DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '08 II => Topic started by: retzev on June 30, 2008, 09:41:36 PM
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We're all curious/worried about how Burton will handle DARK SHADOWS. Is it going to be a respectful homage, a send-up, a complete re-imagining? So here are five (more could probably have been included, but I think these are of particular interest) five Burton films that could be considered remakes or re-imaginings:
01) BATMAN
02) MARS ATTACKS
03) SLEEPY HOLLOW
04) PLANET OF THE APES
05) CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY
How do you feel about each of them as adaptations of shows/movies/stories that you already know and love?
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Having seen a few Plan 9-esque movies, I think Mars Attacks! was a good send-up of them.
Sleepy Hollow was a great adaptation of the tale. I find it odd how nearly everyone in that New York town sounded so British, though. :P
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was pretty good, but it's not Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory by any means.
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01) Batman - Before the Nolan films, Burton's first Batman was the best. And I think it still holds up today. I'm not crazy about Batman Returns, but that's all I remember about it (haven't watched it in years).
02) Mars Attacks - Sad to say, I haven't actually seen this.
03) Sleepy Hollow - One of my very favorite Burton films, and my favorite of the Burton/Depp team ups. I adore this movie to pieces and it's so atmospheric...... This one is a great argument for Burton doing DS - especially a 1795 DS film. I own it on dvd.
04) Planet of the Apes - Gets a bad rap. The only thing I didn't like about it was the ending. I might get rotten tomatoes thrown at me, but I liked it more than the original, which I've never been a fan of.
05) Charlie & the Chocolate Factory - Didn't like the original, love this one. It's utterly bizarre and twisted, and if I'm not mistaken, is more true to the book. I own it on dvd.
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Sleepy Hollow was a great adaptation of the tale. I find it odd how nearly everyone in that New York town sounded so British, though. :P
Especially since they were Dutch, I guess.... I came from Ichabod Crane land originally.
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Fun poll!!
01) BATMAN I haven't seen it in a long time, but I remember loving it, and loving how it was so much darker than the campy TV series (which I also loved, but in a different way). I thought Jack Nicholson was brilliant. I don't recall if I've seen Batman Returns or not-- I'm not a Burton expert but have some kind of recollection that he wasn't much involved in that one... I could be wrong, though.
02) MARS ATTACKS I've only seen this once, but I loved it- great fun!
03) SLEEPY HOLLOW Love it!! I don't consider it my favorite Depp/Burton collaboration, but only because Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood and Sweeney Todd were even MORE awesome! Coincidentally, I was just skimming through my Sleepy Hollow DVD last night. Gotta watch this all the way through again soon!
04) PLANET OF THE APES I've never seen this one, and from the way it's been described, I don't think I'd care for it. Maybe I should give it a chance, though.
05) CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY Loved it. Now, I was probably the exact wrong age for the original Willy Wonka- just entering my pre-teens and at that age I didn't really want to be seeing "kiddy" movies. Years later, realizing that our own Denise Nickerson was in it, I made a point that I would watch it someday, and I finally got the chance a few years ago (before the Depp/Burton movie came out)... and I hated it. Maybe I had to be there at the time it came out. When I heard Johnny and Tim were remaking it, it wasn't the happiest news I wanted to hear. But I ended up loving it. I do think it was truer to the book, except that the book didn't have the backstory with Willy's dentist father. Johnny was deliciously twisted, and I loved Elfman's songs. And the kids were all great.
As for what Tim and Johnny would do with DS, without having any real knowledge of how they'd approach it, I very seriously doubt it'd be a send-up. I just don't think they'd want to make it campy or light, but rather focus on the dark, menacing vibe. Remake or reimagining- I don't know which, or maybe it'll have elements of both. I guess we'll have to wait and see!
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Here is my take.
