DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '08 I => Topic started by: IluvBarnabas on April 01, 2008, 07:21:25 PM
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Reading a post about 1840 made me think about the whole storyline in general.
PROS:
Possession of Gerard by Judah Zachery.
Blossoming romances of Quentin and Daphne and Desmond and Leticia.
The family feud over who gets the Collins fortune (mainly between Gabriel and Samantha).
Ditzy Flora (at least during the first half of the story).
CONS:
Barnabas' unimaginable declaration of love for Angelique.
The absence of Tad and Carrie for most of the storyline.
Edith's murder (when we know she should have been alive since she WAS around in 1897).
No explanation of how Roxanne originally became a vampire in 1840.
I myself thoroughly enjoyed 1840 despite the mind-numbing snags in the CONS I just listed.
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I like 1840 a great deal. I think DS revved up again and redeemed itself with 1840, after spinning its wheels painfully with the preceding few storylines.
PROS:
Gabriel, and all the Gabriel-Gerard-Samantha intrigue, especially at the beginning
Ang fresh from 1795, instead of time-jumping Ang
Barnabas as his 1840 self
1840 Ben (we hardly knew ye)
Julia knowing more than Ang for once
Lamar's final moments
Lamar's ironic profession
Daniel
John Karlen mastering his mainstream accent, Desmond the hero in general
Anything and everything about The Head.... the nauseous horror of it, Desmond's cluelessness about whipping off the cover and showing it to everyone.... Flora's weak flustered sputtering about how she'll never believe that this disembodied head is just some innocent little knick-knack....!!!! Julia as Frankenstein, only the "experiment" is genuinely scary this time.... GREAT new piece of music that accompanies the Head, especially that dark, surreal "swirling" effect at the end of that music....
The complicated, surprising resolution to the Barnabas/Ang story, with her reformation etc.. See elsewhere for any remarks of mine on why it worked.
Barnabas showing up in court after Trask had bricked him up.
The rationale behind the Staircase. There is no time, only physical space.... that's fascinating. I like trying to wrap my head around that. I doubt that could be an original idea on their part, but it's the only place I've ever heard it.
CONS:
Continuity: As always, Barney no go back in box at end. That's just incredibly sloppy and crazy of them. Ang killed in 1840, though that was dramatically great.
Quentin being framed all over again. Witchcraft trial again.
Gerard while possessed. I preferred Gerard the human scoundrel, and the real source of genuine horror, the Head, was out of the picture.
Backdating Ang to the 17th century. After a century of witchery she decided to work as a servant in Martinique?
I'm sure I have more complaints, but can't think of them. I like 1840. The repetition of 1897 elements is annoying, but everything was stolen or reused ad nauseum on DS, I'm finding out, so I'd better find a way to deal with it.
The confusing origin of Roxanne as a vampire... we don't usually see the present-day consequences of Barnabas's actions in the past, before Barnabas has gone back and made those changes, in his personal time-line. I like it, it's just inconsistent.
NOT A PROBLEM: Lack of Tad and Carrie toward end. Recently it hit me that all the stuff that made Gerard/Judah's ghost so bitter and caused all those ghosts to haunt Collinwood in 1970-- all that happened in 1841 or later, after Judah was master of Collinwood. All that was prevented from happening... of course we don't see those events. If we did, the problems wouldn't have been averted, and they were.
Roxanne being killed in 1840. I'm not quite sure how this could be a problem. Time-travel mission accomplished, that's what it indicates to me. The problem with her as a vampire in 1970 is over.
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Gerards tombstone states he died in 1841, so the events regarding his death & Tad, Carrie, & Daphne could have happened well after Quentin's hanging.
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i didn't love or hate 1840.i was just indifferent to it.
in fact i couldn't even get through it all.it just started to bore me.
starting with the 'summer of 1970' episodes the show started to feel warmed over to me.it had lost much of it's freshness and originality.
i always enjoy a switch to a new time period with it's corresponding change of characters,sets and costumes but a few weeks into 1840 it ran out of steam for me and i felt like alot of the actors(especially grayson and jonathan)seemed sort of worn out.
that's just my take on it.no offense to those who enjoyed this storyline.
