DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '08 I => Topic started by: Gothick on May 02, 2008, 04:22:21 PM
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Fans,
My copy of the 14th DVD set arrived last night, and despite my busy schedule, I was able to test-drive the first two discs in the set, watch some favorite scenes (gotta love Magda getting in Barnabas' face all the time--and grabbing her wig in that one scene!), and look at the set. One thing that bemused me, however, was that in the booklet that comes with the discs, [spoiler]in the short description of the episode in which Jenny is murdered by Quentin; it says "Quentin ACCIDENTALLY kills Jenny," or words to that effect.
Now, I remember having a lengthy back-and-forth with a dear friend of mine the last tme Sci Fi broadcast these shows (it was her first chance to see them since her childhood viewing) and we both commented about how typical it was of Q to claim that Jenny's death was an accident when, the way Selby played the scene, it was quite clear that Q killed her very much in cold blood.
I can't recall whether Ann Wilson's episode guide in the DS Memories book (which I regard as the best of all the various episode guides available) also implied that Q killed his ex-wife "accidentally." In general, Q's relationships with his past lovers do not paint him in at all an attractive light. He obviously hated Laura at first sight upon her return (and she cordially returned the favor---the scenes betweeen these two have to be among the finest moments in the entire series!) and was even more vicious towards Jenny.[/spoiler]The original characterization of Quentin seems to have played off the late Sixties theme of the anti-hero--something that is very much out of fashion these days. With Quentin even more so than with Barnabas, once the teeny-bopper adulation and the 16 magazine interviews began, they really seem to have softened and "rehabilitated" Q's character.
btw, on the first disc in this set, there's a great interview with Selby where he reveals that some more insistent fans were camping out in the lobby of his apartment building, demanding that he adopt them! Great stuff.
G.
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[spoiler]
Well I think Quentin had decided not to kill Jenny, and only ended up killing her as an act of self defense. He most likely could have handled the situation without killing her, as he had her held down without the knife at the exact moment of strangulation. However, one could argue that the rage he felt toward her after she already killed him once, and was attempting to do it again, caused him to abandon reason and just freak out and kill her. So, insofar as one can claim acts of passion are "accidents", you could claim it was an accident.
[/spoiler]
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Hi Garth,
Well, I haven't had the chance yet to watch that particular episode again, but from what I remember, the scene was played [spoiler]as if Q could have chosen to disarm Jenny and leave it at that. The way he and Marie played the scene, however, it seemed clear that he murdered her in cold blood. That's how I remember it, anyway.
From what I can recall, the scripts don't give us any insight into the backstory of Quentin's love with Jenny. The only signs of remorse I can recall come when Q realizes that Jenny had had a son and daughter by him. And even then, his remorse was for how his actions had resulted in the death of his baby son. Truly tragic. A lot of the writing for Q in the original 1897 storyline really plays on the ancient Greek notion of a "fatal flaw."[/spoiler]
cheers, G.
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[spoiler] I recall how much Quentin wants to get rid of Jenny once he was brought back to life after she had stabbed him to death. Of course he was willing to back off as long as Beth was willing to um, shall we say, keep him satisfied.
I like to believe Quentin didn't really intend to kill Jenny when she attacked him and Beth, but considering how anxious he was to do away with her before, I can't be absolutely sure.
[/spoiler]
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Everybody's right. It was a murky situation and life's full of them. Put every thing everyone's said together, and that's it.
Now I'm only missing the bit between [spoiler]when Q is a zombie and when the fire happens at the school. hard to believe that's only a dozen episodes or so.[/spoiler]
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Iluvbarny-- [spoiler]
I don't think one can reasonably argue he wasn't trying to kill Jenny at that point. He had her completely subdued and Beth was begging him to stop and he kept on strangling her until she died. Maybe he was temporarily insane, but in that insane state he was certainly trying to kill her. It's not like he was just trying to cut of her air temporarily to teach her a lesson. :D
[/spoiler]
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Iluvbarny-- [spoiler]
I don't think one can reasonably argue he wasn't trying to kill Jenny at that point. He had her completely subdued and Beth was begging him to stop and he kept on strangling her until she died. Maybe he was temporarily insane, but in that insane state he was certainly trying to kill her. It's not like he was just trying to cut of her air temporarily to teach her a lesson. :D
[/spoiler]
I guess an argument could be made that Quentin was temporarily insane at the time [spoiler] he strangled Jenny. Still, before that, he was ready to kill her when he went to the Old House and found she was locked in Josette's room. Only Beth stopped him. She wasn't able to at the time he was strangling Jenny, so maybe he really couldn't help or stop what he was doing, it could go either way. [/spoiler]
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You're all right.
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Now on to the more important question of why the only real difference between crazy Jenny and regular Jenny was that her hair was messed up.
