DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 II => Topic started by: Roland on October 31, 2006, 05:22:25 AM
-
I just noticed that in the 1841 parallel time story, one episode goes all the way back to the late 1600's to show how the "curse" came onto the Collins family.
However, in "our" time band, the great house wasn't built till the time of Barnabas more than a hundred years later.
Just another one of those quaint inconsistencies we DS fans treasure so highly!
-
Really silly that Brutus was sitting in the drawing room of a house that was that enormous in a wilderness, and that was of a style from the mid to late 1800s. I'm given to undertsand that the Old House set was trashed at that point. [candle_in_skull] [candle_in_skull] [candle_in_skull] [candle_in_skull] [candle_in_skull]
-
I'm given to undertsand that the Old House set was trashed at that point.
Um, no, Bramwell and Josette lived in the Old House and this scene takes place [spoiler]before Daphne dies, in the Old House.[/spoiler]
-
There was a point when I was trying to figure out the history of Parallel Time, and one theory I had was that there were in fact three Collinwoods. First was a house more-or-less where the current Collinwood now stands, which was built by Brutus Collins. After his death, his will made it impossible for his heirs to tear it down, but at some point they decided to build another home nearby--the Old House. They were possibly trying to escape the curse that way, but it didn't work. Still later, someone (possibly Jeremiah) restored and expanded the first Collinwood into the huge place seen in 1841.
Its a theory, anyway. [hall2_tongue]
-
Though continuity got messed up a bit on DS over the years, this is not one of those times.
This story is set in another Universe, and has it's own, separate history that was never established
onscreen.
So anything goes.
David
-
Have to agree with the "anything goes" theory. This was a different band of time, different Collinwood, different history and mostly different characters (many who happen to resemble RT characters though). I doubt anything about PT even remotely came close to matching anything in RT.
-
Have to agree with the "anything goes" theory. This was a different band of time, different Collinwood, different history and mostly different characters.
I agree as well, I don't think 1841 PT is the 'past' of 1970 PT the same way that 1840 is the 'past' of 1970.
-
I also agree with the anything goes theory. We have no idea about history in those Parallel Time bands. Architectural styles might have evolved differently there.
-
An 'anything goes' approach strains believability though. I don't know what it is exactly, but even in fantasy, for me anyway, there has to be some internal logic to what's going on. Things can't seem too 'arbitrary'. That was the problem with PT overall for me. They seemed to just shuffle around the elements of DS without enough thought about whether different choices could actually have led to theose things happening.
-
My theory is somewhat like Zahir's. Where Collinwood stood, there was an original, much smaller "mansion" that contained the cursed bedroom. Over time, the family added to and built around it, kind of like the Winchester House. Where did the Old House come from? Maybe an attempt, like Zahir said, to escape the curse; maybe a place to live when construction made occupying Collinwood messy at times. Maybe it was built by some Collins who just didn't want to live in the manor house with the rest of his family.
Gerard
-
My theory is somewhat like Zahir's. Where Collinwood stood, there was an original, much smaller "mansion" that contained the cursed bedroom. Over time, the family added to and built around it, kind of like the Winchester House. Where did the Old House come from? Maybe an attempt, like Zahir said, to escape the curse; maybe a place to live when construction made occupying Collinwood messy at times. Maybe it was built by some Collins who just didn't want to live in the manor house with the rest of his family.
I also concur w/this, it makes sense. What doesn't make sense, to me anyway, is why were Barnabas, Josette and Bramwell the so-called 'poor relations'? I had to tackle that question in my novel and I feel that, for lack of a better explanation from the show, I came up w/a plausible reason. [hall2_grin]
-
I don't know what it is exactly, but even in fantasy, for me anyway, there has to be some internal logic to what's going on. Things can't seem too 'arbitrary'. That was the problem with PT overall for me.
If you haven't already read this topic, you might want to check out:
Possible Origin Of The "Rip" In Time
There are a few topics like this one that try to explain the way Parallel Time supposedly works. There's also one that mentions how the current physics of String Theory proves mathematically that parallel universes can and probably do exist (not to mention that there are actually 11 dimensions and not merely the 4 we're aware of), but that one might go into things that aren't really necessary for the purposes of this discussion. ;)
They seemed to just shuffle around the elements of DS without enough thought about whether different choices could actually have led to theose things happening.
