DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '08 II => Topic started by: EmeraldRose on September 26, 2008, 05:23:39 AM
-
I don't know if this poll is a repeat or not. If so, I'm sorry. This is the first time I've started a poll. [milestone] I was just wondering what you all think about this subject. [ghost_wink]
----- Sally -----
[coolg] [hippy2]
-
I'm pretty sure that one of the writers (Sam Hall, I think, or maybe Gordon Russell) confirmed it at a Fest, so I'm voting yes. [ghost_tongue2]
-
I believe that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother. [ghost_smiley]
At the 2003 DS Fest in Brooklyn, NY, I saw the actors perform Return to Collinwood. It was revealed that Liz was indeed Vicki's mother. I was overjoyed to hear that! [ghost_cheesy]
Also, after recently re-watching some of the pre-Barnabas episodes, I now believe that the butler, B. Hanscombe, was Vicki's father, and Betty Hanscombe was either Vicki's sister, cousin or aunt. [ghost_rolleyes]
----- Sally -----
[coolg] [hippy2]
-
I too beleive it was B.Hanscombe who Liz had an affair with and it prodcued Victoria. And the portrait"POP" painted was her sister. I have also been watching the Beginning DVDS. They are so great. It is wonderful to finally see how one of my favorite shows began. I am now in The Laura episodes and it is probably gonna turn out to be in the top two of my favorite storylines! 1995 is number one right now. We will see!!
-
I don't know if this poll is a repeat or not. If so, I'm sorry.
There's no need to apologize or wonder about it because that's one of the easier searches, and a good place for you to begin using the feature, since polls are archived in the same place.
Open the Polls Archive board, which you can find inside the Current Talk Archive, and enter your key words into the Search box at the top of the topics list; this will search for results only in that board.
Or, you can get the same results from an advanced search-- which is a link that comes up when you click the Search button in the menu on any page-- by entering your key words and checking only the Polls Archive box. Again, that will search for results that are only in the PA board. I hope that helped you with your next poll!
-
What if VW had been revealed to have been Liz's great-great-great (etc) grandmother because she left Peter and married another Collins in 1795? Wait, that would have to have been Joshua...
-
Thanks, Midnite. [ghost_wink] I followed your instructions, and found that this poll is not repetitious. [whew]
----- Sally -----
[coolg] [hippy2]
-
Magnus, I think you hurt my brain a little with that one. [ghost_cheesy]
-
When I did my Charles-Delaware-Trollish version of what-would-have-happened-if-DS-had-continued, I did a whole plot-line in which it was revealed that Liz had conceived Vicki while serving as a WAC in New York City during which she had a brief but passionate affair with a young soldier with whom she had fallen madly in love. He died in the Normandy invasion, and Liz's parents kept her in seclusion in NYC during her pregnancy until early 1945 when she gave birth and her daughter was quickly whisked away to the orphanage.
Gerard
-
Wait, that would have to have been Joshua...
Or Daniel..... [ghost_shocked]
-
In the original storyline, Jeremiah and Josette were Liz's direct ancestors so it made more sense that Vickie looked like Josette and the Josette was her guardian angel. This changed once Barnabas came in the picture and the new writers changed history. I always thought that Vickie was Liz's daughter and seeing the early episodes and how Joan played the story reinforces this for me.
-
What if VW had been revealed to have been Liz's great-great-great (etc) grandmother because she left Peter and married another Collins in 1795? Wait, that would have to have been Joshua...
LOL Hey, Joshua could have remarried... somebody.
Vicki and Daniel? Eek. ;)
What a sweet avatar, alwaysdavid!
-
Carolyn is eighteen. How old is Victoria?
-
Vicki is 20 when DS starts.
-
I voted yes [ghost_smiley] And I enjoyed the Return To Collinwood scenario- it seemed a natural fit.
Cathy
-
Elizabeth was Vicki's mama. I will never believe otherwise.
-
I read that the resemblance between JB and AM was part of the reason they cast AM as Vicki. JB said she played the story as if she were Vicki's mother, and watching the early episodes it seems pretty obvious that Liz is Vicki's mother. And Return to Collinwood confirms it. So does the DS novel Dreams of the Dark, in an unspoken manner.
As far as I'm concerned Liz is Vicki's mother. I hope that the Big Finsih audio plays bring AM back as Vicki and do more with that story, giving us more details as to why she gave Vicki away, who her father is, etc.
Who do you guy sthink her father is? I've read fan fiction that had her father be Petofi (in Aristed's youthful body) and Judah Zachery thru possession of somebody. Jason McGuire would be an interesting choice, and he did tease Vicki that he knew something about her origins...
Sam Evans would be a nice choice, as it would make Vicki and Maggie half-sisters. I do rather like that option.
-
I believe Jason taunted Vicki about her past because he knew that poisonous barb would hurt her. He probably knew nothing.
The idea that Liz would have messed around with the butler doesn't jibe with me. I like the thing about the soldier. That would make more sense than anything else. Then again, you never know...
-
I don't like the idea of Jason being the father because he had absolutely NO chemistry with Liz- not even any hint or any flicker of something from the past. Which worked perfectly in the storyline, because it made Jason's moves to marry Liz all the more repulsive! A soldier would surely be a sweet story. I don't really have any other good ideas, but I'd like to think it was someone Liz loved, but for whatever reason, it was a forbidden or impossible relationship.
Cathy
-
EmeraldRose, I'd actually planned to make a post to this effect but you beat me to it. Great minds think alike. [winkb]
I vote yes - I definitely believe that Vicki was Elizabeth's illegitimate daughter!
Jason McGuire would be an interesting choice, and he did tease Vicki that he knew something about her origins...
My theory is that Jason is indeed her father! [ghost_cheesy]
I know which scene you're talking about, and it's the one that made me think about the possibility. I haven't believed otherwise since.t's actually something I've thought a lot about (because I have no life).
Although, before that, I did seriously consider the idea of Bill Malloy being her father.
I didn't know that Return to Collinwood confirmed Elizabeth as Victoria's mother! Do they go into any details?
-
Jason her father??? No. No, I say. you actualy think that Liz would have woo-hooed with Jason?
-
I thought Jason had great sexual chemistry with Liz, in a wrong dirty sort of way. Ironicly, I didn't find any chemistry between Paul and Liz, but Liz was [spoiler]a Leviathon pawn then so she wasn't really herself.[/spoiler] I think Jason was probably just being hurtful to Vicki, but maybe he remembered his time with Liz and noted the close relationship between Liz and Vicki and figured there was a chance that she was his.
