DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '07 II => Topic started by: buzz on October 12, 2007, 06:58:07 PM
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I'm new to these boards but a long time DS fan. I've been looking for something to read about the show that wasn't totally uncritical and have found a goldmine with Luciaphil's columns. They are iluminating, thought provoking and laugh out loud funny at times (and I love the discussions on the fashions as well). I don't agree with all your opinions on the show, but that's good.
I have been reading many of the posts on my way home from work and do agree on so many things. the absolute agony of watching Roger Davis, the fatal combination of Davis and Addison Powell (as an actor he was much better doing voicce overs), the brilliance of Thayer David and the inanities of some of the stories. When DS was good, it was very good, when it was bad it was painful.
I'n currently watching the Daphne/Gerard/Playroom period and find it very hard to continue. Besides the storyline being repetitive there is the pure stupidity of David, who should have learned from the lasyt time he was possesed! "Don't tell the adults!" Good God! This kid really needs help! Go play house with Hallie! Is this kid maladjusted? At least he could go out to a ball game once in a while or have a collection of Marvel Comics in his room. And, as I believe you noted, Quentin can't find a girlfriend and has to be obsessed over a ghost? Ignoring what Barnabas and Julia told him about the future? Wow! And Carolyn with the Astrologer/Jeb lookalike. She can't pivk a stable guy, can she. I think she should phone Buzz, compared to everyone else, he was about the best boyfriend she ever had!
I do think I'm going to take a break from this storyline for a while. Does it get any better like, quickly? Please, let me know. I'm tempted to watch the Pre-Barnabus episodes since I haven't see them all and can get the first 2 dvd's from NetFlix. Should I?
Thanks again for your brilliant commentary and I hope there is more to come. I grew up with DS in the 1960s and have enjoyed watching it again in the mid-1980s when it appeared first on NBC in New York and then on New Jersey Network. I've attended a few conventions many years ago and was partiucularly impressed with Jonathan Frid, who turned out to be a very pleasant individual with a great sense of humor. Despite the faults of the show, his presence, as well as the acting of people like Thayer David, Louis Edmonds, Lara Parker and many others, combined with the sets and the writing (when it was sharp) was unique.
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Hi buzz, welcome. I'm a huge fan of Luciaphil and her column as well. Unfortunately, she abandoned the column a year ago (no doubt due to very legitimate real-life responsibilities) and hasn't been able to resume. She wrote some hysterically funny fan fiction as well--I remember a number involving Julia and Roger that still make me giggle. And a fascinating novella, The Education of Judith Collins, with a marvelously fleshed-out portrait of Grandma-mamma Edith.
You might want to check out a thread on this Current Talk board called something like "So, I'm finally doing 1840." I think you might want to take a break and go back and watch the 1966 shows and then come back and finish watching the last year of the series. It does get somewhat better once they go to 1840 but it is still a mixed bag. I gave my views on the remainder in that thread.
Hope you continue to enjoy Dark Shadows! Keep in touch.
Best wishes,
Gothick
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Welcome, buzz! I completely agree with you about Luciaphil's columns, and wish I could locate more of her stories. She even inspired me to give EF Benson a second chance. (Still didn't like his stuff. Oh, well.)
I'm in disagreement with you, however, on the Daphne/Gerard/Playroom period, which I've been watching lately. The story is in some ways a repetition of the Quentin's ghost story, but there are interesting differences. David and Hallie do try to tell the grown-ups what is going on, and their attempts are inventive. Right now the Watching Project (to which I naturally hope you'll contribute!) is doing the 1795 storyline, and Ben Stokes's occasional attempts to tell somebody about Angelique are not as creative as David's and Hallie's attempts to escape their fate. Quentin is hard to understand during the Playroom period, but David Selby is good at conveying Quentin's feeling of mysterious powerlessness, so I can pretty much accept it. And I don't understand what Carolyn saw in Jeb, but people do make odd choices when it comes to love, and Carolyn is reasonably quick to accept that the Jeb lookalike is not Jeb.
If you've been reading the posts here, then you'll have seen lots of people saying, "I didn't like such-and-such a storyline before, but when I watched it again, I did like it." So maybe next time you watch the Playroom period you'll change your mind about it.