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G.,
you're right about the quentin character's 'rehabilitation'.
but the barnabas 'rehab' i get.they actually took the time to explain it within the storyline.quentin not so much.
david selby was such an awesome villain in 1968 and the early part of 1897 but once the 'tiger beat' covers start and he becomes a heartthrob for the tween set the writers make him 'nice'(or something approximating that,i'm not exactly sure of what they were going for but it's kind of boring)i never,ever understand the character again.
and apart from selby's startling good looks his stratospheric popularity within the d.s. fanbase has always somewhat escaped me. [a2a3]
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For what it's worth, the DS Program Guide also characterizes[spoiler]Jenny's death as happening "accidentally"[/spoiler]- though that may not count for much as both versions of the PG claim[spoiler]Barnabas shoots Trask in Ep #1198 instead of stabs him, which is clearly what actually happens.[/spoiler]
but once the 'tiger beat' covers start and he becomes a heartthrob for the tween set
Let's not forget that it wasn't just the teenagers who fell for Quentin/Selby. The adult daytime magazines featured him just as regularly as the teen magazines did - and a good chunk of the adoring letters to the editor as well as his fan mail came from adult women.
and apart from selby's startling good looks his stratospheric popularity within the d.s. fanbase has always somewhat escaped me. [a2a3]
Oh, you've really stepped into it now. If any of the more rabid Psychos For Selby (that's what they honestly call themselves) get wind of that remark, you may need 24/7 police protection! [lghy]
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I think it was an "accident." He simply got out of control. Not that he was incapable of having a rather low disregard for human life when it suited him. After all, look what happened in Egypt.
Gerard
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mysterious,
i'm considering the federal witness relocation program. [ghost_wink]
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Well, again, I do plan to revisit those episodes shortly, but from what I recall, [spoiler] I don't see how anyone could describe it as an "accident." For that to wash for me, he would have had to show some remorse after the fact, or come to Beth in a horrendous state (as he very believably did in the early episodes when he was starting to experience the curse) crying "what did I do? what happened?" (Even so, I could imagine faking such remorse for the typical reason why men deceive their women--to get Beth sympathetic enough to let Q back into her bed. Not that that ever seems to have presented a serious difficulty for him.)
No, as I recall it, after Jenny's death he was all "good riddance to bad rubbish." Until Magda came after him and he realized she meant business, of course.[/spoiler]
G.
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Accidentally on purpose. Yeah.
[spoiler]I mean, he was all ready to break into the Josette's room at the Old House and shoot her. The only thing that stopped him was when Beth reminded him that if he went through with it, he would have to face the consequences (hanging for murder).
I'm guessing that when he finally did get his hands around her throat (after her second attempt at murdering him, though I can't really blame her) rage and self-preservation took over and he couldn't have stopped himself if he tried. Maybe his mind just blanked out and he didn't realize what he was doing until it he had already gone too far.[/spoiler]
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I can definitely understand why Quentin, and David Selby, became such a huge hit in '69-'70. The original Quentin Collins stooryline put the character through his very own Greek tragedy. He went from charming, ruthless rogue, to scheming lothariio, to money-hungry black magician, to bawling, traumatized victim, all within a couple of months. The actor simply radiated emotional energy in the role--in every way this was a bravura performance.
After 1897 he never was given such wonderful material to work with again, although a montage of Quentin/Desmond scenes run at a Festival at which Selby and John Karlen shared a stage did show how beautifully both men played off one another in the otherwise somewhat lacklustre 1840 storyline.
Just some thoughts--I'm sure other fans will have their own opinions. I'm not a "Psycho for Selby," but I did enjoy the shots of his fine derriere in the movie The Girl in Blue (added for purposes of full disclosure--of course!). And I've talked to him a couple of times about Grayson and found him to be that rarissime in today's world--a gentleman.
G.
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Accidentally on purpose. Yeah.
[spoiler]I mean, he was all ready to break into the Josette's room at the Old House and shoot her. The only thing that stopped him was when Beth reminded him that if he went through with it, he would have to face the consequences (hanging for murder).
I'm guessing that when he finally did get his hands around her throat (after her second attempt at murdering him, though I can't really blame her) rage and self-preservation took over and he couldn't have stopped himself if he tried. Maybe his mind just blanked out and he didn't realize what he was doing until it he had already gone too far.[/spoiler]
What you wrote is also my personal view of what happened.
[spoiler]Even though Quentin did seem to have a "good riddance" attitude after Jenny's death, I think it was purely because she was constantly trying kill him. Q wouldn't have wanted Jenny dead if she wasn't a homicidal maniac.[/spoiler]
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[spoiler]Even though Quentin did seem to have a "good riddance" attitude after Jenny's death, I think it was purely because she was constantly trying kill him. Q wouldn't have wanted Jenny dead if she wasn't a homicidal maniac.[/spoiler]
[spoiler] It was Quentin's own fault that Jenny turned into a homicial maniac out to kill him. It was his infidelity and his abandoning her that drove her over the edge. [/spoiler]
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[pointing-up] The adage, You reap what you sow, was never more true.
