DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '02 I => Topic started by: Cassandra on May 04, 2002, 10:24:08 AM
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Im not sure if this one has been done before, so I thought I'd give it a try. We've all seen certain characters during the course of the show whose personalities have done a complete about face. Some started out good, only to turn evil later on, and others who started out mean, greedy or just plain evil, then suddenly change to being good. Can anyone name who these characters were and the circumstances surrounding them?
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SPOILER........
Two obvious characters changing from evil to good are Angelique and Jeb Hawks. Angelique, the compulsive and jealous witch of 1795, did a total turnabout lifting the Vampire curse from Barnabas and putting herself at risk by saving Quentin and Desmond from execution in 1840RT. Jeb Hawkes' love for Carolyn Stoddard changed his evil Leviathan ways.
An example of going in the opposite dirction from good to evil is Nathan Forbes. His plain greed brought about the change.There is also Gerard Stiles (another good to evil character) due to possession by Judah Zachery. However the best example in this category was the Jekel/Hyde
character Cyrus Longworth/John Yaeger. Here was the wish to experiment and uncover a dark side of ones personality.
Is this what you want Cassandra? I tried to keep it short because you could write volumes as an answer.
I'll leave some of the details for the other posters...... ;)
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Excellent answers, VAM!
POSSIBLE SPOILERS. . .
Barnabas underwent the greatest change. From a vampire filled with revenge and evil, he morphed into an anti-hero who traveled through time to save the Collins family--even while constantly dealing with his own demons and on-again, off-again vampire status.
Quentin, too, changed from a terrifying, evil ghost into a friend and saviour of the family, and helped Barnabas and Julia thwart the Leviathans.
Willie Loomis was nothing but a two-bit hood until he was taken under Barnabas' (bat) wing. He was still crazy, of course, but he did become a good guy as the story wore on. I still recall, wistfully, Willie telling Julia that he was engaged to a gal named Roxanne, saying that they probably thought no one could love old Willie. He was so happy!
Love, Robin
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SPOILER........
Two obvious characters changing from evil to good are Angelique and Jeb Hawks. Angelique, the compulsive and jealous witch of 1795, did a total turnabout lifting the Vampire curse from Barnabas and putting herself at risk by saving Quentin and Desmond from execution in 1840RT. Jeb Hawkes' love for Carolyn Stoddard changed his evil Leviathan ways.
An example of going in the opposite dirction from good to evil is Nathan Forbes. His plain greed brought about the change.There is also Gerard Stiles (another good to evil character) due to possession by Judah Zachery. However the best example in this category was the Jekel/Hyde
character Cyrus Longworth/John Yaeger. Here was the wish to experiment and uncover a dark side of ones personality.
Is this what you want Cassandra? I tried to keep it short because you could write volumes as an answer.
I'll leave some of the details for the other posters...... ;)
Absoluteley Vam!! You answered it wonderfully! Great answers. Thanks!! :)
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Burke Devlin made quite a transformation. He started out as bitter and revenge-driven, bent on destroying the Collins family by any means necessary, and eventually became the good-guy boyfriend of Vicki.
Unfortunately, this transformation was accompanied by a change in actors which also made the character much more boring. I think if Mitch Ryan had remained in the role, Burke, while being a good guy, still would have retained a bit of an edge.
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I'm too late for the most obvious ones. I always thought Quentin's was an amazing transformation, AND the way it was handled, you could actually believe it. Quite an accomplishment.
What about Roger and David? Roger never made a complete turnaround, but he certainly didn't remain a villain. And David actually became a regular bratty kid, instead of the spawn of Satan as he started off.
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. And David actually became a regular bratty kid, instead of the spawn of Satan as he started off.
LOL!! That was cute Kuanyin!! :)
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I also didn't care too much for Mrs.Johnson's character in the beginning. She started out being a spy for Burke Devlin and only took the Maid's job at Collinwood just to spy on the family and give information to Burke. Later on, she became like one of the family, a wonderful devoted woman who loved the Collins' family like one of her own. ;)
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I also didn't care too much for Mrs.Johnson's character in the beginning. She started out being a spy for Burke Devlin and only took the Maid's job at Collinwood just to spy on the family and give information to Burke. Later on, she became like one of the family, a wonderful devoted woman who loved the Collins' family like one of her own. ;)
Welll with a son like Harry .. she had to branch out. .
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Welll with a son like Harry .. she had to branch out. .
