DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '08 II => Topic started by: Taeylor Collins on June 29, 2008, 03:30:16 AM
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I am I guess what you call a second generation DSer. :) I came to love Dark Shadows thanks to the 1991 revival which I thought was AMAZING. What it could have done if had gotten a full season!! :( Anyhoo. I know that some blame the war, however, more or less I have heard that most original fans didn't take to it. I know the original actors were outspoken which I thought was VERY tacky. Imagine what a good run of a whole new show could have done for fandom. It wasn't the 60's show. Plus it would have been great to have them make appearances. I can tell you unless this script just completely STINKS (which I doubt with Tim and Johnny) I will be behind it. I WANT a TRILOGY!! Will you guys get behind it?
I also TOOK right to the original show and loved it equally as much as the revival. Maybe I can't understand cause I wasn't here the first time around!
Not listen I am not downing people. I am just basing my thoughts of what I have read since I started in fandom in 1991!
Thanks
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I wasn't exactly enthralled with the '91 revival, being an orginal, first-generation viewer of the first series. My problems with it (other than those annoying palm trees in the background) was that it lacked the subtelty of the original. In the original, the word "vampire," for example, wasn't first uttered until about a half-year into the storyline about Barnabas (and that wasn't until well into the 1795/96 flashback). In the '91 version, with everyone knowing there were vampires on the lose, how could they not have known that it wasn't the Ben Cross Barnabas? It was so obvious. Hopefully, this film version will take things a bit more logically.
Gerard
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Well Vampires are pretty much a part of everyone's lexicon in this day and time. << gets back on topic.
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those annoying palm trees in the background
Don't make me have to explain again how the reality in Collinsport is that palm trees are perfectly in keeping with all the other extremely odd flora of the region. [b003] Or how not only palm trees, but coconut tress, banana trees, and, yes, even cactus could all be seen in Collinsport all year long. [ghost_grin] Because I will do it again, you know. Trust me - I will. [ghost_wink]
As for the Depp/DS film, or any future DS projects for that matter, the best perspective I've ever seen stated as a general principle was said in connection with the reimagined Night Stalker series, and that was that "all too often we spend way too much time bemoaning the ways in which the new version deviates from what we know and love, and too little time considering whether the new material stands up in its own right. In other words, sometimes a remake isn't always a bad thing. They can honour the original and stand alone as solid entertainment at the same time."
Something we might all keep in mind. [ghost_smiley]
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MB, that perspective would have more credibility had the re-imagined NIGHT STALKER not sucked bilgewater.
Just sayin'. [ghost_tongue2]
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Well I guess for those of us who didn't think DS 1991 sucked then we can appreciate that statement. I truly think if DS had been given a full 22 hour season we would have had some of the original cast on. I also think the show honored the old one in a lot of ways.
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MB, that perspective would have more credibility had the re-imagined NIGHT STALKER not sucked bilgewater.
Funny you should mention that because, actually, what's perhaps most interesting is that what I quoted was stated as a preamble to an extremely negative review of the show. [ghost_wink] The reviewer didn't like the reimagined Night Stalker at all - but he also fully believed that, as a general principle, original fans of all varieties should use that approach whenever it comes to examining any sort of remakes of their favorites, and that's how he framed his criticism. And when it comes to, say, the '91 DS series, I know you agree that it stands up in its own right as solid entertainment - especially when it comes to a certain doe-eyed, dark-haired governess who was played by a certain doe-eyed, dark-haired beauty. [ghost_wink]
I also think the show honored the old one in a lot of ways.
I've mentioned on several occasions that I think that in some ways the '91 series honestly improved on the original (check out past discussions for details on how and in what aspects because it's definitely OT to go into it as part of this topic). And who's to say the Depp/DS film might not do the same? Only time will tell...
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MB -- I agree completely with the sentiment; just thought it was semi-amusing in context. [ghost_wink]
I tell you, all these years later, those people at the agency are still sitting on my application to be governed by said governess, and I haven't heard diddly. What's up with that?
