DARK SHADOWS FORUMS

General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '07 I => Topic started by: MagnusTrask on February 06, 2007, 10:01:13 AM

Title: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 06, 2007, 10:01:13 AM: Someone, please set me straight on this, if it's possible. We know of many events in Angelique's life... but what order did they happen in, from her perspective? I suppose she was born somewhere, somehow, but I'm not even sure if [spoiler]her death in 1840 is the last event in her life.

Birth... Massachussetts?
Judah's trial
Martinique (including her childhood, according to Natalie!)
Collinsport 1795

Here's where I have no clue.

Death in 1795
Ghost
Physical vacating of grave
Ressurrection by Blair... when?
Cassandra in 1968
Vampelique in 1968
Follows Barnabas to 1897??? (I just realized I still don't know early 1897, and so I don't know the explanation for her being there, and I don't want it spoiled. So I really shouldn't have started this thread yet, but I've done too much typing to quit now.)
Mrs. Dweeb Rumson in 1970

Then what?

And how do we fit 1840 in...? It seems to be different from the other appearances in that she just lived in a boring old straight line, time-wise, from 1795 to 1840, never having been to the future, yet. All I can think is, she rose from her grave and lived physically for the next 45 years... and did Blair revive her then in 1795? Or did Blair and she meet after 1840 (the "first time around"... without Barnabas out of the box), at which point she was sent to 1968?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Brandon Collins on February 06, 2007, 05:52:21 PM: Here's what I like to think her timeline is (note the spoiler icon above):

1. Born somwhere between 1770 and 1775 in Martinique.
2. Comes to Collinsport in 1795 w/ Josette.
3. Is killed in 1795/6 by Barnabas.
4. Breaks free from hell to go to 1968 to wreak havoc.
5. Becomes a vampire in 1968 at the hands of her "brother".
6. Turns Nicholas in to Diabolis, at which point she disappears (I think)
7. Turns up in 1897.
8. Returns to underworld while her alter-ego Alexis/Angelique/Alexis is having a grand ol' time in PT.
9. Pops up in 1840 when she learns of Barnabas' arrival.
10. Dies in 1840 having lived over 100 years (figure that one out!)

Most of this is the same as yours, Magnus, except that I omitted her days as Miranda because I always thought that Miranda was a previous incarnation of Angelique, and thusly not the same person. The same SOUL, but not person. If you'd like to include it for yourself, as you have, then I don't really see any harm in it.

I think her death in 1795 returned her to the underworld with D and Nick until 1968 when she probably begged for her release again so that she could torture Barnabas, since he was being all happy about life and junk. Then when she disappeared from 1897 she returned back to the underworld to watch as Nicky was tortured or whatever.

Could be wrong. Any other thoughts?
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: adamsgirl on February 06, 2007, 06:01:26 PM: Quote from: Brandon Collins on February 06, 2007, 05:52:21 PM
I omitted her days as Miranda because I always thought that Miranda was a previous incarnation of Angelique, and thusly not the same person. The same SOUL, but not person. If you'd like to include it for yourself, as you have, then I don't really see any harm in it.

I think her death in 1795 returned her to the underworld with D and Nick until 1968 when she probably begged for her release again so that she could torture Barnabas, since he was being all happy about life and junk. Then when she disappeared from 1897 she returned back to the underworld to watch as Nicky was tortured or whatever.

I disagree about Miranda. In fact, Angelique even explains how [spoiler]after cooperating with the authorities for Judah's witchcraft trial, she fled to Martinique in the 1690s.[/spoiler]

When she appears at Collinwood as Cassandra, it's logical to assume she was there to, as you said, torture Barnabas. In fact, when speaking to Nicholas, he instructs her [spoiler]to destroy Barnabas and warns her not to fall victim to her love for him.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: BuzzH on February 06, 2007, 06:09:48 PM: The only problems I have w/your timeline is the fact that [spoiler]she has been going to the mausoleum since 1796-1840 because remember she's shocked that Barnabas is not there when she and Lazlo open the coffin. She then sends him to CW to find out if B has presented himself to the 1840 family and what story he concocted to get his foot in the door.[/spoiler]

As for Miranda, I think that perhaps she WAS Miranda but then 'died' as Miranda and was 'reborn' Angelique in Martinique.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 06, 2007, 06:24:46 PM: The previous timelines also skip a step between 1968 and 1897.

In 1968, she appeared to Liz again as Cassandra, then was delivered by her Master back to 1796 (as punishment for her activities in 1968; she told this to Barnabas), where she met up with Barnabas and begged him to stay in that time with her. She was burned by Ben and spent 100 years in hell until she was summoned through the flames by Quentin and Evan in 1897-- the reason was, in the 1897 we see play out, to deal with Barnabas. By now, she is one powerful witch.