If somebody can put this in a spoiler box I'd appreciate it, I have no idea how to do that.
Return to Collinwood has [spoiler]the reading of Liz's will, in which she reveals that she was Vicki's mother. It doesn't give any details about her father or why she gave her up, but does discuss a little of Liz's feelings in bringing Vicki to Collinwood, her intentions toward Vicki then of making her part of the family and why Liz never told the truth. Nancy Barrett does a great job reacting to the news. Sadly, Vicki isn't present in the story though, so Carolyn's reaction is the center of that scene, but NB knocks that scene out of the park.[/spoiler] I really recommend RtC , and the newer Big Finish cds, they are a great continuation of DS.
-
Jason her father??? No. No, I say. you actualy think that Liz would have woo-hooed with Jason?
[laughing11] I like your term for it! Makes me think of the Sims 2. But, anyway, back on subject...
I believe it's possible, under the right circumstances. From what we hear about Liz and Paul's marriage, we can assume that it wasn't a very happy one. Jason was always hanging around Collinwood with Paul, and he's a great con artist, so he could probably talk her into just about anything and then make her think it was all her idea. Especially if he took advantage of a particularly dark moment for her, say, after a huge fight with Paul - she's depressed, confused, possibly dipping into the brandy... I think it could happen. And Jason was probably pretty charming, albeit slimy, in his younger years.
Besides, everyone makes mistakes. Elizabeth is, obviously, no exception.
Now, I'm by no means 100% committed to the specifics here. It's just offer it as a possible scenario.
I thought Jason had great sexual chemistry with Liz, in a wrong dirty sort of way.
I saw that too, which is something else that lends to my theory.
And thank you so much for your response about Return to Collinwood! I've been meaning to check it out, but now I want to even more!
-
For instructions on inserting spoilers, check out the 1st post of the topic mentioned in the Board News line atop any page. Hope that helped. :)
-
I never got that vibe from Jason. It was all about money with him, when he was on the show and when he was hanging with Paul back in the day. Even Paul just married her for the money I thought [spoiler]I haven't seen his return in the Leviathan story yet[/spoiler]
Personally, I do think Liz was the baby mama [ghost_tongue2], but as for the father, I think I favor the Charles Delaware Troll version, if not specifically, then in general:
[spoiler]Liz fell in love and got in trouble and Jamison to safeguard the reputation and the family name, forced Liz to give up the baby arranged for its care and greased a lot of palms to hush it up and change/destroy any records.[/spoiler]
-
[spoiler]I haven't seen his return in the Leviathan story yet[/spoiler]
[spoiler]You really can't go by his return during the Leviathan storyline. They took away much of the intrigue about him. And they committed some rather obvious inconsistencies: We heard it enough to know that Paul "left" Elizabeth eighteen years ago from 1966/67, making Carolyn a baby at the time. Yet when the Leviathans conjure up a "ghost" of Carolyn supposedly just as she looked the last time Paul saw her before he left, we get a girl about Amy's age. [ghost_huh][/spoiler]
-
my reasons for not going for the liz-is-vicki's-mother theory are long and myriad.
but one of the main ones is simply this.this was never actually spelled out for us in specifics on the show itself.
for me only what actually happened on the original series between 1966 and 1971 is "cannon".anything else is just speculation or reinterpretation.it's not "real" if real is a word that can accurately be used to describe a completely fictitious situation.
yes the "return to collinwood" presentation "confirmed" that liz was vicki's mother but that was simply an amusing production written around the actors who were present at this event.if i recall it also had carolyn marrying ned stuart which is hardly cannon as far as i'm concerned.
this production also varies widely from what is supposed to have happened to these people from other "official" continuations of the series like the 'big finish' audiodramas and lara parkers books.they all tell different stories so what is actually "real"?
and yes in later years both joan bennett and alexandra isles "confirmed" this as well because it's the fan favorite but in truth neither of them actually "know" this to be a fact because this mystery was never actually solved on the series.it was never written into the scripts.the storyline was abandoned.
so to me this isn't "officially" part of the d.s. lore.
-
and yes in later years both joan bennett and alexandra isles "confirmed" this as well because it's the fan favorite but in truth neither of them actually "know" this to be a fact because this mystery was never actually solved on the series.it was never written into the scripts.the storyline was abandoned.
It definitely isn't my favorite, so if that was indeed a factor in popularizing this popular concept, I think that's regrettable.
I thought Elizabeth treated Victoria more as if she might know something about who she really is but not as her own secret daughter. Having looked closely at the evidence at one time, I don't think this was the writers' original intent. At least, a strong case (in my view, a stronger case) can be made in support of other possibilities. In particular, I think DS writer Francis Swann had a completely different take on the situation based on his early scripts. But he left the show and the mystery was eventually allowed to fade into the carpet.
-
i agree philippe...
as written it appeared that liz knew much more about vicki's origins than she let on but was not herself vicki's mother.that's what i read into it.
but we'll never know will we?
-
You know, I was just watching a pre-Barnabas episode the other night. It was during the Bill Malloy murder mystery, and Elizabeth was very upset with Victoria for supposedly abandoning her duties as governess. Liz was so upset she even mentioned to Carolyn that she was going to fire Victoria.
This just doesn't strike me as the actions of a long-lost mother who has finally reunited with her secret daughter. I agree with those who say the writing of the earlier episodes tends more towards Elizabeth not being Victoria's mother, but knowing a good deal about the girl's origins.
Emotionally I'm very attracted to the idea of Elizabeth as Vicki's mother, but intellectually, I just can't make that leap, despite Joan Bennett's belief in the relationship. Clues in the early episodes just seem to point elsewhere (like the Betty Hanscomb portrait), though I still believe Victoria almost HAD to have some relationship to the Collins family, and that Elizabeth was the one behind those monthly checks to the foundling home. So count me as one of the few undecided voters.
-
I would like to correct my blooper about the wording of the poll. [signerror] It should have said, "Do you believe that Elizabeth Collins Stoddard was Victoria Winters' mother?" Sorry about that. [hall2_rolleyes] Maybe one of our esteemed moderators could correct it. [beg]
----- Sally -----
[coolg] [hippy2]
-
what's interesting about this topic is it's very nature.
that it's all just speculation with many of us using our emotions for two fictitious human beings as a guide.
what's also interesting,in an odd and unsatisfying way,is that the show itself chose not to solve one of it's key mysteries.once it was decided that the show was moving in a new(supernatural)direction this could have been cleared up with a few words.indeed the scenes leading up to vicki and jeff's ill-fated wedding would have been the perfect time and joan bennett certainly played them from a decidedly maternal point of view.but for whatever reason the writers chose to leave this open-ended.
perhaps it's just the destiny of victoria winters to forever be an orphan.it's elemental to the character's nature.