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Bleh, this whole generations thing confuses me to death. First-generation would be people who saw the show in its original airing. Second-generation would be the revival, or would it be the 1980s reruns/VHS releases of the original? If that's the case, revival fans are third-generation, which means... guh! Okay. 1: Original, 2: Revival, 3: Film Revival. In chronological order:
Generation 1.0: Watched the original first at its first airing
Generation 1.5: Watched the original first, but in reruns or on the VHS release
Generation 2.0: Watched the revival first at its first airing
Generation 1.9: Watched the original first in reruns or on VHS/DVD after the revival's first airing
Generation 2.5: Watched the revival first, but in reruns or on the VHS/DVD release
Generation 3.0: Watched the upcoming film first
Anyway, that was a bit off-topic. As a version 1.9, I prefer the original to the revival, but I'll gladly see the movie. The movie, however, will just be a novelty. In my mind, that's not the real Dark Shadows. The real Dark Shadows, to me, will always be the original series, not the revival, and not any of the three films. I will compare it to the original, but hold it up as its own film, as well.
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it was semi-amusing in context. [ghost_wink]
Oh, definitely! [ghost_wink]
I tell you, all these years later, those people at the agency are still sitting on my application to be governed by said governess, and I haven't heard diddly. What's up with that?
Have you tried bribery? Sometimes several larger bills passed under the table can work wonders. [ghost_cheesy]
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While I didn't get to see the revival when it came out in 91, I had the opportunity to get the VHS set of the MPI episodes. I was all set to be as opened minded as I possibly could but, I could not get past episode 3 or 4.
Ben Cross just wasn't Barnabas for me and what they did to poor Dr. Woodard was criminal! I think I'm one of the few who did like Barbara Steele's portrayal of Dr. Hoffman. Could not stand the Willie character and felt they turned him into the village idiot. The oriiginal Willie was street smart which I feel was the best way to portray him.
The palm trees were a turn off for me.
I'm sure Calif has it's own character but it's definitely not New England with all of it's brooding, mysterious and historical atmosphere. Perhaps I've read too much Stephen King.
I saw the 2004 Pilot and it was different and I thought had a lot of potential. The girl who played Vicki was good. It was a little strange seeing a blonde Vicki.
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The palm trees were a turn off for me.
There! See, MB! Even Miss Winthrop didn't like those frickin' palm trees! Palm trees! AAAAAHHHHHH...........!!!!!!!!! [82b5] [Rant_Emote]
Gerard
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I have heard the 2004 had potential. I will never understand THE WB throwing 6 million down a drain and not trying to reshot and recast if some of the cast didn't work out.
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Even Miss Winthrop didn't like those frickin' palm trees! Palm trees! AAAAAHHHHHH...........!!!!!!!!! [82b5] [Rant_Emote]
But I suspect that might be because she has yet to realize just how perfectly in keeping with all the other extremely odd flora of the region palm tress really are. [ghost_wink] And to that end for those who may have missed it the first time around, check out: And as far as palm trees in Collinsport goes, once and for all let's get real -
Also, even though palms would seem to be perfectly suited to Collinsport, so far as I'm aware (thanks to the numerous times they've been mentioned) the palm trees in the '91 series are only glimpsed in one scene for a few seconds in the distance (Midnite posted screen captures in this post:). It's not like they showed up in every or even every few outdoor scenes - or even in every episode. Faulting an entire series for one brief (perceived) slip up seems a bit harsh, no? [ghost_smiley] And the probably more pertinent thing so far as the Depp/DS film goes is that any palm trees that made it into frame for the '04 pilot were digitally removed (no doubt simply because no one realized how truly appropriate they really were [ghost_wink]), so chances are that if the Depp/DS film were to be filmed in CA, and the same were to happen, they would more than likely be removed as well...
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I don't see what there isn't to "accept." There will never be anything just like the original - it's impossible. My hope is that since many original fans were able to accept established DS actors as other characters throughout the series, they can accept a new actor in a role created some years ago by another performer.
The movie has to work on its own merit because there are people who don't know anything about the soap "Dark Shadows" from the 1960s. Since the kernel of the series is the affair between Barnabas and Angelique, his love for Josette and Angelique's ongoing revenge, that's likely what will make up the new script.
I'm excited by the possibilities and welcome any new take on the classic series.
Nancy
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The original question assumes that people knocking a remake are just doing it without thinking, because they're just used to the original and won't accept anything different. That happens, but often the criticisms are valid and well thought out. We also have the problem of viewers being seduced by newer and better-financed remakes, because of how they look more than anything else, and the fact that so many people assume new is better. There are simplistic reactions on all sides.
I don't demand that a new DS be just like the original. If they make something separate and great in its own way, another vision of it, that's great. I just don't think that happens, and I don't want the new version to be in competition with the original. Successful remakes can lead people to leave the original version behind. I think that's happening with Doctor Who.