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Hi Gothick and Lydia,
Thanks for the replies. I would like to say that while the playroom episodes do have their differences (and I certainly like the IDEA of the playroom, the setting and the music they came up with), one of the problems is that David went down this road before and never even references it to either Hallie or himself. I know this is the writers fault but I think it hurts the concept here. Iit would have been more inteersting to have seen David struggling with these forces which he really should be terriified by since his last encounter with Quentin.
DS rarely refrences past storylines and I was pleasantly surprised in the parellel time story where Julia mentions Adam and his life force in regards to Roxanne. I wish they would have done this more often.
The episodes I'm watching (1079-1081) seem very repetitious, with the ghost of Daphne appearing every episode and little happening. I think the problem was that there needed to be other events going on at this point and other characters appearing. The focus on the children and the non-speaking ghosts went on a little too long, in my estimation.
I'm still reading much on this forum, including some of the discussions on this period. I've also been enjoying the Robservations as well.
As far as I can tell, this is THE best place for serious, critical and fun commentary on DS.
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Ah! Another Buzz! Welcome, welcome! Is your name really Buzz or are you just a fan of the leather-clad one! [hall2_cool]
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As far as I can tell, this is THE best place for serious, critical and fun commentary on DS.
It is indeed. Welcome to the fold, buzz.
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I would like to say that while the playroom episodes do have their differences (and I certainly like the IDEA of the playroom, the setting and the music they came up with), one of the problems is that David went down this road before and never even references it to either Hallie or himself. I know this is the writers fault but I think it hurts the concept here. Iit would have been more inteersting to have seen David struggling with these forces which he really should be terriified by since his last encounter with Quentin.
I don't fault the writers on this; they've got to assume that a large percentage of the viewers in late summer of 1970 were not watching the show in early 1969 when Quentin's ghost was giving trouble. The mention in passing of Adam was pretty simple to do because Adam wasn't around, but to mention Quentin's ghost they would have to go through some exposition on why the Quentin we're seeing now is the same Quentin but not a ghost, and why he doesn't remember being a ghost. More trouble than it's worth, perhaps.
It's reasonable that David isn't initially terrified by the 1970 ghosts. Bad ghosts were the exception rather than the rule in his experience of ghosts. When he first came to Collinwood, he found the ghosts more congenial than he found the live people. When David realizes that these 1970 ghosts are bad, he does struggle against them. It may be that the reason he never mentions Quentin's ghost to Hallie is that he doesn't want to scare the perpetually-scared Hallie even more.
Of course I'm arguing from two different starting points here: A) the writers can't talk about Quentin's ghost because 1969 is too long ago, but B) 1966 and 1967 are still relevant. But point A is external, concerning the viewers, and point B is internal to David, so I think both are admissible.
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Ah! Another Buzz! Welcome, welcome! Is your name really Buzz or are you just a fan of the leather-clad one! [hall2_cool]
Hi BuzzH,
I didn't mean to steal you monicker, I noticed it after I used mine. Are there room for two Buzzzes here? No, my real name is Nick but I always got a kick out of Buzz and love the Buzz-isms. Buzz always seemed to be a (excuse the expression) square peg in the DS universe, although I think it would have been funny to have had a Buzz/Barnabas meeting (which I don't think ever happened).
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It's reasonable that David isn't initially terrified by the 1970 ghosts. Bad ghosts were the exception rather than the rule in his experience of ghosts. When he first came to Collinwood, he found the ghosts more congenial than he found the live people. When David realizes that these 1970 ghosts are bad, he does struggle against them. It may be that the reason he never mentions Quentin's ghost to Hallie is that he doesn't want to scare the perpetually-scared Hallie even more.
Of course I'm arguing from two different starting points here: A) the writers can't talk about Quentin's ghost because 1969 is too long ago, but B) 1966 and 1967 are still relevant. But point A is external, concerning the viewers, and point B is internal to David, so I think both are admissible.
Lydia,
You make some good points, although I still feel long time viewers were cheated by the lack of any continuity. A little exposition would have helped to clarify matters. Considering what David went through before, he may have been able to spare Hallie if he told her the truth and got her out of that house, but then we would have had no story, would we?
I've been getting my DS DVD's from NetFlix lately (highly recommended) and will go through another 10 episodes to see if they hold my attention; if not, its back to 1966, the beginning...
