DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '07 I => Topic started by: TNickey2003 on January 02, 2007, 02:10:19 AM
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Episode 658 was the final episode for JC's character Joe Haskell, however JC appeared in a few episodes that followed, as Nathan Forbes in the 1796 flashback in which [spoiler]Barnabas returns to that year to save Victoria Winters from the gallows. Both Nathan Forbes and Natalie Dupres were killed by Ben Stokes in the Secret Room when they attempted to stake Barnabas in his coffin.[/spoiler]
(edited by mod.)
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As people who tried to visit the forum between 7pm ET/4pm PT and about 7:20pm ET/4:20pm PT know, there was an error in the database that prevented the forum from displaying correctly. The error caused a problem with the captions for the slideshow that I thought I'd completely fixed. But apparently the part of the final caption that said "final episode as Joe" was mysteriously truncated and I didn't notice. :-[ But it's been fixed now. [wink2]
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I was sorry to see Joe go, I always hoped that he and Maggie might get back together.
Joe deserved a better fate than [spoiler]getting shipped off to Windcliff.[/spoiler]
Joel Crothers was great as both Joe and Nathan....he played the sweet guy/detestable guy equally well.
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I was sorry to see Joe go, I always hoped that he and Maggie might get back together.
Karlenfan once wrote a story where they indeed get back together. It was a great story. Ah, fanfiction! ;)
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I was sorry to see Joe go, I always hoped that he and Maggie might get back together.
Joe deserved a better fate than [spoiler]getting shipped off to Windcliff.[/spoiler]
I wholeheartedly agree with this! Poor Joe, the writers should never have shipped him off in such a sad way! :( I see no reason why he and Maggie wouldn't get back together.
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I see no reason why he and Maggie wouldn't get back together.
Joel wanted off the show, think KLS wrote about that in Scrapbook Memories. I personally couldn't see anyone other then Joel playing Joe, but I think they should have killed him off instead of what they did do to get him off the show. Just don't see what happened actually happening, he was too strong for that. :(
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I see no reason why he and Maggie wouldn't get back together.
Joel wanted off the show, think KLS wrote about that in Scrapbook Memories. I personally couldn't see anyone other then Joel playing Joe, but I think they should have killed him off instead of what they did do to get him off the show. Just don't see what happened actually happening, he was too strong for that. :(
In Scrapbook Memories, all I recall her saying is that she and Joel were very close and that he, along with Alexandra and Mitch Ryan, had left the show. But I can't remember that she stated in any other publication that he wanted to leave. I also don't recall that he ever said it; only that he had become unhappy with the way his character was written but was willing to take on a more challenging role. My understanding is that the decision to write Joe out of the show was a creative one-- they had nowhere to go with him at the time, and since there wasn't another character for Joel to play, he moved on. He was quoted in the fanzine "The Eagle Hill Sentinel" from 1969:
... Alexander Moltke had left at the end of the previous storyline, and early into this one, Joel Crothers announced he was taking a part on the daytime series Secret Storm. "Joe Haskell had been made into too colorless a character," he complained. He would have relished the role of Quentin, but was told he had "too honest a face." So Joe was taken away to Wyndclliffe, never to be seen again, and his girlfriend Maggie Evans, once a hard-bitten girl from a poor family, became the helpless victim-in-residence. ...
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i agree it's really sad the way the character of joe haskell was handled after a certain point.
i'm rewatching the early episodes and as much as i came to enjoy some of the later parts of the show i can never get past the first year cast.for some reason that dozen or so characters really found a place in my heart.
when characters like burke,vicki,sam and joe departed it was never quite the same for me.
it's true that the show moved in a vastly different direction than it began but i think they could have found a place at the table for everyone.
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MB, or somebody, posted a 1969 or 1970 soap mag interview with Joel in which he discussed his departure from DS in a fairly frank way.
He also revealed that he had written several episodes of the show, which I found quite fascinating. I've never seen this mentioned in any other publication, which seems kind of sad.
Clarice Blackburn went on to become a fairly well-known writer for soaps, and it sounds as if Joel Crothers had that potential as well. I have never heard whether he did any further writing in his later career?
I do LOVE Joel's thesping in his final episode as Joe. It's so deliciously over-the-top!
G.