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I liked the 1840 storyline. I didn't hate it, I don't hate any storylines on DS, I just severely dislike some of them, or portions of the one's that I do like. 1840 wasn't very original because it was basically a new twist on the 1897 storyline that had already been done. I think the writers really missed a chance for an interesting story by not involving that ship (its name slips my mind) more than just a mention of it before the storyline.
I liked Angelique during this storyline (hell, I like her in any storyline--she made 70PT) as well as Barnabas. Flora was the all-time best character in that storyline because of her utter ditziness. And I agree with Maguns Trask about Gerard being better when he wasn't possessed, because I could actually hate him during that time. When he was possessed, I couldn't really blame him because it was Judah who was making him do that stuff.
Quentin's trial was a bore, I'll say that. I didn't really care for it after seeing Vicki's trial, even though that trial was so long ago. But we knew that Quentin wasn't in any real jeopardy, because they weren't going to kill him off. Maybe if he had've died it would've been worth it.
And I also like what Magnus said about the rationale behind the staircase. It is a very interesting concept, and would make for an interesting, yet perplexing, read.
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I was also, and remain, indifferent to the 1840 storyline. It was basically, to me, a retread of both 1795 and 1897. What made it watchable to me was Virginia Vestoff as Samantha Collins. Everything about her was perfect, from her character, to her acting, to even her hairstyle. She was the ultimate Queen of Mean. If she had gone head to head with Angelique, she would've won hands down, and wouldn't have needed any supernatural powers to come out on top. Too bad they had her flake out over the return of Quentin's undead past love.
Gerard
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I'm only half way through re-watching it, but it's been a damn fun trip so far.
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The thing I remember about the 1840 storyline is when Professor Stokes found his way back to 1840 from
using the staircase and Barnabas and Julia were there when he came through. I was excited about that
when Professor Stokes was going to be a relative of Ben.
But after Professor Stokes entered Collinwood by introducing himself as a relative of Ben, I think that was
all they showed of Professor Stokes.
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I was also, and remain, indifferent to the 1840 storyline. It was basically, to me, a retread of both 1795 and 1897. What made it watchable to me was Virginia Vestoff as Samantha Collins. Everything about her was perfect, from her character, to her acting, to even her hairstyle. She was the ultimate Queen of Mean. If she had gone head to head with Angelique, she would've won hands down, and wouldn't have needed any supernatural powers to come out on top. Too bad they had her flake out over the return of Quentin's undead past love.
Maybe this is what you meant with the "flaking out", but Samantha always struck me as someone who's not very bright or determined, who compensates for that with a lot of self-righteous bluster. She acts very defiant right up until the point when someone actually challenges her seriously, then she plays victim. She's a house of cards. A good character, but not a "strong" one, to me.
As for 1840 being warmed-over 1897/1795, one definitely has to try to look the other way on that, to enjoy the storyline. Maybe it's just me, but I can almost feel Jonathan Frid's weariness as he trudges through another long storyline taken from other storylines. For me, it was a given that DS wasn't going to do anything original by this point, so the best we could hope for was one last hurrah, where they plunged us back into an atmospheric past era, and shuffled all the reused plot elements so that they weren't too close to the originals.
This beats Jeckyl-Hyde and Rebecca ripoffs and asthmatic invisible monsters and cheap insufferable pigs, I think. (No disrespect to any fans intended.) DS seems to "wake up" at that moment when it goes into the past, including 1840. I get that "oh yes, I remember now why I like this series" feeling. Mr. Frid gets reanimated, too. At the start of these past storylines I get the sense that inside he's saying "Finally, something for me to sink my teeth into again!" ...and now that I've noticed the pun in that sentence, I'm declaring it intentional.....
Wouldn't it have been fascinating for 1970 Barnabas to stay out of the picture, with Julia being asked to fix everything in spite of 1840 Barnabas?
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When Stokes first arrived in 1840, I thought he was meant to be the lawyer for Quentin & desmond, that would have been an interesting role. Though they needed to have Barnabas as the center of the stpry.
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I love 1840 for many of the reasons already stated , so I won't repeat them. What I will repeat, though, for the sake of new members who might not know is that back in the late '90s there was a DS group on AOL called Dark Shadows Online (which predated Craig Hamrick's Web site) which held a sort of DS Academy Awards called the Brandies, and 1840 was voted the third most favorite DS storyline among the hundreds of DS fans who voted. (1795 came in first, 1897 second.)