That's rich J99 kinda makes you wonder what the daughter was like!Poor MrsJ!
jennifer
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Being a Willie fan, I think he changed as well. He started out as a two-bit criminal looking for the fastest fix to his money problems but turned into a kind, caring character always on the look-out for Maggie and Vicki so they wouldn't get mixed-up in any of Barnabas' schemes. Most of Collinsport thought of him as drifter, shiftless, and a bounder but he really had a heart and a soul to save the Collins family from one of their own.
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This may not be the answer you're looking for, but . . .
Maggie Evans started out quite differently than she ended up. Orginally thought to be a no-nonsense, advice giving coffee pourer at the local coffee shop at the Inn - KLS wrote that director Lela Swift saw the character as a "young Eve Arden." I was suprised in the early episodes to learn it was Maggie who initiated the relationship with Joe. Even while he was still entangled with Carolyn Maggie coyly suggested to him that he find another girlfriend - then went about making herself available!
Unfortunately, Maggie disintigrated into a weak victim type. Of course, being bitten and kidnapped by a vampire can bring down the strongest of women, but considering she was hypnotized to forget the ordeal - more than once - I would have expected her to regain some of her "snap." She never did. By the time she left town she was positively insane, rambling, incoherent and without a clue. Truly sad. :'(
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I also didn't care too much for Mrs.Johnson's character in the beginning. She started out being a spy for Burke Devlin and only took the Maid's job at Collinwood just to spy on the family and give information to Burke. Later on, she became like one of the family, a wonderful devoted woman who loved the Collins' family like one of her own. ;)
It's only been during this current run on Sci Fi that I finally got to see the early, pre-Barnabas episodes. It was a real eye-opener seeing how Mrs. Johnson started out! There was a lot more "Abigail" in her than I ever knew! I thought she was hysterical - one of the real bright spots of this early story line.
I was also surprised at how much I disliked Carolyn in the beginning. She, too, had a lot of her 1795 counterpart Millicent in her - really dingy and ditzy. I did not enjoy EarlyCarolyn.
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SPOILER........
There is also Gerard Stiles (another good to evil character) due to possession by Judah Zachery.
I might question this one, VAM. Gerard Stiles wasn't exactly what you'd call a "good" or "nice" man even before he became possessed by Judah Zachary. Remember, he also used an alias and was involved in pirating! The "Nancy Barrett" character in that storyline charitably referred to him as a "hustler" or some such (I know that wasn't the term used, but something like that) but claimed he wasn't evil. Even that characterization of him is somewhat questionable, though, IMO.
My vote for one of the most dramatically changed (and least believably changed) characters is the servant Beth in 1897. Her switch from sympathetic, caring maid to handmaiden of the dastardly Count Petofi was hard to swallow. I suspect it had less to do with her intrinsic character and more to do with the decision to extend the 1987 storyline (too much so, IMO).
:)
Great topic, Cassandra! I, too, am glad that some of the characters changed for the better (such as Mrs. Johnson and Carolyn), as you mention.
And even that a good, pure, innocent character, Rachel Drummond, remained true to her character (a very Dickensian character, much criticized on this forum, but that's another story ... though I'll just mention that I think it was KLS's most successful character other than Maggie).
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Vlad ascribed:
I might question this one, VAM. Gerard Stiles wasn't exactly what you'd call a "good" or "nice" man even before he became possessed by Judah Zachary. Remember, he also used an alias and was involved in pirating! The "Nancy Barrett" character in that storyline charitably referred to him as a "hustler" or some such (I know that wasn't the term used, but something like that) but claimed he wasn't evil.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE That was Leticia!!! Leticia Faye, and she married Desmond!!!! YAAAAAAY! Actually I just ordered that tape!! *bounces excitedly* Daphne and Leticia and Leticia and Daphne ........ *walks off mumbling happily to herself*
*~*
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I might question this one, VAM. Gerard Stiles wasn't exactly what you'd call a "good" or "nice" man even before he became possessed by Judah Zachary. Remember, he also used an alias and was involved in pirating! The "Nancy Barrett" character in that storyline charitably referred to him as a "hustler" or some such (I know that wasn't the term used, but something like that) but claimed he wasn't evil. Even that characterization of him is somewhat questionable, though, IMO.
And even that a good, pure, innocent character, Rachel Drummond, remained true to her character (a very Dickensian character, much criticized on this forum, but that's another story ... though I'll just mention that I think it was KLS's most successful character other than Maggie).
Vlad,
With regards to Gerard, he did befriend Quentin and the Collins family in the beginning. Correct?
However, I do agree with you about the TLATKLS's Rachel Drummond. The criticism of the character may be due to a lack of understanding on the part of the individual(s).
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And even that a good, pure, innocent character, Rachel Drummond, remained true to her character (a very Dickensian character, much criticized on this forum, but that's another story ... though I'll just mention that I think it was KLS's most successful character other than Maggie).