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I'm just trying to say that there isn't a big important difference between intentional and unintentional in this case. He hovers in an inbetween zone between homicidal maniac and virtuous guy who wouldn't hurt a fly, and isn't anywhere close to being either. He didn't fully mean to do it at that second, but did want to do it earlier. Anyway, if you strangle someone to death you're a murderer. You can't say, I meant to strangle her less hard... his murder was a murder, but to some extent he felt backed into a corner. Jenny was miserable, and dangereous, wasn't she? No good end to that story.
It sounds as if people are trying to decide if Q is innocent or guilty. Sorry, he's neither or both.
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The way I look at it. [spoiler]If Quentin would not kill Jenny, then she will kill him.[/spoiler]
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I always find it interesting that, on the whole, people let Quentin off the hook for killing Jenny, while they cannot forgive
[spoiler]Barnabas for killing Carl.[/spoiler]
My impression is that Quentin had smaller hands and would have had to work harder at it.
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Having re-watched a couple of the episodes in question over the weekend--
[spoiler]The scene of Jenny's death played exactly as I remembered it. Quentin disarmed her, then pushed her down on the bed and squeezed the life's breath right out of her, his face a mask of murderous rage, while Beth screamed and wept and begged him to stop. She died with her eyes still open, staring in horror at what was happening (unfortunately, probably due to awkwardness in manoeuvring around a rather tight sight, we didn't get a very artistic shot of Marie's face with eyes glaring sightllessly upwards at the end.
However, in a subsequent scene with Edward, both Beth and Quentin describe what happened as an "accident." Since I have not seen the script, I've never known whether it was written to be played as if Quentin was just trying to make sure she had really been disarmed and "acciidentally" strangled her to death, or whether it was the director and David Selby's decision to play it as if Quentin was in a state of coldly murderous rage, bordering on bestial (an interesting choice of words given the curse that falls on hiim shortly thereafter).
Also, although I had not remembered it, some weeks later, when Magda has been ordered by Angelique to fetch Quentin, Quentin and Magda have a scene in which Quentin does express how much he loved Jenny and hints at feeling something like remorse for her death. It's a short scene but the two of them play it beautifully (I think David and Grayson had great onscreen chem--they did a play together later in the Seventies, too).
One final comment--I really love the sequence of Quentin's nightmare of being forced by Magda and Sandor to bless Jenny's dead body. I love the staging, the accompaniment by what might have been a live-on-set quiet bongo, the feel of something you could have seen in a New York off-off B'way production of the period. Grand stuff.
[/spoiler]
G.
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Great thread, and once again,coming in late <Just call me the White Rabbit>. I had just had most of a post written when the internet gremlins decided to close explorer,so here's my attempt at reconstructing it....
(SPOILERS! --posted by admin)
At one time I powerwatched these scenes repeatedly for stuff I was writing,as I needed to think out the POV of all the participants. My conclusion on Quentin was that the attack was a surprise and he didn't ACT so much as REact. I think his INITIAL reaction was just to stop her, and things got out of hand. One thing that only a few posters took into account was his previous stabbing by Jenny. We are shown that he has no recollection of his time as a zombie -- but his memories of the stabbing by Jenny are as clear as the proverbial bell, and he has this understandable reluctance to repeat the experience. I would compare this to the instances of cops who are shot in the line of duty -- then overreact BIGTIME the next time a similar circumstance occurs. PTSD wasn't known then (as most mental conditions weren't) but here's someone who was attacked and nearly killed,being attacked again by the same person under similar circumstances. This is known for causing the victim to relive the circumstances of the initial attack. Only this time,not as a helpless victim knifed before he could defend himself, but in circumstances where he has the upper hand. THis to me is the most plausible explanation, as it covers Quentin's continuing, the expression of rage (and to me it looks like he is looking at her, but doesn't SEE her,if you know what I mean) -- and also what no one has mentioned,his reaction right afterward. Once Jenny is dead, Beth's cries FINALLY get through to him and he looks down and actually FOCUSSES on what he has done.His initial expression seems to me a cross between horror and about to vomit -- then he runs as if the hounds of hell are on his heels. Remember too that the early Quentin tended to talk big and make a lot of threats that he never followed through on-- and there's a lot of difference between planning murder in the abstract,and actually killing someone with your bare hands.
Also, as MagnusTrask points out, its not important in the long run since she is still dead. I would qualify that, though to state that it matters as regards where and how the character develops from that point on; his experiences and perceptions of the experience influencing the way he changed after that.
As to the remorse, Gothick points out the one scene right after he is cursed. That seems to be to be simple human nature. Once Jenny was dead, he didn't see that Jenny anymore, but would be remembering the early one, the one he fell in love with. There's also a later scene, when Jenny comes to him in a dream,asking him not to bring Lenore to Collinwood. He's talking to her, and telling her how he wishes things could have been different for them. I can't see that as anything but genuine remorse, since there's nothing he wants or can get from her. He doesn't even ask her to forgive him. Perhaps thats because, as with Beth's ghost later on, he couldn't ask for or accept her forgiveness because he wasn't able to forgive himself.
Jeannie