DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '07 I => Topic started by: Willie on June 19, 2007, 02:01:31 PM
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I don't think the spoiler feature is working so...
**SPOILER**
I'm almost at the end of the Leviathon storyline and Peter Bradford's ghost shows up. He says that Jeb Hawkes somehow caused the death of Vicki, and Peter then killed Jeb and was later hung for it. Soooooo...are we supposed to assume that after Barnabas went back in time and got Peter and Vicki all squared away so they could live happily ever after in 1795, somehow they got mixed up with the Leviathons, and Vicki was maybe under their power or something, leading to her death? So they didn't live happily ever after, but died tragically two years later in 1797? Those two really had bad luck at the gallows didn't they?
It just seems kind of odd. But these episodes are absolutely fantastic!
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I have not seen the Leviathan story yet, but at a guess, I think the writers wanted to show the Leviathans as a nastier lot by having them kill the killing the fan-beloved Victoria. Since previous attempts to recast the role met with failure, perhaps the writers didn't have a problem with killing her off in this way.
Or since the storyline was not very popular (IIRC, ratings plummeted diuring this story), they needed a way to wrap it up quickly and using the Bradford/Shadow plot they were able to dispatch Jeb sooner than they originally planned? All pure supposition on my part.
:)
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I absolutely LOATHE this plot twist....there was no reason to ruin Vicki and Peter's happy ending.
Vicki had been a much beloved character, killing her off was a big mistake. All it did was alienate the viewers further.
Aside from this unpleasant plot twist though, I myself enjoy the Leviathans storyline.
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Now 1968 is fresher in my memory than Leviathans. Did they really give no clue as to how Jeb was somehow mixed up with Bradford and Victoria? Other than getting them killed somehow?
We know Leviathan people were around in 1795/6/7, whatever....because that's where Barnabas met them. Is there any hint of an implied reason that their being there at Collinwood back then led to Jeb offing PB and VW? They throw a lot of extra relationships into Bradford's past, indiscriminately. It just suddenly turned out that Eve knew him, too....
It was pretty short-sighted of Barnabas to send PB and VW mark 3 out the front door of Collinwood, assuming that since they said they were making their way out west, they would get there. No reason to think they weren't nabbed a few minutes later and taken back to gaol. Barnabas was naive about problem-solving at this point. He was new at solving other people's problems and screwed up a lot.
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I think more than anything, mentioning that Jeb killed Vicki was intended for some sort of shock value to entice viewers back to watching since many people were either confused by or simply didn't like the storyline.
I never really got that particular plot development, because it doesn't make sense. In 1795/6/7 the Leviathans were recruiting Barnabas to join their cause. Just the two Gods, Haza and the other one, were alive, as far as we know. Jeb wasn't even in human form yet, he was still in the box. So, are we to believe that once Jeb reached adulthood in 1968 that he somehow traveled back through time, threw Vicki off Widow's Hill, then was thrown off Widow's Hill by Peter, and returned to the present, somehow excaping death while Peter was hanged for his murder? Pish posh.
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I thought they meant that somehow Jeb had lived in 1795/6/7 before 1969, maybe also being born and developing into an adult overnight back then, the same way he did in 1969.
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The reason for this was that the ghost was to have been Paul Stoddard's ghost,
SPOILER
out to avenge his death caused by Jeb. Dennis Patrick was doing the movie "Joe" at this time and was unavailable. So the writers came up with the idea to use Peter Bradford's ghost instead and Jeb killing Vicky in 1796.
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So the writers came up with the idea to use Peter Bradford's ghost instead and Jeb killing Vicky in 1796.
Does that even qualify as an idea?!
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Ah ha! So that explains it! I was always wondering what happened to the huge threat of Paul Stoddard's ghost.
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I'll never forget Paul Stoddard when they opened his coffin and he was grinning at them. One of the more unintentionally hilarious scenes in the show ;D I really wish they would have given us a bit more information on Jeb killing Vicki, I mean, were Peter and her taken over by the Leviathons and forced to raise Alex/Mike/Jeb, like an 18th century version of the Todds? Or was she chosen as Jeb's wife, like Carolyn? Or was she just hanging out on widow's hill one day and Jeb came by and decided to give her a shove? They at least owed us a flashback scene or two, even if it meant getting a Vicki version 4.
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I think the kindest thing for the viewer was not to dwell on it, and get past this insane plot twist fast, without looking back. I don't think it could be made to make sense.
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Yes! I had completely forgotten about that big threat of Paul Stoddard's ghost coming back and killing Jeb. So that really DOES explain it. Vicky got offed because Dennis Patrick got another acting gig! Oh the horrors!
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Yes! I had completely forgotten about that big threat of Paul Stoddard's ghost coming back and killing Jeb. So that really DOES explain it. Vicky got offed because Dennis Patrick got another acting gig! Oh the horrors!
Well, let's be grateful. Joan Bennet could've been offered a temporary stint somewhere else and they would've had to write off her character as being buried-alive/sent-to-Wyndcliff/off-on-a-Bloomingdale's-sale-of-the-century-shopping-spree and who knows what "plot twists" they would've come up with then.