I'm curious, Vlad. Could you elaborate on why you think she was a successful character?
I'm one of the critics--I always thought she was really very thinly drawn on the part of the writers.
Luciaphil
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With regards to Gerard, he did befriend Quentin and the Collins family in the beginning. Correct?
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I think Gerard's motives were always questionable. His relationship with Samantha seemed to be more about the wealth he would achieve and less about any real feeling for her--that and the desire to have what Quentin had.
I would say he had more in common with Judah Zachary than not.
As for other character transformations, I dunno. Some of them like Cyrus/John Y--well, the "qualities" of John Y were probably quite present in Cyrus (who couldn't be a more stereotypical serial killer type if he tried) all along.
Others mellowed out (Roger, David, Burke) and others well, the demands of the plot "changed them".
Luciaphil
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Vlad,
With regards to Gerard, he did befriend Quentin and the Collins family in the beginning. Correct?
Under rather suspect circumstances, yes. It appeared from the beginning that he had his eye on Samantha the moment he arrived at Collinwood. And the circumstances surrounding the supposed deaths at sea of Quentin and his son (sorry, I can't remember all these names the way others on this board do!) were also suspect.
As I said, the best that was said about him was that he was a 'hustler," (I know that isn't the term, but I can't think of it offhand) -- and that was by a good friend and associate (whose name I can't remember name offhand either -- the Nancy Barrett character).
The fact that he was involved in illegal shipping activities -- pirating -- under a different name (Captain someone) tells you something about his character.
However, I do agree with you about the TLATKLS's Rachel Drummond. The criticism of the character may be due to a lack of understanding on the part of the individual(s).
Yes, Rachel Drummond was a classically Victorian character, basically an example of the Victorian ideal woman -- chaste, pure, innocent, naive. KLS's performance was exactly on target.
Luciaphil asked:
I'm curious, Vlad. Could you elaborate on why you think she was a successful character?
I'm one of the critics--I always thought she was really very thinly drawn on the part of the writers.
In the context of my comments, I meant that this was one character who remained true to type -- i.e., Rachel Drummond did not have a ridiculous turnaround as a Handmaiden of Count Petofi.
I also said (or meant) that I thought this was one of KLS's best performances, aside from Maggie. Much better than her Josette du Pres -- she had much more of a period feel for this character, e.g. her posture and manner; and IMO her acting presented the character perfectly, without some of the infelicities that cropped up in her later performance as Lady Hampshire.
I grant that Rachel Drummond may not be as complex a character as the other two (i.e., Josette and Kitty), so maybe the simplicity of the character ("innocence") was easier for her to play, I don't know. But I found her more believable in the role and well-suited to the period.
-Vlad
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Under rather suspect circumstances, yes. It appeared from the beginning that he had his eye on Samantha the moment he arrived at Collinwood. And the circumstances surrounding the supposed deaths at sea of Quentin and his son (sorry, I can't remember all these names the way others on this board do!) were also suspect.
As I said, the best that was said about him was that he was a 'hustler," (I know that isn't the term, but I can't think of it offhand) -- and that was by a good friend and associate (whose name I can't remember name offhand either -- the Nancy Barrett character).
The fact that he was involved in illegal shipping activities -- pirating -- under a different name (Captain someone) tells you something about his character.
-Vlad
Yes, I see your point. He went from somewhat shady to outright evil. Also, we should remember there was repentance in the end ;)...So I am not sure how Gerard would be classified...
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My vote for one of the most dramatically changed (and least believably changed) characters is the servant Beth in 1897. Her switch from sympathetic, caring maid to handmaiden of the dastardly Count Petofi was hard to swallow. I suspect it had less to do with her intrinsic character and more to do with the decision to extend the 1987 storyline (too much so, IMO).
:)
Great topic, Cassandra! I, too, am glad that some of the characters changed for the better (such as Mrs. Johnson and Carolyn), as you mention.
SPOILER........SPOILER........SPOILER.......SPOILER.........
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Thanks Vlad! Glad you enjoyed it! Although I do feel I have to disagree alittle when it comes to your comment concerning Beth. Yes, she did seem to change somewhat, but I really didn't see this as her being true to herself. I honestly felt that the only real reason she was with Count Petofi was because she was on the "rebound" from Quentin. You could see she was only acting out of pain & sorrow for what he did to her. She just didn't seem "truly evil" to me. And in the end, she reverted back to her old self when she saw what Petofi was doing to Quentin. :)
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I know this sounds a little strange because she began and ended as a witch, but I honestly think Angelique has a kind of personal metamorphosis not long after arriving at Collinwood. No doubt some of her traits were just dormant due to her love for him and would have eventually come out in their relationship anyway. Still, she did seem like a much different witch when she thought she could convince Barnabas that he really loved her and not Josette. Once she knew she couldn't she set the flame on high and didn't back down. [burn]
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Yes, I see your point. He went from somewhat shady to outright evil. Also, we should remember there was repentance in the end ;)...So I am not sure how Gerard would be classified...
