DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '07 I => Topic started by: Alondra on February 07, 2007, 09:12:32 PM
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Something MB said on another thread made me think of this. There were several characters whose personalities changed or seemed to change within a storyline or over the course of the show. They started one way and changed either for the better or for the worse. Maybe it was due to some event that the change occurs. Others we know stay pretty much the same, either good or bad. But I can think of quite a few who made some kind of drastic change in their personality.
1) Barnabas of course, he began as [spoiler]that rotten vampire who only thought of himself and eventually becomes a kind caring person, and it's not just when he was human, when he reverts he continues to be the kind caring Barnabas we can appreciate.[/spoiler]
2) Quentin who begins immature and through the course of the 1897 storyline matures through the terrible events that befall him, some of which are his own fault like [spoiler]the werewolf curse[/spoiler]
3) Willie Loomis who was a belligerent obnoxious creep and becomes a loving caring man by benefit of [spoiler]a vampire's bite[/spoiler]
Who else can you think of? Elaborate a bit more on these or come up with others.
Alondra
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Julia-started out a cold fish, became warm and caring.
Roger-started out an insufferable bore and bully-mellowed considerably by the end.
Vickie-started out smart-in the end had no clue.
Maggie-started out a gum snappin' Eve Arden wannabe-ended up a victim/ingenue.
Carolyn-started out a spoiled, selfish, little rich girl-ended up being a very mature young woman.
David-started out as Damien from The Omen-ended up being a pretty nice, albeit weird, kid.
Jeb-started out a Cheap Insufferable Pig-ended up being a pretty decent guy.
Joshua-started out a cold, controlling, emotionless Vulcan-ended up showing he truly loved/cared about his family.
That's all I can think of right now. ;)
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Hey, Vulcans are nice. I like Vulcans. If Joshua lost all the contempt and scorn and self-worship, he might have been a bit more Vulcan. Joshua was emotional as hell, it was just the crappier emotions.
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Adam-started out an innocent, fully-grown babe in the woods, then started to learn more words and more about the world (under the wisdom of Professor Stokes), he was on his way to becoming a fully decent, honest human being and then what happens..... [spoiler]BAM!!! Nicholas Blair is what happened, taught Adam all the wrong things, that it was okay to lie, cheat, even kill to get what he wants, and Adam turns into a mean, threatening, violent bully who when he doesn't get what he wants right away or something goes wrong, kidnaps and tries to murder an innocent woman (Vicki), and even almost strangled Carolyn, the woman he fell in love with, at one point.[/spoiler]
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I think what happened to Adam was such a shame. I wish he had remained under the influence of the Professor and even Barnabas and Julia who [spoiler]though they created him didn't have a clue about how to teach him. Why weren't they teaching him how to speak? When they left him with Willie, Willie could have taught him how to speak as well. Instead it was a huge mess and all he did was grunt for the longest time. If they had, Barnabas, being his "father" could have taught him so much. It was the Professor and Sam Evans who had the first real influence on Adam, but once Nicholas entered the picture Adam was ruined. I only hope that in the end when he was back with the Professor, that he was able to put Nicholas' influence behind him and become a good person again.[/spoiler]
Alondra
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Nathan Forbes--started out as a seemingly all right chap but turned into a grade A number one a-hole.
Joe Haskell--started out a smart and all around nice guy, turned into Angelique's lap dog and a grade A insano.
Count Petofi--started out as Victor Finn-Gibbon, friend of the family, turned into that less-one-hand manipulative old grouch.
Angelique--started out vengeful and kniving, turned into the "love" of Barnabas' life and a decent gal upon removing his curse.
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Julia-started out a cold fish, became warm and caring.
Roger-started out an insufferable bore and bully-mellowed considerably by the end.
Vickie-started out smart-in the end had no clue.
Maggie-started out a gum snappin' Eve Arden wannabe-ended up a victim/ingenue.
Carolyn-started out a spoiled, selfish, little rich girl-ended up being a very mature young woman.
David-started out as Damien from The Omen-ended up being a pretty nice, albeit weird, kid.
Jeb-started out a Cheap Insufferable Pig-ended up being a pretty decent guy.
Joshua-started out a cold, controlling, emotionless Vulcan-ended up showing he truly loved/cared about his family.
That's all I can think of right now. ;)
These are great as are the others. Having fun just reading everyone's picks. I'll have to think about this more.
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Daphne started out as an Angry ghost, then change to being nicer
Megan started out nice, and wanting to help her husband. Then she became a Vampire who revelled in Killing.