I don't want to find someday that DS Forums has become about someone's very different remake, which will have hijacked the fandom (if that happens) and left the original DS in limbo. "Dark Shadows" will end up referring to the new one. The old one might almost get defined out of existence.
all too often we spend way too much time bemoaning the ways in which the new version deviates from what we know and love, and too little time considering whether the new material stands up in its own right.
Very true. It's not always that, though.
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I don't want to find someday that DS Forums has become about someone's very different remake, which will have hijacked the fandom (if that happens) and left the original DS in limbo.
You don't have to worry about that. For as long as this forum remains in existence, it will always be a place to discuss any and all versions of DS. And I suspect that no matter which version may be the most popular at any given time, each version will always have plenty of fans devoted to it. [ghost_wink]
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Successful remakes can lead people to leave the original version behind...I don't want to find someday that DS Forums has become about someone's very different remake, which will have hijacked the fandom (if that happens) and left the original DS in limbo. "Dark Shadows" will end up referring to the new one. The old one might almost get defined out of existence.
Very well put, Magnus! I admit that I'm one of those knee-jerk "remakes are bad" people, and that's generally speaking, not merely where DS is concerned. It saddens me when a movie that I love is remade and the people around me either speak only of the newer film, ignorant of the original, or worse, mock the original's production values/story/acting/etc. When I mention The Mummy, I'm talking about Boris Karloff, not Brendan Fraser. To me, 13 Ghosts is a William Castle production, not a Dark Castle slasher. Yet, I often feel like I'm speaking a different language when I try to discuss them with other people because they've been supplanted in the public consciousness by newer special-effects laden flicks.
While I realize that at this point, the continuation of the DS Festivals probably depends on the progress and success of the Depp film, at the same time, I don't want the gatherings to become ComicCon-style conventions where teeny-boppers are running around in goth garb squealing over Johnny. So I am leery of the new movie and what it may mean for fandom.
ProfStokes
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Good lord! It's tempting to propose marriage to a young woman who is keen on Castle's 13 GHOSTS -- except that my wife would likely disapprove (as would Joanna Going, with whom I have a pending marriage proposal dating back to 1991; alas, she has yet to discover that I exist).
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The original question assumes that people knocking a remake are just doing it without thinking, because they're just used to the original and won't accept anything different. That happens, but often the criticisms are valid and well thought out. We also have the problem of viewers being seduced by newer and better-financed remakes, because of how they look more than anything else, and the fact that so many people assume new is better.
The fact that the Depp DS movie is new will probably inject some new blood (hey, I made a pun!) into the DS fandom and I welcome that possibility. I don't believe the Depp version of the classic will be that much different than the core story though the visuals and characters will be different to us.
I have a knee-jerk reaction to those who reject any movie, remake or otherwise, before seeing it. I've been on the production end of things when a production was protested against when the protesters hadn't even seen the play or read the book if it is a book that is being objected to for any reason. [ghost_tongue]
"Accept" or not, if the Depp DS project comes to fruition, it will undoubtedly alter fandom and, again, that's a good thing, IMO. Nothing like shaking up the coffin a little and see what/who crawls out. [bite]
I'm sure that in the case of this forum and others, there will be provisions made for fans who prefer one version over another to continue discussing the version they love. The publicity a Johnny Depp DS movie would bring to the franchise can't help but be good for it. The classic DS, which Depp would talk about in interviews as he has already done, will be referred to, the series is available for rental or purchase, and fans of the movie may find they like the series. Some won't of course. Still, the publicity and the hopeful popularity of the Depp film can do a lot of good for the current DS fandom in many ways. We know that DS does have appeal for those in their teens and twenties as we have that age group represented on this forum and other DS groups online. [ghost_wink]
If the new DS movie brings an infusion of goths into the fandom, it doesn't make much time for me to die my hair purple and black, spike it up with a little gel and get into my all black outfit. If I can remember where I put that damn bullwhip, I'll bring it to the fest following Depp's DS film release. I think I gave that whip to my last customer when he was leaving the dungeon. I've gotten mellow in my old age. [ghost_wacko]
Nancy
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Well put Nancy.
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I have a good reason for thinking that the Depp movie won't appeal to me: the likelihood that it will emphasize the horror aspects of Dark Shadows, which don't particularly interest me. I'm sitting here thinking of the various reasons that various Dark Shadows fans have for loving the show. Horror. Complicated interweaving plots. Seeing one actor in several roles. Interesting, varied sets, with interesting, varied props and costumes. Bloopers. Adoration of one particular actor - take your pick as to which. Adoration of one particular character - take your pick as to which. Nostalgia. And lots more reasons that aren't occurring to me at the moment. There's no way that you can get it all into one movie. It may be a great movie, but it's definitely not going to be the same.