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i find that quite surprising. [ghost_shocked]
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It's true nonetheless. And 1840 initially competed with every other DS storyline. All of them were on the first ballot, and then the top three vote getters (in all the categories, like Farorite Actor, Actress, Severed Body Part, etc.) competed on the final ballot.
(The log of the entire Brandies online ceremony (hosted by Diana Millay) is posted in the Members' Archive. Though, of course, no one but Midnite and I currently have access to it.)
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I was thinking of naming 1840 as my 3rd favorite... 1967 might be third for me, but there's more spinning of the wheels than i'm comfortable with...
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I liked 1840 basically but the main thing (aside from the obvious, such as the roxanne paradox) that I found problematic is:
What the heck happened in 1840 the first time around that caused the events of 1970?? In 1897 and 1795 it was clearly explained what happened the first time, and what (if applicable) things changed. In 1840 I have no clue what happened the first time around. How did Gerard die originally? Was Quentin originallly convicted and executed? If true, the second thing seems like Barnabas and Julia would have found this out with a little research in 1970 -- either from the family history or court records or something. What did the family history originally say about Quentin I?
I just don't think the 1840 plot had much to do with the 1970 events, and the connection between them was never even attempted to be explained.
Overall, I think 1840 was decent, but definately by far my least favorite plot of them all.
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Yes, BC and JH never really did their homework, so they and we don't know.
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So far my favorite part of the 1840 Storyline is when Barnabas found Julia kept as a prisoner down in
a basement from Angelique and Roxanne. Then Barnabas encountered Roxanne when he was trying
to save Julia. But it would seem to me although Roxanne was a vampire, she was still would be under
Barnabas's control.
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How did Gerard die originally?
I don't think we're told how Gerard originally died.
Was Quentin originallly convicted and executed?
We learned in 1970 that Gerard killed him.
If true, the second thing seems like Barnabas and Julia would have found this out with a little research in 1970 -- either from the family history or court records or something. What did the family history originally say about Quentin I?
Since he was buried in an unmarked grave in a remote part of the cemetery, I doubt there would be an official death record to find; Gerard probably would have seen to that too. Julia was able to determine the date Quentin died because his diary entries suddenly stopped.
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I remain astonished by how many fans are unbothered by the sloppy writing of 1840.
Very little of it makes sense.
Though 1795 & 1897 are wonderful, the early B & W Barnabas eps show that DS could be grand in modern times. All that was needed was good scripts & good acting!
David
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I dug up these neilson ratings from an online encyclopedia that has ratings for all the soaps year by year I would assume that except for the debut episode these are yearly averages
Dark Shadows debut 4.1
66-67 4.3
67-68 7.3
68-69 8.4
69-70 7.3
70-71 5.3
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These were indeed yearly Neilsens.
Neilsen means nothing to me.
DS was known to have around 20 million viewers at its 1969 peak.
8.4 only counts for half of that.
Last year, MSNBC did a story that suggests that Neilsen has been undercounting each show by around 30% for a long, long time.
A good example are the 3 current soaps on ABC, all at an all time Neilsen low.
But Neilsen, by it's own admission, does not include TIVO viewers who might save the show for a weekend marathon.
When you add those viewers, plus each show's Soapnet reruns, the viewership could easily double.
But there's no question about it: bad writing cost DS a lot of viewers during the final year.
I understand that the cast/crew was getting burned out~~it was a hard show to do.
Still, why couldn't they bring DS to the 5 year anniversary, end all storylines properly & give the characters a proper farewell?
David
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In addition to what I said above, I guess my primary problem with the 1840 story is that the writers simply did not care to explain why anything happened.
For example, why did the ghosts of Gerard and Daphne start haunting the house in 1970?? Why not any other time? At least in 1897, Quentin's ghost was "released" by the kids discovering his room and doing various things for him. With Gerard's ghost, they just basically showed up one day and started making the playroom appear, with apparently no external cause. The only even half-reason is that Hallie had shown up, making the pair Tad & Carrie together again, but it still seems like Gerard's ghost should have had power and been able to cause trouble without the kids (especially considering how unimportant they ended up being).