Paul Stoddard started out selfish and left his daughter. Then tried to protect her.
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Count Petofi--started out as Victor Finn-Gibbon, friend of the family, turned into that less-one-hand manipulative old grouch.
I think Victor Fenn-Gibbon however ya spell it, since he was Count Petofi already had his plan in mind [spoiler]to get his hand back. He was being nice to Edward and others at Collinwood (he could turn on the charm when he wanted to!) but then he kissed Jamison and possessed him. So they were really the same person.[/spoiler]
Alondra
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Was the hand there before Petofi arrived? I can't remember why Petofi even showed up at Collinwood in the first place.
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Was the hand there before Petofi arrived? I can't remember why Petofi even showed up at Collinwood in the first place.
[spoiler]Yes, Magda brought the hand back from Boston. She had stolen it from King Johnny. She wanted to use it to cure Quentin but it didn't work. He transformed into the werewolf and was caught. The next morning he became himself in the prison but his face was distorted. Later he tried to get the hand from Evan who had custody of it at that time. That's when Aristede showed up to take it from Quentin. I think it was around this time that Victor had come to Collinsport and stayed at Collinwood for a while, using as his entrance that he had been a friend of Gerald Soames who had also been a friend of Edward's. So Edward allowed him to stay at Collinwood. That's when we learn he and Aristede are working together. How he learned that the hand was in Collinsport I don't know.[/spoiler]
Alondra
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Jeb-started out a Cheap Insufferable Pig-ended up being a pretty decent guy.
He was still a cheap, insufferable pig - but because any power that he might have possessed was gone near the end, he had no choice but to go around with his tail between his legs. The love of a good woman (or man) might be a calming influence in some, but I always find it very hard to imagine anyone who's that much of a relentless killing machine could supposedly turn into anything resembling a decent guy overnight - removal of his supernatural powers or otherwise. But maybe that's just me. ;)
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Right you are Alonda! Petofi did come there with his plan already in mind, but I was thinking more of an audience perspective. From that frame of mind, Petofi did change, albeit very quickly, from being Mr. Nicey-Nice to Mr. Meany-Mean.
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He was still a cheap, insufferable pig - but because any power that he might have possessed was gone near the end, he had no choice but to go around with his tail between his legs.
Sounds difficult. Aren't the tails of pigs curly? I imagine him reaching down between his legs to make sure the tail is in place, while meanwhile everybody around him politely averts their eyes.
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Mr. Meany-Mean.
And as Mr. Meany-Mean, he was a joy to behold! [thumb]
I imagine him reaching down between his legs to make sure the tail is in place, while meanwhile everybody around him politely averts their eyes.
[lghy]
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He was still a cheap, insufferable pig - but because any power that he might have possessed was gone near the end, he had no choice but to go around with his tail between his legs. The love of a good woman (or man) might be a calming influence in some, but I always find it very hard to imagine anyone who's that much of a relentless killing machine could supposedly turn into anything resembling a decent guy overnight - removal of his supernatural powers or otherwise. But maybe that's just me. ;)
I think one thing on the show that seems to repeat over and over is that if someone is gonna change they do it too fast. That makes it hard for us to believe it or accept it. Like the oft mentioned scene were [spoiler]Barnabas suddenly decides he loves Angelique, she is the only woman he's ever loved yada yada yada. In order for this to be at all believable they should have had a lot of time in which she changed and very important, that she honestly repented for all her evil deeds. She never did this. Therefore his abrupt change of heart is very hard to accept.[/spoiler]
In the case of Willie his change was abrupt and we know why, but others don't. That's why everyone still distrusted him and still wanted him out of town. Even after 4 years, some still distrusted him!
Alondra
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[spoiler]Barnabas suddenly decides he loves Angelique, she is the only woman he's ever loved yada yada yada. In order for this to be at all believable they should have had a lot of time in which she changed and very important, that she honestly repented for all her evil deeds. She never did this. Therefore his abrupt change of heart is very hard to accept.[/spoiler]
Actually, they did lay a foundation for this prior to Barn's declaration. (Perhaps not as much as some audience members might have liked - but it IS there.) I pointed out a few of the scenes while I was watching 1840/41 last year to compile the slideshows. Those posts can probably be found fairly easily by using the forum's Search feature. ;)
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No one's mentioned Gerard yet. While we know he was a bit of a schemer when we first encounter him, he changed completely when [spoiler]he became possessed by Judah Zachery. It was then he set up Quentin to be tried for witchcraft and set his sights on possessing all of the Collinses' wealth and possessions.[/spoiler]
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The character who I thought changed - too radically - was Beth in 1897, when she went to work for Count Petofi. I didn't find that change believable, although others have rationalized it.