This is an excellent topic on the subject. It contains some marvelous theories for fitting 1840, and Miranda, into the equation:

Quote from: Roland on February 27, 2005, 10:56:18 PM
Major flaw in the 1897 storyline
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 06, 2007, 06:25:38 PM: Angelique in 1840 knew nothing about events in 1968, and had not experienced them yet. Julia had to tell her they'd met in 1968... it was the future in every sense for Angelique. Angelique when we first see her in 1840 had been visiting the mausoleum every year, I think, for a number of years. I forget if it was some "anniversary" of theirs. She would look at the casket and reflect in some way, and leave, and come back next year. She appears to have been living in the world for a long time, and seems totally "of" 1840.

Angelique didn't appear in 1840 because of Barnabas's arrival, because she didn't know about that when she showed up. I forget whether it was 1840 Barnabas still who was up and about, or 1970 Barnabas in his old body, but Angelique was surprised to find he'd been unchained.

Angelique's 1840 experiences have to take place (for her) before (her) 1968. When she goes back to 1795 following Barnabas, I wondered if there were two of her at that point, one who came back from 1968, and another who had recently left her grave, and who would then live on until 1840. Yes, she dies in 1840, but that's the kind of time-line rewriting they did over and over, without thinking of the consequences. Somehow Angelique's 1968 (and therefore 1897 too... in that order?) experiences must come after 1840 for her.

Could Blair and Ang had their encounter after she passed through 1840?

The "first time around", in an 1840 without time-travel interference, Angelique must have arrived to find a full casket as usual, with chains, and then just gone on her way, as in previous years.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 06, 2007, 06:36:26 PM: Sorry, I think 3 people perhaps posted while I was writing mine, and I didn't have it in me to rethink and rewrite. I've been killing my eyes and brain enough this night/morning and have to stop. Anyway, I had to scan past 1897 spoilers which do matter apparently, and I guess I forgot about Ang being burned in 1796 and apparently it's a straight line from there to 1897. That's interesting. More reason to think there are two of her at that point in 1796.

Are there a number of years she's forced to pass through twice?
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: dom on February 06, 2007, 06:44:44 PM: What about Ang during Leviathans? Or did I read thru this too fast?
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 06, 2007, 06:56:09 PM: No need to apologize, MagnusTrask.

Dom, I think this is what you missed:

Quote from: MagnusTrask on February 06, 2007, 10:01:13 AM
Mrs. Dweeb Rumson in 1970

I respectfully submit a very minor adjustment-- that even though we first see Angelique Rumson in January 1970, she would have had to have gone from 1897 to some unknown point in 1969 to allow enough time for her to establish a successful modeling career, fall in love <ugh> with Sky, and play house with him for months.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 06, 2007, 06:57:07 PM: If 1897 for Ang happened between 1968 and 1970, then why did she come to 1970 at all? It wasn't for Barnabas, supposedly. That's a really strange year to pick, to begin your new life in, 1970, and Maine, of all places. I'm probably forgetting something.

They squandered several opportuntities with Ang, by having her timeline follow Barnabas's so closely, most of the time. It was more interesting seeing an Angelique in 1840 who hadn't experienced events the viewers have already seen. She should have simply lived through those centuries in a linear way, with Barnabas encountering her as a resident of 1897 and 1968.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Jackie on February 06, 2007, 07:06:27 PM: In 1840, Angelique said [spoiler]she visited Barnabas' coffin every year.[/spoiler] Where was she in 1967 when he was let out of his coffin by Willie? And in 1897, she had to be summoned therefore she wasn't free to be visiting his coffin every year. I think somewhere during all these time travel excursions, parallel time was created but we never know it.[/color]
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 06, 2007, 07:08:02 PM: Quote from: MagnusTrask
If 1897 for Ang happened between 1968 and 1970, then why did she come to 1970 at all? It wasn't for Barnabas, supposedly. That's a really strange year to pick, to begin your new life in, 1970, and Maine, of all places. I'm probably forgetting something.

You really aren't, because we're not even told how Angelique got to 1969. She may have wandered the Earth since 1897 (but without Barnabas or Quentin) or she may have time traveled to that year. We do know that she remembers being Cassandra, and that she has given up her powers and wants nothing to do with Barnabas. But a clue to her arrival may be her portrait that's on display at Rumsonwood.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Brandon Collins on February 06, 2007, 11:34:11 PM: Ok, let's recap here:

According to everything that's been posted since my last post, this should be the semi-correct (fully correct, unless I omit things which I tend to do sometimes) timeline for Angelique:

In 1690 she's known as Miranda DuVal and accuses and helps bring Judah Zachary to justice. She travels to Martinique where she dies and then is reborn as Angelique, in the same country. While living here she meets Barnabas on a seafaring trip and they fall in love for a short time, only for Barnabas to leave her for Josette and then eventually head back to the homeland. Angelique arrives at Barn's doorstep in 1795 as Josettes maid. Barnabas kills Angelique in 1796 by shooting her. She is sent back to the underworld, or hell, or Haites, whichever, but returns each year on the anniversary of her death, their marriage, or some other such occurance (I like the idea of it being her death) and visits Barnabas's gravesite to be sure he's still locked up. She realizes in 1840 that he's not, and that whole deal ensues.**

