Author Topic: Discuss - Ep #0244  (Read 1822 times)

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Discuss - Ep #0244
« on: March 01, 2007, 07:32:20 AM »

IluvBarnabas

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2007, 03:15:55 PM »
I really admired Elizabeth in this episode. This is the first time she found the strength to call Jason's buff and work up the nerve to tell Carolyn the truth, the kind of man her father was, what happened to him. Unfortunately Jason undermines this by telling Carolyn what a "loving, doting father" Paul was to her, in sharp contrast to Elizabeth's saying Paul never loved or wanted Carolyn.

I have to admit I was disappointed in Carolyn in allowing herself to be taken in by Jason. She doesn't believe anything Jason says and completely hates him and distrusts him, yet she chose to believe him over her mother in this instance. I know she wants to believe her father must have had some feelling for her and one can't fault her for that, but doesn't the fact he's never came home or even tried to get in touch with her all these years say something?

Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2007, 03:48:46 PM »
This is Dark Shadows in the spring of 1967 the way it should be: one episode, one storyline.  No confusing the audience with flashy flitting between plots.  If Barnabas Collins exists, we don't know it today.

Gosh what a lot of lines Joan Bennett and Dennis Patrick had to memorize today!  And they did a fine job of it.

I've got to wonder at Carolyn.  (Unlike IluvBarnabas, I wasn't disappointed in her because I don't like her much anyway.)  In any other episode of the show, she would greet anything Jason had to say with hostile skepticism.  If he told her to take what her mother said with a grain of salt, she would tell him that he himself was a whole pillar of salt.  Today, though, for the purpose of the storyline, Carolyn is willing to listen what Jason has to say.  And today, for the purpose of the story line, after all of Carolyn's previous questions about why her mother's been putting up with Jason, she isn't willing to hear her mother out when her mother is finally willing to talk.  Hmm...a prior scene in which Carolyn told Vicky that she was sick and tired of worrying about her mother would have made it all a bit more believable.

On the other hand, I don't wonder at Elizabeth, totally botching the business of telling Carolyn.  She's been holding all this inside for 18 years, and recently Jason's been putting her under dreadful pressure, so naturally the story is going to be messy when it finally spills out.  It's a pity Elizabeth didn't write one of those letters that go on forever in Victorian novels.  "My dear Carolyn, No doubt you will be wondering why I take pen to paper for the purpose of communicating with you when we dwell under the same turreted roof," and five pages later, "And so I struck down your poor, blameless father in the prime of his young manhood."  Of course Elizabeth's first thought would be, "No, it must not be written down.  Somebody might see it!" but for heaven's sake, she's planning to call the sheriff as soon as she's spilled the beans to Carolyn.  And she would end the letter with a request that Carolyn burn it, anyway.  That's the way it is with that sort of letter.

But instead, we've got the Jason plot for several more weeks - off and on.  I'm loving it - but it is a dead end.

Offline Alondra

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2007, 04:53:58 PM »
Liz laughs at Jason's "proposal," proposal, yeah right. He had come right out and said, "We're going to get married." Then she says she'd rather die than marry him, she detests him. Can't be too good on the old ego, there Jason, can it? But what do you expect? Then he gets angry and tries to guilt trip her, you hate the man who bailed you out 18 years ago? You better believe it! She doesn't want to remember anything about that horrible night, and here he is to remind her of it every minute of the day! He goes over that night in graphic detail, how she killed Paul, really laying it on heavy and this disgusts me no end, as we know [spoiler]the jerk was lying through his teeth since Paul was not dead and he knew it![/spoiler]

He feels there is no doubt but that she'd have gone to prison, but I'm not so sure. First, she was a Collins. We've seen how Roger was able to avoid prison by use of that name and all that goes with it. Second, she did it because [spoiler]Paul was fixing to walk out the door with her and Carolyn's possessions[/spoiler] and third, it was an accident. Ok, so she'd have to prove that. Since there were no witnesses, ho would corroberate her story? Jason walked in after the deed was done. If he testified against her, it would be her word (a Collins) against his (an itinerant fisherman).

I believe Jason bluffs a lot. What's in it for him to blow the whistle on her? Say he does what he threatens to do, goes to the cops and tells them what Liz did 18 years ago. What's in it for him? Roger and Carolyn would boot his butt out the door of Collinwood so fast his head would spin and he'd have nothing but the dubious satisfaction that he'd sent a woman to prison. No, it's much better for him that he continue to milk her for all he can get. He prooves that when she goes to the phone to actually call the sheriff and he hangs it up on her. No, it's not in his best interest for this to become known.