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In Scrapbook Memories, all I recall her saying is that she and Joel were very close and that he, along with Alexandra and Mitch Ryan, had left the show. But I can't remember that she stated in any other publication that he wanted to leave. I also don't recall that he ever said it; only that he had become unhappy with the way his character was written but was willing to take on a more challenging role. My understanding is that the decision to write Joe out of the show was a creative one-- they had nowhere to go with him at the time, and since there wasn't another character for Joel to play, he moved on. He was quoted in the fanzine "The Eagle Hill Sentinel" from 1969:
... Alexander Moltke had left at the end of the previous storyline, and early into this one, Joel Crothers announced he was taking a part on the daytime series Secret Storm. "Joe Haskell had been made into too colorless a character," he complained. He would have relished the role of Quentin, but was told he had "too honest a face." So Joe was taken away to Wyndclliffe, never to be seen again, and his girlfriend Maggie Evans, once a hard-bitten girl from a poor family, became the helpless victim-in-residence. ...
Maybe "Joe" had an honest face but "Nathan" was a unscrupulous individual. I think Joel could have been a great "Quentin". Both David Selby and Joel Crothers were very good looking men. Joel proved himself a great actor! Remember Joe's dream, [spoiler]when he saw Tom and Chris at the same time, then the vampire and werewolf came after him. And when Joe was bitten by vampiress Angelique, he went through more emotional gamut that any other male character experienced on the show... more so.[/spoiler]
If that was the excuse they gave Joel for not getting the Quentin part, it was lame. That's what actors do, act. They used the same excuse on Alexandra Molkte. Since fans knew her as the sweet Vicki, they would not be able to accept her as anything else. I think that's lame too. I love to see these actors stretching their talents and making the story plots more interesting. They lost great actors when JC or AM left the show.[/color]
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Maybe "Joe" had an honest face but "Nathan" was a unscrupulous individual. I think Joel could have been a great "Quentin". Both David Selby and Joel Crothers were very good looking men. Joel proved himself a great actor! Remember Joe's dream, [spoiler]when he saw Tom and Chris at the same time, then the vampire and werewolf came after him. And when Joe was bitten by vampiress Angelique, he went through more emotional gamut that any other male character experienced on the show... more so.][/spoiler]If that was the excuse they gave Joel for not getting the Quentin part, it was lame
While ITA that Joel would have made an excellant Quentin, I honestly can't imagine anyone other than David Selby playing him.
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I have to agree Buzz. Quentin as played by David Selby was my first crush as a 9 year old girl and I can't imagine anyone else playing him. If Joel had been given the part we never would have seen David Selby and since he had proven how well he could play a villain when he played Nathan Forbes, he would have been believable in the role. I thought Joel was a great actor.
Now assuming that he had gotten the role as Quentin, it's possible the writers would have allowed Joe and Maggie to get back together in the present time. It was such a shame that two couples were [spoiler]broken up by Cassandra/Angelique's machinations, Carolyn and Tony Peterson and Joe and Maggie.[/spoiler] No reason why either couple couldn't have gotten back together. Why should she have been allowed the satisfaction of breaking up two couples? I don't understand why Carolyn and Tony couldn't have gotten back together. Jerry Lacy wasn't leaving the show, since he returned as Trask in 1897.
Alondra
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I was sorry to see Joe go, I always hoped that he and Maggie might get back together.
Karlenfan once wrote a story where they indeed get back together. It was a great story. Ah, fanfiction! ;)
And don't forget that in the backstory they mention for Return to Collinwood, it was said that Joe and Maggie had been married for a number of years. If I recall they said she had been widowed either a few months or a year before the beginning of the play. She was just getting out of mourning and had made tentative steps toward some sort of a relationship with Quentin as the story opens.
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Maybe "Joe" had an honest face but "Nathan" was a unscrupulous individual. I think Joel could have been a great "Quentin". Both David Selby and Joel Crothers were very good looking men. Joel proved himself a great actor! Remember Joe's dream, [spoiler]when he saw Tom and Chris at the same time, then the vampire and werewolf came after him. And when Joe was bitten by vampiress Angelique, he went through more emotional gamut that any other male character experienced on the show... more so.[/spoiler]
If that was the excuse they gave Joel for not getting the Quentin part, it was lame. That's what actors do, act. They used the same excuse on Alexandra Molkte. Since fans knew her as the sweet Vicki, they would not be able to accept her as anything else. I think that's lame too. I love to see these actors stretching their talents and making the story plots more interesting. They lost great actors when JC or AM left the show.
