DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '08 II => Topic started by: JS on September 08, 2008, 06:13:24 PM
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I am just curious. Last night I watched episode # 70 were the ghost of Josette and the Old House were introduced. I began to wonder what was on the mind of the writers during this period. Were they already thinking of Barnabas at this time?
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I don't think so. From what I've read, the writers were gradually introducing supernatural elements and eventually crossed the line from what could be seen as hallucination to something that clearly had some kind of reality. Then they brought in a vampire, and tried to weave his past into what had been already established (and rather sloppily, imho).
Does anyone else have a more detailed answer?
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I believe, as Zahir said, the writers were already toying with the idea of introducing supernatural elements to the show, thus the Josette sighting. However, it really took hold with the Phoenix storyline, which came shortly after. When that went over well, it was decided to bring in a vampire. Again, to agree with Zahir, it became a rather sloppy, incongruous mess when it became clear that Barnabas Collins was too popular to kill off as had been originally planned. So, there we went, off to 1795, which is why, despite what Barnabas had said earlier about Josette Collins and why she took a flying leap off Widow's Hill, the whole story changed dramatically. Still, as a kid, I happily went along with everything as it unfolded, and still today, here we are -- rabid fans. [ghost_cool]
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i always think this is one of those funny "chicken or egg" situations.
but josette collins(or at least her ghost)was a firmly established character long before anyone had ever heard of barnabas collins.
what's ironic too is that considering how acrimonious their relationship became in 1795 that josette actually helped vicki out of several scrapes and even saved her life once or twice.she sort of looked out for her.
perhaps she was posthumously trying to correct the wrongs vicki had been done in the past.
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The writers have stated in the DVD interviews that originally Laura was coming from Phoenix to fight for custody of David and they thought it was too run of the mill so she became a Phoenix
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What I found kind of strange is in Episode 215 or 216 when Barnabas was inside the old house for the first time in 175 years. He stood there staring at the portrait of Josette and saying if you are in this house, please leave. I thought he would have been thrilled about it when David told him about Josette's ghost.
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I never knew that Victoria thought Josette looked like her. I wonder what the writers were thinking then. I always have said my favorite update for the '91 series was Victoria being Josette's reincarnation. I don't really know where they were headed with that but of course they forgot about it.
I think Malcom Marmorstein said that THE PHOENIX paved the way for THE VAMPIRE. So thank you Laura. I am in the beginning stages of this storyline and it almost feels like I am betraying the latter DS days (by saying this) but this storyline is TIGHT, wonderfully written and beautifully weaved into the regular soapy elements.
To wrap my head around the sloppy writing with Barney I pretend he was sort of CRAZY when he first came out of the coffin and couldn't remember events correctly!! It helps!! [ghost_wink]
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A number of fans have said that they think the original Laura Collins 1966/67 story was DS' finest hour, bar none. At this point in the scheme of things, I prefer to think of each storyline having its own special merits (and faults), but there's no doubt that the Laura story represented brilliant storytelling for the series, fascinating characterizations (both Laura herself and the established cast), and a payoff that, for once in DS history, gave everything expected from the buildup and that extra bit more.
Vicki's special connection to Josette does become very important during this storyline. One of the problems with the Barnabas storyline is that they do not bother to explain what happened to Josette's spirit. Barnabas has one line of dialogue in one of his very first episodes where he sort of banishes the ghost of Josette, which may be why we don't see her during subsequent events--when, to say the least, judging from how she behaves in the Matthew and Laura stories, you'd expect to see her taking a strong role in things.
G.
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And after 1795 she's reduced to [spoiler]letting others know Barnabas is "buried alive" somewhere on the estate..... instead of protecting others from him.[/spoiler]
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My take on it was that Barnabas was indeed virtually insane when he was released--not least because he blamed himself for so much, and was so happy to be released yet totally confused by the modern world.
And he would have profoundly mixed feelings about hearing that Josette's ghost was in the Old House.
Yet I also have to say his words--while not in any sense banishing her, imho--did betray some serious confusion on his part:
"I was a Collins. Why didn't you protect me when I was turned into something even my own father loathed?"
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As a handy, available explanation for inconsistencies, how about:
Barnabas: "History is always being rewritten."
