DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 II => Topic started by: Willie on September 30, 2006, 02:18:42 PM
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Something's always bothered me about the family in 1897. You had the grandmother, I can't remember her name, and then you had the grandchildren, Edward, Judith, Quentin and Carl. So what happened to the generation in between? I can't remember them ever being mentioned, and as far as the grandmother's will is concerned, I would think her inheritance would go to one of her children, not straight to the grandchildren.
Anyhow, that's always puzzled me. Anybody know what happened to these folks?
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I believe Judith told Barnabas that their grandmother had raised them when their parents died. I figure this would have been in the mid-1870s. There were all sorts of illnesses that could have carried the parents off, but that would be awfully pedestrian. Maybe they found themselves in some parallel time and couldn't get back, and were missing and presumed dead. Maybe the mother was Laura, and there was another child, and the father died while trying unsuccessfully to save the child. Maybe Angelique killed them, just to stay in shape. Maybe they took Quentin's staircase into the future and died in a plane crash in Brazil. The possibilities are endless!
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What Lydia said is correct. Their parents died and then Edith and Daniel raised them.
But as for the Laura thing, I thought that did happen. I thought that Laura came and married one man, had the kid, and then that was Edward, and then she came back and married Edward and had Jamison? Maybe I'm just thinking of how she married Edward and had Jamison and then Jamison had Roger and Liz (I didn't skip a generation did I?) and then she came back and married Roger and had David. That always struck me as---HELLO! You're inbred enough! For peeps sake! Carolyn dated Joe and Chris, and both are related to her if I'm not mistaken! [spoiler]Chris is Quentin's grandson if I remember correctly.[/spoiler]
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I think it went like this:
[spoiler]
1780s - Laura was engaged to Jeremiah Collins but she perished in a fire
1880s - Laura marries Edward and has Jamison & Nora
1950s - Laura marries Roger (son of Jamison, so Laura's own grandson, ew.) and has David
But maybe there was more than one Laura running around, I just realized those inbreeding complications and am totally grossed out by it. No wonder David is so messed up.
[/spoiler]
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[spoiler]In the 1967 Laura story it went like this:
1767- Laura Murdoch Stockbridge died by fire
1867- Laura Murdoch Radcliffe and her son David died by fire
1967- Laura Murdoch Collins died by fire.[/spoiler]
So, there were other "Laura's around also.
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Carolyn dated Joe and Chris, and both are related to her if I'm not mistaken!
Joe wasn't a Collins - he was seemingly related to the Jennings because his mother was most probably the sister of their father. [spoiler]Whereas the Collins relationship is passed through to the Jennings siblings through their mother, who was Quentin's granddaughter.[/spoiler] A search will bring up a few different topics on the forum that discuss this. :)
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[spoiler]In the 1967 Laura story it went like this:
1767- Laura Murdoch Stockbridge died by fire
1867- Laura Murdoch Radcliffe and her son David died by fire
1967- Laura Murdoch Collins died by fire.[/spoiler]
So, there were other "Laura's around also.
That is something of a relief.
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I think it went like this: [spoiler]1780s - Laura was engaged to Jeremiah Collins but she perished in a fire[/spoiler]
I thought that [spoiler]Laura and Jeremiah had a child that she came back and claimed. Isn't that what Barnabas told Charity(?) in 1897 after he met Laura and remembered her from when he was a boy of 10?[/spoiler]
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if i'm remembering this correctly...
[spoiler]barnabas did say that jeremiah and laura had been married when he was a boy.at the time i found this startling because during the 1975 storyline there had been no mention of jeremiah having had a wife previous to josette.but of course the show told stories that contradicted what was already established all the time.[/spoiler]
to complicate this order further the pheonix is supposed to be on the 100 year cycle yet when laura shows up in 1966 it's only been 69 years since her last incarnation wreaked havoc on the collins family.
was it ever firmly established that jamison was liz and roger's father or are we just assuming this due to the time line?
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What Lydia said is correct. Their parents died and then Edith and Daniel raised them.
Wasn't Edith in 1840 married to Gabriel? If this is suppose to be the same Edith in 1897, her husband would be Gabriel. It is so confusing when we start watching in 1897, [spoiler]we see grandmama die and then go back to 1840 and see the younger Edith die!![/spoiler][/size]
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was it ever firmly established that jamison was liz and roger's father or are we just assuming this due to the time line?
I think somewhere in there when Quentin & Beth's ghosts are haunting the house Roger mentions that Jamison was his Father. I think (I my be wrong) it was when he found the letter adressed to Jamison from Quentin talking about an Oscar person who never made it to 1897.