Along the lines of what I said before, I really don't see how the events of 1840 could have caused the events of 1970. Whoever heard of a ghost possessing another ghost (since apparently Gerard's ghost was actually Judah's ghost)?? When Gerard's body died, I don't see why Judah's ghost would remain with him-- it seems like the his soul would just return to the Head or something.
Lastly-- what was so special about shooting Gerard with a gun that caused Judah's soul to leave his body before he died? Gerard obviously died around 1840 in the original timeline, so why didn't Judah's body leave his soul that time? I guess it was an enchanted gun or something ...
All of the other DS stories can somehow be rationalized based on the rules we know about the universe of DS, but that's considerably harder with 1840, which is why its my least favorite by far
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In addition to what I said above, I guess my primary problem with the 1840 story is that the writers simply did not care to explain why anything happened.
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All of the other DS stories can somehow be rationalized based on the rules we know about the universe of DS, but that's considerably harder with 1840, which is why its my least favorite by far
You got that right, Mr. B.
NOTHING in this storyline makes a lick of sense!
Should I start talking about the 1840 deaths of Angelique, Edith & Roxanne again?
David
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Should I start talking about the 1840 deaths of Angelique, Edith & Roxanne again?
Well one could always pass that off to someone changing history, since we observed 1897 before 1840 had been changed. However that will never explain how Roxanne became a vampire originally which, in my mind, is the greatest and most nebulous DS paradox, LOL..
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In addition to what I said above, I guess my primary problem with the 1840 story is that the writers simply did not care to explain why anything happened.
Count me as someone who loves 1840. It has continuity holes, and the story seemed to change course as soon as it began (as did 1795), but I don't think it's fair to assume this was due to the writers not caring.
One possible explanation for the change in plotting could have to do with the availability of David Henesy, who went to live with his dad during this period. Tad is in Boston through much of 1840 though he was originally to have been a major character.
But the many MANY unanswered questions leave much open to speculation by fans, and over the years I've seen some intriguing theories on how the original events may have played out and how revised events might connect to the present.
SPOILERS for 1897: (cuz not all our visitors may have seen 1897 and that subject is, you know, off topic for this thread [ghost_wink])
For example, why did the ghosts of Gerard and Daphne start haunting the house in 1970?? Why not any other time? At least in 1897, Quentin's ghost was "released" by the kids discovering his room and doing various things for him. With Gerard's ghost, they just basically showed up one day and started making the playroom appear, with apparently no external cause. The only even half-reason is that Hallie had shown up, making the pair Tad & Carrie together again, but it still seems like Gerard's ghost should have had power and been able to cause trouble without the kids
It wasn't so much Quentin's release from the room that kick started his haunting because he was already communicating with the "children" before they found the room. I believe that what started his haunting was Amy's arrival, same as for Hallie.
Whoever heard of a ghost possessing another ghost (since apparently Gerard's ghost was actually Judah's ghost)??
Whoever heard of a linen closet changing into a much larger playroom and back again? It makes no sense in the physical world, but I think the idea of a ghost room is endlessly fascinating.
When Gerard's body died, I don't see why Judah's ghost would remain with him-- it seems like the his soul would just return to the Head or something.
The head was destroyed when Gerard was shot, leaving Judah with nowhere else to go. But why the ghost resembles Gerard and not Judah is anybody's guess. Though that Storm sneer is great. [ghost_happy]
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I always thought in pre-1897 that Quentin's ghost was roused by Amy picking up the old telephone and talking to him. I figured Quentin had always been waiting on the phone, and when someone finally made contact with him he was able to possess them and gain power. No such reasonable explanation can be made about how Gerard and Daphne "established" themselves at Collinwood.
Yes, the head was destroyed when Gerard died, but why?? It just spontaneously combusted after Gerard was shot ... Once again, what was so special about that particular gunshot that released someone from a possession which would otherwise have lasted at least 130 years after his death? I think they definately needed a more reasonable way of killing Judah Zachary and subsequetly averting the disaster in the future.
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But Neilsen, by it's own admission, does not include TIVO viewers who might save the show for a weekend marathon.
I don't know about daytime shows because I've never seen that specifically stated, but DVR viewing has been measured for primetime since January of 2006 (though the numbers come out separately) and is factored in so long as shows are viewed within 7 days of their actual airing. (Some primetime shows even tout their online viewing.)