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The payoff for the Barnabas story was to be his staking by Burke & Dr. Woodard and we all know that never could have happened once Barnabas became popular.
The story seemed to get muddled shortly after Willie is sent away, as the expected ending never happened and for the next two months it was just drifting along till the writers could come up with something.
1795 was tightly written and brought everything full circle.
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It would be interesting, if somehow we could see through a parallel time room, how DS would have progressed story-wise if the Barnabas plot had followed its original course, with him getting staked and leaving the show forever. What would they do afterwards? Would there have been a mad scientist creating a Frankensteinian monster? A werewolf? A Quentinesque haunting? What would've happened next? Would Vicki and Burke have finally gotten married, or would they have just strung that along year after year like Anne Marie and Donald Hollinger?
Gerard
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It would be interesting, if somehow we could see through a parallel time room, how DS would have progressed story-wise if the Barnabas plot had followed its original course, with him getting staked and leaving the show forever. What would they do afterwards? Would there have been a mad scientist creating a Frankensteinian monster? A werewolf?
I don't think it would have been interesting, myself. If things went the same way as with the Barnabas-staking, I think various monsters would have come along, they'd be evil and vanquished, and so on. However, I don't think that spree of typical television would have happened as the staking didn't happen, because of the writers... and because Dan Curtis left the country occasionally.
The payoff for the Barnabas story was to be his staking by Burke & Dr. Woodard and we all know that never could have happened once Barnabas became popular.
As you said that, I got a flash of what I would have wanted to see... Barnabas learns of their plans (how could he not?), and decides to have a fun night out by getting to Burke first, in bed I suppose, putting him in a coffin, waking him up, and then driving a wooden stake through Burke's heart! You know we'd get one of those rare moments I like where Barnabas is actually seen to be enjoying himself, because that only happens when he revenges or retaliates, the more ironically the better!
The thing is, I want all that because I'm (historically*) for good-Barnabas-lurking-within-bad-Barnabas, so I want him to win and for his enemies to perish... yet in this alternate storyline "he" doesn't exist, especially if he does something that bloodthirsty. Okay, GBLWBB did bloodthirsty things (no pun intended strangely enough, that one fell right into my lap), but once you make a bloodthirsty act into such an overwhelming display of horrific, ironic theater, the audience can't really be on your side anymore. So that kills GBLWBB as an on-air concept, even if GBLWBB would actually do stuff like that, which he would, and I want to see it.
Let's film it. I'm starting pre-production work in my living room this afternoon. Have your agents call me.
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*-- These days, 1968/9 is undercutting my empathy and identification with Barnabas as a protagonist a little bit more with each day of viewing. It's going to take a long, long time to dig myself out of this trough and like Barnabas again. His goodiness seems forced.
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i'll further something that gothick said in that the 1966 laura collins storyline was certainly one of the show's very best written periods.
it's very tight.it's very concise.it has a beginning,a middle and an end.it doesn't lose focus,go off on tangents,and fall prey to the unresolved or greatly changed plots that the program suffers in later years.it's conclusion lives up to the buildup it gets and it's deliciously wicked central character doesn't falter or change course because she had become popular.laura was certainly no "guilt ridden" pheonix.
it's brilliant storytelling and i love it.
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I love 1795 too, but I do personally think that the story drags a lot in many of the Vicki Winters trial episodes. The Laura story doesn't slacken or go off on a tangent (apart from one speed bump during that week where it seems as if they're constantly opening Laura's tomb).
Perhaps the fact that Diana was pregnant and would not be available beyond a certain date, plus DC was preoccupied with work on Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, kept DC from scuppering the smooth tight flow of this story with his usual sort of "suggestions."
G.
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I noticed how BIG she looked on her first visit with David. She had a flowery big loose dress on. They must have noticed too because the next day (the same day on DS) she is in a BLACK dress. We all know what black does for us who have some XTRA weight on us. [ghost_wink] 700th post for me!! :) YAY! I get excited too easy don't I? I am eyeing that GOD position!!
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Just think how different Dark Shadows would have been if Jonathan Frid had been pregnant when he was hired to play Barnabas!