Then he plays his trump card--Carolyn. What will Carolyn think about what you did? He'll call her in and let Liz 'fess up. Will she understand? Or will she hate her mother? This is what Liz has feared for 18 years, and now it's about to come to pass. Gak I hate Jason! I can feel the torment this poor woman is going through thanks to him, and my heart aches for her. I want to kill him!

Then he goes in to set Carolyn up for the talk with her mother. Though she has told Vicki she loathes Jason, she was polite to him in this scene. I was surprised to see her even being civil to him.

The talk between Liz and Carolyn was so frustrating to me, poor Liz hadn't really been able to plan what she would say to Carolyn and it all came out horribly. Liz loved Paul but he didn't love her, he was a terrible husband and lousy father, he never held or kissed Carolyn, he was a cruel man. Carolyn, though she has never seen daddy, has a great desire for his love and to hear negative things about him is devastating to her. She wants to believe he is a good man and cares about her though all the evidence points to the opposite, the fact that he has never come home to see her in 18 years should tell her he doesn't even care that he had a daughter.

Then dear old Jason and his lies! First he ascertains that Liz wasn't able to tell Carolyn the whole story because Carolyn ran out of the drawing room. Then she asks him if her father had ever spoken of her and what he says contradicts what Liz said. Poor Carolyn. She wanted so badly to believe her father loved her that she swallows Jason's story (though she loathes him). Of course my question here is if Paul loved Carolyn why wasn't he at home with her? Hmmm???

Later in the drawing room Liz knows she has no choice but to accept Jason's marriage proposal but she begs for time. Oh yeah, he'll give her time since there are a few legalities to work out but not much!

Did I mention I loathe him? I can't agree with Robin that she ought to go to bed with him, no it would be like bedding with a snake, a pig, since that's what he is. I'd be sick at the very thought!

Alondra

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2007, 06:09:31 PM »
The talk between Liz and Carolyn was so frustrating to me, poor Liz hadn't really been able to plan what she would say to Carolyn and it all came out horribly. Liz loved Paul but he didn't love her, he was a terrible husband and lousy father, he never held or kissed Carolyn, he was a cruel man. Carolyn, though she has never seen daddy, has a great desire for his love and to hear negative things about him is devastating to her. She wants to believe he is a good man and cares about her though all the evidence points to the opposite, the fact that he has never come home to see her in 18 years should tell her he doesn't even care that he had a daughter. ... Then she asks him if her father had ever spoken of her and what he says contradicts what Liz said. Poor Carolyn. She wanted so badly to believe her father loved her that she swallows Jason's story (though she loathes him).

Exactly! Plus it's established that some part of Carolyn wonders if Liz didn't drive her father away. It's only natural that some major part of Carolyn would want to believe Jason's lies as truths over Liz' actual truths. And it's those doubts about Liz that often causes the rift between Liz and Carolyn. Even though we know that Carolyn loves Liz, given what her life has been like (having a mother who hasn't left Collinwood and who is quite obviously harboring a huge secret, the tauntings of the children in Collinsport, etc.) her feelings are complex and divided, so it's no wonder Carolyn often acts out as she does - and it's especially no wonder that Liz is most often the prime target when Carolyn acts out. We're talking about complex emotions here, and more often than not there's very little logic when these sorts of feelings are involved, particularly when someone is telling you exactly what you've wanted to hear for so long. One may have doubts about the source - but in the moment the deep, longing desrire to hear what's being said and accept it as truth will trump almost any doubts every time.

Offline loril54

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2007, 06:18:04 PM »
Good Show, DC did save some money on the actors and only had to have two sets set up.  I wants to take JM and put him through the shredder.  He was very good at playing 2 sides in the middle.  Great writing.

I can imagine Carolyn wanting to know the best about her father, but if someone was a good friend of Jason, doesn't that say something.  Liz was really going through H***.  That evil man.  But a girl always wants to think of the best of her father, even though he might have weaknesses.

