DARK SHADOWS FORUMS

General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '09 I => Topic started by: Watching Project on January 05, 2009, 10:29:40 PM

Title: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Watching Project on January 05, 2009, 10:29:40 PM: Quote from: ROBINV on October 22, 2002, 10:35:08 PM
Robservations #701
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Lydia on January 06, 2009, 09:43:11 AM: This episode is even more interesting when you watch it the second or the umpteenth time - when you know exactly who all the people are whose names are mentioned, and when you know what has happened in 1897 before this action. But I'll never forget watching this on its first airing in 1969 and being surprised by the beauty of David Selby's voice when he said, "You're still beautiful, Beth."

How did Barnabas send the vision of the mausoleum to the crystal ball? He didn't do it when he existed in 1897 the first time around, and he knows no more about Sandor and Magda now than he did then. All I can figure is that the I Ching was helping him. It's obvious that the pattern of the I Ching wands on the table in the basement of the the Old House in 1969 was not the same as the pattern on the door that Barnabas saw. Something in Barnabas evoked something in I Ching, and it showed itself in the door accordingly.

Alternatively, there is Magnus's theory that Barnabas self-hypnotized himself to get through the endless nights the first time around and that's why he never sent a vision to Magda's crystal ball, but if that's the case, then why is it that Willie heard the heartbeat from the portrait in 1967? And come to think of it, why did Willie hear the heartbeat in 1967?

What were those cards that Edith had? There was Tarot there, but there were also some other cards. Were they old fashioned playing cards, from before they put the number and the suit on the corner?

There was a scratch or something on Magda's crystal ball that looked to me as though something had scratched "Joe's" into it. Very distracting. Is this the same crystal ball that David uses in 1966?

I liked the pallor of Barnabas's hand next to Sandor's brown skin.

I was thinking during our hiatus that this was like the between-seasons time on a prime time show, since I knew that things would be so different on the show when it started up again. When I tell people my favorite TV show is Dark Shadows, often they ask: "How many seasons did it run?" It's a great question to be asked, because it opens the door to explaining to them some of the wonderful things about Dark Shadows.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: MagnusTrask on January 06, 2009, 12:20:48 PM: I love how the Barnabas we see is a sort of joining of the 1969 and 1897 (or 1795, since that's the last time he lived in the world) versions. You can hear it in his voice, [spoiler]when he delivers the line about the house being in a "deplorable condition".[/spoiler] 1969 human Barnabas would never have said it that way, in those words, with that attitude. You can hear how his point of view is affected by being a vampire again. Yet... his 1969 self dictates his priorities, despite how transformed he is.

It's great watching J Frid spring to life again as the past storylines begin... it's clear he just has so much more to work with, and so much more enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on January 06, 2009, 10:52:25 PM: Quote from: Lydia on January 06, 2009, 09:43:11 AM
It's obvious that the pattern of the I Ching wands on the table in the basement of the the Old House in 1969 was not the same as the pattern on the door that Barnabas saw.

Really? The pattern on the door looked exactly the same to me as the one Stokes arranged on the table.

Quote
What were those cards that Edith had? There was Tarot there, but there were also some other cards. Were they old fashioned playing cards, from before they put the number and the suit on the corner?

That was all Tarot. We usually see cards from that deck's Major Arcana, but Edith had mostly Minor Arcana cards in front of her-- pentacles, wands, swords and cups, including a court card (an inverted Knight of Wands, which should have cued her in to exactly who was at the door, lol). There are samples here:

1JJ Swiss Tarot images (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/1jj-swiss/)

It was my first deck, purchased after seeing it on DS, naturally. I bought it at a witch's shop in San Pedro's Ports O'Call, which is one reason why I loved that the Village stood in as Collinsport in '91 and '04.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: MagnusTrask on January 06, 2009, 11:24:29 PM: I do vaguely remember it being something other than the 49th on the door.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: IluvBarnabas on January 07, 2009, 12:51:44 AM: Great episode. We get to hear Quentin and Beth speak....Quentin trying to woo Beth one second, then abusing her another, then back to sweet-talking her again. What a complex guy Quentin is, and will continue to be as the storyline plays out.

I must admit, it always bothered me too how Barnabas was never able to summon anyone to release him before, but now he does, but I just have to shrug my shoulders and enjoy the ride. I look forward to 1897 more and more.

