DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '08 I => Topic started by: Garth Blackwood on May 04, 2008, 12:08:29 AM
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[spoiler]
Remember around episode #955 or so when Willie comes back to town announcing that he's engaged to a woman
named Roxanne. He decided to stay in town to help Barnabas fight the Leviathans, and says that "Roxanne will have to adjust, that's all". Guess what? We never heard from her again. I guess, either a) She left him when he said they were going to live in Collinsport, b) They continued to see each other and we just never heard about it, or c) She was lonely Willie's imaginary friend. :P
[/spoiler]
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I like to think that it was b, that they went on seeing each other, even with all the weird stuff still going on at the time. I like to think Willie winded up finding some kind of happiness.
Of course, we don't know how much Willie may have told his ladylove about Barnabas either.
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Maybe she was Pansy Faye's ghost and Willie didn't know any better. Well, if she was, at least she was a cheap date - didn't have to worry about her ordering the steak dinner.
Gerard
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Honestly, I like C. [ghost_grin] After all, an argument could be made that Willie had an imaginary romance with Maggie, so why not take the next step and have a completely imaginary fiancee? [ghost_wink]
Seriously, though, we barely see Willie after Leviathans, so B could be a possibility. Though I suppose we'd just have to assume that he and Barnabas discussed off screen how funny it was that the woman they were each involved with was named Roxanne...
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My problem with C is the cute phone call that Willie apparently had with Roxanne. I'm not sure he would go so far as to smooch a dial tone...but then, Willie could be kind of strange.
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Don't know if "Summer's Son" by Mary Overstreet is still available for purchase, but here's the link: http://members.aol.com/williehl/index.htm. You'll find it in the fanzine section of the Willie tribute site.
It's the "untold" story of Willie and Rozanne. And it's REALLY good!
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Well I was thinking that maybe right after Barnabas and Julia returned from 1840, Willie finally left Collinwood
with Roxanne and they got married and settle else someplace else.
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I thought I recalled Willie saying in an episode that she decided to split, not wanting to wait around. Perhaps I'm mistaken?
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I don't recall if Willie's mention of "Roxanne" was before, during, or after the introduction of Roxanne Drew. You would think the writers could come up with a different name.
Sally
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It was before the introduction of Roxanne Drew.
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Thanks, Garth. I wonder if they just decided to use the name of someone they realized would never be in the show.
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Long before the I saw the Leviathan arc, I had heard references to the pairing of Barnabas and Roxanne on different fan forums and I'd seen photo stills of the characters together. So when I was watching the episodes for the first time and learned about Willie's Roxanne, I was under the impression that Barnabas somehow took Roxanne away from Willie! I remember being so curious to see how that would play out, and how Willie would react (would he step aside for his old 'friend' Barnabas? Would he fight for his girl? What tension!) only to later find that the two Roxannes were completely different and unrelated characters. [ghost_tongue]
ProfStokes
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I was under the impression that Barnabas somehow took Roxanne away from Willie! I remember being so curious to see how that would play out, and how Willie would react (would he step aside for his old 'friend' Barnabas? Would he fight for his girl? What tension!) only to later find that the two Roxannes were completely different and unrelated characters. [ghost_tongue]
Who knows - perhaps the original plan was indeed for something like that to happen - for Barnabas to return from PT (and 1995) to discover that the RT counterpart to PT Roxanne was involved with Willie. It could have been quite fascinating to see how things played out. But if it was, obviously something changed along the way. However, it is quite odd and it doesn't seem coincidental that Willie would have a Roxanne in his life and that Barnabas would also become involved with a Roxanne in 1970PT. If the plan originally was for them to fight over RT Roxanne, but that plan was dropped, it would certainly explain why we never actually saw Willie's Roxanne during Leviathans and why there's never a reference to her after Leviathans...
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After seeing 1968, I now realize how rare (unique maybe) that moment was between Barnabas and Willie when they were trying to get him to guard the coffin again during Leviathans. They seemed to have mutual respect and concern for each other. I wouldn't have wanted to see that go.
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My explanation:
Barnabas, fed up with Willie spending too much time on Roxanne and not enough on helping him, kidnapped Roxanne and chased her around Collinwood. She escaped via the Stairway Through Time into... oh, let's say 1954. She married a man by the last name of Drew and had a daughter, also named Roxanne. I'm positive the writers had all this in mind.
All kidding aside, I think the writers just forgot about her. They completely forgot about Angelique pulling a Josette and Jeremiah on Maggie and Quentin, too, and that was around the same time, no?
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Roxanne may have been Willie's hand puppet. I'd have liked him to introduce her and press Barnabas to explain to her personally why he needs Willie....
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Entire fanfiction series could be written on that premise.