1. Batman--It was alright, but I always believe Micheal Keaton was not the right actor for the role.
2. Mars Attacks--I have not seen it.
3. Sleepy Hollow--I liked it.
4. Planet of The Apes--I agree with Barnabas's Bride. I did'nt like the ending either.
5. Charlie and The Chocolate Factory--I have not seen it and don't want to see it. I perfer the Gene
Wilder original.
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01) BATMAN - liked this quite a bit. It was rather weird, relatively exciting, and had good action. The characters were quite good, which was the most important thing to me. Head and shoulders above any of the other Batman movies.
02) MARS ATTACKS - Meh, it was fair. Humorous the first time I saw it, not something I'd really make a point of watching again.
03) SLEEPY HOLLOW - couldn't get over the fact that Edward Scissorhands was supposed to be some sort of investigator. Never made it past the 15 minute mark. Kind of overblown from what little I saw.
04) PLANET OF THE APES - this was just a complete joke. From the attempts at political correctness that were downright comical, to the apes bouncing around like a rubber balls, to the long boring part before the climax. Actually rates pretty high on the so bad it's good scale.
05) CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY - haven't seen it.
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1) BATMAN--I like the first film in the original franchise of films, but I liked Batman Returns better. The Peguin wasn't too good, but I love some Michelle Pfieffer as Catwoman, so I watch the film just for her. Both are great.
2) MARS ATTACKS-- When this originally came out, I didn't get the humor because I was younger. I haven't seen it in years, but I remember liking it when I watched it when I could actually get the humor.
3) SLEEPY HOLLOW--I completely love this movie. Depp's Ichabod Crane is just awesomely funny and quirky, and I think this definitely the best adaptation I've seen of the book. The atmosphere is great, the music is spectacular, and the visuals are stunning.
4) PLANET OF THE APES-- I don't remember this probably because I saw it once and hated it, since I'm a huge fan of the original. But one clunker of five choices really isn't anything to be upset about.
5) CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY-- It was more true to the book, and I abhored it when I first saw it because I, like many, compared it to the original which you cannot do. I love the original version a ton. When I took the Burton/Depp version on its own merits, I realized that its just as good (not better) as the original. I especially enjoy Depp's performance, and his similar dismissal of the children's stupid/idiotic questions as Wilder in the original.
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BATMAN A-
BATMAN RETURNS B-
MARS ATTACKS C-
The movie has its momets but is a bit of a mess
SLEEPY HOLLOW -B
I enjoyed
PLANET OF THE APES
Changing the ending screw up the entire point of the movie. The Ape Earth was Just stupit
CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY B-
The added backstory Wonka and his Dentist father who would no let him eat chocolate is as bad as if not worse then any of the changes Mel Stwert made in the 1971 film. Burton came off as kind of a hypocrite bitchig about the librities the 1971 film took with the book meawile making his on changes to the story. I rather have Wanka be a badass as Wilder played him then then the Tourcherd Soul who vas the victom of of overberring father as Depp played him. Sill an enjoable film but i enjoy the 1971 film more.
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When a lot of us saw the original POTA not knowing the ending ahead of time, we got a hell of a lot out of the film before the surprise ending. That ending does make it mean five times more, though.
If Burton's ending was that it was... a different place, that's how the original book had it.
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> 01) BATMAN - I'm a big fan of both Burton Batman films. The first one is wonderful, and is my favorite Batman movie (and I'm including the great Christian Bale/Christopher Nolan flick). Keaton is dark and brooding and Nicholson is gloriously insane in the '89 film. Batman Returns was actually MORE Burton-esque. WB gave him more freedom to do things his way in the second movie. A lot of hardcore Batman fans hated the bizarre, dark tone of the film, but I really liked it. DeVito's Penguin was a freakish homage to Lon Chaney's London After Midnight character with a Dickensian quality to him, and Michelle Pfieffer was simply fantastic as the sleek and deadly Catowman. I still prefer the first Burton Batman to the second though.