Gerard
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Well, let's be grateful. Joan Bennet could've been offered a temporary stint somewhere else and they would've had to write off her character as being buried-alive/sent-to-Wyndcliff/off-on-a-Bloomingdale's-sale-of-the-century-shopping-spree and who knows what "plot twists" they would've come up with then.
Hardly the same situation surely as Joan (who was a much bigger name than Dennis) had it written into her contract that she have time off for other projects.
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by rights victoria's fate during the leviathan storyline should have disturbed me more than it actually did.
the truth is i had already "mourned" the loss of vicki when alexandra moltke left the show a year earlier.after that victoria winters just sort of became a name.
it wasn't so much the character of vicki per se that i was so fond of but alexandra's portrayal of her.at the time that alexandra left vicki's storyline was pretty weak so it was more her screen presence i missed more than the character itself.
that said did i think that this plot development was poor writing and sloppy storytelling?yes.would i have wished a happier fate for victoria?absolutely.
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Now 1968 is fresher in my memory than Leviathans. Did they really give no clue as to how Jeb was somehow mixed up with Bradford and Victoria? Other than getting them killed somehow?
We know Leviathan people were around in 1795/6/7, whatever....because that's where Barnabas met them. Is there any hint of an implied reason that their being there at Collinwood back then led to Jeb offing PB and VW? They throw a lot of extra relationships into Bradford's past, indiscriminately. It just suddenly turned out that Eve knew him, too....
It was pretty short-sighted of Barnabas to send PB and VW mark 3 out the front door of Collinwood, assuming that since they said they were making their way out west, they would get there. No reason to think they weren't nabbed a few minutes later and taken back to gaol. Barnabas was naive about problem-solving at this point. He was new at solving other people's problems and screwed up a lot.
So now it's Barnabas' fault what happened to Peter and Vicki? I agree that Barnabas can mess up a lot when it comes to changing (or not changing) history. But I think it's unreasonable to expect him to be able to foretell what may or may not happen.
I mean, Barnabas had absolutely NO reason to think that anything was going to happen to Peter and Vicki. I mean, I'm sure he believed that they would be smart enough to avoid the authorities and keep out of sight as they left Collinsport. He had no idea that a monsterous race of super beings existed at this point.
I still don't buy Jeb existing at all in 1796, but I have started a thread where I speculated that Barnabas' second trip back to 1796 may have led the Leviathans to rise to power and screw up Peter and Vicki's happy ending. Maybe it wasn't really Jeb but another Leviathan who looked like him that did the damage. Who knows.
I have reached the point on this that I agree that it probably is best just to ignore this insane plot development and pretend it never happened.
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I think Barnabas was naive in just sending them out the front door (clueless in itself) and thinking the danger was over. Of course he wouldn't expect a Jeb, but wasn't there a manhunt for Bradford going on? I think any of us would find it difficult to be a fugitive and remain free.
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I'll bet what happened was that Vicky saw somebody who looked like a 1967 character (Susie at the coffeeshop, perhaps) and did her usual "Gosh you look like somebody I know" bit and things went downhill from there until finally she ended up dead. You can't blame Barnabas for that; it was bound to happen sometime.
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Chuckle snort. Which used to be my stand-up comedy name. I was very bad.
Hey my old pals the skulls are all here! The band's back together!!
[candle_in_skull_2] [female_skull] [skull_winks] [candle_in_skull]
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The Leviathan storyline was very unpopular with most fans. It paled in comparison to the 1897/Quentin storyline, which earned the shows highest ratings. The result was a sharp drop in viewers that continued through Parallel Time. The ratings did not begin to recover until the 1995 Flash Foward and the introduction of Judah Zachary.
Dan Curtis decided to end the Leviathan storyline months sooner than planned. Perhaps that is why Peter Bradford made a brief appearance, to fill in the episodes until he could begin the Parallel Time storyline. And remember, Dan was working on the House of Dark Shadows Movie. Ambitious as he was, Dan Curtis may have had too much on his plate.
As for the demise of Victoria Winters, her departure from the show was somewhat bitter. Alexandra Motke was already pregnant and would have to leave the show until the child was born. Then Dan found out she had secretly married! She was promptly released from the show. She wanted to return "possesed" to shed her sweet image. Dan refused and she was finally killed off.
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Then Dan found out she had secretly married! She was promptly released from the show.
Other than her 1967 marriage that was all over the society pages?
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I think Bradford during Leviathans was supposed to be Paul Stoddard, didn't someone say that here?
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I've heard it was supposed to be Paul's ghost and that it was a hasty rewrite that substitued Peter.
I've also heard that DC was in talks with AM to bring Vicky back and that what happened was intended to be the start up of a story where Vicky was rescued from 1796 and retuned to the present.
Either way it really sux what was done to Vicky and Peter, having theri happy ending broken for no real good reason.