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There's no reason why it can't focus on drama, romance, story, and character interaction just as much as horror. Is it going to be as developed as a tv series? No, but there are plenty of great movies out there that combine many of these elements and manage quite well.
The movie won't be the same, and to me, that's a great thing. I don't want a simple remake where the new actors mimmick the original actors, or where the dialogue and scenes are exactly the same as what we got in the original series and movies. There's no point in that when we should have a team capable of bringing something creatively different to the table.
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The new pushes out the old these days. Obviously no one on this site will ban fans of original DS, that wasn't my point. My experience has been with other fandoms makes me concerned that an influx of new fans of the new film(s) will overwhelm the discussion and redefine what DS is.
(Original) Doctor Who fandom was alive and well throughout years and years of books and CDs-- now that it's revived in a very different form on TV, "Doctor Who" means the new program to people. On what I think is the biggest DW board, the new series area is expanding and the "classic" series area is shrinking. If that's how interests shift, boards won't have any choice.
The special nature of DS fandom may discourage this. I see more interest in history and drama over production values here than in other fandoms. I'm still concerned.
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I understand the point you're making, Magnus. But I honestly doubt that no matter how successful the Depp/DS film may be that it will push aside discussion of the original series to any sort of the degree that concerns you. The '91 series certainly didn't do it. And people may say, well, the '91 series didn't attract that big of an audience, but that's not really true. The facts are that it brought a huge influx of new DS fans to fandom and it boosted attendance rates at DS Fests to new levels. Though what it also did was stimulate interest in the new fans in the original series. Are there DS fans out there who say they only like the '91 series and think the original is a joke? As shocking as some original fans might find it, yes. But even in the days when the '91 series was a huge topic of conversation in the various fanzines at the time (and the '91 stars were appearing at Fests), discussion of the original series (or stars) was never ignored or pushed aside. I don't really see it being much different with the new movie and online duiscussions. If history has taught us anything, it's that the original series will always play a significant role in fandom no matter how many newer versions of DS may come along.
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I CAME to ADORE the old show from watching the 1991 version :) I love them both. I am sure I would LOVE the 2004 Pilot, I hear it's good, and just needed a few things retooled. I wish it would leak [ghost_shocked]!! I hope to get to the fest in 2009 though. And yes the 1991 did really resurge fandom. Cannot wait for the movie. I hope it leads to a successful trilogy!!!
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Perhaps the 2004 Pilot will be "accidentally" leaked from Warner Bros. as viral marketing for the new movie?
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We should only be so lucky! [ghost_wink]
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Then again, perhaps someone involved in its production just doesn't want it to get out beyond the screenings it's had at conventions. Joss Whedon was very tight on the Buffy pilot; he said that he didn't care how bootlegged on the internet it was, he would never let it onto a DVD set ever (and having seen it, I can't fathom why; it wasn't that bad). Perhaps someone involved in the 2004 Pilot feels similarly?
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While a new DS will never replace the original, it will most assuredly bring more interest to the classic DS. As Nancy said, it will inject new blood into fandom. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see new original series DS material (comics, novels, toys) turn up because of the new DS, and that's definitely a good thing.
~Penny~
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I am looking forward to the new movie(s). I am one of the original fans.
Remakes are something that always cause me to expect the worst but DS is different. One of the unusual things about DS is the use of parallel time. In the world of DS different stories could take place at the sametime. So the new movie(s) could be very different and still be part of DS. I'm hoping for new collectables, new novels, maybe a real music box will be released and not just a toy one. As for new fans, DS could never get big enough for me. I'd be happy if it became the new Star Wars.
As for it's effect on the original, there have been many, many Frankenstein movies and everytime one comes out the fans compare it to the original Karloff film. So even if "mainstream" movie fans don't know about the original, the fans will and they won't forget it. Even before 13 Ghost (the remake) came out "mainstream" movie fans didn't know who William Castle was, before "The Mummy" (the remake) came out they didn't know that Karloff played the part, but in both cases the real fans did, and still do.
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Any fan that doesn't embrace this movie, even if it is with reservations, is off their rocker. It'll most definitely bring in new fans to the DS lore and legacy, and will undoubtedly increase the potential for future projects of a DS nature. I know that it will be hotly debated before and after its release (it already has been) and that some people will absolutely hate it. But that's a fandom for you: some love it, others hate it. Its never all in one category.