02) MARS ATTACKS - This movie was a riot. The whole thing is a dark joke - the humans in the movie are generally repulsive (except for the couple of quirky characters) and we wind up rooting for the Martians in several scenes. A fun movie, but not one of my favorite Burton romps.
03) SLEEPY HOLLOW - This might be my favorite Tim Burton movie, with the possible exception of The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's eerie, gothic, atmospheric and a whole lot of fun to watch. The Bava and Hammer influences are clearly evident in this film - with Burton's quirky sensibilities thrown into the mix. This film showed me that Burton COULD do a DS movie justice.
04) PLANET OF THE APES - Blarrrgghh! Kaff! Kaff! Where's Roddy McDowall when you need him? Sorry, I didn't like Burton's poo-flingin' remake at at all.
05) CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY - Eh, it had its moments. I love the part where the little mechanical orchestra catches on fire while singing that infernal "WILLY WONKA! WILLY WONKA!" song. Depp's Michael Jackson-style Wonka was creepy though. As much as I llike Johnny Depp as an actor (and I'm not just saying that because he's hawt), I prefer the original film. Gene Wilder was so perfect and deadpan, plus Amy Jennings turns into a blue and round. There are some great visuals and Uncle Christopher Lee in the Burton flick hough.
If Burton manages to keep his quirky sense of humor out of it, he COULD pull of a really good, creepy Dark Shadows movie. He really needs to get the TONE right. Guillermo del Toro would probably be the better choice for director. He's the one I was pulling for awhile back. I think he could capture the right feel. BUT Burton and Depp are both DS fans so that might help since they are obviously fond of the source material.
~Penny~
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Dang, now I need to add the Burton Batman films to my Queue. I believe I've seen all of his films except the two Batman movies and Planet of the Apes.
I also need to see more of Guiellermo del Toro's films, as I've only seen Pan's Labyrinth (which I think was probably one of the best movies I've ever seen; not one I care to see again, though, as it was pretty depressing).
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I also need to see more of Guiellermo del Toro's films, as I've only seen Pan's Labyrinth (which I think was probably one of the best movies I've ever seen; not one I care to see again, though, as it was pretty depressing).
Goober, Devil's Backbone is well worth checking out, and I hear The Orphanage is quite good too.
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Re. del Toro, you can see Hellboy 2, which is coming out tomorrow! The Orphanage is a great movie, but del Toro did not direct that one- only produced it. I feel it still has much of his style written all over it. Part of me thinks that he might be a better choice than Burton to direct DS, but he's also going to become involved with The Hobbit soon, so maybe he wouldn't have time. I've warmed up to the idea of Burton directing, though.
Cathy
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I wonder if anyone from the Depp/Burton team ever comes over to this forum to see what the fans think about re the new movie.
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I wonder if anyone from the Depp/Burton team ever comes over to this forum to see what the fans think about re the new movie.
(Just in case.... ) Hi Johnny!!! [wavey] (Actually, it WOULD be a great way to research, wouldn't it?!)
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If Depp, Burton, and August have any respect for the property at all, they'll check out the fansites and take into account what the fans want. When producers don't do that is when many movies based on books or comics and basically every movie based on a video game turn out the sour way they do.
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My own view is that the filmmakers should respect the fans, but not in any sense simply obey or kowtow to them. The whole point of any artistic enterprise is for artists to bring their own personal meaning and decisions out. I recall that in the 1950s there was a shot-by-shot remake of the 1930s classic The Prisoner of Zenda. It, like the slavishly remade script of Psycho a few years ago, tanked. Quite rightly, too.
Look at LOTR. Far more popular than DS (c'mon, you know this is true) and when finally made into a lavish trilogy of motion pictures, some fans simply could not be satisfied while others adored the films. And everything in between!
While it might be nice--and possibly quite useful--for Depp's colleagues to visit places like this, my own hope is they don't place too much weight on our words. The movie is theirs, to make as they see fit. I will judge it as itself first and foremost. Based on past experience with Tim Burton adaptations, I suspect I'll enjoy the result but it'll be a slightly mixed bag.