Nick
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I also enjoyed some Victoria Winters reference during the late summer 1970 storyline.
SPOILERS!!!
Barnabas, quizzing David, who is now possessed by Tad Collins & trying to kept that a secret, is asked (by Barnabas) who his governess was prior to Maggie Evans.
After Daphne is restored to life, David finds a trunk filled with Vicki Winters' clothes & gives them to Daphne to wear.
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i too was struck by the references here to the long forgotten miss winters(or as hallie called her a "victoria something").in this same scene i believe barnabas also questions david about his mother,the never mentioned laura,who after her storyline is over is never refered to by name again.
in general d.s. has an odd tendency to never refer to major characters after they depart(burke devlin anyone?).i was similarly surprised during the leviathan episodes when they mentioned sam evans and jason mcguire.i really appreciate those rare nods to continuity.
speaking of daphne...and vicki...sometimes during 1840 i'm struck by how much at first glance the two characters resemble each other(they both wore similarly fall-assisted hairdos)especially from behind.if alexandra moltke had returned to the series in 1970 i wonder if she would have been cast as daphne?
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i was similarly surprised during the leviathan episodes when they mentioned sam evans and jason mcguire.i really appreciate those rare nods to continuity.
I don't recall the Sam Evans reference but I suspect Jason was mentioned because of the return of Paul Stoddard (and I am the only one who was totally freaked when Paul was revealed to be same actor who played Jason, Dennis Patrick!) It just did not work for me.
Nick
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I didn't mean to steal you monicker
Not at all, not at all! I'm thrilled there's another Buzz fan on here, we are a rare breed! [hall2_cool]
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I'm thrilled there's another Buzz fan on here, we are a rare breed! [hall2_cool]
Buzz was a real character and livened things up on DS for a while. If you think about it, he was also one of the more sincere characters. One of my favorite scenes is with him and Jason, where Jason tries to bribe Buzz and he was having none of it. He really "dug" Carolyn. If Liz only would have know of Carolyns later choices in boyfriends, she might have been elated over Buzz! With Buzz, what you saw was what you got!
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i was similarly surprised during the leviathan episodes when they mentioned sam evans and jason mcguire.i really appreciate those rare nods to continuity.
I don't recall the Sam Evans reference but I suspect Jason was mentioned because of the return of Paul Stoddard
Actually, I think Sam Evans was mentioned during the Leviathan storyline. In one of the early episodes, Maggie Evans returned to the Evans cottage - she was cleaning the place up for new tenants - Maggie was renting the place out now. (By the way, this scene would feature the last apperance of the Evans cottage.) While Maggie was working, Paul Stoddard arrived (at this point, the viewers didn't know that this man was Paul Stoddard), looking for Sam Evans. Maggie, of course, told Paul the sad news about her father's death. When Maggie asked who her visitor was, the scene faded out...
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Now I recall the scene. Thanks for refreshing my memory, Markyboo!
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one of the problems is that David went down this road before and never even references it to either Hallie or himself. I know this is the writers fault but I think it hurts the concept here. Iit would have been more inteersting to have seen David struggling with these forces which he really should be terriified by since his last encounter with Quentin.
Welcome, Buzz! [hall2_smiley]
As far as David mentioning Quentin, Spoiler: since Barnabas went to 1897 and changed Quentin's history, he didn't die, therefore he couldn't be a ghost, and David and Amy would never have experienced a haunting from him. So those events in David's world never occurred. Only we the viewers remember it.
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As far as David mentioning Quentin, Spoiler: since Barnabas went to 1897 and changed Quentin's history, he didn't die, therefore he couldn't be a ghost, and David and Amy would never have experienced a haunting from him. So those events in David's world never occurred. Only we the viewers remember it.
I recall Amy seeing "Grant Douglas" and thinking he was Quentin.
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I recall Amy seeing "Grant Douglas" and thinking he was Quentin.
So Angelique's antics in 1795 created a parallel time band, but Barnabas's antics in 1897 didn't. Is there some sort of cosmic threshold or criterion for the creation of new time bands?
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I recall Amy seeing "Grant Douglas" and thinking he was Quentin.