From here, she disappears once again only to resurface in 1968 as Cassandra Blair Collins, inflicting her Dream Curse on those at Collinwood. She becomes a vampire after Nicholas shows up, and eventually turns him in, returning to the underworld AGAIN to watch him burn. When Barnabas shows up in 1897, Angelique is envoked by Quentin and Evan to go up against Barnabas. We know that this comes after the events of 1968 because Angelique and Julia know each other. When Barnabas travels back to 1796 again on his way to present time, Angelique is killed by Ben Stokes. Now, this is either a doppleganger, or Angelique followed from 1897, which I prefer to believe, fully knowing that Barnabas would try to get Josette yet again.

Here's where the tricky part comes in:

Angelique shows up in 1970 as Mrs. Rumson. We know she's been there for quite some time, because, as others have mentioned, she's had sufficient time to set up a modeling career, court and fall in love with Skylar, and get married. So, there are a couple of solutions to this:

1. After she followed Barnabas back to 1796 to stop his reuniting with Josette again, she goes back to the present, but not the same present that Barnabas arrives in. No, she goes back a few months earlier than that to allow herself time to fall in love with Sky and become established. But, this doesn't make too much sense because how would she have known that she was going to meet and fall in love with Sky? Unless, and this thought just occured to me, her master became angry with her for following Barnabas back to 1796 to mess with him and Josette again, when she was most likely ordered to only to the bidding of Quentin and Evan, to complete the mission she was called there for. Not to mention that Diablois most likely had a hand in the Leviathan fiasco since Nicholas came along to be grand master flash of the whole operation.

2. When Barnabas took the travel through time route back to the present when he was captured by the Leviathans, they in fact put him into a parallel time where they had already put their plans in motion. In this time, 1968/9 PT, Angelique left Collinsport but did NOT follow Barnabas back to 1897, if he even went in this time, but rather moved on with her life and became a famous model, allowing her to find Sky and marry him.

**The thing that is confusing about 1840 is that since it's established that Angelique moved directly to this time from 1795/6, then she would remmeber everything that happened here when she arrived in 1968. Thusly, she would remember professing her love for Barnabas and releasing him from her curse just before she died (again). But, it seems that in 1968 she did not remember this because she intended to cause pain to Barnabas. Not to mention the fact that Barnabas was a vampire in 1966 when he was released, and was NOT released from Angelique's curse. The only thing that would somewhat make the whole scenario make sense would be that because 1840 Angelique didn't know that she would later show up as CBC, she also didn't know that Barnabas would be attempting to woo Vicki and Maggie, or that Julia would be lusting after him so much. So, she arrived there to screw up those plans of his being happy because, as we all know very well, if Angelique can't have Barnabas, then no one can. And she couldn't very well have him because she was dead and had been dead since 1840.

So, this is all quite confusing. It seems that there are several dopplegangers for Barnabas and Angelique out there, or that several of the worlds that Barnabas returned to when he traveled through time were actually Parallel Times, and not the time he left. The only thing that makes me wonder about that theory is that if Barnabas did in fact return to a parallel time of his time, the events would have to be so closely related that the only thing that some of the characters had to make different decisions about would be whether to pee now or later and whether to eat steak or chicken. It seems unlikely, to me anyway, that the PT thing works because 1970PT was so different from 1970RT that it would seem that any other PT universe should be significantly different than the home universe that we all know. That doesn't have to be true, of course, but it would be in keeping with the tradition of the PTs that were shown in the show.

Anyone care to sit down and work out a Barnabas timeline, with all his body switching included?
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Jackie on February 07, 2007, 05:26:16 AM: Quote from: Brandon Collins on February 06, 2007, 11:34:11 PM
Anyone care to sit down and work out a Barnabas timeline, with all his body switching included?

Nah not me! LOL

But I wonder about something. If Barnabas jumped into PT while time traveling how can Julia remember everything when she meets up with him later? Wouldn't her memory be different when Barnabas returns during the Leviathan storyline? And I'm also confused about Ben Stokes ... [spoiler]did he smoke Angelique twice, once when Barnabas went back to rescue Vicki and the second time when he followed Kitty/Josette into 1796?[/spoiler] This IS confusing. [/color]
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Brandon Collins on February 07, 2007, 05:34:46 AM: If I remember correctly, [spoiler]he smoked her TWICE. Once when Barn went back to save Vicki and then again when he was being transported by the Leviathans back to the present. And I also forgot about when Trask tied CBC to the tree in the woods in 1968, but she didn't die from that.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: dom on February 07, 2007, 05:52:25 AM: CBC?
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Lydia on February 07, 2007, 06:06:49 AM: Cassandra Blair Collins, I believe.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: dom on February 07, 2007, 06:08:56 AM: gracias :)
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 07, 2007, 08:48:50 AM: Quote from: Brandon Collins on February 06, 2007, 11:34:11 PM
Ok, let's recap here:

According to everything that's been posted since my last post, this should be the semi-correct (fully correct, unless I omit things which I tend to do sometimes) timeline for Angelique:

If I may, here's a slightly different timeline for Angelique:

1692 -- The young servant Miranda DuVal testifies against Judah Zachery.