To my reviews...
Batman - I thought this in general an excellent superhero film, but to be honest it also felt a little rushed. The "pacing" in Burton films often feels a bit "off" to me (which goes to show the guy has a different drummer in his head I guess).
Mars Attacks! - I loved it! Mind you, methinks some of the humor was a bit esoteric, even odd. So what else is new?
Sleepy Hollow - Effing brilliant! And btw, one reason for all the British accents was Burton's clear intention to make it as a tribute/homage to all those wonderful Hammer Horror films of the 1950s, 60s and 70s. Frankly, I believe this film gives us the best indication (in some ways) of what a Burton-directed DS might be like.
Planet of the Apes - Okay. Lots of cool individual bits (especially design and characterization) but something about the plot didn't hold together for some reason. And I can't decide whether an ending you need a panel discussion to figure out is a good thing or not.
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - Unlike many, I thought this a very good film. It was a genuine re-imagining that borrowed extensively from the source material (rather than the first movie) as well as giving a unique spin on its own, by giving the character of Willie Wonka a genuine arc. The ending, with Willie meeing his father again, to me resonated fully as much as that glorious moment when Gene Wilder said "So shines a good deed in a weary world."
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I'm a mixed bag of Tim Burton....some stuff of his I like better than others. However, I can't deny the guy is a gifted filmmaker.
Batman-I love Burton's take on it when it first came out and still do, even with the newer and equally as good Chris Nolan films that have come out. It was more darker and more exciting than the 60's show. I never liked the Adam West series despite its camp value. The movie was a darker and more exciting vision of what Batman should be and Jack Nicholson I thought made a great Joker (I won't say he was better or worse than Heath Ledger, who I also like as the Joker but I definitely prefer both of them over Cesar Romero).
Mars Attack-didn't like it. It seemed too much camp for me. I suppose that was the point, but it just seemed way too silly and ridiculous the more the movie went on. I really wanted to like it, considering the cast, but I just couldn't get into it.
Planet of the Apes-I haven't seen the original, so maybe I don't know what I'm missing, but I actually enjoyed this version. I realize I am most likely the only one who does.
Sleepy Hollow-Also love it. Like Batman, a much darker and spookier version of the classic story. Johnny Depp of course was excellent in it.
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory-didn't like it. Depp's Willy Wonka reminded me too much of Michael Jackson. Being such a big fan of the 1971 original I honestly tried to give this version a chance, but there are some stories that I feel don't need a darker side to it and I feel this was one of them.
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My own view is that the filmmakers should respect the fans, but not in any sense simply obey or kowtow to them. The whole point of any artistic enterprise is for artists to bring their own personal meaning and decisions out. ... The movie is theirs, to make as they see fit.
I have a very similar view, Zahir.
I will judge it as itself first and foremost.
And that's the best way to approach it - not to compare it to other versions of DS, but does it stand on its own and is it true to the essence of DS? That's all we can really ask for and expect...
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And that's the best way to approach it - not to compare it to other versions of DS, but does it stand on its own and is it true to the essence of DS? That's all we can really ask for and expect...
YOU hit the nail on the head MB. Although I love my DS friends and respect their views and opinions I cannot understand someone vowing not to watch anything at least once. When I was a naive 14 year old back in 1991 I simply couldn't understand people panning the 1991 DS and viewing only a few minutes. I didn't like the old show at first I had to watch and give it a chance and BOY am I glad I gave the ORIGINAL a chance. The original gave me a chance to see Grayson Hall in action and I will FOREVER be grateful!!
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Because Tim Burton is directing the movie, I'm sure that, like all Burton films I've seen, I'll really parts of it and strongly dislike others. Well, no, actually I think the two "Ed" movies were basically masterpieces, but I digress. Anyway, I'll definitely see the movie, and won't complain about most aspects of it until I've done so. Of course, if he does something completely insane like move the story to ancient Mesopotamia, I'll probably skip it.