Another possible explanation is that Barnabas caught sight of Roxanne, thought she was pretty (therefore, he loves her), and hopped in and out of the PT room until he was in a PT where Roxanne was more easily available to him. Or, again, maybe the writers just forgot.
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Another possible explanation is that Barnabas caught sight of Roxanne, thought she was pretty (therefore, he loves her), and hopped in and out of the PT room until he was in a PT where Roxanne was more easily available to him. Or, again, maybe the writers just forgot.
I didn't think the parrallel time room worked like that. It seemed like it only gave a path to one single alternate universe -- not like it randomly selected an alternate reality every time you went there. The reason is because B saw the room many times before he entered it, and all of the scenes he observed were from the same alternate world ... I suppose he could've gotten hit a 1 in 100000000 chance ten times in a row but ...
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We had no confirmation that 1841PT was the same band as 1970PT, correct? If they aren't the same band, it's entirely possible the PT room just "hangs" on one time band until someone enters that band. Regardless, I was kidding about that.
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it might've been very interesting to see if Roxanne was the same as Willie's girlfriend. I'll bet that was the original intention.
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Like Jennifer Evans, Maggie's siater in parallel time, Willie's fiance is a character only referred to. So she could be anybody. Perhaps they would have done something with her if Karlen hadn't taken a break from the show in the summer of 1970 (to do Daughters of Darkness?). Wish they had brought that Roxanne on board. I would have loved to see what her sister Sue Agatha looked like.
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And their evil cousin Luanne.
There were a lot of threads that were just left loose around that time period. That was about the same time that Angelique [spoiler]cast the spell on Quentin and Maggie,[/spoiler] and we never saw that resolved, either. Wonder why.
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[spoiler]Maybe Willie's Roxanne was supposed to have Willie as her vampire victim already.[/spoiler]
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Magnus-- If that were true how did he escape her power when Barnabas asked for his help?
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I don't know. Just wondering. Maybe lack of proximity, maybe she'd have had to consciously forbid him from helping Barnabas-- he knew he'd be rejoining her later, so no major disloyalty. I didn't think about it. I just thought Willie may have been the original Sebastian.
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Maybe somebody staked Roxanne, disabling her power over Willie, and then later the stake was removed, bringing Roxanne back to vampire life but not re-enabling her power over Willie. And after that unlikely turn of events, it should be no trouble at all for somebody to figure out why Willie didn't know Roxanne during the summer of 1970.
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The way Willie talked to his Roxanne over the phone didn't come across as vampire victim to vampire - just man in love to woman, so more than likely his Roxanne was a totally different Roxanne than the one who appeared with Sebastian in 1970. Apparently either Willie's devotion to Barnabas outweighed his love for his Roxanne and they broke up, or he continued his relationship with her even though we never had any indication of that or of the coincidence that both Willie and Barnabas were involved with women named Roxanne. This is DS, after all. Weirder things than that have happened. [ghost_wink]
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MB-- I always liked to think that was a fake phone call where Willie was speaking to a dialtone in reality. I couldn't imagine a real couple actually being that annoying on the phone together, I think Willie was trying to be convincing and overdid it [ghost_smiley]
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Oh, some definitely are. [ghost_wink] And we have no actual indication within the storyline that the phone call was fake, so minus that we have to assume it was completely real. [ghost_smiley]
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MB did you just imply that we can't assume anything that isn't explicitly made clear on DS? [ghost_huh] If you've ever attempted to explain the 1840 storyline and how it relates to 1970, then this must be abandoned [ghost_smiley]
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MB did you just imply that we can't assume anything that isn't explicitly made clear on DS?
One just can't pull assumptions out of thin air to make circumstances meet a theory. [ghost_wink] Things don't always have to made explicitly clear on DS to accept them, especially if there is indirect evidence as support - but there does need to be at least some sort of hinted at reason to doubt them. With Willie and his Roxanne, there was nothing to indicate that their relationship was anything other than what Willie presented it as, and more importantly there's absolutely no evidence of any sort that he knew vamp Roxanne at all.
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I was drawing on Willie's mental instability and terrible sense of loneliness that could have easily driven him to pretend (or possibly believe in his mind) to have that conversation. I mean come ont he guy spent time in a mental instituation, lol... [ghost_cheesy]
By the way I'm joking, but you should watch that scene under the assumption that there is no one on the other line ... it's pretty funny [ghost_smiley]
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Did I start this? If there was anything to my stray thought that Willie was the original Sebastain Shaw, then it was abandoned before any filming took place.
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MB did you just imply that we can't assume anything that isn't explicitly made clear on DS? [ghost_huh] If you've ever attempted to explain the 1840 storyline and how it relates to 1970, then this must be abandoned [ghost_smiley]
Right you are, Garth. In 1970, both Daphne and Sebastian imply some sort of connection between Roxanne and Gerard Stiles. Once the stoty shifts to 1840 proper, the characters barely know each other.