1774 -- Angelique Bouchard is born in Martinique. There is evidence to support that she is a reincarnation of Miranda.
(Angelique and Barnabas did not fall in love, btw. He clearly fell for Josette, and it's debatable that what Angelique felt was really love.)

1795 -- The former servant to Josette becomes Angelique Bouchard Collins. She has some powers, but doesn't always have control of them.
(Barnabas did not kill her by shooting her. She survived the gunshot, only to be strangled to death by him in the coffin room. Ben buried her body in the woods.)
Now in spirit form, she appears to Ben as a disembodied head and later testifies at Vicki's trial but is able to disappear at will. For some reason that is never explained, her body disappears from the grave.
She is then banished to hell, but her spirit remains bound to her portrait.

1968 -- She arrives as Cassandra Blair, a graduate student at the University of Rockport, and marries Roger (after he takes off with her portrait, which Vicki brought to Collinwood). She eventually loses her powers, then regains them after Nicholas' destruction. She visits Elizabeth as Cassandra in a dream and again in the flesh, then is banished to 1795 (not 1897 as you wrote, at least not yet)-- at the point where her 1795 spirit was returned to hell-- as punishment for mistakes made in 1968. She is burned by Ben and returned to Hell. As time passes, her desire to return to Earth increases and she asks for Diabolos' forgiveness, and they strike a deal in which she can return with her powers intact if she can make a mortal man fall in love with her (but without the use of those powers).

1897 -- She is summoned through the fire in a black ritual. Toward the end of the 1897 storyline, she disappears.

1969 -- She becomes a successful model, meets Sky, and takes his last name.

1840 -- Angelique claims to have wandered the Earth for 40 years, and obviously has no memory of the present, but we know she was in Hell during this time. It's possible that Diabolos, displeased that she helped destroy the Leviathans, punished her once again by sending her back to 1795, but perhaps this time erased her memory (which would explain her rough treatment of Julia). This is a cold Angelique (she uses the name Valerie, btw), though she has an amazing change of heart (and her powers improve) at the end of the 1840 storyline.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: BuzzH on February 07, 2007, 03:42:03 PM: All this theorizing has given me a headache! [confused5] LOL!
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 07, 2007, 04:39:38 PM: While I'm getting ready to go out in bright sunlight (muder on me with the light sensitivity) to see if my car battery is still alive, I'm nursemaiding it, but not too well since it's been almost a day since I was out there---

Notes re Nelson...

Angelique lived in Hell (if you call that living) from 1795-1840, and that's where she comes from every year to visit mausoleum? I'll accept that.   Here's one problem for me... I'm so used to thinking Ang lived in a straight line from the beginning to the 'present' (because of my big DS tape gap, 1968 and early 1969), that I'm also used to the idea that Ang is immortal from being a witch.   Whatgood are powers if you don't live longer? Maybe she's not.

Barnabas went back to 1796 from 1968, and Ang followed him, where she was burned, but apparently the Devil can reconstitute an employee after that. This did not happen in her timeline after 1897, but before it. One of our fine moderators (flattery to make up for bad memory) said that she went from the Ben burning to 1897 and this makes sense to me.

No doppelganger is required. BC may have had to reoccupy his old body to travel in time, but the Devil has more options. Think of it as more of a Star Trek (1990s style) time travel.   While Ang is standing there in the Drawing Room in 1796 talking to 1968 Barnabas, having just come from 1968 herself, her earlier self has arisen from the grave physically and has either gone on her way and will live through 1840, or has gone to Hell, from which she will start to take field trips to the mausoleum every year.

Re Sky Dumbass... maybe she just needed to fall in love with someone, and as far as she knew, meeting SR was chance. Of course he had Blair connbections, and the whole thing may have been engineered for her benefit, but she didn't know.

Backing up in time to make it as a model and meet her weasel of a dreamboat poses no problem for me.   She could have chosen any point in time, I guess. She could have backed up to 1952 if she wanted. It's no problem at all that there was "another" Angelique during 1968. With all the bouncing around in time, that's bound to happen.

Q and Evan ordered her to 1796? If you're just suggesting that, why would they?

Was she burned in the 1795just before Leviathans?
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: adamsgirl on February 07, 2007, 05:21:43 PM: Quote from: Midnite on February 07, 2007, 08:48:50 AM
1774 -- Angelique Bouchard is born in Martinique. There is evidence to support that she is a reincarnation of Miranda.

I'm confused about the evidence you mention wherein Angelique is the reincarnation of Miranda DuVal. What evidence was that? Inquiring minds want to know -- LOL!
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 07, 2007, 05:45:57 PM: Quote from: MagnusTrask
Notes re Nelson...