Actually consider if actual choices might have brought about the shuffling of elements the writers decided upon for the PT storylines? OMG, now that's just asking DC in particular to put too much thought into things! [wink2] ::) Trying to figure all this stuff out was always left completely to the audience - which is no doubt why we're STILL trying to figure it all out 40 years later. [lghy]
-
Buzz... Barnabas became the poor relation in RT. Joshua disowned him. My concentration is awful, so I may be missing something, but couldn't that part of the story have happened the same way in PT too? Not quite the same way, but no curse, Angelique defeated, BC reunited with Josette? After which Joshua still wouldn't forgive, his being the unforgiving sort?
I'm curious as to your idea about PT 1841 and 1970 not being in the same timeline. Are there multiple parallel times?
How could they be sure 1995 wasn't PT?
MB... I've heard of the ten or eleven universes thing. I'm interested but article-length things are too daunting what with the eye difficulty.... I'll look in on it. One thought is that multiple dimensions does not at all necessarily mean parallel ones. The other universes sharing physical space with ours could be anything.
-
One thought is that multiple dimensions does not at all necessarily mean parallel ones. The other universes sharing physical space with ours could be anything.
In String Theory, the hypotheses that there are actually 11 dimensions and parallel universes are really separate issues - and the 11 dimensions would actually exist in each parallel universe just as the 4 dimensions we're aware of (height, width, depth and time) exist here in this universe - separate universes wouldn't exist in the 11 dimensions. But to really understand all that, one would need to read up on String Theory. [hall2_smiley] Not to mention it's a discussion that goes way beyond the scope of this forum.
One of the more interesting theories for parallel universes is the one that I mentioned in the topic that I linked to in reply #11. It's fascinating to think that every time we're presented with a choice, the possibilty is that we actually make each choice and create an alternate/concurrent band of time where each choice is indeed lived out. And because there are an infinite amount of choices to be made, there are infinite parallel universes - though the bands in which the choices made correspond most closely would supposedly exist closest to each other, whereas the ones furthest away would be as different from our own universe as they could possibly be.
It's certainly fanciful but still pretty cool to fantasize that in some parallel universes DS was never canceled in 1971, it's still running on ABC, and our alternate selves might be coming to a forum similar to this one to discuss the current DS storylines rather than those from 40 years ago. [hall2_wink]
-
Imaginings should reign supreme, yet I don't think that actual, real physics supports the whole parallel thing.
-
It's certainly fanciful but still pretty cool to fantasize that in some parallel universes DS was never canceled in 1971, it's still running on ABC, and our alternate selves might be coming to a forum similar to this one to discuss the current DS storylines rather than those from 40 years ago.
And in some parallel universes, Bert Convy was hired instead of Jonathan Frid to play Barnabas, Dark Shadows was canceled in mid-1967, and nobody remembers it. We may not live in the best of all possible worlds, but we certainly don't live in the worst.
-
Buzz... Barnabas became the poor relation in RT. Joshua disowned him. My concentration is awful, so I may be missing something, but couldn't that part of the story have happened the same way in PT too?
That's true, he did disown him when he married a 'servant', but really Barnabas never had the chance to *be* the poor relation because he 'died'. Then of course he and Joshua did reconcile in the end, well, *actually* on his deathbed they reconciled. But you have a good point about PT Joshua disowning PT Barnabas. As has been bandied about already here, most fans seem to be in agreement that Josette, being of French descent and from Martinique, was probably Catholic and perhaps staunch Protestant Joshua had a problem w/that. [hall2_wink]
-
It's certainly fanciful but still pretty cool to fantasize that in some parallel universes DS was never canceled in 1971, it's still running on ABC, and our alternate selves might be coming to a forum similar to this one to discuss the current DS storylines rather than those from 40 years ago.
Can you all *believe* what Barnabas & Julia's son did on the show yesterday?? Geez, that's a stretch, even for DS! Still, I'm glad Angelique is back again to stir up trouble for them. Wonder if their son *will* sleep w/her! ;)
-
yet I don't think that actual, real physics supports the whole parallel thing.