One possible explanation for the change in plotting could have to do with the availability of David Henesy, who went to live with his dad during this period. Tad is in Boston through much of 1840 though he was originally to have been a major character.
Very true. There are several topics on the forum that discuss how the unavailability of David Henesy necessitated that the writers make last minute changes to what they had originally planned for Tad in 1840, And such last minute changes happen all the time on all the soaps. Writers can plan ahead all they want - but when real life intervenes, there's not much to do but rework the story with what you've still got available to you.
As much as some may complain about the reworking between 1970 and 1840, though, that pales in comparison to the reworking between 1967 and 1795. And in that case the fact that Joshua made up his own history can certainly explain away the written accounts, but it most certainly doesn't explain away Barnabas' version of events. But as I was saying just the other day, soaps rewrite their history all the time. It's not usually as blatant as it was between 1967 and 1795 because the rewriting usually takes place years after the fact - but it's a tried and true practice.
(Of course, another tried and true soap practice is eventually having enemies fall in love, which relates directly to Barnabas' declaration of love for Angelique. But we've discussed that soap practice at length in a few different topics on the forum, so I won't go into it again here. No doubt a search should bring those topics up. [ghost_wink])
It wasn't so much Quentin's release from the room that kick started his haunting because he was already communicating with the "children" before they found the room. I believe that what started his haunting was Amy's arrival, same as for Hallie.
Exactly.
I think the idea of a ghost room is endlessly fascinating.
Yes, that was one of the more inventive parts of the Summer of '70.
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I always thought in pre-1897 that Quentin's ghost was roused by Amy picking up the old telephone and talking to him. I figured Quentin had always been waiting on the phone, and when someone finally made contact with him he was able to possess them and gain power.
<insert joke here about long waits on hold for technical support> [ghost_wink]
Seriously, I'm remembering that Quentin would only speak to Amy at first and I think he even hung up on David.
No such reasonable explanation can be made about how Gerard and Daphne "established" themselves at Collinwood.
IF they both died there (their magically movable headstones indicated they both died in 1841), wouldn't that be a reason for their spirits to be established in the house?
Yes, the head was destroyed when Gerard died, but why?? It just spontaneously combusted after Gerard was shot ... Once again, what was so special about that particular gunshot that released someone from a possession which would otherwise have lasted at least 130 years after his death?
Charles Dawson told Judah that he was vulnerable while in possession of Gerard's body, which I assume meant that he could die along with him. (I'm guessing you're being sarcastic when you ask if the gun is enchanted, but I don't think the gunshot made a difference because Leticia also knew he could die and tried to stab him with a knife.)
I still don't feel it's necessarily a bad thing that the explanation for the possession not ending n the unchanged timeline is left to speculation. Maybe Gerard originally committed suicide? Maybe in time, Judah found a way to keep a firmer hold on the body he was possessing? Anybody?
I think they definately needed a more reasonable way of killing Judah Zachary and subsequetly averting the disaster in the future.
I hear you, GB. I wonder if it would've made a bit more sense if Quentin had forgiven his former friend before others (including Gerard) declared that the possession had ended, but that's me.
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"History is always being rewritten."-- Barnabas Collins
I always took for granted that Barnabas made Roxanne a vampire, in either time line. Maybe 1840 Barnabas had a brief stint out of the box thanks to Angelique on one of her yearly visits, in 1840, 1841, 1842...? I imagine she was tempted every single time. Ang certainly would have been around each anniversary, but probably would not have cursed Roxanne directly, since she'd have no apparent reason to, but who knows?
As I notice more and more holes and problems in all the storylines, 1840's errors seem less important. 1968 was a grab-bag of whatever they could think of thrown together, with rules going out the window, so compared to that, 1840 seems grounded and reasonable. 1840 feels much more like conscientious, solid, serious DS than 1968 does, to me, despite many flaws.
There's no logical reason in particular for ghosts to look like their former bodies. But they do, so I'd guess that after living for awhile as Gerard master of Collinwood, that's Judah's body-- so that's what Judah's ghost looks like. The body at the time of death may determine what image the ghost has. (The question for me is, what happens to the soul of the real Gerard?)