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ROFLMAO! Lydia I aspire to your GODLY status!! [ghost_cheesy]
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In the begining Josette is often refered to as an ancestor, I think David even calls her Great-Grandmother Josette, but I could be imagining that. From the pre-Barnabas episodes it's obviously intended that Josette had a son before she died and that the Collins family were implied to be her direct descendents. So when Vicki thinks she looks like Josette, it's another clue that she is a long-lost Collins. Since the original intention was that Liz was Vicki's mother, that's where the Vicki-Josette resemblance was going at the time.
But with 1795 we see that Josette died childless so that wasn't the case. With that retcon I dismiss it as Vicki's wishful thinking, her desperate need to discover her past connected with her fascination of Josette. If Vicki were more objective she'd wonder why Maggie looked like Josette. As she clearly did, obviously.
I also thought that Josette as a ghost was trying to make up for her past mistreatment of Vicki except ...that hadn't happened yet. Barnabas didn't remember Vicki being in 1795 until after she went back. Time travel on DS can be awful confusing. No reason why Josette couldn' thave just taken a liking to Vicki without a link to the past.
I did like how Josette and Sarah were opposed to Barnabas. I wish Josette's ghost had taken a stronger role in the present, but I guess that would have undercut Barnabas's angsty longing for her if she making more regular appearances.
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I was going to say that it's implied that there is backstory between Josette and Laura, but this is one of the many threads that never got explored.
The version of Laura's history given in 1897 would imply definitively that Laura and Josette never met, though mysteriously, Angelique knows exactly who Laura is--"one of the legendary Collins beauties."
I kept waiting and waiting for someone to meet Quentin, eye him up and down, and proclaim: "Ah, Quentin! one of the legendary Collins beauties!" Yet, mysteriously, it never happened...
*wink*
Gothique
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QUENTIN can be my "legendary Collins beauty" Oh the things I would do to that [tasty]....Okay I need to shut up. [faint2]
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You may have to take a number, dear--there's a LENGTHY list of people here who would just love to "do" the eligible, rascally Mr. Collins ... !
I think some may have already rewritten that song because they want to do a lot more than just "dance" with the young man.
cheers! G.
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I would have liked to have seen a bit more of Josette's ghost....too bad she couldn't have protected Vicki from the clutches of Adam and Nicholas or even [spoiler] from Jeb Hawkes who we're supposed to believe pushed Vicki off of Widows' Hill later on. [/spoiler]
If nothing else, Josette's ghost could have at least appeared to Vicki and apologize for being out to get her in 1795.
I like the theory that Josette's ghost in the first year was trying to make up for misjudging Vicki in the past, but as quentincollins pointed out, that hadn't happened yet.
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My personal fave eps, besides the ones with Pappa Karlen, are the early black and whites. I often say that I grew up in a black and white world - television and my relationship to the world revolved around Mister Ed, Dennis the Menice, and Ed Sullivan - all viewed in black and white. I love the Bill Malloy story (and am sorry that character didn't continue on), the Laura story, and the Jason/Liz thing. My earliest recollection of DS is when I was eight or nine. coming home to watch the show after school and my mother ironing in her bra because it was too hot out. But anyway, I think the Laura storyline is good, the Jason/Liz thing is good, Willie and Barn are good. So how did these storylines include Josette? I personally think that the writers had an idea in mind, but weren't sure where to go with it. But, but, but, but, but...I think they found their niche when Barnabas came along. DS reminds me of the Epstein Brothers at Warners. They had no clue where Casablanca was going to go, they just went along with the flow. And I think that's where the natural writing and acting talent does its best. My humble viewpoint.
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MagnusTrask alluded to the Burke, Barnabas thing. That reminds me of my favorite Burke Barnabas episode where Burke and Barnabas have that very cold encounter at the Blue Whale. I personally think that Barnabas scored much better than Burke in that encounter. I remember pulling for Barnabas because Burke seemed to have it in for Barnabas, which turned me against Burke.[ghost_smiley]
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In the begining Josette is often refered to as an ancestor, I think David even calls her Great-Grandmother Josette, but I could be imagining that. ...
Really enjoyed this, quentincollins, especially the part about Vicki's lack of objectivity in viewing her own ancestry. And it absolutely wasn't your imagination that David called Josette his great great grandmother back when we were still being told that Jeremiah built Collinwood and the family was descended from him.