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I think (I my be wrong) it was when he found the letter adressed to Jamison from Quentin talking about an Oscar person who never made it to 1897.
I believe "Oscar" was the original name for Edward. Anyone's guess why it was changed.
Though on a demented note can't you just see Judith going "Oscar, Oscar, Oscar......"
[91a2]
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I think somewhere in there when Quentin & Beth's ghosts are haunting the house Roger mentions that Jamison was his Father. I think (I my be wrong) it was when he found the letter adressed to Jamison from Quentin talking about an Oscar person
Great recall, arashi!--
Roger goes into the drawing room and opens his briefcase on the desk. A large book falls from the piano to the floor. Roger turns and looks at it. He picks it up and opens it. He finds a piece of paper inside, a letter. He looks at it, puzzled. When Carolyn comes in, he tells her it's a letter addressed to his father, Jamison, dated 1887. He must have been a boy, muses Roger. "Dear Jamison, you must return to Collinwood, I need your help. You must intercede with Oscar. Only you can save me." They wonder what it means. It's signed "Quentin." ...
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Wasn't Edith in 1840 married to Gabriel? If this is suppose to be the same Edith in 1897, her husband would be Gabriel. It is so confusing when we start watching in 1897, [spoiler]we see grandmama die and then go back to 1840 and see the younger Edith die!![/spoiler][/size]
Isn't is possible that perhaps, though unexplained, Gabriel was married to Edith, [spoiler]then she died, oops and then maybe her twin sister found out and came to switch places with her, really not being dead at all?!! Oh no, wait....that was Alexis and Angelique. Maybe Edith was another incarnation of Ang. and that was her practice round!!! lol......[/spoiler]
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I thought that [spoiler]Laura and Jeremiah had a child that she came back and claimed. Isn't that what Barnabas told Charity(?) in 1897 after he met Laura and remembered her from when he was a boy of 10?[/spoiler]
Barnabas mentions that [spoiler]Jeremiah and Laura were married, but there's no mention of a child. What might have been interesting is if the show ever mentioned how/why their marriage ended. But I suppose they didn't think that was necessary. And, of course, it leaves yet another avenue for fanfiction to explore. ;)[/spoiler]
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Barnabas mentions that [spoiler]Jeremiah and Laura were married, but there's no mention of a child. What might have been interesting is if the show ever mentioned how/why their marriage ended. But I suppose they didn't think that was necessary. And, of course, it leaves yet another avenue for fanfiction to explore. ;)[/spoiler]
Hmmmm. I might take you up on that suggestion/idea!
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[spoiler]What might have been interesting is if the show ever mentioned how/why their marriage ended.[/spoiler]
Um, I thought [spoiler]the marriage ended when Laura burned to death in a fire. Didn't Barnabas say her death was the greatest sorrow of Jeremiah's life, or words to that effect?[/spoiler]
ProfStokes
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Um, I thought [spoiler]the marriage ended when Laura burned to death in a fire. Didn't Barnabas say her death was the greatest sorrow of Jeremiah's life, or words to that effect?[/spoiler]
Hmmm, maybe. Honestly, I only remember Barnabas saying something to the effect that it was ironic that [spoiler]Laura died in a fire - or a fire killed her - or something like that. And if that was all that was said, then we can certainly presume her fiery death may have ended their marriage, but we probably can't be 100% certain of it. ;)[/spoiler]
If someone else doesn't get to it before I do, I'll look up the episode when I get a chance. :)
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I'm watching these episodes right now as a matter of fact! Here's what I've heard thus far:
[spoiler]Barnabas said that Laura Stockbridge Collins lived at Collinwood when he was a young boy, and he watched her pose for the portrait that he later gives to her in 1897. Her tombstone says that she died in 1785. Barnabas tells Charity that Jeremiah valued Laura very much as his wife. He says he was 10 when he first saw her, and thought she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen. He says that fire killed her. That's all I've gotten to so far.[/spoiler]
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Update!!! I am just now watching the episode where Barnabas reads from a book how Laura died. To quote directly:
[spoiler]"Laura Collins. Died, January 25th, 1875 (I'm sure he meant 1785). Cause of death, fire." He also says that Jeremiah was very upset to hear about her death.[/spoiler]
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Cool, Brandon Collins!
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There is a fan novel called "The Year the Fire Came" which tells the story of Jeremiah and Laura. It's available from Kathleen Resch of The World of Dark Shadows.