There is good chemistry between DP and JB, this reminds me of an old movie, The characterization was great.  DP makes us want to murder Jason. [spoiler]He does make a very violent exit, thanks to Barnabas, There are some things that he does know how to do. Getting rid of evil people. My favorite is still the brick wall addition to the Old House[/spoiler]
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Offline Sunny_Collins

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2007, 10:39:32 PM »
It was good to hear Liz laugh even if it was in disbelieving scorn, since we rarely hear anyone on Dark Shadows laugh outright.

It's a sad situation for Liz and Carolyn both, and Jason is loving being Liz's puppeteer.  >:(
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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2007, 03:28:43 AM »

Offline EmeraldRose

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2007, 01:32:22 AM »
This was an episode that doesn't happen too often, with only three actors covering one storyline.  Jason reminds me of J.R. Ewing on "Dallas" - a man you love to hate - but J.R. was better! [winkg]  Jason was having so much fun playing both sides to the middle between Liz and Carolyn.  It was disgusting.   [disgust]

I agree with Alondra - Liz should NOT have sex with Jason!  He's a cad, and sleeping with him would make me sick!  [madg]

I loved Liz showing her backbone and calling Jason's bluff.  [clap] Too bad she wasn't successful. [bawl] Obviously, Jason does NOT want the truth to come out!  [lpsldg]

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2007, 04:36:25 PM »
I agree with Alondra - Liz should NOT have sex with Jason!  He's a cad, and sleeping with him would make me sick!  [madg]
I tend to be oblivious about this things, but is there any indication that Jason would welcome sex with Elizabeth?  I daresay he'd do it if he were on the spot, but would he actively pursue the matter if he weren't?

On another subject...MB's post about Elizabeth and Carolyn makes a lot of sense.  But I keep coming back to the thought:  "Well, at least Carolyn could have listened  to what Elizabeth had to say."  Here's what I like about Dark Shadows - well, one of the many things I like about it: a reasonable percentage of the time, when people do the stupid things that are necessary to advance the plot, it's not because they're being gratuitously stupid, but because they're under some sort of spell, so you can still have some respect for the basic character.  Carolyn is under no spell in this episode.  She is being gratuitously stupid.

I'm waiting to be bombed with other examples of gratuitous stupidity on Dark Shadows.  I came across one just yesterday in 1897.  But still...Carolyn was extra-special stupid and cruel not to listen to her mother's story.

Offline loril54

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2007, 05:53:10 PM »
How about stupid, the fact that they ignore things that right in front of them to see.  I wonder about the things that we were never told about what they thought.  Many of them have something to do with Barnabas. Secret things happening at the Old House.
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Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2007, 09:04:59 PM »
But I keep coming back to the thought:  "Well, at least Carolyn could have listened  to what Elizabeth had to say."  Here's what I like about Dark Shadows - well, one of the many things I like about it: a reasonable percentage of the time, when people do the stupid things that are necessary to advance the plot, it's not because they're being gratuitously stupid, but because they're under some sort of spell, so you can still have some respect for the basic character.  Carolyn is under no spell in this episode.  She is being gratuitously stupid.

I don't think Carolyn was being gratuitously stupid. True, not allowing Liz to finish what she was trying to tell Carolyn can certainly appear stupid to the audience because we know what Liz wanted to tell Carolyn and why it was so important, particularly from Liz' POV. But from Carolyn's POV she greatly feared that she wouldn't be able to emotionally handle what Liz was trying to tell her - and it's a natural self-preservation reflex to protect oneself from that sort of thing. One doesn't necessarily respond rationally in situations like that. Not to mention the way things played out makes for dramatic story and great material for both actresses to work with.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2007, 09:32:09 PM »
Not to mention the way things played out makes for dramatic story and great material for both actresses to work with.
I'm all for needless drama (in Dark Shadows, not in my life), but in this case the material wasn't great enough.  I'm not convinced.  But then, I've always tended to be a listener rather than a talker, so I guess this is one situation that I just can't put myself into.

IluvBarnabas

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0244
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2007, 10:13:52 PM »
As I said I can see Carolyn wanting to believe that her father must have loved her, but the fact was it came from Jason, a man who was as trustworthy as a rattlesnake, to tell her this and that she totally buys into it really bothers me. And as has been said time and again, the hard, cold-blooded fact was her father never once tried to contact her, to inquire about her..... well it should have told her (no matter how painful it would be) that her mother had the more right of the story than Jason. Notice Jason never once offered Carolyn any explanation at all as to why Paul left her behind and never even tried to reach her if he loved her so much.