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The character who I thought changed - too radically - was Beth in 1897, when she went to work for Count Petofi. I didn't find that change believable, although others have rationalized it.
Huh? [confused5] I don't remember Beth working for Petofi. Was that just to spy on others? Can anyone explain this? This inquiring mind wants to know. :)
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In regards to Beth [spoiler]she was very much hurt and angry at Quentin when she found out he was going to marry Angelique. Petofi stopped her from shooting him. Wanting to put Quentin behind her, she decided to work for Petofi.
Though obviously her heart really wasn't in it when she realized Petofi was plotting against Quentin (not realizing he was planning to steal Quentin's body). As badly as Quentin hurt Beth, we see she never really stopped loving him as she ran out of the mill and runs to his side at Collinwood, hoping to save him.[/spoiler]
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No one's mentioned Gerard yet. While we know he was a bit of a schemer when we first encounter him, he changed completely when [spoiler]he became possessed by Judah Zachery. It was then he set up Quentin to be tried for witchcraft and set his sights on possessing all of the Collinses' wealth and possessions.[/spoiler]
To tell you the truth, I don't think Gerard changed that much. [spoiler]Yes he became more evil as Judah, more consummate evil, but as Gerard he did attempt to get everything Quentin had. He married Samantha, not loving her, for the money. He wanted the easy life of living at Collinwood. I don't blame him for that much but to marry a woman for her money renders him a creep in my book, not any better than Nathan Forbes or Jason McGuire. Also there is speculation that he may have pushed Quentin overboard, and Tad as well. There isn't much said about that accident on the ship but that's a possibility. He had also lied about his identity, his real name was Ivan Miller and IIRC Gabriel had a long list of his deeds (not unlike when Burke showed up with a long list of the nefarious deeds of one Jason McGuire)[/spoiler]
Alondra
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Slightly OT, but it's driving me nuts! What does IIRC stand for? :-
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Slightly OT, but it's driving me nuts! What does IIRC stand for? :-
If I remember (or recall) correctly
Alondra :)
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To tell you the truth, I don't think Gerard changed that much. [spoiler]Yes he became more evil as Judah, more consummate evil, but as Gerard he did attempt to get everything Quentin had. He married Samantha, not loving her, for the money. He wanted the easy life of living at Collinwood. I don't blame him for that much but to marry a woman for her money renders him a creep in my book, not any better than Nathan Forbes or Jason McGuire. Also there is speculation that he may have pushed Quentin overboard, and Tad as well. There isn't much said about that accident on the ship but that's a possibility. He had also lied about his identity, his real name was Ivan Miller and IIRC Gabriel had a long list of his deeds (not unlike when Burke showed up with a long list of the nefarious deeds of one Jason McGuire)[/spoiler]
Most of what you mentioned happened [spoiler]after his possession by Judah.[/spoiler] However, you're right about the accident on the ship. That was most definitely implied.
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[spoiler]He married Samantha before his possession. And whatever he did as Ivan Miller were before his possession.[/spoiler]
Alondra
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Gee, mental pause on my part -- LOL. Thanks for refreshing my memory.
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Another thought occurred to me [spoiler]I think maybe Judah chose Gerard to possess because his personality wasn't that much unlike Judah's. That way it would be a long time before people began to suspect that Gerard was possessed and not just being himself. Of course he was smooth and lied very well, and believably. Otherwise Quentin wouldn't have believed in him for so long. But IMO 1840 Quentin was a bit on the naive side.[/spoiler]
Alondra
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Thanks Alondra, I thought I was 'up' on all the 'net slang. ;)
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IMO 1840 Quentin was a bit on the naive side.
Oh boy, is that ever the truth, especially compared to 1897 Quentin! ;) He's a completely different Quentin.
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Yeah, the 1897 Quentin would have smelled Gerard a mile away!
Also I think 1970 PT Quentin was a bit naive when it came to his "sister-in-law." Of course he had no idea [spoiler]she was really his dead wife back from the grave, but boy he never seemed to pick up on even the slightest clue "Alexis" was not quite who she seemed to be. He believed everything she told him, and thus made it oh so easy for her to manipulate him into believing Maggie was the witch.[/spoiler]
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Also I think 1970 PT Quentin was a bit naive when it came to his "sister-in-law." Of course he had no idea [spoiler]she was really his dead wife back from the grave, but boy he never seemed to pick up on even the slightest clue "Alexis" was not quite who she seemed to be. He believed everything she told him, and thus made it oh so easy for her to manipulate him into believing Maggie was the witch.[/spoiler]
Excellent point!