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[spoiler]"Laura Collins. Died, January 25th, 1875 (I'm sure he meant 1785). Cause of death, fire." He also says that Jeremiah was very upset to hear about her death.[/spoiler]
So, if Barnabas was [spoiler]10 in 1785 when Laura died by fire, he was 20 in 1795! I knew he was young![/spoiler]
Another example of 'suspension of disbelief', in other words, don't let the 43 year old actor make you think the character he's playing is 43! 8)
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Since Laura likes to have children with her children and grandchildren, I like to speculate that if a Collins doesn't have a mother mentioned, Laura is their mother. ;)
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So, if Barnabas was [spoiler]10 in 1785 when Laura died by fire, he was 20 in 1795! I knew he was young![/spoiler]
Another example of 'suspension of disbelief', in other words, don't let the 43 year old actor make you think the character he's playing is 43! 8)
Barnabas said he was 10 the first time he laid eyes on Laura but didn't say he was 10 when she died:
Re: Robservations 11/22/02 - #...739 - Barnabas & Charity Look Into Laura's Past
I remember the first time I saw her, I was a child of 10 and I thought there could never be no more beautiful woman as long as I lived." Charity asks, "When you were 10 years old?" She was like a flame, says Barnabas, coming toward the house, that day in her bright orange riding habit. How ironic that fire should kill her.
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Update!!! I am just now watching the episode where Barnabas reads from a book how Laura died. To quote directly:
[spoiler]"Laura Collins. Died, January 25th, 1875 (I'm sure he meant 1785). Cause of death, fire." He also says that Jeremiah was very upset to hear about her death.[/spoiler]
Ah, DS - we love it - but why is it that all too often things aren't made 100%, crystal clear - not to mention why do they forget things that they'd established only two episodes prior? :-
When I'd answered earlier, I was only thinking of the scene in Ep #739 in which Barnabas tells Charity that [spoiler]Laura died in a fire[/spoiler]I'd completely forgotten about the infamous "Cousin, Uncle Jeremiah" scene in Ep #741. ;) But apparently Barnabas is even more forgetful than I because in Ep #739 he remembers how Laura died, yet in Ep #741 he doesn't (and I love how he remarks in Ep #741: [spoiler]"Fire. How could I have forgotten that?"[/spoiler]^-^). And it's also odd that while referring to the circumstances of her death, Barnabas says, "It was a sudden death. That I know. My father wrote me to say that my Cousin, Uncle Jeremiah was, was very disturbed. He said not to tell him when I returned home." Huh? Not to tell him what? That Laura was dead? That seems unlikly since I'm sure we're to assume Jeremiah was disturbed over her death. So, we're then left with the circumstances of her death. But shouldn't a man already know how his wife died? Or are we to assume that they simply told Jeremiah that Laura was dead but they refused to tell him how she died? It seems unlikely Jeremiah would accept that. But who knows? This IS the Collins family, after all - a family that seemingly has to cover up and avoid dealing with everything that's too unpleasant. ::) ... Although, if they were no longer married, it would have been easier to get away with not telling Jeremiah the circumstances. ;) And if the marriage had ended in divorce, it could easily explain why 1795 treats Jeremiah as if he had never been married. Divorce, though certainly much rarer than today, did happen in the 18th century - and it surely would have been a huge scandal if it became public knowledge. And if a divorce between Jeremiah and Laura did occur, like everything else that Joshua found distasteful, it's more than likely that he would have simply considered that the marriage didn't exist from that point on and probably even made up his own history. Laura could have been sent away, supposedly on an extended world tour without her husband (actually former husband) and no one outside the family was supposed to be the wiser. It would also explain why she would still be buried as a Collins. And in that scenario one can see Jeremiah only being told of Laura's death but the family being ordered by Joshua to never speak of it or the circumstances surrounding it. That's most probably not the way the DS writers conceived it because, well, let's face it, they rarely tried to explain away any discrepencies because apparently they hardly ever realized they were creating any. We can probably be 99% certain that Jeremiah and Laura were indeed still married when she died. But there's still that 1% uncertainty with the way the whole situation is presented - and that's still enough to open the door to a bit of fanfiction speculation. [wink2]
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Barnabas mentions that [spoiler]Jeremiah and Laura were married, but there's no mention of a child. ...[/spoiler]
Not only doesn't Barn mention [spoiler]a child[/spoiler]when he explains about Laura to Charity, but I'd completely forgotten that in Ep #741, when Sandor theorizes that the 1897 Laura could be Laura Stockbridge Collins' descendant, Barn responds [spoiler]"The original never had children."[/spoiler]
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And it's also odd that while referring to the circumstances of her death, Barnabas says, "It was a sudden death. That I know. My father wrote me to say that my Cousin, Uncle Jeremiah was, was very disturbed. He said not to tell him when I returned home." Huh? Not to tell him what? That Laura was dead? That seems unlikly since I'm sure we're to assume Jeremiah was disturbed over her death.