Love the interaction between Magda and Sandor. They are completely believable as a husband and wife, quarreling as all other married couples do from time to time.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on January 07, 2009, 09:06:13 AM: Not to beat a dead horse, [deadhorse] but I rewatched, paused the screen, and still see the same hexagram on the table that's on the door (the one below).

__________
__________
__________
__________
__________
__________

Lydia, maybe it's how we are seeing the pattern on the table? I don't know. It appears to me that we see the broken sides of a couple of them that are solid on top.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Lydia on January 07, 2009, 10:28:09 AM: I haven't gone back and looked again, but both times that scene was shown - in the end of episode 700 and in the beginning of 701 - it seemed clear to me that when Stokes threw the wands down, there were more white sides up than there were on the door. It may be that while we were looking at the door the first time, the wands were rearranged to show what was on the door.

Thanks for the information about the Tarot cards, Midnite. I'll take a closer look next time I watch this episode.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: MagnusTrask on January 07, 2009, 03:44:56 PM: That diagram doesn't look like the 49th to me. It just looks like five thin white lines actually... Anyway, I wonder if we're being fooled by seeing the wands from the side rather than from the top. Are they the same on all sides?
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on January 07, 2009, 07:09:28 PM: You're welcome on the Tarot Lydia.

Quote from: Lydia on January 07, 2009, 10:28:09 AM
it seemed clear to me that when Stokes threw the wands down, there were more white sides up than there were on the door. It may be that while we were looking at the door the first time, the wands were rearranged to show what was on the door.

I noticed Stokes doing a LOT of rearranging and a little flipping to make the pattern after Barnabas (not Stokes) threw them down. I guess that was inevitable, cuz Barn couldn't be expected to actually throw them into the desired result. When you referred to the pattern on the table in 1969, I thought we were talking about the pattern when Stokes was done with them, lol, and those are what looked the same to me as on the door.

Quote from: MagnusTrask on January 07, 2009, 03:44:56 PM
That diagram doesn't look like the 49th to me. It just looks like five thin white lines actually...

Sorry. The colors should display (top to bottom, though I think I-Ching is read bottom to top) as broken/solid/solid/ solid/broken/solid.

Quote
I wonder if we're being fooled by seeing the wands from the side rather than from the top.

I wondered exactly the same above, but didn't word it as clearly as you. You have to look really carefully to distinguish the top from the sides when there's a white (broken) side or top.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on January 08, 2009, 08:55:02 AM: Considering all the character introductions in the first couple of weeks of this storyline-- with first appearances of more memorable characters than you can count on both hands-- it's easy, amid the excitement, to overlook the set changes. Yet I feel that one prop in particular is worth mentioning since after its introduction in this ep, it will remain a fixture (unintentional pun) all the way to the end of the series. So, yay for the drawing room chandelier! [snow_cheesy] [snow_wink]
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: MagnusTrask on January 08, 2009, 09:43:39 AM: I'm curious as to what that crazy turn-of-the-century piece of furniture is called, the one where three people can sit facing different directions and still talk to each other. Someone here knows, I guarantee it!
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Lydia on January 08, 2009, 12:51:37 PM: I don't know, but I suggest calling it the menage a trois seat.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Lydia on January 08, 2009, 01:00:37 PM: Quote from: Midnite on January 07, 2009, 07:09:28 PM
I noticed Stokes doing a LOT of rearranging and a little flipping to make the pattern after Barnabas (not Stokes) threw them down. I guess that was inevitable, cuz Barn couldn't be expected to actually throw them into the desired result. When you referred to the pattern on the table in 1969, I thought we were talking about the pattern when Stokes was done with them, lol, and those are what looked the same to me as on the door.
Of course you're right, it was Barnabas, not Stokes, who did the throwing.

I was indeed talking about the pattern when Stokes was done with them, but I suppose it could be that looking at them from a different angle made a difference. If that's the case, then the director slipped up, because every time I see that scene, I think those wands look different on the table from how they do on the door. But of course I'm unobservant.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: MagnusTrask on January 08, 2009, 09:00:27 PM: Quote from: Lydia on January 08, 2009, 12:51:37 PM
I don't know, but I suggest calling it the menage a trois seat.

Or... The Taking-All-The-Fun-Out-Of-The-Menage-a-Trois-Seat.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on January 08, 2009, 09:23:59 PM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on January 08, 2009, 09:00:27 PM
Or... The Taking-All-The-Fun-Out-Of-The-Menage-a-Trois-Seat.