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Though when it comes to Roxanne in 1840 we have to keep in mind that [spoiler]she wasn't originally destroyed,[/spoiler]so we have no way of knowing whether or not the connection Daphne and Sebastian implied between Roxanne and Gerard might have happened at some point after that in the original timeline.
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MB-- That is exactly the kind of extrapolation beyond what the show tells us that I was referring to that is necessary for the 1840/1970 storyline
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Though there are probably numerous examples of something that was mentioned/established before a journey into the past occurred but turned out to be very different in the past - it's certainly not something exclusive to 1840/41. I mean, OMG - look at 1795/96! [eek] And at least when someone has altered something in the past, it can make sense with little to no extrapolation why what was originally established in the present didn't take place in the past as we saw it. But with 1795/96 Vicki certainly never changed anything that would have so radically shifted the past from all that we were led to believe in the present. When it comes to discrepancies between the present day story and what actually transpired in the past, 1795/96 is hands down the storyline with the most glaring inconsistencies - and the show does little to nothing to explain away many of them! Not even Joshua's redacting of history manages to explain away everything. [ghost_wink]
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Barnabas is a great big fibber. There, 1795 all solved....
As for 1970/1840, I'm going to mention periodically my newfound conviction that Barnabas and Julia fixed history and therefore averted most of the events or relationships implied in 1970. Judah Stiles' real reign of terror begins after he becomes master of Collinwood. Were there any specifics about Roxanne/Gerard in 1970? I don't remember any of that.
Actually they fixed history and then re-broke it, in a different way.
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Barnabas is a great big fibber. There, 1795 all solved....
Sorry, but Barnabas isn't the only source for some of the things we were led to believe about 1795 that turned out not to be true. Not by a long shot! [b003]
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There were a lot of threads that were just left loose around that time period. That was about the same time that Angelique [spoiler]cast the spell on Quentin and Maggie,[/spoiler] and we never saw that resolved, either. Wonder why.
That always bothered me as well. Probably actor availability as much as anything else. Lara Parker was off the show for quite a while after the PT/1995 storyline. When she finally returned, KLS had left the show for good.
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we never saw that resolved, either. Wonder why.
I think it makes some amount of sense that that was never resolved:
[spoiler]
Two reasons: 1) Josette basically "broke up" with him when she gave him back her ring late in the leviathan story. This probably had some affect on his feelings for maggie. 2) He went into PT while this saga you mentioned was occurring. While there he fell in love with another person (roxanne). So when he got back, there was no need to continue the spell on Q and M (and Angelique had mysteriously disappeared by that time, LOL.. I guess she knew what happened to B in PT or something, lol...)
[/spoiler]
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Sorry, but Barnabas isn't the only source for some of the things we were led to believe about 1795 that turned out not to be true. Not by a long shot! [b003]
The family history, various family legends, and Barnabas' memory were all severely flawed. There, all solved!
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If that will work for 1795/96, well, then one can use the exact same/similar excuses for 1840/41. [ghost_wink] All solved there, too.
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If that will work for 1795/96, well, then one can use the exact same/similar excuses for 1840/41. [ghost_wink] All solved there, too.
I don't follow. The mistakes about 1795/6 were primarily factual errors, such as the names of people and the years that things happened.
There was little reference in 1970 to historical events of 1840/1-- the problems there were more of the flavor of "wow this really just makes no sense, and I have to make up some crazy story about how 1840 relates to the events of 1970 [ghost_sad]"
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Well, IF we want to go that route, then everything that we supposedly learned in 1970 was the byproduct of severely faulty memories or outright fantasies. Perhaps even Gerard/Judah deliberately caused everyone to spread misinformation. So, see - all explained away. [b003]
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Well, IF we want to go that route, then everything that we supposedly learned in 1970 was the byproduct of severely faulty memories or outright fantasies. See. All explained away. [b003]
So you are seriously trying to say that, if everyone has hallucinating for approximately 50 consecutive episodes, then everything is explained. OK, fine..
I was referring to the possible lack of integrity of historical "facts", which seems the slightest bit more plausible.
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Well, IF we want to go that route, then everything that we supposedly learned in 1970 was the byproduct of severely faulty memories or outright fantasies. See. All explained away.
So you are seriously trying to say that, if everyone has hallucinating for approximately 50 consecutive episodes, then everything is explained. OK, fine..
I was referring to the possible lack of integrity of historical "facts", which seems the slightest bit more plausible.