It was probably a dialog blooper on Jonathan's part, the line was probably something like, "My father told me not to discuss it w/Jeremiah", in other words, Joshua probably told Barnabas not to talk to Jeremiah about it because it was too upsetting for him to talk about how she died. ;)
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It was probably a dialog blooper on Jonathan's part
Considering the "Cousin, Uncle" slip up, that's more than a possibility. Frid was flustered in the scene. But for better or worse, when it comes to DS canon, we're left to go by what actually took place/was said in the eps and not what might have been intended to take place/be said. :)
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Isn't is possible that perhaps, though unexplained, Gabriel was married to Edith, [spoiler]then she died, oops and then maybe her twin sister found out and came to switch places with her, really not being dead at all?!! Oh no, wait....that was Alexis and Angelique. Maybe Edith was another incarnation of Ang. and that was her practice round!!! lol......[/spoiler]
LOL that is twisted!!
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And it's also odd that while referring to the circumstances of her death, Barnabas says, "It was a sudden death. That I know. My father wrote me to say that my Cousin, Uncle Jeremiah was, was very disturbed. He said not to tell him when I returned home." Huh? Not to tell him what? That Laura was dead? That seems unlikly since I'm sure we're to assume Jeremiah was disturbed over her death.
It was probably a dialog blooper on Jonathan's part, the line was probably something like, "My father told me not to discuss it w/Jeremiah", in other words, Joshua probably told Barnabas not to talk to Jeremiah about it because it was too upsetting for him to talk about how she died. ;)
Speaking of a dialogue blooper....
[spoiler]I was watching the episodes where Julia's back in 1897. Barnabas had just rescued her from Aristede, they're back at the rectory and Julia is about to give Barnabas an injection. He tells her they need an ally and the only person they have is Angelique. Barnabas then goes on to say that she arrived there a week ago, about a week after he arrived.
So all this stuff that's happened in the storyline we're supposed to believe happened in TWO WEEKS?! There were like 4 full moons in that span of time! For some reason I am not sure if that was a flub on JFs part because he said it twice, perhaps just sloppy writing.[/spoiler]
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And it's also odd that while referring to the circumstances of her death, Barnabas says, "It was a sudden death. That I know. My father wrote me to say that my Cousin, Uncle Jeremiah was, was very disturbed. He said not to tell him when I returned home." Huh? Not to tell him what?
Barnabas was not to tell Jeremiah that he (Barnabas) had returned home. Jeremiah had been upset enough about the torrid, red-hot, all-over-the-house-and-spilling-out-onto-the-porch affair between Laura and Barnabas when Laura was alive (Barnabas was one precocious ten-year-old), but now that Laura was dead, to be reminded of the memory of her betrayal would be enough to send Jeremiah over Widows Hill.
Luckily, Julia made a flying trip into the past soon after that to hypnotize Jeremiah into forgetting Laura had ever existed, and after that everybody just pretended he had never been married at all.
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Ah - that clears it up perfectly, Lydia. :-
[lghy]
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Barnabas was not to tell Jeremiah that he (Barnabas) had returned home. Jeremiah had been upset enough about the torrid, red-hot, all-over-the-house-and-spilling-out-onto-the-porch affair between Laura and Barnabas when Laura was alive (Barnabas was one precocious ten-year-old), but now that Laura was dead, to be reminded of the memory of her betrayal would be enough to send Jeremiah over Widows Hill.
Luckily, Julia made a flying trip into the past soon after that to hypnotize Jeremiah into forgetting Laura had ever existed, and after that everybody just pretended he had never been married at all.
Um, are you sure your name isn't Joshua Collins?! ;)
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Speaking of a dialogue blooper....
[spoiler]I was watching the episodes where Julia's back in 1897. Barnabas had just rescued her from Aristede, they're back at the rectory and Julia is about to give Barnabas an injection. He tells her they need an ally and the only person they have is Angelique. Barnabas then goes on to say that she arrived there a week ago, about a week after he arrived.
So all this stuff that's happened in the storyline we're supposed to believe happened in TWO WEEKS?! There were like 4 full moons in that span of time! For some reason I am not sure if that was a flub on JFs part because he said it twice, perhaps just sloppy writing.[/spoiler]
That was definitely a blooper, either on the writers' or Frid's part, and I'm inclined to think it was the writers. No way had all that action taken place in the span of 2 weeks, or even two months! It had been several months at the least.
Alondra