-
in an odd and unsatisfying way,is that the show itself chose not to solve one of it's key mysteries.once it was decided that the show was moving in a new(supernatural)direction this could have been cleared up with a few words.indeed the scenes leading up to vicki and jeff's ill-fated wedding would have been the perfect time and joan bennett certainly played them from a decidedly maternal point of view.but for whatever reason the writers chose to leave this open-ended.
You make a good point - that the question of Victoria Winter's parentage could have been cleared up, and the time of her wedding would have been a perfect time to do it.
I would ask, though, if every mystery or unexplained event on the show had been explained ... if the show would have been as memorable, or as stimulating to the brain cells. Would there be as much interesting food for thought and discussion?
One thing that makes DS different from a run-of-the-mill TV show, I think, is the fact that it seems to have deliberately left a number of questions unanswered. There is ambiguity and room for interpretation, just as one finds in a higher order of literature.
Cassandra Blair, do you recall how we came up with a solution to the question of Victoria Winters' parentage?
I confess I don't remember the details, though I think I transferred and saved those posts on my laptop. I recall that one aspect to my explanation hinged on the Betty Hanscomb picture and the inspiration I believed the writers (probably Francis Swann) drew from Wilkie Collins' "The Woman in White."
-
Cassandra Blair, do you recall how we came up with a solution to the question of Victoria Winters' parentage?
I confess I don't remember the details, though I think I transferred and saved those posts on my laptop. I recall that one aspect to my explanation hinged on the Betty Hanscomb picture and the inspiration I believed the writers (probably Francis Swann) drew from Wilkie Collins' "The Woman in White."
See: Re: Victoria Winters
(All posts on the VantageNet board were, unfortunately, deleted by that host.)
-
I guess we never know...
-
I had heard a theory a long time ago that Betty was Jameson's illigitimate daughter, and that Paul and Betty were Vicki's parents, making Liz the aunt of Vicki. Liz then sent monthly checks for Vicki's care out of guilt after she thought she killed Paul.
It's an interesting theory, but it doesn't have any real emotional pull on me the way Liz as Vicki 's mother does. The evidence on the show is inconclusive, but between teh evidence in Dreams of the Dark and Return to Collinwood, the opinions of JB and AMI, and my own emotional connection to that relationship, I consider the matter fairly well resolved for me, although I hope Big Finish does an audio down the road to delve further into the mysteries of our Miss Winters ( Dare I hope for AMI to actually star in an audio?.
I have read that Big Finish considers their audios to be a prequel series to Return to Collinwood. There's nothing that contradicts them from being in the same continuity, RtC just seems to be set 20+ years later. Lara Parker's first novel, which was abridged as an audio book read by Lara Parker by Big Finish, also fits in with the other audio continuity pretty well. He rsecond novel, the Salem Branch, does have events that would make fitting in with the audios more difficult, but if I squint I can just about reconcile them.
As for Carolyn and Ned, with repeated relistening I rather like them togather. The more mature Ned is nothing like the Ned we saw on tv ( who was either pawing at Sabrina in an incestous manner or screaming at Chris) , the older Ned seems pretty much like what you'd expect form a more mature and settled down Jeff Clark. 30+ years had passed since the end of the series, so the characters have grown and developed new relationships. I can deal with that. I find RtC overall to be an excellent revisitng of those characters. What does drive me crazy with remorse is that Violet Chavez Collins was supposed to be Laura Stockbridge Collins. Oh for what could have been!
-
Thank you very much to the moderator who changed the wording of my poll! I have found the slogan, "Ask and ye shall receive," applies here. [hall_wink]
----- Sally -----
[coolg] [hippy2]
-
I don't buy into Liz being Vicki's mother for several reasons. One, Liz is not going to leave her daughter in a box on the front steps of an orphanage. Two, Liz is not going to throw a daughter out of the house for any reason like what might have happened because of David. I think a likely scenario is that Liz grew to womanhood along with the daugher of the Collinwood butler Hanscomb. The daugher Betty, ended up having an affair with a sea tramp who perhaps also put the moves on Liz at the same time. Betty had no where to turn so Liz gave her money to go to New York to start a new life for herself and the baby. Betty left the baby at the orphanage with personal belongings from her life at Collinwood. The orphange contacted Liz and she provided a monthly supplement for the baby's care at the orphanage. Betty disappeared into New York never to be seen or heard from again.
-
It's a romantic notion to think that Liz is Vicki's mother and I voted yes in the poll, because I am a softie and sometimes I just like happy endings tied in neat packages (perhaps that one of the reasons I like Charles Delaware Troll's Final year fan fiction so much).
But if I look at it from a more objective viewpoint, I can see that the writers were probably going to go a different way, inasmuch as they ever planned to resolve it. It's obvious that Liz knows more about Vicki's parentage than she will ever tell, and is trying to hide that from her. To keep the story going and build suspense, of course the writers are going to give us red herrings: Is Liz her mother? Or does she know who is? Who is B. Hanscombe? Why is Liz being deliberately obstructive? To spare Vicki pain or protect the family name? and what does Jason Maguire know about it all? (I think that was the last gasp of the storyline before the Barnabas story crowded most everything else out).
Another, older thread Midnight very kindly pointed me to posited that Liz' father might have been Vicki's father having dallied with Hanscombe's pretty daughter and got her in trouble. "Shadows on the Wall" suggested another origin for Vicki (Paul's daughter, IIRC).
Even though the writers seemed to forget the story, it does make a sort of sense not to resolve it. Vicki has an obsession with her past in particular and the past in general. That led her into the past and to literally fall in love with the past (in Peter Bradford). She is rudderless and due to her not having an "anchor" to her present through her personal past, she anchors herself to "a" past, Peter and his past so it becomes natural in a way for her to be far more emotional about Jeff/Peter disappearing and her ardent desire to be with him than she ever was about about Burke's death, and to be desperate to find a way to rejoin Peter.
-
It is hard to imagine Liz leaving her baby in a box at an orphanage, but consider this would have happpened in the 40's, with Liz probablu under extreme pressure from her parents, and who knows what sort of problems there were with the father. Perhaps Liz was trying to protect Viki from her father, who may have been dangerous, and the possibility seem more likely. LIz did always seem very concerned with the family's honor.
