the same night and that their Father now refuses to discuss her.... they really would have known something was up. Kids are smarter than people give them credit for.
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her 18th c. dress was spectral and the blue one can now stand in the corner on its own. [easter_tongue]
[lghy] [wink2]
And what exactly was Charity's purpose in being present for the ritual? To warm the settee?
[spoiler]I've always found that scene oddly reminiscent of the scene in '67 where Barnabas performs his Barbados ritual in front of Carolyn. In each scene NB's character's presence seems superfluous, except as a witness - and each is a victim of Barnabas.[/spoiler]
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Quentin and Laura carried on their affair at the cottage, and after he left, she remained at Collinwood long enough to receive letters secretly sent from him before running off to join him. So maybe her kids didn't know anything about them? They managed to completely miss that Jenny was in the tower room, which totally boggles the mind.
[spoiler]I've always found that scene oddly reminiscent of the scene in '67 where Barnabas performs his Barbados ritual in front of Carolyn. In each scene NB's character's presence seems superfluous, except as a witness - and each is a victim of Barnabas.[/spoiler]
Wow, deja vu!
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William Mann (who subsequently became a well-known author of old-time celebrity biographies and gay-themed novels) wrote up a speculative biography of "the Lauras" that was published in Dale Clark's old zine Inside the Old House. He came up with a scenario for how Laura first came to be, that I think involved her sea-captain father in the early 18th century making a devil's bargain with the god Ra. Anyhow, his theory was also that each Laura carried within herself the seed of the eternal Phoenix spirit, and that this spirit was awakened with Laura's first "death by fire."
G.
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Given that Quentin was kicked out one night a year ago and their mother disappeared the same night and that their Father now refuses to discuss her.... they really would have known something was up. Kids are smarter than people give them credit for.
I'm thinkiing it depends on the cover story they were given at the time, and just how long it was before Laura followed Quentin. There was enough time in between for them to have exchanged a series of letters. As to the cover story, given the Collins' pathological secrecy AND the complete blackout the Victorians would have put on anything regarding sex, I think it's possible that the kids may not have connected the two disappearances.
Gothick, that Inside the Old House article sounds wonderful. Is there even a remote chance that you might recall what issue it is? I'm wondering if by some miracle I have it in one of the back issues I have. (To quote Taeylor: I MISS ZINES!!!!!!!! Especially NEW zines, ones I haven't read yet!)
Jeannie
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I have that issue of Inside the Old House (in a box somewhere in the closet- so the paper doesn't yellow as fast).
Would it be OK to post it here?
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do all the different lauras remember what the previous lauras did or is she in effect "fresh" every time she shows up?
in other words did 1966 laura remember her 1797 and 1897 incarnations?
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Good question...because at the moment I am drawing a blank!
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Hi MSC, I think you said that you've never seen 1897--is that correct? Anyhow, the 1897 Laura did carry within her the 18th century Laura's memories. Barnabas in a ceremony that came from the Book of the Dead was able to summon up the ghost of the 18th century Laura (btw, in a typical DS continuity lurch, they revised the dates so that I think the 18th century Laura had died in the 1780s instead of the 1760s), which made the then "current" incarnation disappear for a few moments. Clearly, the two on some plane both were--and were not--identical.
The 1897 Laura was much more explicitly linked to ancient Egyptian religion, specifically the cult of Ra. I don't recall that figuring at all in the 1966 story, apart from vague references to the homeland of the Phoenix in Laura's dreamy, rather scary "soliloquies."
G.
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Not to discourage the use of spoiler warnings in topics, but the one surrounding the description of the Book of the Dead ceremony wasn't necessary since it takes place in this ep of the Watching Project (#742).
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Thanks, Midnite. I have to confess that the whole concept of "spoiler warnings" around a show that aired 40 years ago baffles me--so feel free to offer further direction in the future!
I was amused stopping in at a slightly out of the way video rental store the other day to see a photocopied Battlestar Galactica flier taped to the front door with a magic marker notice to the effect that the store was a "BG spoiler free zone."
G.