In a way Gerard Styles is a very tragic character: as you say, he starts out as Quentin's friend, then becomes a shady opportunist, and "regresses" to someone truly evil but only while possessed by Judah Zachary. In the end he finds redemption of sorts, but only as he dies, asking Quentin's forgiveness. You almost feel sorry for the guy. Unlike Lt. Forbes, who goes from dashing man about town to unrepentant snake in the grass, Gerard therefore seems to me a far more sympathetic and complex character.
Maybe you can classify Gerard as an instance of a character that changes more than once - four times, to be precise, if you assume that he started out as being Quentin's good friend.
Can anyone else think of other characters who suffered through a personality change more than once? Right now, all I can think of are Barnabas and Cyrus Longworth. Oh, and Carolyn, too, just recently.
[wavey]
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In a way Gerard Styles is a very tragic character: as you say, he starts out as Quentin's friend, then becomes a shady opportunist, and "regresses" to someone truly evil but only while possessed by Judah Zachary.
. . .
Maybe you can classify Gerard as an instance of a character that changes more than once - four times, to be precise, if you assume that he started out as being Quentin's good friend.
I think it's questionable whether Gerard Stiles was ever really "Quentin's good friend."
The Nancy Barrett character who knew him from way back said that the Gerard she knew was "an opportunist," but not a murderer (or whatever). (Your use of "opportunist" was the exact word Nancy Barrett used to describe him, Happybat :) .) However, even she may not have known about his other identity as Capt. Ivan Millar, a pirate, long before he met Quentin. I would tend to suspect the motives of such a ruthless and unprincipled character as that, especially when he's befriending someone from as prominent and wealthy a family as Quentin Collins!
-Vlad
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Under rather suspect circumstances, yes. It appeared from the beginning that he had his eye on Samantha the moment he arrived at Collinwood. And the circumstances surrounding the supposed deaths at sea of Quentin and his son (sorry, I can't remember all these names the way others on this board do!) were also suspect.
As I said, the best that was said about him was that he was a 'hustler," (I know that isn't the term, but I can't think of it offhand) -- and that was by a good friend and associate (whose name I can't remember name offhand either -- the Nancy Barrett character).
The fact that he was involved in illegal shipping activities -- pirating -- under a different name (Captain someone) tells you something about his character.
Yes, Rachel Drummond was a classically Victorian character, basically an example of the Victorian ideal woman -- chaste, pure, innocent, naive. KLS's performance was exactly on target.
Luciaphil asked:
In the context of my comments, I meant that this was one character who remained true to type -- i.e., Rachel Drummond did not have a ridiculous turnaround as a Handmaiden of Count Petofi.
I also said (or meant) that I thought this was one of KLS's best performances, aside from Maggie. Much better than her Josette du Pres -- she had much more of a period feel for this character, e.g. her posture and manner; and IMO her acting presented the character perfectly, without some of the infelicities that cropped up in her later performance as Lady Hampshire.
I grant that Rachel Drummond may not be as complex a character as the other two (i.e., Josette and Kitty), so maybe the simplicity of the character ("innocence") was easier for her to play, I don't know. But I found her more believable in the role and well-suited to the period.
-Vlad
I'm with you on Rachel Vlad she was true to the period
and i see her as more likable than the other woman of 1897 such as Amanda,Jenny Charity and a few others I felt sadwhen she died and was moved byTim's reaction
to her death.
jennifer
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I think it's questionable whether Gerard Stiles was ever really "Quentin's good friend."
However, even she may not have known about his other identity as Capt. Ivan Millar, a pirate, long before he met Quentin. I would tend to suspect the motives of such a ruthless and unprincipled character as that, especially when he's befriending someone from as prominent and wealthy a family as Quentin Collins!
-Vlad
You're probably right, Vlad. To tell you the truth, I don't recall Gerard's other life as a pirate - hardly someone you could call anyone's "good friend"! So, unless Gerard had started his adult life as an essentially good person who was corrupted, if you will, perhaps he really just went from bad to horrible. I am also reminded now of how evil his ghost seemed - of course, so did Quentin's!
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I like your avatar's caption, Happybat!
Nƒ¤kemiin!
:)