Another possibility is that ghosts can choose their appearance, and Judah was just as dead-set on being master of Collinwood in death as he was in life, and that means being Gerard. Gerard has a scarier glower than Judah too.
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I made mention on another thread dealing with this subject my speculation of what happened in unchanged 1840/41 history. After Gerard/Judah offed Quentin (by whatever means), he sought to solidify his total control and ownership of Collinwood, but Tad remained a problem being the heir to the family fortune. When Gerard/Judah tried to deal with him, not only did Tad resist, but so did Daphne, and Carrie decided to get into the tussle, too. Gerard/Judah takes them to Rose Cottage for a final confrontation but all four are killed there (possibly by a fire that breaks out) during a battle royale. With Tad dead, the inheritance of Collinwood passes to one of Gabriel's and Edith's children (Edith, of course, was not killed in the unchanged history but then maybe neither Gabriel, so who knows). Anyway, that's just how I viewed things as "originally" happening.
Gerard
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In addition to what I said above, I guess my primary problem with the 1840 story is that the writers simply did not care to explain why anything happened.
For example, why did the ghosts of Gerard and Daphne start haunting the house in 1970?? Why not any other time? At least in 1897, Quentin's ghost was "released" by the kids discovering his room and doing various things for him. With Gerard's ghost, they just basically showed up one day and started making the playroom appear, with apparently no external cause. The only even half-reason is that Hallie had shown up, making the pair Tad & Carrie together again, but it still seems like Gerard's ghost should have had power and been able to cause trouble without the kids (especially considering how unimportant they ended up being).
I mentioned it before about the ghost of both Gerard and Quentin inside Collinwood. Both of them had to know
about each other, except Quentin was trapped in the West Wing, and how many times was Angelique killed and
always came back? How can we all know that she was gone for good after the 1840 storyline?
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And don't forget the widows as well as Josette's spook. Bill Malloy's geist even popped in for a visit. Did they all know that each of them were there? Did they acknowledge each other? Take notice? Play poker once in awhile? Have an office Christmas party?
Gerard
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If you read about and believe in the paranormal, you'll find that in some cases where more than one ghost haunts a location, sometimes they don't seem aware of each other at all.
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I doubt that ghosts exist entirely in the place they're haunting. I tend to think of most of the spirit existing in some other reality. Quentin's "place" may not overlap with Gerard's "place".
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If you read about and believe in the paranormal, you'll find that in some cases where more than one ghost haunts a location, sometimes they don't seem aware of each other at all.
I have watched ghost stories on TV like The Discovery Channel, The History Channel and The Travel Channel and
I have books on ghost stories. I have read stories where a house is haunted by three or four different ghosts and
the stories goes one of them is the strongest and controls the other ghosts.
That is reason why I have wondered about the ghost of Quentin, Gerard and Josette in Collinwood at the same
time.
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the reason i say i'm surprised that this storyline ranked so highly in a poll isn't just so much because i don't think it's particularly good(which i don't)but also because during my time on this board it's often maligned for it's "sloppiness" and "inconsistency".more than any other storyline besides 'leviathans' it's the subject of much criticism.
the fact that it ranked so highly alongside 1795 and 1897 and at the expense of all 'present day' storylines makes me wonder if perhaps some fans simply enjoy the time travel storylines as a rule.that the theatricality of the storylines set in the past makes them preferable to those set in the 'present' just on priciple.
i enjoy the time travel storylines but to me those characters aren't "real" in the same way the present time characters are because i know they are in effect "temporary" and that most of them will probably end up getting killed-off when the story makes it's inevitable return to the present(i guess the exception would be the 1840 storylines because the show ends with them.)
i always think of the 1967 episodes(laura,the introduction of barnabas,the introduction of julia)as being the show's high point and it surprises me that those episodes wouldn't top anyone's list of favorite stories.
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Unfortunately I can't see the intro of Barnabas properly, because I have the edited-highlights MPI tapes, mostly, and I must be missing a lot. I noticed that they managed to cut out every single mention of Willie draining cows!
Coherence and consistency in the "facts" of a storyline matter, but they aren't the most important thing, not to me anyway. Preferring the time-travel storylines isn't as arbitrary as you might think. I much prefer them because of atmosphere, visuals, most everything about them. Everything seems to matter more. I like the use and delivery of language in them.