Indeed, this always bugged the crap outta me too! It would have been way more interesting, IMHO anyway, to have Amy meet "Grant" and be like, "Oh, hello, nice to meet you Mr. Douglas" w/no fear. Just my two pesos! [hall_grin]
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they do a few very annoyingly inconsistent things with quentin in 1970...
several people(besides barnabas and julia)do remember the quentin hauntings even though the changed history means he never died.
in one scene shortly after barnabas returns to the present(from 1897)liz comes over and thanks him for whatever he did to rid collinwood of the ghosts and tells him how glad the family is to be back home...meaning that the haunting did take place and the family had in fact moved out of collinwood.
shortly after david spies julia talking to "grant" and immediately equates him with quentin.he's under the leviathan influence at the time and for reasons i can't recall decides to scare amy with grant...and when she sees him she too thinks it's quentin.
then,in a maddening lack of continuity,just a few months later during the gerard hauntings david and quentin carry on as if they had been best friends for years and quentin even remarks about how david had been wanting to borrow his camera(or something of the sort)for "over a year".
the writing for quentin in the present is very,very sloppy and inconsistent.because he had become such a "teen idol" apparently they thought they didn't need to write a plausible storyline for him and the show's adolescent audience would neither notice nor care.
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the writing for quentin in the present is very,very sloppy and inconsistent.because he had become such a "teen idol" apparently they thought they didn't need to write a plausible storyline for him and the show's adolescent audience would neither notice nor care.
Oddly enough, with the infamous exception of the lady who wrote into Afternoon TV that Quentin would have been better off going down with the Titanic than mooning over Amanda for more than 70 years, the adult audience didn't seem to complain either. Apparently a testament to Selby's idol status with several generations. [wink2]
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i have no doubt that quentin...then as now...had no shortage of adult admirers.
but sometimes i do think the writers took storyline shortcuts that they thought kids(as opposed to more discerning adults)wouldn't pick up or care about.this is one of those instances.
i have my own peculiar quirks with the show.vampires and witches i don't question...but mundane things like episode-to-episode plot continuity and well thought out character placement matter big time. [hall2_tongue]
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but sometimes i do think the writers took storyline shortcuts that they thought kids(as opposed to more discerning adults)wouldn't pick up or care about.this is one of those instances.
Perhaps. Though the writers were well aware that DS had appeal far beyond its teen audience. Article after article published at the time DS was originally on would quickly point out the show's wide demographic (as opposed to many of today's articles which seem to focus on its teen appeal). So, if they did intentionally ignore the show's adult audience, they wouldn't have exactly been being smart.
Sadly, perhaps the real truth lies in the fact that DC didn't believe any segment of the audience was particularly smart. [hall2_rolleyes] And the writers were often forced to write the show the way DC wanted it or risk losing their jobs...
i have my own peculiar quirks with the show.vampires and witches i don't question...but mundane things like episode-to-episode plot continuity and well thought out character placement matter big time. [hall2_tongue]
Oh, I totally agree. Have you ever read any of my missives about how absurd it was that Philip could have even been held in custody, much less potentially tried and convicted without one shred of actual evidence connecting him to the murders Jeb committed save from Philip's confession, which any lawyer, even a completely inept one on a par with Peter Bradford, could have had thrown out in an instant? [b003]
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I think it comes back to that same story about going outside and asking the fans about some detail that the writers had forgotten. I don't think they ever tried to look up old scripts and see what had actually occurred, but just kept writing for the moment. Also, as a virtually live, every day show, they probably didn't think that all the past details would matter. Who could have envisioned it being preserved and watched over and over all these years later.
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As far as David mentioning Quentin, Spoiler: since Barnabas went to 1897 and changed Quentin's history, he didn't die, therefore he couldn't be a ghost, and David and Amy would never have experienced a haunting from him. So those events in David's world never occurred. Only we the viewers remember it.
Good point, although as others have noted, the writers were usually loose with continuity. The viewers however are aware of the repetition in plot, which, IMO, didn't work as well the second time around. A number of ideas were good in this storyline, but the silent ghosts and wining kids (especially Hallie) were getting on my nerves after a while. The episodes leading to 1840 are moving awful slowly for me, the only high point so far was Stokes appearing and questioning Sebastian Shaw, who seemed to want to help, at least until Julia insulted him before he even had a chance to speak to the kids.