I'm not seriously trying to say anything (hence the winks). And I didn't take your original remark seriously either because I assumed you were joking. For one, there's the huge discrepancy when it comes to Jeremiah's age. That requires something far more serious than flawed memories - it would require people to have been delusional! [ghost_wink]
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For one, there's the huge discrepancy when it comes to Jeremiah's age. That requires something far more serious than flawed memories - it would require people to have been delusional! [ghost_wink]
There are plenty of examples in historical documents where the age of particular person was way off. For all we know Daniel had a son born in 1804 named Jeremiah, who died in 1839 or something, and the subsequent mistakes were made because of the existence of two Jeremiah's.
This all happened 175 years ago for Barnabas, so the hazyness of his memory and the flaws with historical documents seem to be the slightest bit more reasonable than a mass delusion of the people at Collinwood in 1970.
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FYI, I'm just giving you a hard time MB [ghost_wink]. I hope you don't conclude I'm just an argumentative jerk and hate me from now on [ghost_embarrassed]
(by the way, arguing with the master of dartmoor, like everything else, is most likely punishable by the death penalty)
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Well, it's hard to imagine that a different Jeremiah would have been confused with the Jeremiah who was an old man, a man much older than Barnabas, when he marriied Josette.
And I wasn't even jokingly suggesting the people of 1970 Collinwood would have had to have been delusional - they were simply suffering from the faulty memories you suggested for the people of 1795/96 and subsequent generations who passed those faulty stories/legends down. I was, however, pointing out that anyone who believed the Jeremiah who mariied Josette was much older than Barnabas would have had to have been delusional when in truth Barnabas and Jeremiah were the same age.
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FYI, I'm just giving you a hard time MB [ghost_wink]. I hope you don't conclude I'm just an argumentative jerk and hate me from now on [ghost_embarrassed]
Not at all. [ghost_smiley]
(by the way, arguing with the master of dartmoor, like everything else, is most likely punishable by the death penalty)
(Well, he'd have to catch me first - and I'm a wily one. [ghost_cheesy])
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Well, it's hard to imagine that a different Jeremiah would have been confused with the Jeremiah who was an old man, a man much older than Barnabas, when he marriied Josette.
And I wasn't even jokingly suggesting the people of 1970 Collinwood would have had to have been delusional - they were simply suffering from the faulty memories you suggested for the people of 1795/96 and subsequent generations who passed those faulty stories/legends down.
I was, however, pointing out that anyone who believed the Jeremiah who mariied Josette was much older than Barnabas would have had to have been delusional when in truth Barnabas and Jeremiah were the same age.
The second thing you said--- Like I said before, very little historical (from 1840/1) facts were mentioned in 1970. So, you mean faulty memories of things that occurred in the present time? I was talking about B forgetting something that happened 175 years ago/the history book had misprints in it. You are talking about people forgetting things that just happened to them? k....
The third thing you said--- I'm saying this could have due to a misprint in the history book or something. Like he was really born in 1765, but the book, for some reason said 1745. Or, for some reason, the book was intentionally transcribed incorrectly (as we know this happens frequently).
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When it comes to Jeremiah, we're not strictly talking dates - we're talking about intimate descriptions of his life. [ghost_wink]
Maybe we should simply agree to disagree because this exchange in going in circles - and that's never a good thing...
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Thats fine because if you honestly believe that the holes in the 1840 storyline are equal in magnitude to those with the 1795 storyline then there is beyond no point in talking about it
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That's not quite the points I was trying to get across - but we'll leave it at that. [ghost_smiley]
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The way I see it, Dark Shadows' timeline is a living thing, constantly changing. Practically everyone altered it or was affected by someone else's alterations at some point, and occasionally the future changed, and occasionally it didn't. [spoiler]Barnabas didn't remember Vicki taking Phyllis Wick's place in the past, and yet they managed to sort out all the messes Gerard caused in 1970 by their fiddling with 1840 (fiddling so extensive that it would probably have caused Quentin to never have been born, or at least been a totally different person, due to the deaths of Gabriel and Edith, as they didn't have any grandchildren when they died, and Edward mentioned "Grandfather always favoring Quentin," which makes no sense to start with, as Gabriel hated the first Quentin and likely would have hated his namesake... headasplody!. Also, since the Leviathans prevented Barnabas from making it back to his coffin at the end of 1897, Willie never would have been able to find him in 1967, rendering the entire series from the introduction of Barnabas to the end null and void.[/spoiler]
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The way I see it, Dark Shadows' timeline is a living thing, constantly changing.
If only Dark Shadows had lasted a little while longer, we could have had a storyline about the Dark Shadows timeline finally getting fed up with all the shenanigans it had been put through, and threatening to kill off the whole Collins family if Barnabas and Julia didn't just leave it alone!
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Imagine someone trying to explain that one to Roger!
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LMAO!! OH Magnus how I love your wit as I have said many times before. LOL [ghost_tongue2]
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LMAO!! OH Magnus how I love your wit as I have said many times before. LOL [ghost_tongue2]
Very encouraging to hear on a bleak night, thanks!