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What does IIRC stand for?
Just a reminder:
Online Shorthand Expressions List
The Testing board (like the Preview feature) is our friend. ;)
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Yeah, the 1897 Quentin would have smelled Gerard a mile away!
That's right. Look at how long it took him [spoiler]to trust Barnabas. It seems that even after he and Barnabas had learned each others' secrets he still took a while to truly trust him.[/spoiler]
Also I think 1970 PT Quentin was a bit naive when it came to his "sister-in-law." Of course he had no idea [spoiler]she was really his dead wife back from the grave, but boy he never seemed to pick up on even the slightest clue "Alexis" was not quite who she seemed to be. He believed everything she told him, and thus made it oh so easy for her to manipulate him into believing Maggie was the witch.[/spoiler]
That frustrated me no end. [spoiler]First he did suspect while she was still Alexis. Then at the exact time Angelique took Alexis' place, he had finally decided she WAS Alexis! And it wasn't until the very last when Angelique was finally destroyed and Barnabas told him she had really been Angelique that he realized the truth. He and Maggie were both badly manipulated by Angelique.[/spoiler]
Alondra
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Another character who changed drastically - due more to a change in the writers' concept of her than to character development, IMO, though one could argue that there was a natural change in her attitudes over time - was Mrs. Johnson. Remember at the beginning of the series, she had nothing but dislike for the Collins family and their high-and-mighty ways. She went to work at Collinwood in order to spy on the family - especially Roger - for Burke Devlin - or at least he convinced her to use her position at Collinwood to help him plot his revenge against Roger.
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Another character who changed drastically - due more to a change in the writers' concept of her than to character development, IMO, though one could argue that there was a natural change in her attitudes over time - was Mrs. Johnson. Remember at the beginning of the series, she had nothing but dislike for the Collins family and their high-and-mighty ways. She went to work at Collinwood in order to spy on the family - especially Roger - for Burke Devlin - or at least he convinced her to use her position at Collinwood to help him plot his revenge against Roger.
Very true Vlad. But I for one am glad that DC or the writers, whoever it was, decided to change her character into the devoted Mrs. J we all know and love. She, along w/Buzz, was my favorite secondary DS character. She just cracked me up! :D
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Yes, I agree, Buzz. Mrs. Johnson morphing into a loyal servant and friend was great, and her concern for David was so touching. It was a smart move to do that with her since Clarice Blackburn was such an accomplished stage actress. Utilizing her was definitely a good thing.
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But did Mrs. Johnson's personality change? I agree that:
one could argue that there was a natural change in her attitudes over time
but wasn't she the same picky, outspoken, narrow-minded, and amusing woman in 1970 as she was in 1966? It's true that her relationship with the family went from adversarial to that of a devoted employee, but when when we first met her she was just as fiercely devoted to Bill Malloy. Unfortunately, we didn't see much of the character post-1897 (only appearing a handful of times, and half of those were in 1995) anyway.
I think we have to discount older Carolyn's story about Mrs. J brushing her hair when she was a child as the ramblings of someone who doesn't have a firm grasp of reality.
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But did Mrs. Johnson's personality change? I agree that:
one could argue that there was a natural change in her attitudes over time
but wasn't she the same picky, outspoken, narrow-minded, and amusing woman in 1970 as she was in 1966? It's true that her relationship with the family went from adversarial to that of a devoted employee, but when when we first met her she was just as fiercely devoted to Bill Malloy. Unfortunately, we didn't see much of the character post-1897 (only appearing a handful of times, and half of those were in 1995) anyway.
I think we have to discount older Carolyn's story about Mrs. J brushing her hair when she was a child as the ramblings of someone who doesn't have a firm grasp of reality.
I think she did mellow over time. When we first met her, she was almost nasty and hell-bent on revenge. Also, there was that scene in the diner where [spoiler]Maggie served her a roast beef sandwich and Mrs. J. kept complaining about the mayonnaise, bragging how she'd always made her own, and even going so far as to smell the sandwich![/spoiler] As time went on, she lost that crabbiness, although one certainly couldn't accuse her of being Mrs. Sweetness and Light -- LOL.
As for Carolyn's musings as a madwoman, it's possible she referred to herself as a child having her hair brushed by Mrs. J. simply because she was no longer that wild teenager we first encounter during the early days of the show, which is when Mrs. J. came into the picture.