Did you mean Brandon?

Quote
I'm also used to the idea that Ang is immortal from being a witch. Whatgood are powers if you don't live longer? Maybe she's not.

It's safe to assume Ang becomes immortal. [spoiler]When Ben torched her in the tower room ("Burn! Burn! Burn!") and Barnabas had her ashes scattered to the winds, it would have been curtains had she been a traditional witch. Her immortality makes it even more bizarre that she would try to strike a deal with Barnabas to remain in the past with her (with Vicki's life as her bargaining chip); um, aren't they BOTH immortal? Anyway, when we see her next in 1897 she is a muy powerful full-fledged bruja.[/spoiler]

Angelique is a work in progress. Didn't Shakespeare write, "What a piece of work is Ang!" ;) ::)

I hope all went well for you this morning.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 07, 2007, 06:11:33 PM: Quote from: adamsgirl on February 07, 2007, 05:21:43 PM
I'm confused about the evidence you mention wherein Angelique is the reincarnation of Miranda DuVal. What evidence was that?

Angelique's memories of her life as Miranda, yet references are made to her birth and childhood:
[spoiler]When Gerard called her Miranda DuVal, Valerie/Angelique recognized the name. She recalled her life as a young servant, being in Judah's coven, fearing the spell he had over her and later testifying at his trial, his vow to get revenge on the Collinses and her, and his disposition. And she is afraid he returned to make good on his threat. However, Nicholas revealed that Angelique was born in 1774, and Natalie once described her childhood in Martinique.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Brandon Collins on February 07, 2007, 07:44:38 PM: Midnite's timeline is a good one, but if you start to get into the little things, it would have some holes. Hell, any timeline would have some holes with this show :D

What I was trying to accomplish with my obnoxiously long post (:D) was to highlight some of those problems, and to create a STRAIGHT line from one point to the next, which is probably impossible given the fact that the rewrites and the bloopers the writers had in their writing created that inconsistances that we're now talking about.

So, after reading Midnite's timeline, I'm starting to think something like this happened:

1692--Ang is Miranda.

1774--Ang is born as herself.

1795--Ang comes to Collinwood.

1840--Ang returns each year to check on Barnabas, keeping him under her thumb. It's possible that when she realized he was out she somehow learned that he had come from the future, which leads us to...

1968--Ang turns up as CBC. She's sent back to...

1796-Where she is sent for punishment like Mid said. She is killed, which leads to...

1897--Where she is summoned by Quentin and Evan. She then returns to...

1796--Where she is killed again. She manages to convince Diabolis that she needs another crack at finding her mortal man, since she failed with Quentin, which sends her to...

1969-1970--Where she becomes a model and marries Sky.

Does that seem to make sense?

For some reason I'm OBSESSED with creating a straight line here. lol
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: BuzzH on February 07, 2007, 08:12:49 PM: Quote from: Brandon Collins on February 07, 2007, 07:44:38 PM
1840--Ang returns each year to check on Barnabas, keeping him under her thumb.

Slightly OT, but...I'm wondering why Angelique would come back year after year to check on ol' Barny-Boo chained in his coffin. You would think that she would consider him being chained up like that to be the easy way out for him. Remember [spoiler]she wouldn't let Ben stake him in the original 1796 because she wanted him to suffer the full affect of the curse (i.e. killing mercilously and then having the guilt of it)[/spoiler]

I would think that she'd return during the day and unchain/release him so that he would have to suffer the anguish of his curse, at least once Joshua was dead anyway as I'm sure he'd just chain his son back up. Seems to me that as soon as Joshua was dead, she'd free Barnabas from the coffin, can't imagine him being chained up was that satisfying to her.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 07, 2007, 08:35:45 PM: I guess I did mean Brandon, sorry.

I'm not sure what a straight line means... does it mean not going back and forth in time? That's not interesting.

One event's missing... Angelique's very real, mortal death in 1840 or 1841. It's this that makes it impossible to fit 1840 in anywhere except at the end of her story. We ought to have 1840 version one, and 1840 version two. Is this what you meant to avoid, Brandon? It does sort of make one's head melt a la Evan.*

We need to accept that some time periods are passed through more than once. If I could be told a way to include her 1840 death without its cancelling out 1897 and 1968, I'd be grateful. I think, though, that Cassandra had in her past an 1840 where she kept checking at the mausoleum, and kept finding BC safely chained up. That was 1840 version one. The Ang who was shot in 1841 (version two) never time-travelled. 1774-1841, RIP. And might I add, LOL.

We have already seen multiple versions of the same events, in the 1968 return to 1796. History gets rewritten.

I'm hazy now on the 1796 that we saw between 1897 and Leviathans. Was Ang killed? Burned? Did Ang there know Barnabas was from the future? If so, could it just have been that witches can know these kinds of things? Is it necessary to say she followed him there from another time, yet again? If she followed him that time too, I sure as hell wish they'd just let her be the regular old original 1795 ghost of Angelique.