I think it's great that we all can imagine so many different answers to this mystery.
-
I had heard a theory a long time ago that Betty was Jameson's illigitimate daughter, and that Paul and Betty were Vicki's parents, making Liz the aunt of Vicki. Liz then sent monthly checks for Vicki's care out of guilt after she thought she killed Paul.
Yes, that was the theory I came up with along with Cassandra Blair, which Midnite has kindly provided a link for. This theory is a bit more elaborate than my original idea, which was a bit simpler but which also satisfies the evidence. The original idea was first suggested by a now-unknown DS fan named "Bob", although I believe I refined or changed it slightly. I'll try to reconstruct that scenario briefly based on memory and going over the post that Midnite has provided the link to.
Both my original theory and the more elaborate one with Cassandra Blair take into account the sketch of Betty Hanscomb and references to a butler at Collinwood named Hanscomb; to this I adduced possible inspiration from the 19th century Gothic mystery "The Woman in White," in which the unknown woman of mystery turns out to be the half-sister of the heroine. The name "Hanscomb" is the key here - it's not a very common name, and seems more than coincidental that the DS writers came up with this name in a mystery that simillarly concerns a young woman's unknown origins and her connection to a family of wealth and prestige.
We know that Elizabeth and Roger's father was Jamison Collins. In this scenario, Jamison later had an affair with the young daughter of his butler Hanscomb, named Betty. The affair produced Victoria. Hence Victoria Winters is a Collins and the younger half-sister of Elizabeth and Roger. Sam Evans' sketch of Betty clearly resembles Victoria. Sam most likely knew that Betty Hanscomb, who spent a lot of time at Collinwood, had had an illegitimate daughter and then died young. When Sam saw how much Victoria looked like his sketch of Betty, he probably guessed that she was Betty's daughter and that the father might have been Jamison Collins - especially knowing that Victoria had been brought to Collinwood by Elizabeth Collins Stoddard. I believe that all the servants at Collinwood had been fired at about the time of Betty Hanscomb's pregnancy obviously in an effort to stop gossip.
The more elaborate version of this scenario has a couple of things going for it that add interest but aren't really necessary. This version suggests that Jamison Collins had an affair with a daughter of his butler Hanscomb, and that this affair produced Betty Hanscomb (who obviously did not inherit the Collins name but her mother's name). Betty Hanscomb is the half sister of Elizabeth and Roger. Sam Evans' sketch of Betty Hanscomb not only looks like Victoria, but also Elizabeth, which is explained by this scenario. A further twist is that Victoria Winters was the product of an affair between Betty Hanscomb and Paul Stoddard. Elizabeth knew of the affair and of her husband's illegitimate daughter (Carolyn's half-sister) and made provisions to support her. Victoria Winters, then, was a descendant of Jamison Collins and the niece of Elizabeth Collins. Perhaps this more complex version is more in keeping with the convoluted relationships found in soap opera tradition.
Finally, let me offer this quotation from an interview with Dan Curtis, heard on one of the DVDs. Mr. Curtis was asked why the question of Victoria Winters' identity was never resolved. Mr. Curtis responded:
"We never got around to what Vicki's background was, and I never knew it."
I believe this accurately reflects the early days of writing and producing Dark Shadows. The writers would seem to have been given some guidelines and suggestions, but were free to develop their own ideas too. It's significant that all of the scripts using my ideas above are attributed to Francis Swann, who was also a novelist. In my opinion, it was largely in order to satisfy fans that DC decided to legitimize the idea that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother. I think that was one of the possibilities and may have been the suggestion Joan Bennett followed, but I think that was only one hint among many that was suggested in the early days of the mystery - and there were sure to be many suggestions and red herrings to keep viewers interested.
-
It is hard to imagine Liz leaving her baby in a box at an orphanage
To be a bit pedantic for a moment, it's hard to imagine anyone leaving an infant at the door of an orphanage in winter in New York! One hopes there was at least a large mail box or the 1940s equivalent to a pet door to slip her in out of the cold! [hall2_grin]
Phillippe, I imagine Jamison might have paid off the Hanscomb's and arranged for them to leave Collinsport, but AIUI, the dismissing of the whole household staff didn't occur until [spoiler]after Elizabeth's poker incident with Paul Stoddard. [/spoiler]
Off topically regarding Jamison Collins for a moment, apart from establishing him as the father of Liz and Roger, does the show ever reveal anything else about him, when he died etc.? I'm just trying to place him agewise into the narrative at a point where it would be plausible for him to have fathered Victoria. By my calculations, he would have been approximately 61-62 at the time. Oh, dear, I just had this really wicked thought that he might have died while making love to Betty Hanscomb! [hall2_shocked]
-
I'm satisfied with the notion that Victoria is the daughter of Betty Hanscomb. I rather like the idea of Jamison (Liz & Roger's father) being her father. Victoria by virture of her birth is an heir to the Collins fortunes.
-
I rather like the idea of Jamison (Liz & Roger's father) being her father. Victoria by virture of her birth is an heir to the Collins fortunes.
Miss Wintrop, were this true, Victoria wouldn't have lived long:
a) because of Roger
b) because of the curse placed on anyone Barnabas loves would die
Earlier mentioned, parentage cleared up at her wedding:
I can picture Roger mentioning to Victoria if she were kin of any kind; I love his behavior during these scenes!
Patti
-
I've been rewatching DS from the beginning and just saw the episode
where Vicki finds the Betty Hanscomb portrait. Sam states that he painted
the portrait 25 years ago. He goes on to say 6 month later Betty left town.
And that 5 or 6 months later Betty died. And all this happened long before
Vicki was born.
Another episode that I had forgot about Bill Malloy was drinking and talking
about how 20 years ago he had made a life changing mistake of some sort.
I'm wondering if this had something to do with Vicki?
-
I remember addressing this point in the now long-lost discussion on the old Vantage Net board. Somewhere in a box of files filled with miscellaneous papers in another house in another state, a printout of that thread may exist - but if I ever find it, it will probably be by accident. Anyway, I’m trying to remember my thoughts on this.
It may be that if Sam said “25 years ago” he was not only giving a rough estimate (“give or take five years”) but he may also have been trying to throw Vicki off. When you get to an advanced age (say, over 45 – not saying whether or not I’m there yet), it can be very difficult to place past events accurately. This may be fudging with what’s stated (“25 years ago”), but if Sam guesses the truth about Victoria, he may not want to be the person responsible for helping her uncover that truth.