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but wasn't there a manhunt for Bradford going on? I think any of us would find it difficult to be a fugitive and remain free.
Actually, Peter was [spoiler] free and cleared of the murder of Noah Gifford at this point, thanks to Nathan Forbes' confession that he lied he saw Peter kill Gifford. [/spoiler]
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Really? [spoiler]No one was hunting for them at all? That's a total surprise to me. Wait, they must have been after Victoria then....? But they'd faked her death. They were running from something....[/spoiler]
[female_skull]
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I think they were running to avoid Vicky beong caught alive and re-executed for witchcraft.
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[spoiler]
I think they were running to avoid Vicky beong caught alive and re-executed for witchcraft.
Really? Then perhaps that coffin in the study (that's where it was right? And why didn't they use that study more often?) would have served as a handy carrying case for reanimated, secretly on-the-lam Victoria, to allay suspicion. Maybe PB could get a nice horse-drawn hearse. If stopped, Bradford could have been taken for a nutjob who likes to take his dead girlfriend on trips to the country, though that's probably illegal too. It sounds like believable behavior for any Roger Davis character, however.
I want Vicki to look in a mirror, and get fatally confused over the fact that even though everyone there looks like people from 1967/8, SHE no longer looks like her 1968 self.... (either of them) She could have exited the stage saying, "I.... don't.... UNDER--" (collapses)[/spoiler]
[female_skull] [candle_in_skull_2] [female_skull]
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I thought that the Leviathans had attempted a similar plan back in 179whatever with Vicki as the bride instead of Carolyn. Unlike Carolyn, Vicki found out what was in store for and jumped from Widows' Hill. As punishment for messing up the plan, Jeb was put back into the box.
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Could the Leviathans actually achieved their goal if their "leader" had been female? And possessing Some basic interpersonal skills?
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Well, most certainly Jeb didn't have anything even remotely approaching interpersonal skills, so it certainly couldn't have hurt. [ghost_wink]
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In an interview attached to one of the "Collectors Edition" VHS tapes, Alexandra said Dan Curtis asked her to return to the show and she replied, "Only as a Demon" because she never liked playing the goodie-two-shoes Vickie Winters. Curtis refused and that was the end of Vickie. Perhaps he killed her off in the past to Spite Alexandra. Curtis realized the fans would only accept Alexandra in the role of the Heroin Vickie and even Alexandra admitted to this fact in the interview, but she was adamant and so was Curtis. It's all about the [ghost_mad] Fans.
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Wise viewers realize that, as much as they may tend to think they know what they want or will accept, they don't really know till they see it. Good writers create unexpected situations which viewers would never expect or even think they'd want to see, in some cases, and they sell it with great ideas, plot, and dialogue. We're not writers, so we can't imagine these great, inspired plotlines that might legitimize an idea such as Moltke as some evil creature, but it can be done. It would be worth doing specifically because it would be so strange and unexpected and challenging to the viewer.
[candle_in_skull] [bat7628] [candle_in_skull]
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Do we know for sure what the year was when Vicki met her fate? Are we sure it was 1797?
I had the impression that it happened very soon after Barnabas left them in 1796, mostly because Peter refers to her as Victoria Winters, not Victoria Bradford, or even my wife Victoria. I'm thinking it may have happened so soon that Victoria and Peter never had a chance to marry.
I'm not opposed to being wrong here, it would be nice to think Peter and Vicky had a little time togather.
For what it's worth I've read that Lara Parker's fourth book currently being written will involve bringing Victoria back to modern day Collinwood, I think it'll be even in the 2010s with Vicky meeting a new generation of Collins. I'm really looking forward to this, like many other fans I've been waiting many years for Vicky to be saved and brought home.
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Perhaps he killed her off in the past to Spite Alexandra.
Sadly, I think this happened in a couple instances on the program. [easter_sad]
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I really hate to think that Dan Curtis killed her off just to spite the actress, but unfortunately I think there's a good chance that's what happened.
I had read that KLS thought that Dan sent Maggie to Windcliff when she left DS because he thought she was crazy to leave. At least she was only had a breakdown and got sent away, so a recovery was possible.
Not that death is by an means permenent on DS. Barnabas went back and saved her once before, so she could be saved again.
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For what it's worth I've read that Lara Parker's fourth book currently being written will involve bringing Victoria back to modern day Collinwood, I think it'll be even in the 2010s with Vicky meeting a new generation of Collins. I'm really looking forward to this, like many other fans I've been waiting many years for Vicky to be saved and brought home.
QuentinCollins,
Dark Shadows author Dale Clark did bring Vicky back to modern day Collinwood in his series of superb Dark Shadows novels.
Bob
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Yes, I have the Dale Clark novels and they are very very good.
This is a sticky point for some people, but as good as they were, they were non licenced fan fiction. I consider it an alternate universe- but one I am very fond of.
Lara Parker's novels are offical licenced novels so they count more. It doesn't make them any better, but more offical. I understand that other people aren't going to agree here, and I know many fans don't consider the audios, books and comics canon. I do.