On one of the dvds in set 8 I think, there is an interview with DC in which is laughs and insists that he loves to cast "on type" rather than against.
That being said, I think he would have made a good quentin. I am imagining now though everyone saying when Quentin's ghost starts appearing, "you remind me of Joe!" ;D
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I have really enjoyed Joel's descent into madness. I just finished watching 658 and thought it was an excellent little tour de force for Joel - I was very impressed. He was taken way too early.
I love also the way the episode starts and ends on his wild eyed face (after the obligatory opening shot of collinwood, of course)
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That last scene in the Mausoleum was kind of strange. [spoiler]Ben arrives just in time to save Barny, scuffles with Forbes and knocks him down. Forbes gets up shortly afterwards and points the musket right at Ben, point blank range, and fires. Ben reacts as the bullet tears through his chest, and probably the heart from where he grabs, and then proceeds to give Forbes a few good shakes up against the stairs, where Forbes falls stone cold dead. Then as Natalie tries to escape, he covers her mouth for about 10 seconds to keep her from hollering to loud, and she dies immediatley.[/spoiler]Later in the episode, we see Ben finishing up his chores of burying the 2, and he seems no worse for the wear...Guess i should have posted on the thread about things that make you say "huh"? Then i realize it is Dark Shadows, and proceed to the next episode ;D
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Dan's comment about casting "on type" seems off to me. After all Joel went from playing lovable Joe in the present to the unscrupulous Nathan Forbes in 1795.
With all due respect to the genius who created this great show, he was full of it. He absolutely refused to cast Alexandra as anything but the sweet heroine, yet he seemed to have forgotten that one cast member, Joel Crothers, already broke the mold of playing "on type" by playing another, totally different character and did it brilliantly.
Also I love Joel Crothers, but I wouldn't replace David Selby as Quentin for anything in the world.
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That last scene in the Mausoleum was kind of strange.
Ahhhh, the infamous episode 666! >:D
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Ahhhh, the infamous episode 666! >:D
IIRC (and I think I do) Willie Loomis was in that episode. [spoiler]It was when he and Julia were waiting for Barnabas' return, and fretting that he may have become trapped in the past. I think this is when Willie goes to the mausoleum, opens the coffin and it's empty, leaves and a few moments later the chains appear on the coffin. He goes back to the Old House where Josette's ghost lets him know Barnabas is in danger, he and Julia hightail it back to the mausoleum where they find Barnabas in the coffin. So this was not an unlucky episode after all. It was a great episode.[/spoiler]
Alondra[/b]
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IIRC (and I think I do) Willie Loomis was in that episode. [spoiler]It was when he and Julia were waiting for Barnabas' return, and fretting that he may have become trapped in the past. I think this is when Willie goes to the mausoleum, opens the coffin and it's empty, leaves and a few moments later the chains appear on the coffin. He goes back to the Old House where Josette's ghost lets him know Barnabas is in danger, he and Julia hightail it back to the mausoleum where they find Barnabas in the coffin. So this was not an unlucky episode after all. It was a great episode.[/spoiler][/b]
Yeap, that's the episode. It also has [spoiler]Ben protecting Barnabas from Nathan and the countess from killing him. Ben kills them both to protect Barnabas.[/spoiler][/color]
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Yeap, that's the episode. It also has [spoiler]Ben protecting Barnabas from Nathan and the countess from killing him. Ben kills them both to protect Barnabas.[/spoiler][/color]
tripwire describes that scene in detail in Reply #15 at the top of this page.
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With all due respect to the genius who created this great show, he was full of it.
In more ways than one. He claimed HE came up w/DS when all he did was have a dream about a girl on a train ending up at a house on a hill. Art Wallace is the genius who actually came up w/DS. If you were at the Fest where the stars recreated his TV drama The House, which aired in the late 50's, you'll know what I mean. It was DS a few years before DS even existed. ;)
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In Return to Collinwood , Joe had died in a fishing boat accident "over a decade ago " . While I was thrilled that Joe had gotten out of Windcliffe and married Maggie, I hated that they had him die so young . He could just as easily have died only a year or two ago. Maybe they wanted Maggie to have had a long grieving period before moving on with Quentin .