Regarding Jamison Collins’ age if he did father Victoria, I remember working that out, and he definitely would have been up there in age, at least in his 60s. That does give me some pause as to whether he was her father. Partly because of that, I gravitated more towards the second scenario I outlined, where Jamison fathered Betty Hanscomb, who in turn was Victoria’s mother.
-
When Vickie asked anyone who knew Betty if they thought her picture looked like her, they said no, but when Carolyn saw it she thought it was Vickie.
-
I don't think you can discount Sam's statement of his memory of
when he painted Betty's portrait so easily. And I can't see any
reason for him to lie. With the one exception - [spoiler]his lie about "Burke
driving the car" cover up[/spoiler] - Sam seems to be a very truthful person.
And to point in the episodes where I am now watching - the 2
people (Sam and Maggie) besides Vicki who have seen the portrait
have said it looks like her. Sam points out that Vicki looks like the
portrait. Around the nose and mouth.
-
I can see every reason why someone might want to steer another person away from something they suspect about the person's background that has been hushed up. Unless Sam or that person is a gossip, which I don't think fits his character. The 1960s wasn't the Age of Ophrah (confessional television) when everyone feels comfortable airing every aspect of their personal life in front of a national audience. People had a greater sense of privacy then and respect for letting sleeping dogs lie. Maybe if Vicki pllied Sam with a few drinks, he'd be more forthcoming. [hall2_lipsrsealed]
One question I have is whether Victoria's age is established. In the 1991 Revival Series, which I'm currently viewing, it's stated in the first or second episode that Victoria Winters is "a 25 year old girl." Was the Victoria Winters of the original series stated to be younger than that?
-
Was the Victoria Winters of the original series stated to be younger than that?
Yes - when the series begins Vicki is 20.
-
Sam is basically a truthful person, but he is also a drunk. He's been drinking steadily for ten years. And while he's been drinking to forget something else altogether, I think he might just be legitimately hazy on the exact time he painted that portrait.
-
Here's another weird idea that's come to me: Vicki looks like Betty, and Betty is a diminutive of Elizabeth, so another explanation might be that Betty Hanscomb is Liz. She used that name as an alias when she was hanging out in town and didn't want folks to know she was a Collins. Liz is the one who sat for the portrait of Betty, and perhaps it was "Betty" who then got into some trouble and gave up her child for adoption. Liz married Paul Stoddard soon after, and "Betty" left town and "died."
BTW, I like Julianka's theory. It would be really cool if Bill Malloy was Vicki's Dad [spoiler]and later returns from the grave not only to avenge his murder but save the life of his daughter. Maybe that is why Victoria (after David) is the first resident of modern day Collinwood to see and communicate with ghosts.[/spoiler]
I've always thought he had more than a professional regard for Liz, and what if in their youths Bill and Ned Calder were suitors of Liz?
-
That's an interesting theory, Nelson Collins! The first time I saw that early episode in which Vicki found the portrait of Betty Hanscomb, I wondered if Sam was telling tales, because the drawing looked like Liz as well as Vicki, and Betty is a diminutive of Elizabeth. I wondered at the time if maybe Sam was keeping Liz's secret because he'd been in some way involved. Maybe he acted as a go-between for Liz/Betty and Bill Malloy?
But, going along with what Philippe Cordier mentioned about our earlier take on Vicki's parentage, I do have to wonder if Betty Hanscomb wasn't Liz's half sister and Vicki's mother.
All of the theories advanced here carry some degree of believability. I really wish the writers had revealed the truth of Victoria's background during the run of the show, but since they didn't, we now have a really interesting topic to bandy about!
-
incidentally...
the portrait of betty handscomb doesn't just "look like" vicki but is in fact a line-for-line copy of a publicity photograph of alexandra moltke that i bought at the fest a few years ago.the dealer told me it was probably taken in 1965/6 just around the time she was cast in the series.
-
another thought...
it's interesting that,as philippe pointed out,even dan curtis himself did not know how this particular plot was to be played out.perhaps soap operas don't plan themselves out so far in advance.they open with a series of storylines and they work themselves out over time dependant on a number of factors.this one,alas,was not to be solved but perhaps that adds to the mystery.
i believe that mysterious mentioned that in the 1991 series it was eventually to be revealed that vicki was in fact elizabeth's daughter but the series was cancelled before that could take place.again perhaps it is simply the destiny of this character to forever be this orphaned waif.it's elemental to her nature.
to get very off-topic the speculative,emotional nature of this conversation reminds me of something else that is endlessly bandied about...the old "did barnabas love julia?" chestnut.
now of course barnabas could not have in fact loved julia because they are not real people with real emotions.they are just characters played by two actors who were handed scripts every morning and asked to recite them.but within those paramaters they were very talented actors who brought alot of subtlety and nuance to the work and thus all of the speculation and emotionalism.
as scripted,barnabas never in fact professed love for julia.he professed love for lots of other women...josette,victoria,roxanne and even his nemesis angelique...but not julia.he expressed other emotions...hatred,reliance,affection,...but never love.
his expressed love for angelique,which infuriates many fans,actually took place within the scripts and thus must be accepted as "cannon" no matter how much we dislike or want to disbelieve it.it happened within the paramaters the show set for itself.it sucks but in effect it's "true".
however since a profession of "love" never gets scripted between barnabas and julia it becomes the nuance of the actors and it's implications that lends itself to so much interpretation.
much the same way that the performances of joan bennett and alexandra moltke lend themselves to all of the speculation in this topic.
-
[128]
I have to agree with EmeraldRose and lots of others on this thread. I totally agree that Victoria is Elizabeth's daughter. I can see some of us think alike along those lines. In my own DS fan fiction, I've delved into that subject (with more to come). I've used the Hanscomb name, a soldier, and WWII (specifically the END as in VE Day). I've also written several letters that are revealed in the course of events which shed light on certain questions.
I must admit, Elizabeth's coldness to Victoria on several occasions messes up my perfect scenario, but I chalk it up to years of seclusion, guilt, and various other Collins family traits. If Elizabeth was willing to have Victoria so close, yet wasn't quite ready to reveal all, she may have felt backed up against a wall with all of Victoria's questions, and dug in her heels in true Collins fashion.
[9366]
-
The writers would want to throw in some red herrings to the mystery of Vickie's mother being Elizabeth to keep up the suspense. Liz didn't really begin to trust Vickie enough to confide in her until the Jason storyline and then there is the question once she told Vickie after all this time how would she react and would she want to tell people and stir up gossip about the Collins family. All these things should weigh on Liz's mind.