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You may have to take a number, dear--there's a LENGTHY list of people here who would just love to "do" the eligible, rascally Mr. Collins ... !
You guys can go ahead and fight over Quentin. I'll be quite happy to take Chris and/or Todd Jennings...
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Absolutely! [ghost_tongue2]
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I'll be quite happy to take Chris and/or Todd [sic] Jennings...
That would be an "and" for me... [ghost_tongue2] [ghost_wink]
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Heck I would take them both preferrably at the same time. [ghost_shocked] [ghost_tongue2]
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QUENTIN can be my "legendary Collins beauty" Oh the things I would do to that [tasty]....Okay I need to shut up. [faint2]
LOL I'm waiting for someone to use that saying and a pic of Q as an avatar! [BOO]
Jeannie
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Perhaps I should, but I dont know how to do all that stuff! :( Did that make you laugh? It is nice to know you can make people smile! [8_1_209]
I was very serious though!!
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I actually think the 1795 arc was pretty tightly written (the awfulness that was Peter Bradford aside). It solved a number of problems. It was extremely well acted. It gave the actors a chance to do something different. It is fascinating to me to see how refreshed and energized most of them were. Also--and I think this is key--there seemed to be a game plan on the part of the writers. They had some kind of an outline they were following, compleat with exit strategy. The other arcs lack that. 1897 in particular gets kind of weedy around half way through. There was so much going on and it just got longer and longer. I have always had a sense that the writers were reacting--either to fan response or the directives of Curtis. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's like they weren't as in control as they were in 1795.
As for Josette and the early history of the family, you could go nuts trying to make that all work with what we learn later.
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1795 sort of peters out for me. That's unavoidable when [spoiler]most of the characters have died off, but at least in 1897, the deaths were clustered together right at the very end. Without an extension of 1897 beyond whatever they'd planned we wouldn't have had Petofi, right?
Besides, 1795 looks as if it's going to show the horrible story of Barnabas becoming this creature, but then good Barnabas continues through vampirehood all the way up until the "end". I expected some traumatic showdown where he's entombed by force. His agreeing to being destroyed seems far more in keeping with what the audience may have wanted of him by then (he had become a popular and sympathetic character) than with what Barnabas was actually supposed to be turning into at that point.
This makes it all the more disconcerting when we return to 1967/8 and Barnabas proceeds to hover between nice and nasty for what seems like forever, sometimes being "good" too soon and without adequate explanation, sometimes backsliding into nastiness long after the cure and long after becoming this protector of the family.
Anyway, I think 1795 may have suffered from an improvised or changed ending too, and I probably prefer the end to 1897, even with problems.[/spoiler]
[8_1_203]
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1795 sort of peters out for me.
[lghb] I'm guessing the pun was unintentional. (Yes, I'm easily entertained.)
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I honestly think that the writers did a good job in fleshing out Barnabas' story in 1795, regardless of the audiences' feelilngs toward him.
Barnabas HATED being what he was, this was true in present day as well in the past. I remember when he told Dr. Woodard he loathed the person who was doing all the awful things in town. I find it completely believable that he would have preferred to be destroyed rather than go on forever as a blood-sucking creature of the night. Unfortunately [spoiler] Joshua just couldn't bring himself to shoot his son (although I understand why he couldn't do it) and instead had him chained up in the coffin. [/spoiler]
Don't forget that Barnabas was stuck in there for almost two centuries. He didn't expect his father to do what he did to him and I think he was very bitter about that after he was released, I think it goes a long way to explaining, if not condoning, his nastiness once he was free.
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Perhaps I should, but I dont know how to do all that stuff! :(
You're confusing me-- I DON'T UNDERSTAND! [angel4] Seriously, it looks to me like you already have an avatar pic and a saying up, why couldn't you change it to a Q screen shot with your caption?
And as anyone who has seen my non-graphically fancy websites can attest, I'm the last one to laugh at anyone else's inability to do the whiz bang snazzy stuff.
Jeannie
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I thought you meant to have it printed on the actual avatar and then I thought "How would that fit" but I just went with it and responded that way. Yes I could easily change my avatar and write those words under the picture! :) Sorry to confuse!