*Well, mortal or not, she goes to Hell when she dies, anyway! So I guess Satan can do anything he wants with her at that point, including sending her topside yet again, if he has a hankering to....
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 07, 2007, 08:44:48 PM: Buzz... I think the entombing was a far more effective revenge than anything she had thought up for him. It doesn't sound like an easy way out of anything for me. It may be the single most horrifying thing to happen to anyone in all of DS. If she wanted him still, though, that would be a good reason for her to let him out, and that's what I wondered about.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 08, 2007, 12:07:41 AM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on February 07, 2007, 08:35:45 PM
I'm hazy now on the 1796 that we saw between 1897 and Leviathans. Was Ang killed? Burned?

She wasn't, so that stopoff in 1796 following 1897 would be an extra trip that wasn't in the story.

I agree with Magnus about 1840 most likely being her final chapter (though I'd like to think she would be able to rise again, her powers restored, after Judah's death-- just as she regained the powers Nicholas had stripped from her once he had been destroyed, but I digress).

Here's a timeline of Angelique's deaths and near-deaths, lol:

1795-- Barnabas poisons her drink but the plan fails. He shoots her, but he didn't do the "job well enough." He strangles her until she is dead.

1968-- She is aged via Sam's changes to her portrait. Trask sets fire to her, but it's temporary. His rite of exorcism, however, is successful (though Nicholas brings her back). Nicholas causes her hand to wither. She's nearly strangled by Adam. Nicky strips her of her powers, and she is again aged via the portrait. Julia intends to kill her, but Angelique soon dies as an old hag in the Old House. After she's vampirized, Joe threatens her with a letter opener.

1796-- She goes up in flames in the tower room.

1897-- Her doppelganger goes up in flames.
Aristede tries to torch her.

1969-- She merely disappears when Barnabas crosses into PT (meaning she is never again seen in the present).

1840-- Gerard/Judah removes her powers. She is arrested as a witch (though later released). We see her die as a human in Barnabas' arms.

Hmm, that's all I can think of.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 08, 2007, 12:23:42 AM: That was just a list, not chronological in her timeline, right? You don't place 1840 after 1969?

Was it still 1969 when Ang is last seen in the 'present'... I think it becomes 1970 during Leviathans. ?
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on February 08, 2007, 02:31:17 AM: Quote from: Midnite on February 08, 2007, 12:07:41 AM
I'd like to think she would be able to rise again, her powers restored

I'm certain of it.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 08, 2007, 02:35:52 AM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on February 08, 2007, 12:23:42 AM
That was just a list, not chronological in her timeline, right? You don't place 1840 after 1969?

If you're asking me, yes, it was chronological, and I do place 1840 last. But PennyDreadful and Joeytrom proposed some intriguing theories (see the topic I quoted on p. 1) that did not.

Quote
Was it still 1969 when Ang is last seen in the 'present'... I think it becomes 1970 during Leviathans. ?

You're absolutely right. She returned to the present in 1969, and Leviathans began in 1969, so I called that chapter in her history 1969, but as you said the storyline stretched into 1970. And one of her 1795 adventures may have actually occurred in 1796. Sorry. I was thinking earlier that it might be why Brandon misunderstood the number of times Angelique revisited the 18th century.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Brandon Collins on February 08, 2007, 06:52:26 AM: Magus--

What I mean by drawing a straightline through these events is that I want to put them in the best order that they can possibly be put in so that her timeline makes SENSE in terms of what we were shown in the show. Hope that helps to make it more senseful lol.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Angelique Wins on February 08, 2007, 07:35:31 AM: Well, first of all, I subscribe to the quote I once heard (and I wish I could give whoever it was credit...seems like it was a commercial...anyway...here it is)

"I think you're overthinking it." LOL!

Seriously. Trying to make sense out of something that really wasn't written to make sense COULD get you a one-way ticket to Windcliff. However, since I've written almost 900 pages about Ang and Barn in "present day" (post-end of the show), here's my theory. The only timeline I really dealt with was "how could she have been in 1840 and then came back and did the Cassie thing and then the Angie Rumson thing." It's not really a spoiler for my story, but if you want to read it from Angie's lips instead, I'll put it in a spoiler box.