-
[female_skull]
Some great theories cousins! I had also thought that Betty Hanscombe could have been Liz as a young woman!
-
I do seem to recall a scene where Liz opens the front door at Collinwood and Sam is standing there. There seems to be a slight hesitation between the both of them as if a memory of something in the past passed before them but then they both immediately reverted to people who are barely acquaintances reacting to one another. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.
-
I do seem to recall a scene where Liz opens the front door at Collinwood and Sam is standing there. There seems to be a slight hesitation between the both of them as if a memory of something in the past passed before them but then they both immediately reverted to people who are barely acquaintances reacting to one another. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.
That did happen. Their face to face was a cliffhanger, which might explain the hesitation you're remembering. When the scene resumes, they introduce themselves to each other and Sam reveals that it had been more than 18 years since they'd met, and as you said, both behaved as mere acquaintances. It did not play out at all as if Sam had played an important role in Liz's past.
-
It definitely isn't my favorite, so if that was indeed a factor in popularizing this popular concept, I think that's regrettable.
I thought Elizabeth treated Victoria more as if she might know something about who she really is but not as her own secret daughter. Having looked closely at the evidence at one time, I don't think this was the writers' original intent. At least, a strong case (in my view, a stronger case) can be made in support of other possibilities. In particular, I think DS writer Francis Swann had a completely different take on the situation based on his early scripts. But he left the show and the mystery was eventually allowed to fade into the carpet.
Philippe summed up my feelings EXACTLY. One scene that helped convince me that Liz is not Vicki's mother is when Liz [spoiler]forces herself to leave Collinwood, defeating her own fears for Carolyn's sake. It's Vicki that suggested she handle getting Carolyn released, telling her she must demonstrate her love for daughter by showing up at the jail, and Liz's mind seemed to remain fixed on Carolyn's and her own situation. Once Liz convinced herself that she must screw up her courage and leave the house in order to help the deeply troubled Carolyn, her exit played out like a slow march to the gallows.[/spoiler] We never saw Liz make a sacrifice approaching anything like this for Vicki, and there was no acknowledgment in this scene by Liz that she might actually have more than one daughter.
-
I have the DS 1991 comic book tie ins that were done ( and were canceled mid-story too). In one of them Roger and Liz talk about Vicki being her daughter.
It's not "cannon" to some people I know, but it is more evidence of Liz being Vicki's mother in that series too.
-
liz as vicki's mother in the 1991 series is a bit of a ho-hum as far as i'm concerned.
barnabas was clearly the centerpiece of this series,at least in terms of how season one played out,and there's no reason to believe that that was going to change.
the whole "jane eyre" aspect of the victoria character,a waif in search of her identity,was basically absent from this version,it was barely touched upon.and the elizabeth character had nowhere near the stature that joan bennett brought to the role in the original series.here she was written as a virtual nonentity.she had absolutely no storyline.
so unless the plotting had changed dramatically in season two and beyond this "revelation" would not have had much impact.
-
We never saw Liz make a sacrifice approaching anything like this for Vicki, and there was no acknowledgment in this scene by Liz that she might actually have more than one daughter.
Perhaps, but had the writers gone forward with story that Vicki was Liz' daughter, surely that very scenario would have provided much fodder for soap opera-y goodness, with Vicki glad that she has an identity but at the same time feeling used and even deceived by all the lies and evasions that Liz told.
What a tragic story it could have been for Vicki to lose Jeff, discover her true identity and just has she and Liz are learning to accept their new relationship, Vicki still waiting/grieving for Jeff, disappears into the past with him and leaves Liz heartbroken again....
-
NOW that would be a great storyline Nelson! [skull_winks]
-
I have the DS 1991 comic book tie ins that were done ( and were canceled mid-story too). In one of them Roger and Liz talk about Vicki being her daughter.
It's not "cannon" to some people I know, but it is more evidence of Liz being Vicki's mother in that series too.
It's not cannon for the old show but for the new one for sure!
-
Vicki was only written out into the past becasue AM's recast hadn't worked out. The "91 series if it had continued would probably not have written Vicki out, instead, Vicki would have probably replaced Maggie in the following storyline remakes of 1897, Leviathons, Paralell Time, etc.
Also, as the Barnabas/Vicki romance was much more important in the remake, I doubt the Jeff/Vicki romance would've gone s deep as it did in the original. It's all specualtion of course.
Wouldn't it have been great to see Joannna Going as the bitchy Kitty Soames? I could cry just thinking how wonderful Barbara Steele would have been as Magda.
-
Well I for one would have hoped they would do The Leviathans after the last disaster although I love the Leviathans. However, yes I have almost cried many times just imagining the RIOT Barbara Steele would have been as Magda! [8_1_202]
-
I would ask, though, if every mystery or unexplained event on the show had been explained ... if the show would have been as memorable, or as stimulating to the brain cells. Would there be as much interesting food for thought and discussion?
One thing that makes DS different from a run-of-the-mill TV show, I think, is the fact that it seems to have deliberately left a number of questions unanswered. There is ambiguity and room for interpretation, just as one finds in a higher order of literature.
Excellent point you make on the plot holes left open being what makes in this case DS more than a run of the mill show. It's a pattern that's been seen in fandom for a number of years.
Many of the shows that attract longstanding loyal fandoms are those who to be blunt, leave plot holes and inconsistancies that you could drive a fleet of Death Stars through. It's the unanswered questions, the contradictions and confusions that get and keep fans talking, and inspire mountains of fanfic attempting to make things make sense. The prime example of this are the series and movies like Trek, DS, Man From Uncle, the Star Wars and Indiana Jones movies. Many many unanswered questions, and very active fandoms that have gone on for years.
Contrast that with Babylon 5, a wonderful series beloved by most fans. It was carefully crafted, and an entire universe and political system shown in the 5 year run, most of which was written by the series creator. JMS had a plan in mind, like a visual novel, with a beginning, middle and an end. He was active on the boards in the early days of the on line Services, when B5 was in first run. He politely asked (and fandom being what it is -- and most espeically was back then virtually everyone complied) that everyone wait and see where he was going before publishing any fanfiction. Only a small number of people went ahead against his wishes. But, when the series came to an end, there wasn't much left to write ABOUT, as he had filled almost all the loopholes and plotholes.
So, in a way you could say we're drawn to shows not totally because they are good and characters and situations grab us, but because of what DOESNT work, and how we can try to make it right.