That's not quite true. And I said earlier, the current physics of String Theory proves mathematically that parallel universes can and probably do exist. Though, of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that every physicist supports String Theory (or M-Theory, as it's also called). But then, even within the scientific community itself, skeptics have and always will exist, and it often takes the truth to be pounded into them before they'll finally accept it. I mean, there was a huge backlash against believing that electricity and magnetism are related, and we all know how that worked out. ;D And even Einstein was skepitical to outright disbelieving about some things that have since been proven to be true and are perfectly accepted today. ;)
One person who definitely supports String Theory is physicist, mathematician, professor and author Brian Greene. He had a wonderful three part series on the PBS science series Nova back in 2003. Check out the Web site: NOVA: The Elegant Universe (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/). And in particular watch chapter 4 from hour 3: Parallel Universes (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program_d.html)
(Quicktime plug-in required.)
Greene theorizes that some parallel universes might even have their own separate laws of physics. So, it should be fairly easy to accept that comparatively innocuous things like fashion and architecture could have evolved differently as well. [wink2]
-
I said other dimensions, yes, but in those other dimensions, I doubt that physics discusses whether or not there's another Earth with another me walking around. I don't know if I'm right. If the laws of physics are different, I doubt there would be similar things going on at all, much less an opposite me with another personality. There might not be life. Or radically different life. But then I have very limited access to information, because of the eye thing. But the parallel events/alternate personalities thing became a TV plot device eventually, and while I think it was one interesting possibility when first (?) done on Star Trek, it's probably just one writer's idea that became popular. Just my thoughts, not knowing specifics about physics, just raising questions.
-
I said other dimensions, yes, but in those other dimensions, I doubt that physics discusses whether or not there's another Earth with another me walking around. ... But the parallel events/alternate personalities thing became a TV plot device eventually, and while I think it was one interesting possibility when first (?) done on Star Trek, it's probably just one writer's idea that became popular. Just my thoughts, not knowing specifics about physics, just raising questions.
For a bit of insight into how quantum mechanics and chance figure into the probability of parallel universes and the possibility of multiple versions of ourselves, check out chapter 5 from hour 1: The Quantum Cafe (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program_d.html)
It just hits the tip of the iceberg in the greater scheme of things. Watching the entire three hours would give a better picture of things (not to mention reading up on String Theory/M-Theory - though that might be a bit much to expect the average person to want to do because the average person could probably care less ;)). It would probably be more interesting to be able to watch the entire series on PBS than it would be to watch bits and pieces on Nova's site. And the good thing about that is that PBS does reshow the series from time to time. In fact, it was on one of my PBS stations again about two months ago.
-
Thanks MB. My problem with the science programs on PBS is that bits are frustratingly dumbed down, then others are incomprensible. My understanding level is right inbetween. I am interested in String Theory, and cosmology in general.
-
Not trying to be offensive or disagreeable, folks. But, the idea that the Collinwood mansion existed in the 1600s is simply rationalization --an admirable attempt to bring all of DS's continuity mistakes into reality. Respectfully, I don't buy it.
I can accept most of the differences between "our" DS time and parallell time. I accept them because, for the most part, they were written intelligently and intentionally. Having said that -- I do not believe that ANYTHING GOES in parallel time. There must be some level of consistancy between "our" time and parellel time. Otherwise, it all becomes silly. If anyting goes in parallel time, then we could have Mickey Mouse, Rush Limbaugh, and the Reverand Al Sharpton engaging in illicit behavior in the foyer of Collinwood, and none of us could complain, because -- ANYTHING GOES in parellel time. Go AT IT, boys!!
Sorry, but I just can't rationalize the existance of the Collinwood mansion in the 1600s. I'm not going to try to excuse something that was so obviously a mistake on the part of TPTB. It was THEIR continuity error, and not our job to figure it out or to somehow rationalize it into official DS cannon.
Some have said the Old House set had already been destroyed when this scene was taped. Others indicate that is incorrect. Either way, it doesn't matter. In the mid-1600s, it's unlikely that even the Old House would have existed. The set designer should have designed a small simple "hut-like" set for the 1600 scene. The entire thing could have been buiilt for $250 (1970 money). In other words, there is simply no excuse -- creatively, logically, or even fiscally, for this continuity error to have made it to broadcast. No matter why TPTB may have chosen to use the Collinwood set for that scene -- there is no REAL excuse for it, and it shouldn't be rationalized. It is really sort of sad to see long-time DS fans (like myself) thinking-up excuses for this lazy writing.
Not trying to start an arguement -- but seems to me, using the Collinwood set for the 1600s scene (parellel time, or not) was a great big stupid continuity mistake in the part of TPTB. It is most certainly not the resonsibility of the fans to "figure-out" or rationalize. Let's face it, TIIC screwed-up.