[spoiler]After 1840, Angie was dead. But it didn't work for "her old master" to have her dead and LOSE all that delightful wickedness in the 1970s, so all of her memories of Barn and Julia and Company in 1840 were hidden from her. Once she passed the point where it didn't matter if she remembered or not, Judah's punishment was reinstated, removing her powers but restoring her memories were restored.[/spoiler]

Near the end of Leviathan, she and Quentin both commented that it had been a LONG TIME. Did that mean they both LIVED through the years? I have no idea. ;D

Judy
[angl]
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: adamsgirl on February 08, 2007, 04:03:15 PM: Quote from: Midnite on February 07, 2007, 06:11:33 PM
Angelique's memories of her life as Miranda, yet references are made to her birth and childhood:
[spoiler]When Gerard called her Miranda DuVal, Valerie/Angelique recognized the name. She recalled her life as a young servant, being in Judah's coven, fearing the spell he had over her and later testifying at his trial, his vow to get revenge on the Collinses and her, and his disposition. And she is afraid he returned to make good on his threat. However, Nicholas revealed that Angelique was born in 1774, and Natalie once described her childhood in Martinique.[/spoiler]

Thanks for refreshing my memory, Midnite. I had completely forgotten that.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Brandon Collins on February 08, 2007, 06:07:58 PM: You're totally right, AW! Perhaps Julia ought to show up right this second with a straight jacket, a van, and a purse full o' sedatives and haul me away. Usually I don't get so wrapped up in things like these because I KNOW that it's never going to be sorted out.

I mean, honestly, we can't say for sure that this or that happened, or how it happened. The fact is that a number of people have already answered for themselves in their own fanfiction anyway. And it's pretty unlikely that we'll ever get a canon representation of what really happened and in what order.

But you know what?! I'm throwing caution to the wind, because it sure is a helluva lotta fun to speculate.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on February 08, 2007, 06:24:26 PM: Quote from: Brandon Collins on February 08, 2007, 06:07:58 PM
I'm throwing caution to the wind, because it sure is a helluva lotta fun to speculate.

And that's exactly one of the things these boards are for. :)
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Angelique Wins on February 08, 2007, 06:32:25 PM: Quote from: Brandon Collins on February 08, 2007, 06:07:58 PM
You're totally right, AW!

Thanks for clarifying that. [beer] I know I'm right, but sometimes other people don't agree. Silly people. [chkyb]

Quote
Perhaps Julia ought to show up right this second with a straight jacket, a van, and a purse full o' sedatives and haul me away.

Nah. I don't think Julia was in the van and straightjacket part of Windcliff, but I bet she might want to show you a crystal from a chandelier and ask if you could help her find the center...either that or a great big honkin' thing that she called a medallion. Looked like a bad day at 'Arts and Crafts' to me.

Quote
Usually I don't get so wrapped up in things like these because I KNOW that it's never going to be sorted out.

I mean, honestly, we can't say for sure that this or that happened, or how it happened. The fact is that a number of people have already answered for themselves in their own fanfiction anyway. And it's pretty unlikely that we'll ever get a canon representation of what really happened and in what order.

But you know what?! I'm throwing caution to the wind, because it sure is a helluva lotta fun to speculate.

Of course it's fun. And here, I'm gonna have to insist that YOU are right. Cause it IS fun to speculate. So don't stop. It's a blast! [flmthrw] And that's the whole point of fan fic, right? Of course, right. (See, there I go again being right.)

Quote from: adamsgirl on February 08, 2007, 04:03:15 PM
Thanks for refreshing my memory, Midnite. I had completely forgotten that.

::sigh:: And here I thought you were going to wax rhapsodic about my wonderful theory, or about my stellar storyline. [sun] Fame and glory are such fickle animals, aren't they? [cool9] LOL!

Judy
[angl]
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 08, 2007, 06:45:39 PM: You'll think I'm taking things too seriously here. In response to Brandon and one or two others:

I think that once we come to DS boards and spend a significant amount of time here, the "get a life" boat has already sailed. I might have mangled a metaphor there. Anyway, we're already in fandom up to our necks, an activity that the "outside world" generally considers nuts, so we may as well relax.

I know the remarks about straight jackets etc were just tossed off in a light-hearted way, so please bear with my occasional need to respond to such things.

I think it's a precious thing, when a TV series can take us out of ourselves, and get us to want to lose ourselves in it. If real life were enough, this wouldn't happen. We've created a pretty antiseptic culture which creates a healthy urge to escape.

Society accepts any activity no matter how pointless, as long as the majority does it. Football obsession never causes anyone to say "get a life". DS is a smarter and more imaginitive "waste of time" than most. The DS story certainly connects more with human experiences, motivations, and relationships than any game.

I think a need to make sense of a story that you find compelling is more connected to life than working out pi to whatever number of digits, or any of those games Mensa groups play to test themselves or show off. Math is important-- I'mn just saying DS must be. The story is complelling... there must be reasons for that.

And now you will excuse me I'm sure, while I put on my Barnabas coat and put in my fangs, and walk around in public for awhile, beating passers-by with my wolf cane made out of a curtain rod and aluminum foil taped to the end.

This is just a slight detour from the topic. It's out of my system now.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on February 08, 2007, 07:04:34 PM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on February 08, 2007, 06:45:39 PM
This is just a slight detour from the topic. It's out of my system now.