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Perhaps there are two different Lauras from the following:
1767: Laura Murdoch Stockbridge
1785: Laura Stockbridge Collins
1867: Laura Murdoch Radcliffe
1897: Laura Murdoch Collins
1967: Laura Murdoch Collins
The Laura of 1897 is almost 100 years from the 1785 version
The Laura of 1966 is 100 years separate from both prior incarnations
That Inside the Old House article had a great explanation for this.
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Gothick,
I recently had a reading experience trashed by a chapter-by-chapter reviewer who didn't bother to include a spoiler warning when a guest writer revealed the book's biggest mystery while brought in to discuss an early chapter. The reviewer explained, "We tried to walk the line between not giving too much away for the Readers and still engaging the ReReaders by pointing out the foreshadowing as we passed it by. Sorry we landed on the wrong side of the line for you." (Did I mention that he suggested I follow along with his blog when I purchased the book from him, or that the story came out 25 years ago?) So regarding spoiler warnings here, I feel that one could think of DS as a classic and wonderful novel that is more enjoyable as a shared experience, yet not everyone who is reading along wants to be told how it's going to end.
I highly recommend Battlestar Galactica, btw, which is best viewed from the beginning and spoiler-free.
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Would it be OK to post it here?
Chances are that zine is long OOP, and the author doesn't seem to have it posted elsewhere on the Web, so I'd say it's OK.
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Thanks, Midnite, for the input, and I'm so sorry about the horrendous gaffe made on that list you were on. No matter how often the individual responsible apologises, there's no way to get the kitten back into the bag, is there?
I will continue to err on the side of excess as much as possible when it comes to posting spoiler warnings. I'm not copping an attitude in saying I don't understand--I really don't. For instance, I would presume it is considered a spoiler that [spoiler] the series basically ended with Barnabas "realizing" that the all-time love of his life had been Angelique all along.[/spoiler] Even though there've been many threads that have cited this particular development, I would still use the spoiler feature for referencing it, particularly in a thread such as this one dedicated to discussion of a particular episode.
I toy with the idea of starting a thread on Spoilers in general, because I find it on a certain level an intriguing topic. I am afraid that at my advanced age, I no longer care about spoilers--for ANYTHING. The reason is that I've read so many novels, seen so many films and television shows and plays, that very little really surprises me any longer. If I am watching something, it is because something to do with the characters, the aesthetics (such as the photography or underscore), or just the actors involved engages me. We're getting Wild Wild West on Netflix now, and I watch that mainly for Robert Conrad's tight pants and the women's campy hairdos and makeup.
All that to one side, when I went to see the Crying Game in 1992 I had managed to avoid hearing about "the surprise secret," and it did provide an amusing sensation when it hit--all because of how the director cleverly staged it, as I had already had doubts. So, I'm obviously not above being surprised. Then again, that was 17 years ago. And now I *really* feel old.
cheers, Gothick
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We can really get out of control with the spoiler thing if we want to. For example, the fact that
[spoiler]
Barnabas Collins is a vampire released from his coffin in 1967
[/spoiler]
would be a spoiler in the extremely unlikely event that some strange fan who has only seen The Beginning volumes 1-5 was on this message board. Or that
[spoiler]
Dr Hoffman was treating Barnabas to cure him of his vampirism
[/spoiler]
if you'd only seen Volume 1. Or any off handed implication that
[spoiler]
Barnabas and Julia eventually become allies
[/spoiler]
is a total spoiler if you've only seen Volumes 1-4. Honestly if you really want to be pedantic about it we probably shouldn't ever discuss the plot without using the spoiler feature. Even in the threads that are specifically designated for a particular episode. Why someone who doesn't want to know what happened in that episode would open the thread is beyond me, but we should probably use the spoiler just in case....
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We can really get out of control with the spoiler thing if we want to.
Or, we can continue handling spoilers the same as we have been. [smlyb]
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I think that is best Midnite!
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I've always considered it a spoiler that we talk openly about things like Parallel Time.