-
Fletcher... you're obviously right. I think you may be getting a bit too serious about it, though. Trying to rationalize mistakes in a TV program that means something to you can sometimes just get you over the rough spots when watching those storylines. It can also be an interesting exercise, a creative act, even. If you can think of ways to reconcile bonehead mistakes made over a third of a century ago by rushed and tired writers, you've accomplished something that shouldn't really be possible. It's a more legitimate use of brainpower than those mental games they like to do at Mensa meetings, from what I hear.
-
I think a really cool case scenario would be if Collinwood is actually eternal... for instance:
a. A flashback to 1597, showing Edmonds, Bennett, Barrett, etc. in Elizabethan clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
b. A flashback to 1097, showing the cast in Old English clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
c. A flashback to 597, showing the cast in Arthurian clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
d. A flashback to 97 BC, showing the cast in togas in the drawing room of Collinwood.
e. A flashback to 1897 BC, showing the cast in skins and furs in the drawing room of Collinwood.
I know, I know... too corny, even for Dark Shadows! But how hilarious would it have been if they had actually gone there?!
-
e. A flashback to 1897 BC, showing the cast in skins and furs in the drawing room of Collinwood.
Barnabas looks at them all, and wonders: "How am I supposed to tell which one is the werewolf?"
-
Good points, MagnusTrask. I agree, it is fun to try to make sense of the continuity or lack of it on DS. Fans of many TV shows enjoy this, and usually I am right there enjoying it myself as well.
I guess what I was trying to express is that this particular error in continuity was such a large one, that I would personally prefer to ignore it, rather than to re-write the entire Collinwood conttruction history. Re-writing the history of the house opens up a train-load of additional continuity issues as well. For example, would it have even been possible (architechurally or technically) to build the "same" Collinwood 150 years earier than the house in real time?
Oh my, you're right. I AM taking this all too seriously. LOL.
-
I think a really cool case scenario would be if Collinwood is actually eternal... for instance:
a. A flashback to 1597, showing Edmonds, Bennett, Barrett, etc. in Elizabethan clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
b. A flashback to 1097, showing the cast in Old English clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
c. A flashback to 597, showing the cast in Arthurian clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
d. A flashback to 97 BC, showing the cast in togas in the drawing room of Collinwood.
e. A flashback to 1897 BC, showing the cast in skins and furs in the drawing room of Collinwood.
I know, I know... too corny, even for Dark Shadows! But how hilarious would it have been if they had actually gone there?!
Hysterical! I can just imagine Jeff Clark dragging Vicki around by her hair!
-
Collinwood before the Earth had cooled, magma everywhere.... good excuse to stay in the drawing room and drink brandy.... Collinwood before the formation of the Earth, hanging in space with clouds of interstellar gas.... they spot the afghan floating outside the window... oh, that would look lovely on the sofa... Collinwood, first object formed in the first nanosecond after the Big Bang... a bit hot out today, are we well stocked with brandy? Someone close those damn curtains, it's so bright outside!
-
I think a really cool case scenario would be if Collinwood is actually eternal... for instance:
a. A flashback to 1597, showing Edmonds, Bennett, Barrett, etc. in Elizabethan clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
b. A flashback to 1097, showing the cast in Old English clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
c. A flashback to 597, showing the cast in Arthurian clothes in the drawing room of Collinwood.
d. A flashback to 97 BC, showing the cast in togas in the drawing room of Collinwood.
e. A flashback to 1897 BC, showing the cast in skins and furs in the drawing room of Collinwood.
I know, I know... too corny, even for Dark Shadows! But how hilarious would it have been if they had actually gone there?!
LOL to this and to MT's Big Bang Collinwood stuff! Hilarious!
Hey? Why not just say that the Collinses are aliens? They came to this earth with advanced technology so they knew how to build that type of house when everyone else was just using branches and mud to make their house. And the reason so much brandy is around the house is because this is what they survive off of, which would explain why we never see them eating. And when we DO see Carolyn and Vicki having breakfast in the kitchen in the pre-Barn eps, we'll just say that the aliens have adapted to learn to eat food overtime. [hall2_wink]
-
And Barnabas is from the planet Transexual in the galaxy of Transylvania. Or Drakulon (where Vampirella was from). I doubt very much that Roger is Riff Raff, but you neber know.