[stfl]
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on January 08, 2009, 09:35:59 PM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on January 08, 2009, 09:43:39 AM
I'm curious as to what that crazy turn-of-the-century piece of furniture is called, the one where three people can sit facing different directions and still talk to each other.

It sounds like you already had the answer in your head-- I think it's called a conversation chair.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: sheenasma on January 14, 2009, 01:19:29 AM: Yep, conversation chair, sometimes called a tete-a-tete chair. There is one very similar in one of the historical homes here that now operates as a museum.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: EmeraldRose on February 04, 2009, 11:34:57 AM: With his first word being, "Hello!" - Quentin speaks! [milestone] Other milestones: The first appearances of Beth, Magda, Sandor, and Edith - in the year 1897. Also, the first time we heard the names of Jenny, Judith, and Carl. [milestone]

Quentin was such a lovable, roguish, and greedy ladies man! He really knew how to charm women of all ages. You certainly could tell that Quentin took after his "Grandmama". When he lived in 1897, he was very different from the ghost in 1969 - much more animated, charming, handsome, and not the least bit menacing. I love his eyes and his smile the best! [luv]

Edith was one smart cookie. [snow_cheesy] I suspect that Vampire Barnabas being in the chained coffin was the "family secret" that Edith desperately wanted to tell Edward. One question that comes to mind is: Did Edith originally die before she was able to tell the secret to Edward? [snow_huh] I ask that because the 1969 Collins family had no knowledge of the secret.

I love the relationship between Sandor and Magda. They certainly were a realistic married couple. I also love how Magda ordered Sandor around. It's clear that she "wore the pants" in the family, even though she always wore dresses! [snow_laugh]

It was great to watch Sandor go into the mausoleum. There was a blooper when the secret door opened before he pulled the ring. [signerror] I had a wonderful feeling of deja vu when Sandor deftly took off the chains and Barnabas reached out for his neck as the coffin was being opened. [snow_happy]

----- Sally -----
[snow_bigglass] [hippy2]
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on March 01, 2009, 06:02:04 AM: Lydia, I hope you'll get to see MB's capture (for today's new quote) of the arrangement of the I Ching wands on the table. It does look like we're seeing the broken sides, and not the tops, of a couple of the wands.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Pansity on March 01, 2009, 05:56:36 PM: I don't remember ever seeing this ep on first run. First time I saw it was back on the last Sci fi run, what was it, 2002 or so? Had the same reaction every time since then., He comes through the door with the riding boots, planter's hat, and sarcastic wisecracks and all I could think was -- they're setting him up to be Rhett Butler! A lot of the interchange with Beth in that scene in the foyer definitely had the tone of the Scarlett/Rhett verbal fencing matches. And, like Rhett, there's a lot more to him than the wisecracking, care for nothing and no one surface, as we find out as things progress. Defintely one of the most complicated and interesting characters to come out of the series.

The scenes with Quentin and Edith are a HOOT. He is playing penitant little boy, butter wouldn't melt in his mouth and she SOO completely has his number. He's a practiced BS artist -- and she's not buying it. For someone they keep describing as crazy and addled, she's sharp as a tack when it comes to seeing right through her "favorite grandson" and cutting him down to size.

And Magda and Sandor.. what can I say that someone didn't already say? Magda is my absolute favorite Grayson character, bar none. (Sorry, Julia fans. [a2a3]). She's funny, wisecracking, and smart. And beneath the wisecracks she and Sandor clearly adore each other. Excellent period touch too, about him wanting to go out on the road selling his cure all patent medicine (that cures nothing). Another nice period touch was Edith's throwaway line about kissing and germs. Still on Edith, who hasn't had a parent or grandparent call them by a sibling's name once in a while --or run through a list of siblings and pets names till they hit on the right one.

I too noticed a little difference in the appearance of the wands on the table originally, but the flipping around to make them match the door made sense to me.

As to the three seated piece of furniture, I have NO idea where I remember this from, but I think I've also heard them referred to as chaperone chairs (or maybe they had different names/nicknames in different parts of the country as well?)

Good point, too IluvBarnabas, about how this is the only time he seems to be able to summon someone to let hijm out of the coffin. Deux ex machinas R us, but they did need some way to get him out and about.... At least its not as mindbending as some of the gaping plotholes and contradictions they hand us at the end of every storyline.

Oh and a few throwaway lines make me wonder what parts of the storylines they had worked out and what tentative, not to mention which were simply red herrings. Like the implication that Jenny Collins was someone that Edward would have fired Beth because of, since he would be pained by reminders of her.