Jeannie
-
I thought I had already made my last post to this thread, but ... this will be the last one [hall2_grin]
In looking through Art Wallace's concept for the series, "Shadows on the Wall", I realized that this is another source that needs to be taken into account. We know that many changes came about and that the "story bible" wasn't closely followed in many aspects. Still, this early plan for the series remains a valuable resource for the early days of DS. Wallace provides detailed character and background descriptions for all of the major players, and it was not the original plan for Elizabeth to secretly be Victoria’s mother.
I began years back with the belief that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother. But on what basis? Only that this was the widespread belief in DS fandom, so I just picked it up as the conventional wisdom. As I began watching the series closely, though, I was unconvinced of this theory and also noticed that there was evidence pointing in another direction.
I'm not saying that Elizabeth as Victoria's mother wasn't a possibility hinted at early in the series, but I am saying that that wasn't the original plan. Nor, in my view, was it the plan of Francis Swann, who wrote many of the scripts holding a number of clues. Even though there were some suggestions that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother (which probably came about because of the resemblance between Alexandra Moltke and Joan Bennett), the theory still doesn't strike me as confirmed, or even convincing.
-
There seems to be a few misconceptions in this topic, so I suppose they need to be cleared up. [hall2_smiley] Joan Bennett didn't merely decide on her own to play her scenes as if Liz was Vicki's mother, similar to, say, how Grayson Hall decided completely on her own to play her scenes with the subtext that Julia was in love with Barnabas. Nor was it that fans have simply jumped to the conclusion that Liz was Vicki's mother based on Alexandra Moltke's resemblance to Joan Bennett or with a desire that that would be the sentimental choice. The situation, as explained on several occasions by Robert Costello, who as DS' producer was in a position to know, was that as DS was being cast, the resemblance of Alexandra to Joan was noticed and Art Wallace decided he would deviate from his Shadows on the Wall bible to make Liz Vicki's mother rather than Paul Stoddard Vicki's father. And then, according to both Costello and Joan, she was told of the change and to play her scenes whenever possible with the subtext that Vicki was Liz' daughter. Those are the facts. Though, of course, the mystery of Vicki's parentage was never solved on DS, so the facts of what went on behind the scenes with regard to that plot thread have close to no bearing on canon because none of it was ever followed through on the actual show. Which is why fans will be forever able to speculate on Vicki's parentage and almost anyone's theory can be as valid as anyone else's. But make no mistake in thinking that Art Wallace didn't have an endgame in mind. It's just that his departure from the show and its subsequent turn into directions that he never envisioned caused the mystery of Vicki's past to be dropped almost as if it had never been an issue - which is actually sad...
-
Now that is very interesting, MB. I had forgotten that you had posted something like this years ago when we were discussing the subject (sorry if I haven't taken time to find that earlier thread) ... though I didn't recall it as being quite so definitive. Though I don't doubt what you say, it does still raise some questions in my mind. If events did transpire as Don Costello apparently said, then why didn't Dan Curtis, in the apparently recent interview I quoted above (which I haven't seen but was transcribed from one of the DVD releases), affirm this? I do remember that Mark Rainey has said that DC told him and his co-writer to make Elizabeth as Vicki's mother in their novel "Dreams of the Dark." DC's directive to them wouldn't necessarily mean that was always the case with the TV show, though.
The other questions I have are: if Art Wallace did change his mind on this regard, did he ever confirm this in an interview - or was he ever even asked about Vicki's parentage? And, finally, did Francis Swann, who is credited with numerous scripts from this period, ever confirm this in an interview? Or another writer, for that matter? I think this last and third question probably can't be answered as I believe Swann left the show and was not interviewed in DS fandom.
I'm not trying to play the devil's advocate, but I just wonder if there is anything in writing anywhere, where any of these people are concerned. A rather curious (to me) thought is whether Robert Costello's remarks are so widely known that this is the reason why the "Elizabeth is Vicki's mother" is the prevaiiling view. I had never heard this anywhere except in the previous online discussion (which I had completely forgotten). And so far in the present discussion, no one else had pointed to Robert Costello as the source or evidence for this point of view.
Again, I'm not trying to argue, because this does seem to make a convincing case - moreso than the evidence from the show itself, though, IMO. And of course some of the evidence on the show itself is open to interpretation, or else there wouldn't be this discussion. I'm willing to accept outside evidence if it does truly depict the intentions and agreement of the writers, producers, and directors. And unfortunately, we know that they haven't seen eye-to-eye on all occasions (e.g., Art Wallace & Dan Curtis). I really don't know anything about Don Costello, and I'm not trying to impugn what he said, just hoping for some confirmation since some questionable things have been related orally (and in print) by various DS alumni ...
-
I was pretty sure it was planned for Victoria to be Elizabeth's daughter. Thanks for reiterating what I thought were facts. However, like you said there can be speculation forever because this plotline didn't come to fruition on the screen! Which is terribly terribly sad and the worst dropped plotline on the entire show, in my opinion! [angry8] I think they should have at least given recasting another shot during the Leviathans [spoiler]rather than killing her off. Who was the idiot that thought that up?[/spoiler]
-
I have read that DC was in negotiations with AM to return during the Leviathons story, so the events that happened there may have been intended for a re-do of Barnabas rescuing her as he did in 1796. AM ultimately didn't return so that storyline was dropped.
So it's possible that DC didn't intend to leave Vicki's fate as it was. I prefer to think it happened that way. And with all the time travel in DS I like to think Vicki was saved later. I'm hoping that someday Big Finish can get Alexandra to return and do some audio plays as Vicki! Maybe they'll even do a time travel story to another time period and finally let AM play a villain like she wanted. Parallel Time Vicki maybe?
-
I think I posted earlier in this post about how I would have loved Victoria to return to PT instead of the route they went. However, that is getting a bit off topic. I like to think that Victoria is Liz's daughter, for some reason I think it fits and warms my heart! [hall2_grin]
-
this has turned into quite the topic hasn't it.
but let me add this...
as i said i'm with those who don't go for this theory despite behind the scenes discussions that would seem to support it.
is it really in the "character" of the character we all know and love to dump her first born child on the steps of some godforsaken orphanage in the dead of winter?
why would she do it?for starters the numbers don't add up.for the situation to make sense liz would have had to have been an extremely young,vulnerable girl.but when the series opened liz was in her late fifties and vicki was twenty.meaning she would have been in her thirties at the time of vicki's birth.why would a well off woman in her thirties do such a thing?
if liz had been vicki's mother and for some reason couldn't publicly claim her i'd like to think she would have kept her closer to home.perhaps "adopting" her and passing her off as the discarded child of poor unwed housemaid.