One thing I am fearful of, however, is audience pandering. Others have already spoken about this. I just don't want it to be suped up with drama, action, and special effects to please today's target audience. I have no doubt that at least one of those things will be heightened anyway, but hopefully its not something that will bring down the film. Let's face it, a slow-building, thematic film is not popular these days.
Oh, and the other thing I have nightmares about is having to eventually hear that "Johnny Depp is the first Barnabas Collins." Oh. The. Horror.
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From what I know about him, Tim Burton probably doesn't give anywhere close to a damn, or a rat's ass, or anything else one could give in such a situation, about a mainstream audience. He's either going to produce a faithful adaptation of the series or make it totally his own wacky thing. Personally, I hope for the first one.
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Personally I'm just not interested in revivals and sequels. I love the original show because of the specific characters and the actors who played them, the chemistry between those characters / actors, the atmosphere, the sets, the time in which it was made (which can't be duplicated today), etc. They can make some new show with characters of the same names, roughly similar plots etc, but it's completely different.
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I am with you Brandon and Goober!
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It'll be interesting to see how they work in the inevitable (given that all movies today seem to be made for audiences aged 13-17) toilet humor, given that the original series never even had so much as a hint of a washroom.
G.
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If your serious, give Johnny and Tim a little bit more credit. This is Johnny Depp. He didn't even get that famous until Pirates. I personally love EVERYTHING ELSE he has done more than Pirates. He is a character actor. Perfect for DS. I would say this movie will be more targeted towards 18-49 range. And also the original audience. JMO
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Depp was a leading superstar long before PIRATES not only because can he pull off any role he sets his mind too, but the man also makes good choices. I'm sure Depp will perform well in any capacity he chooses, he's not the one I'm worried about. Burton is the wild card. Johnny is a fan from way back, and it doesn't seem a stretch to imagine that Burton is too. If Burton understands DS aesthetic from personal experience, and Johnny's enthusiasm and good taste rub off on him, this could be a great film. Fans of Ed Wood and his moviess nearly unanimously agree that ED WOOD is a beautiful and heartfelt tribute that perfectly captures the strange spirit of Ed's life and work, and Wood was an obscure z-filmmaker whose life and work mirror a lot of the same trappings as DS. From what I gather a lot of died in the wool Burton fans consider ED WOOD his finest film. I'm not a huge Burton fan, so I can't comment on that, but I'm a fanatic of Ed Wood's, and I don't think ED WOOD could've been more perfect. Depp and Burton were absolutely spot-on with ED WOOD. If they can pull off something like that again, this could be great. If not it could be terrible. Eiither way or in between, I don't care as long as iNODS gets restored.
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Retzev, the final clause of your last post completely sums up my feelings about the new Depp/Burton film project.
Still, I wish everyone involved all the best.
G.
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Seriously, I'm more excited about the potential DVD releases and restorations of the original movies. I saw the first movie thanks to Amazon Unbox's broadband video rentals and saw NoDS on VHS but was too young to really appreciate it. Owning either one, especially in their original, restored forms (or as close as humanly possible), would make me very pleased.
Though it's not one I care to see again right away like some of his others, I do feel that Ed Wood is Burton's absolute best film. Plus it has my ideal Julia (Juliet Landau) in it, so at least I can watch that to see Depp and Landau after Helena Bonham Carter gets cast as Julia. [ghost_tongue2]
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I would love Juliet Landua as Julia however not Helena B C. NO!! [ghost_tongue]
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Johnny is a fan from way back, and it doesn't seem a stretch to imagine that Burton is too.
He is. He said in a recent interview for Horrorhound mag that DS "drove a nail into his brain" when he was a kid (or something along those lines) and that it had quite an effect on him. He also mentioned his interest in directing a DS movie, and said he's talked to Depp about it.
Ed Wood is a great film. I forgot about that one when responding to your other post.
And yes, I agree, whatever happens with the new DS movie I hope NODS is restored!
~Penny~
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Saw this subject and thought to reply as: "yes, of course". Since the 2004 never made it to TV or the theater, I'd like to see this project finished and on the big screen. Since Johnny Depp was an original fan of Dark Shadows and always wanted to play Barnabas Collins, I say, "give him a chance". I think he'd be good. Now IMO it's a question of what the screenplay writers and director do with the script. I hope Johnny Depp has a say!
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/dsbarnabasfan/sigtags/barnabasbitesbarnabas.jpg)
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I hope Johnny Depp has a say!
Considering he's one of the producers, I'm pretty sure he does. [ghost_wink]