And snickers of foreshadowing about how Edith tells Quentin about dissipation aging him.

Jeannie
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: MagnusTrask on March 01, 2009, 09:14:02 PM: Re Deux-Ex-Machinas-R-Us...

All this is fresh in my mind since I've been watching this period for the last couple of days. Isn't it true that Barnabas can influence someone to help him only when someone is already in the vicinity of the coffin, for other reasons? With Willie and Sandor, I believe they both happened to go there for jewels (the same jewels!).

As for why Magda sent him there at that convenient hour, I think we can thank the I Ching for that. Thank you, I Ching. The wands sent him to the exact day that Quentin arrived back in Collinsport, that part's easy. It would also be easy to imagine the wands choosing the exact day that Magda sends Sandor to the mausoleum. The difficult part is accepting that those two moments just happened to come during the same night.

Or did they? After Barnabas popped back into 1897 Barnabas, I found that a surprising amount of activity goes on before he's actually let out. The longer the elapsed time is between the rehabitation and the Sandor-strangling, the more believable it is. Did these happen on different nights?

Failing all else, I suppose we can choose to say that the wands somehow arranged for Magda to get it into her head that the distant crypt at the Eagle Hill Cemetary had jewels in it (in an unnecessarily large wooden display case). I don't want to strain fate (or my imagination) that badly, though.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on March 01, 2009, 10:32:01 PM: Quentin showed up at Collinwood, Barnabas' consciousness entered the coffin, and the vampire was released all in the same night.

The method that Barnabas used to show someone the location of his coffin was Magda's crystal ball. The super fortunate coincidence in timing was that Sandor just happened to be searching for the Collins jewels that very night.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: MagnusTrask on March 01, 2009, 10:40:26 PM: Where were the jewels, anyway? Barnabas lived off of them in multiple time periods, so were they actually in the coffin? Could that be why they showed up in the crystal ball, rather than through Barnabas's powers? I can't think why they'd be in a coffin, but I also can't think why they'd be stashed in some other place where he and no one in the rest of the family knows where they are, someplace outside of the Big House itself.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on March 01, 2009, 11:55:26 PM: The jewels Magda knew about were the ones Edith wore, and can't you just picture Judith snatching them off of her body before the old woman was buried?

But didn't the jewels that Barnabas sold off belong to Naomi?

Quote from: MagnusTrask
Could that be why they showed up in the crystal ball, rather than through Barnabas's powers?

Magda had different jewels in mind at the time, and her predictions about them were inaccurate before, but it's an interesting theory nonetheless. Divination sometimes works in unexpected ways.
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Pansity on March 03, 2009, 06:08:53 AM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on March 01, 2009, 10:40:26 PM
Where were the jewels, anyway? Barnabas lived off of them in multiple time periods, so were they actually in the coffin? Could that be why they showed up in the crystal ball, rather than through Barnabas's powers? I can't think why they'd be in a coffin, but I also can't think why they'd be stashed in some other place where he and no one in the rest of the family knows where they are, someplace outside of the Big House itself.

Hmm, thought just struck me that maybe it wasn't in the coffin, but possibly a secret compartment in the mausoleum? We DO know that the existing secret room was originally built to hide guns. Perhaps the room itself had several secret hiding spots, in which jewels were hidden. It would make sense, being the area was so close to Canada, and troops passing through would probably be interested in lifting anything small and portable like jewels. Maybe all the valuables were stashed in hiding places like that during the Revolution -- and were reused for whatever reason in the 1790s.

Jeannie
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: MagnusTrask on March 03, 2009, 06:25:23 AM: Interesting...
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on March 06, 2009, 05:53:06 AM: Quote from: Midnite on March 01, 2009, 06:02:04 AM
Lydia, I hope you'll get to see MB's capture (for today's new quote) of the arrangement of the I Ching wands on the table. It does look like we're seeing the broken sides, and not the tops, of a couple of the wands.

As that particular capture/quote is gone, here's a copy:

(http://www.dsboards.com/quoteimages/0228ds_0.jpg)
1969: Ep #700 - Stokes: 'It's the 49th, or Ko, Hexagram.'
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: Midnite on March 06, 2009, 06:41:40 AM: Thanks!
Title: Re: Discuss - Ep #0701
Post by: dom on March 06, 2009, 08:09:48 AM: [snow_huh] I wonder who on the DS payroll came up with the idea of using the I Ching for the purpose of time travel? Does anyone know?