As for finding a place in the story for Joe, he could've been the werewolf instead of Chris . He could've been a late bloomer , maybe the curse wouldn't kick in until the victim was the same age as Quentin when he killed Jenny . Then Joe could've had all of Chris' s storyline , and Maggie could 've filled in for most of what Sabrina did ( excpet for the catatonia s/l ) .
Not that I 'd want to get rid of Don Briscoe either , but his role was created as Joe was being worked out .
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I hated that they had him die so young .
Well, there's so much about Return To Collinwood to dislike - but chiefly IMO is having Carolyn married to Ned! Carolyn had already displayed extremely poor judgment by marrying Jeb - having her also marry Ned, well, let's just say that immediately afterwards the family should have had the marriage annulled and Carolyn should have been shipped off to Windcliff to spend the rest of her life in a padded room. [wink2]
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Well, there's so much about Return To Collinwood to dislike - but chiefly IMO is having Carolyn married to Ned! Carolyn had already displayed extremely poor judgment by marrying Jeb - having her also marry Ned, well, let's just say that immediately afterwards the family should have had the marriage annulled and Carolyn should have been shipped off to Windcliff to spend the rest of her life in a padded room. [wink2]
Sheesh, you think they would have paired Carolyn with someone else where it would have made sense like Adam or Tony Peterson. Heck, even pairing her with Buzz Hackett would have made more sense than having her wind up with Ned.
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I didn't like Ned on the original series ( while I did like him as Peter/Jeff) , but I liked him ok in Return to Collinwood.Older Ned seemed more calm and stable thanhe'd been on tv. The marraige didn't make sense on paper , but I guess Tony Peterson and Adam weren't available . I kind of liked them togather in RTC , I 'm glad that Carolyn seemed to have a happy marriage .
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Well, there's so much about Return To Collinwood to dislike - but chiefly IMO is having Carolyn married to Ned! Carolyn had already displayed extremely poor judgment by marrying Jeb - having her also marry Ned, well, let's just say that immediately afterwards the family should have had the marriage annulled and Carolyn should have been shipped off to Windcliff to spend the rest of her life in a padded room. [wink2]
That's for sure. If she married Ned, she would have been showing even worse judgement in men than Vicki who [spoiler]had dated and been engaged to Burke (twice her age and who treated her like a child) and married Jeff/Peter who was of course played by the same actor who played Ned, who hasn't been winning any popularity contests with the members of this board.[/spoiler]
Welcome to the board quentincollins, Quentin is my second favorite character behind Willie Loomis. :D
Alondra
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Well, unfortunately I never got a chance to catch Return to Collinwood, so I guess that's why I have a hard time believing Carolyn could ever have gotten together with Ned.
And also I don't see the chemistry between Nancy and Roger Davis. Maybe the actors or the writers did. But it's a mystery to me.
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Get all the DS audiod you can , they're awesome . Honestly , the Big Finish audios have a better story , more of a continuing series . Return is more of a Reunion movie . There's so many beloved characters returning , it's a blast , but the story doesn't do much more than just set the stage for the characters to return . Still a blast , but not as much plot.
Ned was an obnoxious boor on tv , but in the audio he's mellowed considerably into a doting husband .Really , Roger Daivs could be playing an all new character he's so different . They just used Ned because he was Roger Davis's only surviving modern day character . While on paper it sounds like an awful idea , imo , the actor's chemistry and the story makes it work .
Personally , I'd love to see a follow up to Return ( and release Vengeance on cd too ! ) , where Peter/Jeff and Vicky return to the present and Jeff and Ned meet ( they would be brothers in law after all ) .
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Is Return to Collinwood still available? If it is, any ideas where I could find it?
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I did a search on Amazon for Dark Shadows Return to Collinwood and it popped right up .
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Is Return to Collinwood still available? If it is, any ideas where I could find it?
You can get it directly from MPI Home Video (http://www.mpihomevideo.com/?p=25467&pid=1658&pcid=&ccid=&l=) or from Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ESB7ZU?tag=criseydsdarkshad).
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Thanks quentincollins and MsCriseyde! [knockwood]