However, you make some excellent points that can never be made too often. And I doubt many of us here would disagree with them. ;) (Though I do have to say that sometimes I actually wish my real life wasn't as active as it is so that I could get all the stuff that needs to be done around here done quicker. (After all, as I've mentioned several times, my presence on this forum is a mere ghost of a wisp compared to my counterpart [Unknown] on the SMF forum - he's now up to 172d 8h 35m on that forum and 34,907 posts - and in less than half the time this forum has been active - I feel so absent and inactive in comparison.) But the work gets done eventually...)
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Midnite on February 08, 2007, 07:19:43 PM: Bravo, MagnusTrask, for your comments about the joys of escapism! [clap]

Quote from: Angelique Wins on February 08, 2007, 07:35:31 AM
Near the end of Leviathan, she and Quentin both commented that it had been a LONG TIME. Did that mean they both LIVED through the years? I have no idea. ;D

Me neither, but it's an outstanding point. (I love that scene, btw, and I adore the spotted coat Angelique wore.) She also tells Quentin, "We're both a great deal older." The problem for me is that it still doesn't tell us if she lived through all the years between 1897 and 1969 (as Quentin did), or just some of them; all we know for sure is that she disappeared toward the end of 1897. But would she have risked pursuing a modeling career-- a very public vocation, and possibly after having already given up her powers-- at the same time that her past self was torturing the local residents of Collinwood? Does DS canon even allow for that to happen? So even if Angelique remained on Earth beyond the 1897 storyline, she may still have eventually time skipped to a point in the present after Cassandra's destruction.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Jackie on February 09, 2007, 03:19:50 AM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on February 08, 2007, 06:45:39 PM
You'll think I'm taking things too seriously here. In response to Brandon and one or two others:

I enjoyed your post. I have to admit it is my DS interest that got me into some writing fanfic. Otherwise I don't think I would have started write.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: Brandon Collins on February 09, 2007, 06:28:53 AM: Well said Magnus!

And to AW--how silly of me to state the obvious. :D

And finally.....I don't really know if Angelique lived from 1897-1969 in one lump sum. I'd prefer to think she'd do what she pleases, so it's hard to say--she could've returned to hell to have fun with her playthings, or she could've traveled the world to get new playthings. Which is more likely? The latter I'd suppose. After all, somewhere during this period she obviously gets over Barnabas, or so she thinks, and attempts to move on with her life.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: quentincollins on February 18, 2007, 03:02:44 AM: Until 1840 , the series always made it fairly clear that Angelique 's timline followed Barnabas's . She arrives in 1968, follows Barnabs back to 1796,is burned by Ben and sent back to Hell for 101 years , then is resurrected in 1897 by Quentin and Evan. In 1796 and 1897 , Angelique confirms to Barnabas that she had experienced every previous meeting that he's had with her . Then Angelique is seen next as Sky Rumson's wife in 1970. I always though she had lived thru all the years from 1897 , although that's unclear.
1840 is where everything gets confusing . Angelique has been traveling with Lazlo and visits Barnabas 's tomb every year . She doesn't know Julia and seems to truly be the Angelique from this era . Presumably she was resurrected after Barnabas was entombed .Then at the end of 1840 she removes her curse , loses her powers and dies . This would seem to contradict what we've seen from her before . How could this Angelique go on to be the Angelique we've already seen in 1968? Well, when Barnabas, Julia and Stokes returnto the present , they have changed time , and Elizabeth doesn't even know they were gone . So that could be the answer . That because of time travel , time has been changed , and Angelique from 1840 died a mortal death and did not go on to be reborn in the modern day , just as Quentin's fate was changed and he was not a ghost haunting 20th century Collinwood. For that matter , Brnabas traveled back in time using I-Ching , but came forward thru the time staircase ! So his coffin post 1840 would be empty !
Minor spoiler for Big Finish's audio series and Return to Collinwood ( both of which I highly recommend ) [spoiler]Angelique is resurrected in both of those , and seems to have memories of both 1840 and the other time periods we've seen her live thru .
I just chalk that up to her having memories from both versions of history , having been dead so many times and all . Barnabas had memories of both Phyllis Wick and Victoria being Sarah's governess post 1795, he confirms this with Julia shortly after Vicky's return .[/spoiler]
And shouldn't Angelique Rumson still have been alive , as we saw her last shortly before PT1970 ?
DS was pretty sloppy in cleaning up their paradoxes , after all everyone still remembered Quentin as a ghost once Quentin returned to Collinwood post 1897!
But in my way of thinking , 1840 Angelique was native to that time period , and her timeline is a jumbeled mess that can't be neatly aligned into a single straight line.
Title: Re: Angelique's Personal Timeline
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 18, 2007, 08:03:20 AM: We get once again into the area, where we have to think about what events could Barnabas and Julia possibly have lived through from 1967-70, in the new altered time-line they created by altering 1840. Not getting back into the coffin twice is the biggest screw-up, but ECS knows BC and JH, so he was let out of the coffin in 1967. An entirely different sequence of events must have happened at Collinwood from 1967-70. And they must all know those events, since obviously Barnabas and Julia have been there... ECS knows them.... even though they have only ever known the original time-line. Do their memories "self-correct"?

No Mrs. Rumson.