[spoiler]The first time PT occurred, it was so mysterious. It seemed impossible that Elizabeth and Julia were in that room when we knew they had both gone out somewhere. And then, Barnabas couldn't enter the room and they couldn't see or hear him. Then suddenly it all changed and it was deserted again. It took a while before the explanation finally came about. I've always thought it a shame that most newcomers are now aware that this is PT.[/spoiler]
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Parallel Time is one of the most underrated points in DS. I personally love it!
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I love Parallel Time, too, Taeylor! [winkg]
I agree with Jeannie that this was the first time we saw Quentin and Beth have a romantic tryst. [milestone] Also, this was the first time they spoke of love. [love3]
As I mentioned before, I believe there were two Phoenixes on DS - the 1767/1867/1967 Laura and the 1785/1897 Laura. [ideag] I really enjoyed seeing Barnabas's incantation - it was really thrilling! [ghost_shocked] The special effects were great when Laura disappeared in front of Dirk and then appeared as the LSC who died in 1785. [8334] I don't blame Charity for getting frightened and running away. I loved it at the end, when Quentin came in just in time to see Laura's bloodcurdling scream!
Yes, indeed, there was a lot of loving in the episode. [luv] It was particularly great when Barnabas "convinced" Charity to stay when he bit her. [vampy]
----- Sally -----
[snow_bigglass] [hippy2]
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PT is FUN. Of course, I'm prejudiced. I LIKE both Rebecca and The Strange Case of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde
(Of course OLIVIER didn't have an orange plaid jacket to deal with!) [ghost_grin]
Jeannie
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Barnabas sure thinks he's invulnerable. Even after his snack he wants Charity to stay around.
And the front door to the Old House was wide open when he bit her!
The special effects were great when Laura disappeared in front of Dirk
Yes, that was a beautifully done disappearance.
Barnabas noted a few days ago that the Laura who was Jeremiah's wife died childless. I think that's something that Barnabas could not have remembered incorrectly. So the appearance in 1785 seems to be a hiccup in the phoenix-comes-back-for-her-child pattern.
I'm finding it an intriguing confluence of events that Quentin, with his great interest in the occult, hitched up with Laura, who either was a phoenix at the time or else had the phoenix potential in her, and that they ended up in Alexandria, where there were fire priests looking for just the right victim. (Did it have to be Laura?) Alexandria would not be my first choice in destinations if I were pursuing an interest in the occult. After all, it was a relatively new city in the ancient world, wasn't it? Memphis or Luxor would seem to promise more spookiness.
Hey, did Charity always do her hair so complicatedly? My memory is of a neat bun at the nape of her neck, but that's the sort of thing I could easily get wrong. (The only reason I was checking her hair at all was that the other day I had been thinking about cinnamon buns.) Is her enslavement to Barnabas prompting her to wear her hair in an unPuritanical way?
I think there are briars outside the Old House. Barnabas had better set Sandor to cutting them back or they'll just take over and kill all the other plants.
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Barnabas noted a few days ago that the Laura who was Jeremiah's wife died childless. I think that's something that Barnabas could not have remembered incorrectly. So the appearance in 1785 seems to be a hiccup in the phoenix-comes-back-for-her-child pattern.
Though as far as we know, Laura Murdoch Stockbridge (or L as her family called her ;)) also died childless. While the show never told us that there was more than 1 line of Phoenixes-- it's just a theory-- if you follow the died-by-fire-100-years-apart rule, the first in each of the 2 lines died childless, and I suppose there was no reason for those two to be seen again soon after their deaths.
But in a later ep, a mention is made of (not all that spoilery, btw) [spoiler]20 generations,[/spoiler] which makes one wonder if the line(s) went back to other centuries and different parts of the world, maybe even to Alexandria?
Hey, did Charity always do her hair so complicatedly?
Pretty much. Her first appearance--
(http://www.dsboards.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16838.0;attach=15501)
I think it's NB's own hair.
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I'd be very surprised if it wasn't NB's own hair. And I'm shocked that Charity's father allowed her to dress it so dressily...although...he did have a thing about hair, didn't he?