There's 1967 (B&W) of course, and I've never seen 1966 and that may be great, but after that I don't think the stories in the "present" are that good. I'm sorry that I can't think of solid reasons right now. Anyway, I've never liked the times I've lived in and wanted escape from them somehow.
As for the past characters seeming less "real", I know what you mean, but with each passing year the past characters seem more and more real to me, and the "present" ones less and less real. I think PT undermined the reality of characters more than anything else. Anyway, the fact that characters could and would (some anyway) die makes their storyline more potent to me. They now seem more real to me, specifically for that reason.
The "present" characters are often oblivious to what's really going on, and don't take much of a direct part in the action. This makes them "cargo" to me, and not real characters. By that I mean that they just exist to be put in danger and saved, whether individually or as part of that "Collins family" that heaven and earth must be moved in order to save. The Collins family is collectively a great big (and often uninteresting) damsel-in-distress. First Vicki was reduced to that in late 1795, then the whole Collins family in 1968.
Whenever I get to see 1966, I expect to have a moment where I realize, oh THIS is why these characters were really created....
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the reason i say i'm surprised that this storyline ranked so highly in a poll isn't just so much because i don't think it's particularly good(which i don't)but also because during my time on this board it's often maligned for it's "sloppiness" and "inconsistency".more than any other storyline besides 'leviathans' it's the subject of much criticism.
If I was going by some of the opinions on this forum, I might wonder how 1840 made it to the top too. [ghost_wink] However, this is just one forum with one set of often times very vocal members. And make no mistake - we love an opinionated group - mostly because it makes discussion so much more interesting. But as someone who's been on the Internet for close to 15 years and taken part in several online boards over that time, I can say that 1840 is not nearly as disliked/criticized in general fandom (and that also includes offline fandom, of which I've been a part for 20 years, and through which I've had the pleasure of reading many a fanzine) as it would appear to be here. The what might even be termed a mostly love-fest for 1840 started soon after the MPI VHS tapes began being released in '93, it continued through its first Sci-Fi showing in '95 (when I was very active on other boards), and it continues with many of us to this day. [wink2]
Another point I'd like to make is that in general the Internet tends to be a place where far more people criticize than praise. It's just human nature to expend more energy giving voice to what irks you about the world than what suits you just fine, much less to extend actual praise. That's the prime reason that whenever a new fan mentions that they have never seen a particular DS storyline and don't know if they even want to based on what they might have read of other fans' online opinions, I always try to make a point to advise that they should definitely watch it for themselves and make up their own minds. More often the not, the new fans tend to be pleasantly surprised - and that even extends to being pleasantly surprised about Leviathans, which has a lot more going for it than one might suspect if the only reference one has to it are the online postings to DS boards. [b003]
Quite honestly, one time a few years back when Midnite and I were batting around different ideas for the forum, which also happened to coincide with a rather dark period here when all everyone seemed to be doing was posting about everything they disliked about DS, I suggested that maybe we should announce a one month moratorium on criticizing the show and only post during that one month about what we all love about DS. But we quickly dropped that idea because, based on the mood of the posters at the time, we seriously wondered if barely anyone at all might have posted during the moratorium. [ghost_sad] [ghost_wink] Thankfully, though, more often than not opinions tend to be fairly balanced around here. [thumbleft] And it's nice to see some of the members who enjoy 1840 coming forward.
the fact that it ranked so highly alongside 1795 and 1897 and at the expense of all 'present day' storylines makes me wonder if perhaps some fans simply enjoy the time travel storylines as a rule.that the theatricality of the storylines set in the past makes them preferable to those set in the 'present' just on priciple.
I don't know if it's on principle, but I've definitely noticed that the period storylines, for whatever reason, do tend to top a lot of fans' lists as their favorites. In that respect, the results of the Brandies voting didn't surprise me at all. And interestingly...
i always think of the 1967 episodes(laura,the introduction of barnabas,the introduction of julia)as being the show's high point and it surprises me that those episodes wouldn't top anyone's list of favorite stories.
...it wasn't just the period storylines that ranked higher than most of the present day storylines because, while the introduction of Barnabas came in 4th in the first round of voting, 1970PT came in 5th - ahead of all the other RT present day storylines...