-
People do things in haste and when they are younger that they wouldn't do later on when they have matured. Liz may have been a different person at a younger age.
-
People do things in haste and when they are younger that they wouldn't do later on when they have matured. Liz may have been a different person at a younger age.
You make a good point Joeytrom. Elizabeth went thru some life altering times.
Including the huge one of [spoiler]thinking she killed her husband.[/spoiler] Giving birth, marriage,
death of a parent - all these could have a huge effect on a person.
Also, we must not forget at the time of Vicki's birth giving birth out of wedlock would
effect both the mother and the child. Both would be social outcasts.
And I don't mean just not being invited to parties. Finger pointing, whispers,
name calling - Collinsport is a small town.
Giving up such a child would be looked on then as for the child's own good. And who
is say what the leaving of Vicki on the doorstep was like. We don't know what the
weather or temps were like, how well bundled she was, if someone watched for the
door to be opened, or made sure that someone would be at the door by ringing a bell
or knocking.
-
Vicki was found in the winter, hence her last name, so winter in New York, it's hard to imagien the scen without it being bitter cold, snow coming down hard and fast, a teary eyed Elizabeth watching from around the corner to make sure baby Victoria was taken in.
It is worth noting how old Liz was at the time. A woman in her 30's, before she married in the 1940's, a very different time, unforgiving of a woman who had a child out of wedlock, and the stigma of bastard would have marked Vicki all her life if the truth were known. She may have belived that Vicki would be quickly adopted. And why wasn't Vicki adopted?
I think the social stigma and family honor alone would hav ebeen reason enough to giv eup a baby, but this is DS. Who knows what sort of villain or monster Vicky's father was. For all we know Liz may have discovered her lover had sworn to sacrifice his first born to the Devil.
As for Liz seeming to be on the verge of firing Vicki early in the series...my take on that was that Liz was getting cold feet about bringing Vicki into the family and was overwhelmed with how persistant Vicki was in seeking out the truth of her past, and how close Vikci was getting to the truth. Her anger and willingness to fire Vicki could have stemmed from her own fear of having her secrets exposed. We saw later how far she'd go when Jason McGuire blackmailed her.
-
If I was to suspend my belief that Liz is not Victoria's mother the following scenario could have been that Liz had communicated with the orphanage that she would be putting the baby up for adoption and provide monetary support for her until that she was adopted. Perhaps Victoria was told that she was left on the doorstep in the middle of winter as a way of keeping her from finding out the truth about her mother. But then once Vicki was at Collinwood, I believe that Liz would have told her the truth.
-
If events did transpire as (Robert) Costello apparently said, then why didn't Dan Curtis, in the apparently recent interview I quoted above (which I haven't seen but was transcribed from one of the DVD releases), affirm this? I do remember that Mark Rainey has said that DC told him and his co-writer to make Elizabeth as Vicki's mother in their novel "Dreams of the Dark." DC's directive to them wouldn't necessarily mean that was always the case with the TV show, though.
Sadly, I've learned not to put stock in much of anything DC might or might not have said when it came to his older projects. As has been documented on the forum in several different topics, he made way too many misstatements and jumbled up too many facts. [hall2_undecided]
The other questions I have are: if Art Wallace did change his mind on this regard, did he ever confirm this in an interview - or was he ever even asked about Vicki's parentage?
I've only seen one interview with Wallace, and the interviewer didn't ask him. [hall2_sad]
I'm not trying to play the devil's advocate, but I just wonder if there is anything in writing anywhere, where any of these people are concerned. A rather curious (to me) thought is whether Robert Costello's remarks are so widely known that this is the reason why the "Elizabeth is Vicki's mother" is the prevaiiling view. I had never heard this anywhere except in the previous online discussion (which I had completely forgotten). And so far in the present discussion, no one else had pointed to Robert Costello as the source or evidence for this point of view.
Costello's and Bennett's remarks were all made at various appearances at conventions/Fests. Video tapes of them probably exist, though I don't have copies. What I do have copies of are the transcripts of these appearances. They appeared in various '80s fanzines and also online in the mid '90s. However, I combed through several of my fanzines from the time and couldn't locate them. Nor could I find the transcripts online. Though I didn't have much hope of finding them online because, quite sadly, many of the DS sites that were in existence in the early-to-mid '90s have completely disappeared. [hall2_cry] Hopefully one day I'll come across the printed transcripts when I'm looking for something completely different (because doesn't it always happen that way? [hall2_wink]).
As for a possible scenario as to how the Liz we came to know could simply leave her baby on the doorstep of a foundling home, well, who's to say Liz did? People have posted some plausible theories that might have made that action possible - but there are some tried and true soap alternatives that haven't been mentioned - and we can't forget that back when Art Wallace probably conceived the explanation for how Liz was Vicki's mother, he was plotting DS as a soap (part of me is still somewhat disappointed that, in true soap tradition, Vicki was never put on trial for Laura's murder, as Wallace had conceived in the Shadows on the Wall bible - but I digress...). In the soap universe, the tried and true backstory is most often that the mother was told her baby had died. The baby was then spirited away by 1) the mother's father who most often didn't want a scandal, 2) the baby's father who didn't want a scandal and/or didn't want a child, and/or 3) an unscrupulous doctor who was working with either of those two or even both. Soaps have relied on various versions of those scenarios for numerous backstories. And it's only after the child shows up on his/her own and announces his/herself or some sort of documentation surfaces after years of being hidden (sometimes even in secret rooms [hall2_grin]) that the mother is even made aware of what really happened. That way the mother is never seen in a bad light by the audience but as a victim - and the blame is squarely placed on someone else's shoulders. It's quite possible that Wallace may have come up with his own variation. I suppose we'll never know because one would assume that if he had written it all down as he did Shadows on the Wall, it would have surfaced by now - but who knows? And it's also possible that after Wallace left and DS shifted its focus more toward the supernatural, TPTB didn't really like what Wallace had conceived and/or they didn't think it would fit in with the direction of the show any longer, but they couldn't come up with a satisfactory alternative themselves, so the storyline was simply left in limbo and the mystery of Vicki's parentage was never solved on screen. Though in an odd way that may have been a good thing because the mystery of Vicki's past just might be the single most speculated about dangling thread from the original show and something many fans will probably never tire of speculating about. [hall2_smiley]
-
Vickie may never have been put up for adoption because they thought that her mother may have returned when she was able to care for her and then they were getting paid to keep her from the mysterious benefactor. The fact that nothing was known of Vickie's parents would have been a deterent to her adoption in those times.