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Boards have their own personalities. Two different boards will have different overall opinions. Also there seem to be trends or fashions in fandoms. For a few years someone or some storyline will be a whipping boy for awhile, then things will shift over a few years so that he/it is very much in favor, and vice-versa. Some opinions probably become prevalent because of sheer repetition.
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Magnus Trask, MB, and Midnite - among others - have provided good (and convincing) explanations for many of the criticisms of the 1840 storyline. Too me, 1840 was the most complex and therefore one of the most compelling and challenging storylines.
Complaints about loose ends, inconsistencies, or lack of explanation are par for the course for the entire series, so I don't see why some commentators single them out for the 1840 storyline. Perhaps there are more unexplained events in 1840, but if so, these just intrigued me further. In fact, I've said in the past that I think the DS writers consciously left loose ends and ambiguities, which I think is one of the distinctive aspects of DS as a whole that give it texture and interest (not to mention longevity). I'm not one who needs everything spelled out or wrapped up in a neat package.
A few years back I ranked all of the storylines, and although that's a somewhat artificial exercise, I chose 1840 as my favorite, followed by 1775 and 1897. Despite this, the introduction of Barnabas is also a favorite, as is ... well, I could go on and on. If I remember correctly, 1971 PT was my least favorite, but there are aspects I'm passionate about in every storyline and things I find to dislike in each of them too.
Here's a list of some of my favorite things that come to mind about 1840. I won't be able to elaborate on them now. However, a few days ago, before I saw this post, I came across a printout of a commentary I made on the 1840 storyline a few years ago, which includes some aspects not mentioned above. I hope to retype and post that soon.
Like others, I loved the stairway through time. I hope to make a post soon about parallel universes and our lives that may exist in them according to the theories of a reputable physicist at Stanford.
A few things I liked about 1840:
Ben
Gabriel
Desmond
Flora (elsewhere I've argued that she must have been born Flora Magruder)
Gerard
Tad & Carrie
Rose Cottage
Flora Collin's house
The complexity of the puzzle beginning with the Summer of 1970
- Vlad
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Perhaps there are more unexplained events in 1840, but if so, these just intrigued me further. In fact, I've said in the past that I think the DS writers consciously left loose ends and ambiguities, which I think is one of the distinctive aspects of DS as a whole that give it texture and interest (not to mention longevity). I'm not one who needs everything spelled out or wrapped up in a neat package.
(1897 spoiler below)
I've been coming to think this way in the past few years, partly because of posts on this board, I think. It's hard at first not to see the show's point of view as being what protagonists say onscreen-- but when you remember that real life situations aren't spelled out verbally by real people experiencing them (who are often all clueless as to the meaning of what's happening), this helps one to see DS differently. I think it was something someone said about Quentin's reaction to seeing Carl's body in front of Barnabas, that got me thinking this way-- the idea that Quentin wasn't free to speak honestly about it in front of the relative he now had an extra reason to fear.... and he can't discuss it with other people either.
If Q was going to voice his real attitude for the sake of the viewers (and exposition), he'd have to have talked to himself when no one else was around, which would have been silly. So we have to put the pieces together ourselves, and that's good training for watching DS and for life in general.
I don't mind loose ends or ambiguity so much, but outright contradiction of established facts I do mind, as with Edith at the end of 1840. Still, I've whittled down those to three or four items, and that's not so much more than in other eras.
I'm fuzzy on the whole Java Queen business. Was there any connection between this ship and the one Q and Gerard were on? If this was just some ship Ivan Miller was on many years before sailing with Quentin1, why did it crash right at the Collins estate? When was that crash? Did Quentin have any connection to that ship at all?
I'm thinking it was extreme foresight on Ivan's part, storing away some proto-zombies for the right moment he foresaw many years later, when he could try to take over the estate. ???
I'd appreciate someone pitching in to help explain this.... I know we can just throw up our hands and say it's 1840 so it won't make sense, period.... but I've already satisfied myself on some points I thought would never make sense. I'd like to see how far we can get.
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Is it possible that the Java Queen just crashed at a random spot which happened to be the Collins estate, resulting in the deaths of the crew except for Ivan/Gerard, who met Quentin #1 for the first time during this incident?